ardenne90

As I am beginning to spend more time in my car, I am noticing a lot of cost cutting. It seems like Acura used cheaper interior materials in some areas in order to keep the price down with the new 6-speed transmission. I also noticed quite a few instances where the 2012 TL lags behind the 2011 TSX (fiance's car) in interior quality and luxury appointments.

Is it just me, or are there other 2012 TL owners noticing the same thing? I would love to hear what you guys (and gals) think.

acurator99

You will also notice that there is no foot space for rear passengers to slide their feet under the front seats especially for tall people.
Compromising on materials quality is the best way for a car company to keep the price tag similar to the previous year.
Welcome to reality.

VTEC Racer

First of all, congrats on the new car!

Can you go a bit more in depth and tell us specific details?

ardenne90

1. Lots of cheap looking hard plastic on the door panels.
2. No entry lights on the rear passenger door, unlike 2011 TSX.
3. The pockets on either side of the lower dash have hard plastic interior, unlike the 2011 TSX which has velvet lining.
4. No illumination lights in the driver's foot-well, unlike the 2011 TSX which has really cool blue lights
5. The moon-roof cover is really cheap; hard plastic covered with cloth. The 2011 TSX has padding and my 2006 TL was also better
6. No coin holders
7. No chrome inserts on the door handles. I know that the 2009-11 had chrome on steroids, but unlike some of the other chrome accents these added a touch of class to the car.

I think a $45K car should never compromise on interior materials. It's even worse when the lower end TSX appears to have better quality interior materials. Am I being too picky, or am I on to something here?

ardenne90

Thank you; please see my other post.

Stew4HD

Eh? Keep prices down? $40-50k for the car isn't "low priced"

I came out of a 3G TL. I see roughly the very same quality inside and out, just as much plastic.

As for TSX comparison, maybe because the TSX is also the Honda Accord elsewhere in the world, they spruced it up to make is t an Acura?

With or without velvet, I like that little pouch! I can stash my wallet there during trips!

Ruby

Aren't you these things you should've noticed before you bought the car?

FM745

This thread should be renamed "4th gen cost cutting". The smae things are true for the 2009-2011 models.

I cam from a 3rd gen TL, and notice some cost cutting, and some improvements. None of which were deal-breakers for most of us that still went ahead and bought the TL (I don't think anyone went to test drive the TL and walked out thinking "No way am I buying that car, no coin holders"). So, in the interest of fair balance:

Cost cutting observations/things I miss from 3rd gen:
-that second compartment in the center console (in front of the shifter)
-the larger upper storage tray under the front center armrest (the 4th gen has the small slide out tray)
-the 3rd gen center armrest slid forward
-lower door panels do have a cheap plastic look to them

Things I like better on the 4g:
-true sunglass holder/compartment
-I like that the e-brake is closer to the driver side. The 3rd gen had it closer to the passenger side, which is ok when my wife sitting is there, but made for awkward incidental contact when there is a dude sitting there
- two extra compartments on either side of the center console (perfect for sunglasses . . . umm . . a second emergency pair)
-MID buttons on the steering wheel (as opposed to on the dashboard in the 3rd gen)
-unintegrated fog lights (I had a 2004 TL, it was changed for the 2007-8 TL)
-side blinkers on the side mirrors (I had a 2004 TL . . " " )

Any others?

ostrich

Actually, if you compare it to the 09-11 TL's there are already improvements on some of these items!

Every car these days has signs of cost cutting. If you look at MB, BMW, Audi etc. they all have bits and pieces on the inside that show cost-cutting.

Enjoy the new car - it's a great ride!

chayos00

don't forget to mention they got rid of the bi-xenon headlights which my 07 has. I really was hummed about that fact when we test drove the new 2012 model yesterday.


gonna have to look into aftermarket stereo options before I make my final decision on the car. plus I feel as if the 07 felt and looked sportier.

Beeper27

my 09 has foot well lighting. I drilled out the covers as shown in the DIY to make it stand out more. It is blue LED.

ardenne90

Very strange question. It goes without saying that no car is ever perfect. So buying a car does not preclude the owner from critiquing the little things. I obviously bought the car because of more important considerations: overall value, reliability, handling of SH-AWD, exterior styling, etc. My previous car was a 3G TL and we also have a 2011 TSX in the stable. So we are obviously big fans of the Acura brand. However, I am not one of those Acura owners who subscribe to the notion that Acura can do no wrong.

ardenne90

Thanks for the thoughtful and instructive feedback. This forum works well when people's comments actually add value to the discussion.

BLEXV6

My Wifes 09 TL does have the rear door lights as well and my 10 TL does not. My TL has the blue lighting in the footwell. Surely theyn did not remove this for 12. I suggest you check again as it is a very dim light which is not overly noticeable.

I do think the aluminum trim on the dashboard in the 12 is cheaper looking. But otherwise it seemed the same as my 10, based on what I saw at the dealer.

TechnoCat

I agree with you. My previous (prior to 2010 TL SH-AWD) and current (2011 S4, post 2010 TL SH-AWD) were much nicer than the TL in those ways (excepting coin holders. Parking meters don't even take coins here.) Acura skimped on a lot. What they put in is above-average (for the MSRP) performance and gadgets, but at the cost of luxury trimmings.

TechnoCat

It's true that my Audi had some cost-cutting compared to my previous one. Specifically, the electrically-folding mirrors and the underseat drawers are gone. But it's added a lot too. When I bought my 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD (which I did in a hurry, long story, but I only had like three days to replace my A4Q 3.0 6MT and Audi no longer offered an A4 6-cylinder), I expected it to be luxury- and AWD-competitive with the Audis. It's not. The 2010 TL SH-AWD 6MT is a fantastic large sports-sedan, but a terrible luxury car and, despite the SH-AWD, not that great on ice/snow compared to an Audi.

The TL is a great ride, but as a sports car. Audi (and BMW) do luxury and and composed-ride (not too jittery) far better.

saturno_v

It is interesting that you never qualify what ar ethe TL shortcomings and why it makes such "terrible" luxury car....

The only comments I heard about the SH-AWD in snow is that it works very well....in my limited experience (Northwest) I can confirm that.

If you want a soft puffy ride get a Benz or, as you did, the Audi.....The TL is a sport sedan as you stated...the 335 and the 535 are not more comfortable or composed than my TL

winstrolvtec

Many of us who were 3G owners know what you mean but still I find the 4G better in this regard overall. The more important areas have upgraded, the non have regressed, which can be considered a trade off at worst. It makes the car seem more upmarket at first glance or in initial impressions, a few minutes go by and you notice the inconspicuous areas and start to realize there is a lot of supplementing. As a side benfit, the interior has better build quality, panels have added rigitidy, and are less prone to rattles vs the 3G.

The reason you were asked if you had noticed prior to purchasing is probably best summed up with the question of, do you feel based on the overall observation of the vehicle taking everything into consideration and the price in which you paid, that Acura has done wrong or wrong by you?

As you said no car is perfect and they are all made for some degree of a niche market within a larger one so they tend to stress different priorities. With more money thrown at a car, it can always be better but that is if it's consumers are willing to pay for it. We often hear that the car should not have certain cheap touches in this price range and vs it's competitive set. That is simply not true when you take everything into consideration and not focus on just one select area of comparison.

At $46k you can find cars that are slightly better finished in this regard but how large of a car are they? Are they loaded at that price point? Do they have 300+ hp? How about torque vectoring AWD included? Acura resale, safety, and reliability? Double wishbone or struts? By no means am I picking on you, I just want to get that point across. You really have to look at the entire package and factor in it's cost and affordibility. You have no idea how many come here complain about the TL being lacking for $36k-$46k and then the same folks go buy cars costing $60k-$70k and really get little more for that extra money, yet the TL is the one lacking.

Unique to Acura, Lexus and Cadillac, they have larger cars positioned next to their mid levels in the TL, CTS, and ES and they have always cannabalized the sales of the one positioned higher up. These cars have to hold back to a degree to not make this an even bigger issue, this is especially the case for the TL being the most similar to next one up than the rest. The upside is you can get a more generic version of the STS, RL, and GS with similar sizes, engine and tranny (in some cases), and a majority of the features and content for a much cheaper price.

vinnier6

iTrader: (1)

i cant imagine anything about the tsx being better then the tl...

winstrolvtec

Also never considering the shortcomings of the S4 as a $60k luxury car which is far worse and he has specified in the past but most just laughed at how unobjective and biased they were.

They definately do luxury different and if that is what you prefer, awesome. More composed over smaller bumps and surfaces that is until you hit the big stuff where the TL is still very neutral and the Germans are unsettling, overly springy and bouncy.

Another example of how difference in compenents and engineering, with the Acura's suspension travel generally being longer and the German's usually shorter, affects one's perception of what is luxury.

I could fart in an Audi and also in an Acura and because they might smell a little different, you would suggest it's because the Audi is the real luxury car.

ardenne90

You obviously did not bother to read the title of the thread and instead sought to fixate on the passing references to some 2011 TSX materials. Why waste time and intellectual capital posting to a dumb thread? Beats me!

Steven Bell

iTrader: (2)

Based upon your observations, it sounds like Acura did some cost cutting in the interior in lieu of technology....


2011 National AcuraZine Meet-Kansas City-June 12, 2011-Details Here!


.

TechnoCat

I have in the past, but it really is beating a dead horse to Acura zealots in an Acura forum. (And that is to be expected. The same bias would happen in any forum.) For a main example here, read up a few messages where Winslo yet again excretes his forumarrhea in our unfortunate direction, usually including:

1. Racing to the defense of the TL against any thing else.
2. Making the most bizarre excuses for doing so... such as that the TL is a BMW 5-series competitor due to size, or that having feature X at price Y is far better than having a well integrated or well-finished feature X at a higher price... and in fact can be counted on to ignore any concept of finish or integration.
3. And complaining endlessly if his name is pre-emptively mentioned, which he calls being "called out." Even though one could get rich placing bets on when he would pop up.

His approach does accomplish his goal of stifling any views he considers dissenting. And has the side-effect that he mostly only hears views like his, reinforcing his world-view, so he believes even more so that his is the voice of reason.

I have previously documented my view of the TL's luxury shortcomings. Most of them would be inexpensive for Acura to fix, but we do run into a challenge that there is no acceptable definition of "luxury". Winslo consider that to be a feature count, I consider it to mean how well they are done.
For people who haven't experience Quattro or Subaru's AWD, SH-AWD in snow or on ice is amazing. For those of us accustommed to Quattro or Suby (and not easily snowed by internet videos, having personally experienced them), SH-AWD is a step down in winter conditions. Not a huge one, but down. But SH-AWD easily beats the Mercedes, Volvo, etc. implementations in those same conditions. In fairness, Acura doesn't claim SH-AWD is about winter; it's about superior dry handling. And that it does very well. Better than Suby, and equal with my rather pricey S4 with the active sport diff.

vinnier6

iTrader: (1)

your special....go back to a tsx, your wallet will be happier

saturno_v

I can respond only for myself...I do not defend the TL at "all cost'...it is just an automobile for crying out loud.
But sometimes I heard really unsubstantiated complains




I even posted the official Acura document where it states that the TL competed with the A4/3 Series and the entry level 5 Series/A6.....is not an Acura forum imagination but a fact, a marketing/technical choice on Acura side.....myself I did cross-shop with a 535i

Sorry but part of that statement is convenient.....features MAKE luxury too...otherwise people would order barebone cars which clearly does not happen..folks dump sometimes half of the price of the car (especially with German brands) on options and features ...so with all due respect that statement is frankly hogwash.

However you are right....integration is important...I came back last week from Europe where I rented an E Class CDI for 3 weeks...I found the "Comand" (the name Mercedes gives to its tech package) rather obtuse and annoying....I was really craving my TL...BMW iDrive is horrible.....the Aston Martin Rapide navigation system and command ergonomics are lacking...that does not make these cars not luxurious.

Fit and finish....I recognize the German brands use of more luxurious materials in some details (the ones easy to spot).....but they do skimp on other areas (less visible and intuitive)......on balance the 5 series has more luxurious finishing compared to the TL (not the fit.....just the finishing) the A4/S4?? Not so much....on the Audis, lack of vertical door handles, cheaper center stack between the two seats, simplified seat contouring, trunk details, nets in the back of the seats, etc...

I'm not in the business of convincing other people...you want to think that the S4 is more luxurious?? I'm glad for you and that you found your ideal car.

In my house we are longtime Subaru customers...my wife is at his fourth (a WRX STI we got in December), his family own Subarus, etc....
Please define where the SH-AWD would be slightly inferior......yes it is not a hardcore 4WD system, nor is the BMW xDrive.....but for a sedan/SUV general use (just better traction on snowy roads) is on par with anything else....if I need a 4WD for more serious off road activities I would get something else....and not an Audi....a vehicle with real diff locking capabilities, lower gears, etc...

I agree that internet videos are what they are...however it seems that the popular ones where Audi is in trouble compared especially with the BMW xDrive (seems like BMW has something to prove recently on that....) and not the other way around....then you have the official Acura winter video which show an Audi Q7 not able to clear a 20% ramp with an entire side of the car on ice where and Acura MDX clears a 30% grade in the same conditions....marketing gymnics?? Maybe


Here is the famous video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YidkaqlW9ns

And here the Motortrend video at the Acura Winter Testing Facilities in Baudette Minnesota and the SH-AWD testing.....pretty harsh...so SH-AWD is not exactly designed only for handling prowess....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGxEZ60E-nQ

ardenne90

Please do yourself a favor: look at my signature and read the thread with pics of my car (2012 SH-AWD w/Advance Comes Home). Then try a more informed response. People like you are incapable of engaging in enlightened discourse. Just a lot of hot air and no substance.

saturno_v

TechnoCat

To get some perspective and get you on the same page of what I consider not quite luxurious or premium automobile let me give you an example of a car I had the chance of getting around with some time ago which on paper specs is comparable to the TL SH-AWD and the S4 or the 535 xDrive but it is definitely not in real life...the Ford Taurus SHO AWD.....it is even bigger than the TL but it boasts a big very modern direct fuel injection dual turbocharged V6 3.5 liter engine with almost 370 horses (the best thing of that car).

As soon as you sit on it the ergonomics are not quite right....the leather of the seats is not very appealing....fit is not that bad but there are little cheap details scattered everywhere.

The car has impressive straight line acceleration considering the size and weight....it is rather quiet and very roomy but here and there you can hear just a hint of a rattle (a brand new car) and some wind noise even at low speed.
It has a 6 speed transmission but shifting can be abrupt at times.
Ford engineers opted for a rather stiff ride but lacking dual stage dampers you feel even a little imperfection on the road.....it would be acceptable if the car had a very distinct sporty spirit but steering is rather vague....it has no defined personality.

The McPherson front strut system cannot compete in precision with a Double Wishbone setup and you can feel that in spades....the only one that almost made the miracle are the BMW engineers and some Nissan models.

The simple Haldex AWD system is not very quick in shifting power around and in hard acceleration is easy to make your tires squeal even in the best grip conditions.
The nail in the coffin were the jelloish brakes.

Here you go.....a car that on paper can compete with some really fine machinery but fail to deliver that premium experience.....it was fun on a straight line though and fuel economy was very good considering the size and performance...

winstrolvtec

Excuses, excuses. It's not racing to the defense when as others have said, the claims are unsubstantiated or when they exist for both sides yet you only consider it for the one. With you it's always a personal, highly subjective take on it that you then attempt to generalize as if everyone feels and thinks the same or that they should and it doesn't work that way. You put up one of your lists of shortcomings which is not the issue all in itself, your issues with the car are your issues, you're entitled to them but it's the context as if everyone has those same experiences and then the counter to those points and your answers with comments like "I didn't realize that was somehow inferior or was considered luxury", or "I hadn't noticed, not important to me", or "True, the S4 doesn't have that but I could never get it to work on the TL".

I don't disagree with a lot of those points, the issue is you attempt to list everything you pefer or are accustomed to in the Audi as luxury. Basically defining what luxury is to you and make it up as you go along which is fine but when someone else does so for the TL and counters your points in the same way, you attempt to suggest that what they determine to be luxury or luxury associated can't be or is not because you don't think so. If you don't find that to be hypocritical, then this stuff is done on purpose.

The 5 series comparisons are not done soley by me and I didn't even start them. Take a look at the 2012 reviews post, every other one mentions the 5 series, etc along side the TL. There is a new post where a two time 5 series owner is now looking to get into a TL, suggesting the 3 series is not the right comparison. That's right a 5 series owner, there are a couple of others around here too who have said the same thing. We also have plenty of other members who have done that kind of cross shopping. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to grasp, they are both luxury mid sized sedans and when you take away the differences of luxury and prices, they have a lot in common and match up nicely when configured closely.

I don't ignore the concept of integration or finshed, it's just that everyone can have a varying idea of what that is. Likewise, you fail to consider areas of the TL that have better integration and finish as well. You suggest that this is better integrated, that better finished and is why it is reflected in the cost but don't also deduct for evey area of that where the TL excels instead. It's just like the luxury comparisons, you fail to acknowledge that the same argument can be made the other way as well.

Looks like another post in which I am not specifically engaged in or that has very little to do with me anyway, has my name being brought up by you again. I don't really care but if you have something to say, say it and don't hide behind other posts or discussions. When I am adressing you or your posts, I do just that. For some reason you don't, notice that the post this is in response to does not address me, yet that doesn't stop you from invloving me. Even if our discussions are similar, a discussion with Saturno or anyone else and what they say or comment on has little to do with me or one of our discussions. You will just have to have that discussion with them as well. LOL @ Winslo though, I don't where you got that from, it genuinely gives me a chuckle.

Also, although your definition of luxury and mine may vary, features content is only but one aspect of many that I consider luxury to be, of course you would put that in a post having nothing to do with me to make it seem as though your view exceeds mine and I that have no relevance to an S4 or TL discussion but that's only because you must not like what you hear or the points I make when we do.

- Winslo

Shellyduchsk8s

Links? Pictures? Thanks!

vinnier6

iTrader: (1)

talk about hot air....i just about fell asleep trying to read your BIG words....i cant imagine any women not falling asleep trying to have a conversation with you....you probably smoke a pipe and drink scotch...

Hamma Tyme

Now that comment wasn't called for. So what is wrong with a pipe, scotch and a few women? This site is not about personal attacks, Vinny. You must have a better come back then that...right???

dethred

TechnoTroll is still at it?

Buddy, at first you seemed like you were just excited at having bought a new car... but now you've basically become a huge troll. I have trouble finding a single post of yours that doesn't mention Audi or your S4. You might think we're overly defensive of our cars, but I believe its just that we quite frankly don't give a damn about yours.

Will your car have 90% of its baseline horsepower in a couple years without an engine tear-down?

When speaking of quality in reference to a vehicle, does "initial quality" matter? If so, why is Audi tied with Chevrolet?

Do you think the Audi and BMW forums are littered with stories of failed transmissions, engines, electrical systems just out of coincidence?

All I read from you are subjective posts about how Audis are better cars than Acura. You fail to forget a few things. Some of us want a dependable, sporty sedan at a reasonable price. If you want to discuss specifics, I am pretty sure a reasonable argument could be made to show that value for money, reliability, quality, and service are probably notably better for Acura owners.

Your car is certainly going to have a few benefits over a TL, just like the TL will have a few benefits over an S4. I can think of a few circumstance in which a Hyundai Sonata would be a better car than a Ferrari. If I only cared about a comfortable, reliable, inexpensive car to transport a child in the back seat then a Hyundai Sonata would be a better car in my eyes.

In short, if you look through the narrow lens of what your car is good at, and compare it with another car, you have a good chance of convincing yourself that your car is definitively better.

ardenne90

The findings from a recent demographic study of ACURA TL buyers concluded that they tend to be highly educated. But I guess like every trend one can expect to have the statistical outliers (noise). Our "learned friend", VINNIE, is certainly prima facie evidence of this. But why am I surprised? This kind of behavior is expected when a checkers player shows up at a chess game. The degree of ignorance and intellectual incompetence are so palpable, one can cut them with a knife. I am done arguing with this knuckle-crawling Neanderthal and would like to get back to the subject matter of this thread. Game, Set, Match!

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

Folks, let's get this thread back on topic and quit the personal attacks. Thanks.

halls120

I've had my 2011 SHAWD with MT for two months now, and yes, in some respects, Acura has cut back on interior appointments compared to my 04 TL. In addition to the other things perviously mentioned, the only thing that I really don't care for is that the carpets are really cheap looking (and feeling) compared to the 04.

that said, the seats are much better, the electronics are much better, the engine is better, and the handling provided by AWD is simply outstanding.

For me, I'd rather have the performance upgrades of the 11 than the nicer interior touches of the 04. I bought the car to have fun driving it, not admiring its luxury appointments. If I wanted the latter, I'd have bought a Lexus.

JM2010 SH-AWD

^^ Agree on the carpets and mats and with your comments generally. I came from a '92 Legend Coupe, which I bought new. The carpets and mats were actually plush in that car.

Acura sent me a survey and about the only things I noted were these and the bottom of the door panels. But that said, the TL would blow away the older Acuras in terms of performance, comfort and tech.

I'm sure part of it was weight savings, but putting the nicer carpeting and mats back in would make the car about perfect from my perspective.

(I just had a long drive in it through heavy rain. The car feels so planted and secure it's almost unnatural).

ParaSurfer1979

I have a question. Is are the silver interior parts in the 4th gen TL real metal like on the dash and sides of the a/c and stereo controls of the 3rd gen? If not then thats the largest cost cutting.

Bearcat94

vinnier: Stop.

KillerG

unless its a rolls royce phantom every car shows signs of cost cutting.

period.

MyT6MT

Agree! Is life that boring for you that you have to spew your bile, still, after all this time?

I haven't been on AZ in a while and you are still going on about going from a TL to an S4, probably taking a bath in the process and all because of a head rest and other peoples opinions. It sounds to me like you are still trying to justify this dumb financial move to yourself. You yourself called the S4 overpriced in a post prior to dumping your TL after all.

To me the problem you had with the TL is you let what other people/critics had to say about the TL form your opinion about the car instead of you forming one of your own. You may not agree with this statement but if you read your post history this is obvious from the start. It's like you're plagiarizing the critics.

We all know you were/are an Audi fan boy before you got your TL. So you didn't like it for whatever reason. Get a grip and move on with you life already!