this is me

Hello everyone,
Long time member here but went off the radar for several years to focus on college and career.
I still have my original first car that was bought in Apr of 2002. The 03 TL-S now have 140K miles with original transmission. Though, I feel like the tranny is on its way out with occasional slip on 1st and 2nd gear. It does not happen all that frequent and I can't duplicate it. I want to trade this in before it completely calls it quit. We do have a 2010 TL in the family and it's quite nice.

The vehicle that I'm really interested in is the 2013 Lexus GS350 AWD F-Sport. However, the 2012 SH-AWD TL is quite stunning as well and it's about $15K cheaper! Obviously, I haven't owned a Lexus and not really sure if it's worth the $15K premium. Anyone with experience with both manufactures? Are Lexus more reliable? I feel like I can get more out of my current 03 TL-S if it's not for the tranny. It's a 10 year-old car but the body and paint is still shiny and can compete with any new car on the road with its look. I just feel like the mechanical parts from Acura can be a little better.

potmilkz

for 15k, id buy the tl.

but as a person that previously had owned a gs, they are great cars.

lets see how people chime on on their awd systems

amer

I am also looking into 2013 Lexus GS awd but not F sport to much money for F sport, but i think it will be too much money to lease it because its more money in general the TL. and they don't have good program on a GS if u look at there site now for current GS ... TL SH AWD with Tech most likely i will go with... but i think Lexus will be 600+ plus to lease with 12k and 36 month..... with sign and drive no money down.... and TL i can get 520 just to sign papers and drive off

Glashub

I saw the 2013 at the LA auto show. Take a good look at the grill and front end. I hated it. You might like it but really take a long look at the car to be sure.

Steven Bell

iTrader: (2)

I've always felt that pound for pound, dollar for dollar, the TL is the best value available.

Thamac15

as a current owner of lexus and acura i will say that the smoothness, extreme comfortability, and quiet ride that lexus offers is better than any luxury car i've driven. Those cars were the affordable luxury cars that is. 3 series, a4, c class, g37, and my tl. I bought my wife a brand new 10 es350 a month before i bought my tl. When i'm in her car i feel like i'm driving on air, the car just molds to the surface with very little noticeability of any road degradation with exception to giant potholes of course. i literally can't hear anyone talking to me with the windows up,...even when they start to raise their voice. outside noise just doesn't penetrate very well to the interior. Great power and engine noise is almost silence. it was very competitive price wise with it fully loaded at 37k(bought at end of model year) BUT the sporty TL was my choice for me. i just loved the style both exterior and interior, comfort is great, outside noise is way too loud for my taste(sound deadening is in the future for me), the way the tl just pushed you through corners at any speed without having that noticeable and irritating feeling like the car is going to tip over is just fantastic for me. Fully loaded it was a little more than the es350 but not much.

I had driven a used 2009 gs350 and LOVED LOVED LOVED it! I wanted to take it home as soon as i stepped on the accelerator. The power, comfort, interior silence, won me over. UNTIL I noticed the mileage,...the salesman had said it only had 12k on it but in reality(this man was most certainly not here) it had a whopping 69K! how do you do that in just over a year??? lol was very dissapointed but i had to decline. I couldn't afford a brand new one and i could not find a decently priced gs350 with low mileage. When my wife graduates pharmacy school in 2 years I will most likely be in the market again but for a new one, but who knows what the 5th gen TL will offer.

Oh and your reliability question,..i've owned nothing but toyota and hondas and reliability would be just the same in my experience,....as long as you take care of the car then you're good.

saturno_v

The GS is a gorgeaous midsize luxury sedan, I really loved the previous generation, the new one I still have to "digest it" completely.

The GS is definitely more tuned for comfort and luxury compared to the TL and the Acura AWD system is definitely sportier and more advanced (it is Torque Vectoring while the Lexus isn't as far as I know, even in the new iteration).

You cannot go wrong with either....


BEAR-AvHistory, g37guy01 where are you??!!! Here is another "non-existant" car shopper for you, that look at cars with a 15K gap between them!!!

ostrich

I totally agree - the 2013 GS has an absolutely horrendous front end!!!

Edward'TLS

THIS-IS-ME, get rid of your 2G TL ASAP. The tranny problem will only get worse. If crippled, the trade-in value of your 2G will leave your with very little leftover after having to pay for a replacement tranny.

With my now-sold 2G TL, the tranny first started off with occasion hiccups, then lost 3rd gear completely in just a month's time.

I agree with Ostrich. I think the 2013 GS front end looks even worse than the Power Plenum front end on the 2G pre-MMC TL.

winstrolvtec

This made me laugh and I was thinking the same thing but didn't want to say anything. And besides the large price gap, the GS is supposed to be a totally different "class" of car. How can one possibly compare them? That's like comparing an Accord and an S class.

....

Just teasing guys, we understand we're you're coming from, only lightening the mood.

Hamma Tyme

As Sonny said in the movie, A Bronx Tale, "Dump her and dump her fast!" If the tranny is slipping on occasion now, it will blow VERY soon!

g37guy01

I wasn't going to say anything, but since you rallied the troops, I think the GS is a different class of car with a justified $15K price differential.

Now are you trying to prove that 2 people in the world shop with a $15K difference? As I said previously the world is a very big place, and people do all sorts of things. But I stand by my original assertion, most people if they pay cash for a car or finance the $15K is a big chunk of change. Leasing is another matter where if you put down a lot and take low miles, like 8000 you can get a low monthly payment.

I would get the Lexus myself. No contest.

compewterbleu

The new GS looks like a cross breed between a catfish, corolla, and Mitsubishi lancer...it's not only a different class of car, but bred as well.

this is me

Guys! I'm well aware of the price difference and the class. So the RL is a more comparable to the GS because of the price? However, I don't see anything in the RL that justify the $12K premium over the TL-SH-AWD.

this is me

Really? Are you kidding me? Accord to an S class?
Is the GS really that much better than the TL SH-AWD? I think you just insult all our TL SH-AWD drivers here.

this is me

Thanks guys! I'm trying to get rid of it as fast as I can but I don't want to just buy any car in the market. I know I don't have much time left with this tranny. It just a matter of time.
The GS-Fsport is suppose to hit dealer by mid February. I hope the tranny will at least hold me up til then.

this is me

Yes, the GS will cost more to lease than the TL for sure. But comparing to the outgoing GS model, the new GS won't be much of a difference at all if any. In fact, from what I've read on the Lexus forum, it supposed to have better residual value over the leasing term so it could be cheaper than the outgoing GS model.
My Acura dealer is offering $449/month for TL SH-AWD w/Tech for 36month, 10kmiles, ~$1500 down. Not sure what the Lexus want for their GS model.
However, I'm interested in buying and plan on keeping it for long term.

Thanks for your inputs. Besides the transmission of my current 03 TL-S, I think it's pretty reliable as well. But I just thought Honda/Acura can do a little better than that. This is why I'm looking at Lexus. Not to say Toyota/Lexus don't have their own sets of problem though but I don't recall reading Lexus having problems left and right. If you go to the 2nd gen TL forum, all you see is pretty much transmission....

Thanks for the inputs. I've always liked the GS too. And the TL ride is not that comfortable. Even with the new 2010 TL we have, I feel every little bumps and crack on the road.

I have to do 350+ miles(one-way) trip every month so I want something comfortable to drive with. This is one of the reasons I'm looking at the more comfortable and less noisy tune of the Lexus.

compewterbleu

I know what it looks like now, remember Jeepers Creepers!

Yeah, same grille!!

this is me

No, it's more like this. But I like it!c

under9hell

If money is not a problem I would pick the GS. A comfortable ride with sporty look.

saturno_v

Come on man...only two people??!! At least 6 or 7 TL owners (me, Docboy, Winstrolvtec, etc..) that seriously did look at the 5 Series, one 528 owner (AEmedic) that decided to go TL, one 3rd gen TL owner (Hamma Tyme) that decided to go 5 Series because he simply did not like the look of the 4th gen TL and now this gentleman undecided between a GS and a TL...in this section of the forum alone!!!

Lease or buy it does not matter...the same person that may buy the Acura may decide to lease the Lexus or the Bimmer (and it is a reality, there are brands that are much more leased than others) this does not change their ability to put their buns in cars with appreciable differences in their MSRP....


While I definitely believe the GS is more refined on the luxury side, you keep saying "no context" when you actually never drove a TL SH-AWD.....I think you could say that at least if you drove the damn thing at least once!!! .....

compewterbleu

Yikes! Too busy, far to many styling trends happening here...IMO

g37guy01

The problem is I don't like the car enough to go out of my way to drive it. I don't the exterior styling, interior styling or interior erogonomics. I will drive it. Acura hasn't made the car very attractive to me.

That said, I do not think a sample of 5 out of all of the BMWs and Acuras sold represent anything other than junk statistics. You can make the leap that people cross-shop within $15/$20K/$25K at the mid-range $40K sedan level as a common occurence. I don't buy it.

And to the OP, no matter what decision you make, you made the right one.

Glashub

Pictures don't do justice to how ugly and ungainly it looks in person. IMO the car looks like a Camery with an outlanding front glued on.

saturno_v

As I said over and over, is not very common but not that uncommon either and I gave you ton of examples....then, obviously, you can remain of your own opinion....

Appreciable variability in price on all items people consider to buy (not only cars) it is a fact of life that anyone can recognize......when shopping for an appliance, clothing, housing, electronics, anything....


I suspect that, without realizing it, you make this more of a badge issue than anything else....

It's perfectly ok not liking something but you cannot pontificate a "non context" judgment about something you do not know....

For example, I would not buy a Genesis, I do not like the style, inside and out (just too bland for me) and the too soft ride but this does not prevent me to recognize how good of a car is at its price point......even if does not meet my needs/wants.


I drove the 5.0 R-Spec to see if the 2012 refresh and the R-Spec cure would make the car more appealing to me in the future...it did not but it is a very impressive automobile for the money.....

this is me

I was in the NE Auto Show last night specifically to check the 2013 GS out. It was disappointing because they do not have any on the show floor except one Hybrid model on the stage that no one can get to. The styling looks good IMO.
I also looked at the 535Xi and the E350. I do like both of these cars but don't have to keep up with the maintenance cost in the long run. I'm looking for something in the mid $50k-$60K to keep for long term(8years+). Don't like Inifiniti and Acura RL is too similar to the TL. So this is why I'm left with the GS350 and TL SH-AWD. The TL price-performance/feature is very attracting. However, I do feel the interior materials is not quite as nice as the luxury vehicle I've seen. The TL SH-AWD fuel economy is also worst than the GS, 5 series, and E series.

saturno_v

This is me

The 2012 TL SH-AWD automatic may have a bit softened ride compared to your 2010....keep in mind that with the TL SH-AWD you trade the soft ride of the Lexus with amazing road manners and handling abilities (for the size)....I personally prefer a sportier ride and the TL is at the top of the game in its size segment for handling...
I find the style of the TL unique (for me in a very positive way) inside and out, it really stands out....I absolutely love it but, hey, I'm biased, I own a TL SH-AWD 6 speed manual.
I agree on the RL, I find the style a bit too ordinary (including the cabin) and the ride a bit too soft for my taste....

You may want to look at the Infiniti M......really beautiful car and with outstanding gorgeaous interior...much more "luxury feeling", "important" than anything else in the segment, BMW and Audi included IMHO....very neutral balance with the steering rear axle....a very nice feature...


If you do not care about the badge and you like a puffy ride, you should look at the Hyundai Genesis too.....in R-Spec form you get a 430 HP RWD sedan, fully loaded for 46K which leave you a bunch of cash left in your budget....what about a nice vacation??? eheheh

g37guy01

It may be a badge issue, and I never claimed to be unbiased. But it's my money. But if it's a badge issue, it relates to BMW, Lexus, Bentley, Ferrari, Maserati, etc. So it's just not one badge.

I can't recommend any car where that I don't feel like I would want to own it for any reason. I can recognize technical acheivements, but that doesn't automatically put it to the head of the class.

There are a slew of reasons the GS is more expensive than the TL, whether you believe they are worth the premium is another matter altogether. While I don't know the sales figures the car is selling, so not everybody thinks the TL is the GS - 15K. So out of this mythical population that cross shopped the TL with the GS and TL with the 5 series, TL obviously lost some sales.

saturno_v

GS sales have been in the crapper for quite some time....undeservedly so, if you ask me....the last generation is a gorgeaous, I would say, fabolous sedan, impeccably built.
TL sales are miles ahead.....in 2010 the GS sold 7000 vs 34.000 for the TL.....

Do I think the GS is worth 15K more than the TL?? Heck yes, just look at the level of the fit and finish and the quietness when you ride in one.......there is more value, IMHO, in the TL-GS price gap than in the TL-5 Series gap....

Do not forget that one of the reasons the TL is so competitively priced for its size is the fact that shares its platform and engine with the Accord, a car sold in very high numbers which helps reduce development costs.....GS, A6, 5 Series, G, M and so on are all dedicated platforms....

winstrolvtec

Actually I was kidding, the red text denotes sarcasm. I'm glad you responded in the manner that you did, although maybe you are also in on the joke, I really can't tell. A few of us, myself, Saturno, and some others, seem to constantly be engaging in a heavy discussion about what the TL realistically compares to, how effectively, and what type of buyers shop the TL and against what.

I think you proved our point where others seem to disagree. Personally I see it the way you do and shopped my TL against that class of car. Some don't think it is warranted, as you said there is a price difference and class gap but it is still close enough in my mind and the price gap is fairly normal in cross shopping that range of cars anyway.

saturno_v

Interestingly enough those that don't think it is warranted at all are, coincidentally, the ones that just do not like the TL.....it may be that they just dislike the car??
Like our friends g37guy01 and cp3117 that do not even own Acuras as far as I can recall but they are happy posters in the specific 4th gen TL section of the forum.....

Shoot2Thrill

Badge issue - your money, your depreciation, esteem boost payments. CASH IS KING! 15K is 20K easily in 5 years. TL certainly made more sales comparing value to more expensive cars than it ever lost.

g37guy01

I would think Acura would be interested in my opinion as to why I chose other cars first. Maybe if they get enough of a clue they can sell more than 34,000 cars in one year.

winstrolvtec

There does appear to be a common denominator there and to me, a lot of the points that come from that direction seem to be lacking in objectivity as I have alluded to many times in the past but as we say this, they will probably say that we would compare our TL to anything just the same and in order to make ourselves feel better or prouder but the reality is that those types of comparisons existed before and that is in large part why we even own the car in the first place.

For me, the kicker is and will continue to be how certain individuals always find the right time to chime in and knock Acura or the TL but never have anything positive to say either.

winstrolvtec

Then again they may also feel they did something right because you are as frequent here (and more) as some of the members who actually own the car but don't take that the wrong way and anyone is as welcome here as anybody else, I'm just stating the obvious.

g37guy01

Actuallly a lot of poster are fairly neutral and want the best for our money and the best value. Where it gets sticky is what does "best" mean and what does "value" mean.

Obviously wine collectors have understood this for years. You can buy a $15 bottle and get a decent bottle of wine or you can buy a $1500 bottle of vintage wine. There are some people who won't be able to appreciate the $1500 wine. And I don't see the $15 bottle wine buyer cross shopping a $1500 bottle.

saturno_v

But I see a $15 wine bottle shopper cross shopping a $20-25 bottle....

this is me

Okay guys. Let's add some content to this thread. How do you like the Acura SH-AWD compare the other AWD system like BWM-Xdrive, MB-4 matic, Audi-Quattro, Lexus-AWD.
I'm doing some researching work and so far the Acura seem to be one of the best(if not the best) AWD system. Can't find much article comparing Acura system against other but did came across this article.
http://editorial.autos.msn.com/artic...umentid=435745

saturno_v

Definitely the best for handling purpose (for a road vehicle with no offroad aspiration) on par with the Quattro with sport differential. The BMW xDrive does match it only on the X6M which is equipped with a sport differential as well...but the X6 is a SUV (and fugly as hell for that matter)
You can read any TL SH-AWD road tests and words like "phenomenal grip", "exceptional handling", "world class performer" are used...
Lexus, Mercedes and Infiniti AWD systems are definitely behind (in handling capabilities)....the Nissan ATTESA-ETS Pro AWD system is even more sophisticated than the SH-AWD but it is reserved only for the GT-R.
Interestingly enough, the small, relatively economical, Nissan Juke SUV has Torque Vectoring....

sarge_in

I think it comes down to ride vs luxury. Acura's ride is sporty and lively, and handling is awesome esp with SH-AWD. Lexus is unparalleled for smooth and comfortable ride. I started off looking at ES350 but quickly dropped it after I drove the 2012 TL as I thoroughly enjoyed TL ride. Lexus obviously has more class (esp the GS) as well as brand recognition, and its interior comfort and almost complete lack of road and wind noise is something I wish TL had. I also much preferred the audio system, internal controls and GPS etc of TL. Lexus GPS locks you out of making changes by hand when driving (though there may be ways to get around it).

I have read that 2012 TL is surely more forgiving on road bumps than 2010 you have, so you may want to check it out first hand.