L3wD

Sorry made a mistake in my previous post

TMQ

My thought: the video is biased. It certainly states personal opinions, and not just facts. anyway, my 2 cents to help you when you go shopping:

1. If you want to get a BMW, I recommend the i version. RWD balance and performance is the hallmark of BMW. The Xdrive of BMW doesn't have a true sports suspension and the car sits higher.

2. If you need AWD, the 2009 TL with SHAWD is a very good choice. Although you can't get a manual until another year. The automatic is 5-speed, lagging the industry.

3. New technologies. BMW pioneers a lot of them. One example, BMW has had hill start assists on its cars for quite a few years, and now the TL finally has it.

4. Seats. BMW sport seats are terrific, if you haven't tried them. They are probably the best in the industry, especially when it comes to sporty driving.

5. Tires. BMW 3 series comes with run flat tires and no spare, which have been heavily criticized even by BMW owners.

6. Design. This is personal preference, but obviously the gaping big smiling mouth of the TL really doesn't help. the 3 series just got LCI (life cycle impulse or facelift) and has improved quite a bit.

7. Value. Acura offers value for the features/electronics, but BMW's value is in the driving dynamics, and the option for you to individualize your vehicle - trims, color, and whatever choice you want, not just one thing for all.

8. Car club - Does Acura have a car club? BMWCCA is a very good car club and makes the owners feel a strong sense of community, through local driving school and events, national meets, monthly magazines, rebates on new or COP purchases, and discounts at dealers and independent shops.

9. European delivery. BMW offers this terrific program and you get a good discount on the vehicle price.

10. New iDrive. The new version is much improved.

11. Maintenance - BMW has 4 yrs of free maintenance. Of course, if you plan to keep the car for a long time, extra maintenance is recommended. BMW reliability is getting good, especially on the 3 series (not so much with the SAVs).

L3wD

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...topanel..1.*#2

and please tell me you can drive a manual from a hill... i never had a problem except when i was learning... when i was teachin this chick and she almost rolled into the car behind me.. i guess its good for learners... but if your learning how to drive a car please dont tell me you're buying a TL or 335....

L3wD

besides the driving dynamics and the hill start thing i pretty much agree with you though... however im willing to bet the driving dynamics on a 335 is better than the 4th gen FWD TL but not the SH-AWD 6MT

new 3 series coming for 09 though...

Fishy

Actually... BMW USA has "Compare the true cost of other luxury vehicles to the unrivaled value of a BMW" on their web page:
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...aledValue.aspx

But sadly, if you click on "Run the numbers" or further below:

Competitive Comparison
Choose any BMW and see how its value compares to the competition.

Compare now

You'll find the web page doesn't work with the message:

"This page is currently unavailable due to maintenance. We apologize for any inconvenience."

This made me lauff. Given the reliability of their cars, its not a surpise that their web sites don't work either.

darth62

You'll have to pardon me if I trust Consumer Reports, Car and Driver, and Motor Trend more than the "drift king."

darth62

According to Consumer Reports, the RWD 3-series had "above average reliability" - I belive that the actual number of problems was on par with the TL/TSX.

They entire reliablity rating of BMW brand is brought down by their AWD trucks (mostly built in America). There is also a consistent pattern through their line of AWD sedans being less reliable than RWD sedans.

The bottom line with regard to reliablity is that BMW will never approach Acura in that regard (the only brands that do are Lexus and Infiniti) but the RWD BWM sedans seem to hold up pretty well.

The bigger issue, to me, is not reliablity but costs. The costs for minor repairs on a Beemer approach the ridiculous. With my TSX, I have most of the work done at a Honda dealer.

Just as a concrete example, it costs me $24 to get an oil change, with all the OEM specified parts (Honda branded filter, etc). An oil change for a 3-series is about $100 and it requires seven quarts of synthetic oil.

darth62

No. The 3 series had a minor facelift in 2009. The biggest change was to their infamous idrive system (which is vastly improved). It is only in the third year of production and there will not be a new one until 2011.

static808

With the economy and the substantial decrease in BMW Leasing it will be difficult to lease a comparable BMW 5 or 3 series car to the TL.

TL is priced better and is comparable to BMW's in performance.

In addition, I don't believe there will be many 3 series sedans that are identically equipped to a TL or TL SH-AWD.

Most BMW's are bare bones or bare bones + premium package. Only very few people get it completely loaded...because it reaches over $55K with tax if you are buying. At that price, you might as well get a 5 series + premium package.

L3wD

you do know that the drift king is not only a drifter... hes actually was a professional race driver in JGTC/Super GT and Le mans and I cant remember his whole bio but hes called the drift king because he can basically drift anything, he drifted JGTC cars and he did the parking lot ramp drift in tokyo drift.. sucky movie but sick drift

BMWs are not reliable go on bimmerforums and they tell you if u want reliability get something else

L3wD

oh sorry i thought from the edmunds article it was a new model


also I'm not bias as before I got my TL i was looking at a 00ish 5 series but the models i wanted were out of my budget... come to think of it the TL was out of my budget too... it was more of an impulse buy lol...... my uncle has a 540i with the M-sport package, the dealer couldnt find him a suitable M5 so he got that and i completely LOVE it one of the best BMWs ever built IMO.. looks, performance, luxury...

however i've never liked 3-series.. i sat in a 335 and plain and simple i'd rather sit in my 00 TL, i felt cramped and it felt cheap to me... the dash layout is ugly IMO... don't get me wrong i know it will blow the doors off my TL but its a poor excuse for a BMW

biggygo

2009 Acura TL True Cost to Own SM
Style:
4dr Sedan w/Tech Package (3.5L 6cyl 5A) | Show All Styles

MSRP:
From $38,685

Summary

True Cost to Own* $55,363 view details Total Cash Price $39,774 view details Average Cost per Mile* $0.74 compare popular models True Cost to Own Ratings**
operating cost lo
hi
depreciation cost lo
hi
* This is a 5-year estimate (based on 15,000 miles per year). ** Ratings are based on a comparison of this vehicle to all new vehicles.
True Cost to Own

Year 1 Year 2 Year 3 Year 4 Year 5 5-yr Total Depreciation $7,889 $4,225 $3,720 $3,296 $2,958 $22,088 Financing $2,491 $2,013 $1,497 $941 $342 $7,284 Insurance $1,903 $1,970 $2,038 $2,110 $2,141 $10,162 Taxes & Fees $329 $0 $24 $0 $24 $377 Fuel $2,305 $2,374 $2,445 $2,518 $2,594 $12,236 Maintenance $207 $411 $346 $749 $713 $2,426 Repairs $0 $0 $0 $312 $478 $790 Yearly Totals $15,124 $10,993 $10,070 $9,926 $9,250 $55,363

biggygo

2009 Acura TL True Cost to Own SM
Style:
SH-AWD 4dr Sedan AWD w/Tech Package (3.7L 6cyl 5A) | Show All Styles

MSRP:
From $42,235
Summary

True Cost to Own* $59,317 view details Total Cash Price $43,324 view details Average Cost per Mile* $0.79 compare popular models True Cost to Own Ratings**
operating cost lo
hi
depreciation cost lo
hi
* This is a 5-year estimate (based on 15,000 miles per year). ** Ratings are based on a comparison of this vehicle to all new vehicles. Based on regional costs for Zip Code: True Cost to Own

Year 1 Year 2 Year 3 Year 4 Year 5 5-yr Total Depreciation $9,029 $4,606 $4,055 $3,593 $3,224 $24,507 Financing $2,713 $2,192 $1,631 $1,025 $372 $7,933 Insurance $1,903 $1,970 $2,038 $2,110 $2,141 $10,162 Taxes & Fees $329 $0 $24 $0 $24 $377 Fuel $2,424 $2,497 $2,572 $2,649 $2,728 $12,870 Maintenance $207 $466 $346 $850 $713 $2,582 Repairs $0 $0 $0 $350 $536 $886 Yearly Totals $16,605 $11,731 $10,666 $10,577 $9,738 $59,317

biggygo

2009 BMW 3 Series TMV Pricing Results
Style:
328i 4dr Sedan (3.0L 6cyl 6M) | Show All Styles

MSRP:
From $33,400 | Price with Options
2009 BMW 3 Series
328i 4dr Sedan (3.0L 6cyl 6M) What Others
Are Paying MSRP Invoice National Base Price
A note about advertising fees $33,400 $30,730 $32,864 Regional Adjustment
for Zip Code Change - - -$48 Optional Equipment $10,795 $9,880 $10,595 ZPP Premium Package $3,350 $3,050 $3,284 609 Navigation System $2,100 $1,910 $2,058 205 6-Speed STEPTRONIC Automatic Transmission $1,325 $1,260 $1,311 677 Logic7 Sound System w/Surround Sound $875 $795 $858 522 Xenon Headlights $800 $730 $785 639 BMW Assist w/Bluetooth Wireless Technology $750 $685 $736 655 Satellite Radio w/1 Year Subscription $595 $540 $583 494 Heated Front Seats $500 $455 $490 6FL iPod and USB Adapter $400 $365 $392 2XA Sport Steering Wheel w/Paddle Shifters $100 $90 $98 Color Adjustment - - $20 Jet Black Destination Charge $825 $825 $825 Total with Options $45,020 $41,435 $44,256 but...if you want to just do a BASE comparison...NOT Apples to Apples:

Summary

True Cost to Own* $53,455 view details Total Cash Price $37,875 view details Average Cost per Mile* $0.71 compare popular models True Cost to Own Ratings**
operating cost lo
hi
depreciation cost lo
hi
* This is a 5-year estimate (based on 15,000 miles per year). ** Ratings are based on a comparison of this vehicle to all new vehicles. Based on regional costs for Zip Code: True Cost to Own

Year 1 Year 2 Year 3 Year 4 Year 5 5-yr Total Depreciation $7,529 $4,100 $3,608 $3,199 $2,870 $21,306 Financing $2,372 $1,917 $1,426 $896 $326 $6,937 Insurance $1,688 $1,747 $1,808 $1,872 $1,899 $9,014 Taxes & Fees $329 $0 $24 $0 $24 $377 Fuel $2,244 $2,311 $2,380 $2,451 $2,525 $11,911 Maintenance $0 $0 $0 $850 $992 $1,842 Repairs $0 $0 $0 $816 $1,252 $2,068 Yearly Totals $14,162 $10,075 $9,246 $10,084 $9,888 $53,455

biggygo

2009 BMW 3 Series True Cost to Own SM
Style:
335i xDrive 4dr Sedan AWD (3.0L 6cyl Turbo 6M) | Show All Styles

MSRP:
From $42,000

Summary

True Cost to Own* $61,525 view details Total Cash Price $44,561 view details Average Cost per Mile* $0.82 compare popular models True Cost to Own Ratings**
operating cost lo
hi
depreciation cost lo
hi
* This is a 5-year estimate (based on 15,000 miles per year). ** Ratings are based on a comparison of this vehicle to all new vehicles. Based on regional costs for Zip Code: True Cost to Own

Year 1 Year 2 Year 3 Year 4 Year 5 5-yr Total Depreciation $9,132 $4,686 $4,124 $3,657 $3,282 $24,881 Financing $2,791 $2,255 $1,677 $1,054 $383 $8,160 Insurance $1,958 $2,027 $2,097 $2,171 $2,203 $10,456 Taxes & Fees $329 $0 $24 $0 $24 $377 Fuel $2,523 $2,599 $2,677 $2,757 $2,840 $13,396 Maintenance $0 $0 $0 $975 $900 $1,875 Repairs $0 $0 $0 $939 $1,441 $2,380 Yearly Totals $16,733 $11,567 $10,599 $11,553 $11,073 $61,525
Now, do you want to add in the "Price it with options"?

2009 BMW 3 Series
335i xDrive 4dr Sedan AWD (3.0L 6cyl Turbo 6M) What Others
Are Paying MSRP Invoice National Base Price
A note about advertising fees $42,000 $38,640 $41,323 Regional Adjustment
for Zip Code Change - - -$61 Optional Equipment $8,545 $7,825 $8,386 ZPP Premium Package $2,650 $2,410 $2,597 609 Navigation System $2,100 $1,910 $2,058 205 6-Speed STEPTRONIC Automatic Transmission $1,325 $1,260 $1,311 677 Logic7 Sound System w/Surround Sound $875 $795 $857 655 Satellite Radio w/1 Year Subscription $595 $540 $583 494 Heated Front Seats $500 $455 $490 6FL iPod and USB Adapter $400 $365 $392 2XA Sport Steering Wheel w/Paddle Shifters $100 $90 $98 Color Adjustment - - $25 Jet Black Destination Charge $825 $825 $825 Total with Options $51,370 $47,290 $50,498

static808

Biggygo. And your point is?

darth62

I think he is trying to argue that the actual costs of ownership aren't really that great, mostly because Beemers hold their value pretty well.

The problem with that sort of analysis is that it assumes that you sell or trade-in your vehicle within five years of ownership, and that you keep the miles reasonable.

If, like me, you keep your car for six to eight years, the increased cost of maintence for the Beemer will really add up. Also, with that kind of ownership pattern, resale value becomes less relevant because the car doesn't have all that much value later on anyway.

Monte TLS,MAX

Actually the 09 model started the 4th model year for the sedan as it arrived as an 06 model.

darth62

Once again, forgive me if I trust months of systematic testing by auto engineers at CR over a race drivers experience with the vehicles at the track.

L3wD

huh.. what are we talking about here? I thought we were talking about handling... what shows true handling then real professionals on a real race track?

and since when did magazines do months of handling testing... it either handles or it doesnt

darth62

CR actually does do months of handling tests. They test cars under a wide variety of real-world conditions - both simulated emergency conditions and day-to-day driving. Motor Trend, Edmunds, and C & D don't do testing that is as extensive, but they at least put their vehicles through a rigorous set of tests with multiple drivers.

When most drivers are professional racers on a track, then handling under those specific circumstances might matter more. But, for now, there is absolutely nothing about that source of information that I find even mildly convincing or credible.

L3wD

So then what kind of handling are you talking about here? :S

I was under the impression we were talking handling as in lap times

cp3117

Do you have the links to these as i am struggling trying to find them on youtube or google.

The only thing i can find is a Auto journalist who tested the TL-S, 335i, IS350 and an A4. Where the worst of the bunch was the TL-S and although it was a good street car he stated it had no place on the track compared to the others.....

I do realise though that every driver will get different results at times and this goes for professional track drivers also....

Fishy

C'mon L3wD, CR doesn't evaluate cars for track driving by professional drivers

CR rates cars by how well the car would feel and handle on roads being driving by average people.

You and darth are talking about two different things:
Objectively with professional drivers, the TL handles better
Subjectively with average drivers, the 3 series handles better

Fishy

You need to improve your google skills

Don't know if the video is still there, but in this IS forum they talk about it along with the video link. Apparently, the IS350 won in wet conditions and should have won more handily in dry conditions.
http://my.is/forums/f104/best-motori...legacy-326515/

IMO, the IS350 felt way too soft and was setup in typical Lexus comfort/safety style. It may be a drag racer but its not a road racer. If it beat the 335i and G35 on the track then the 335i and G35 really suck eggs.

Here's the TOV thread on the willow springs test with the magazine scan:
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-messa...sage_id=677331

The TL-S handily beats the IS350 and G35 and the thread has some interesting posts. Regardless of any comparision, the lap time for TL-S was very, very impressive for a stock car with all season tires.

darth62

This isn't true either. The only thing we have to go on is one or two tests that are reported primarily on the internet and only involve one or two drivers. And, even then, we basically don't have a lot more than lap times to go on. Since real world driving doesn't involve a whole lot of driving at high speeds in eliptical laps of figure eight patterns, I fail to see the signficance.

It is also not true the tests that find the 3 series to handle in a superior fashion are all "subjective." CR, C + D, Motor Trend, Edmunds, all report times for avoidance manuvers etc. Those tests are not only "objective" they are far closer to real world driving.

Lots of bias here.

In OBJECTIVE tests that involve multiple drivers, under more realistic conditions, and reported by trustworthy sources, the 335 kicks the snot out of the TL (as would a G35 and probably an IS350 as well).

L3wD

lol how is best motoring not a reliable source? He isnt some random guy off the street, the biggest tuners MCR/Amuse/Jun/Blitz/Spoon blah blah... wont give their cars to anyone... please tell me where hes lapping a figure 8.

Its so funny I think you are trying to justify your purchase of a 328 now when the possibility of the TL-S beating the superior 335i is in the air

biggygo

My point was to show objective (not subjective) data about the cost of ownership between the vehicles in question - that way you can see what the difference in cost of owning and operating the vehicles is and then weighing that against the subjective differences between them. Remember that the BMWs used are the base prices and are not similarly equipped - to see the similarly equipped prices, they are somewhere in the mountain of data I posted...find it yourself! lol (They are MUCH higher and would raise the cost of ownership accordingly)

TL|GTX

YOUR ALL HARD HEADED. Just get a dam Infiniti G37 Sedan. The new 7Spd Auto is faster then the 6Spd Manual. 7Auto, 0-60= 5Flat. 6manaul, 0-60=6.2. And there is an G37X coming out in early 2009, if u want awd. Btw the G37Sedan is compared almost the same with the 335i RWD, in performance. And gets better gas mileage. For 330hp 18mpg-city, 28mpg-Hwy.

Fishy

I guess Porsche, Ferrarri, etc. should all stop developing their cars on the Ring, etc. and start tuning their suspensions to avoid some a-hole brake checking you? I guess I'll grant you that the BMW 3's are better at avoiding chickens crossing the road but at the high limits of track racing, the TL has been documented as being superior.

Here's another race result:
http://www.nasaproracing.com/enduro/...004_recap.html

In 25 hours of racing, the stock modified TL came in third overall behind a Porsche 993 and a custom racing car! It handily beat everything in its class but the BMW 3's did win in their classes... lower ones

Btw, if you're going to be a BMW 3 series fanboi, you gotta start saying "bimmer" instead of "beemer"

darth62

You may have some reading difficulties, but take a look at my signature. I'm probably the first BMW "fanboy" in history who has been driving Acura/Honda sedans for 20 years. I've basically had a least one Acura/Honda in my garage since I started driving. If anything, I'm an Acura fanbody - but one who is balanced enough to understand the limits of my vehicle. I think that is probably what seperates me from "fanboys" like yourself.

I don't give a rot if Porsche and Ferrari test their cars on the track. I'm not interested in buying a Porsche, nor am I interested in driving on the track. Likewise, I really couldn't care less what a car does in 24 hours of racing. I'm interested in driving on the highway and local streets. And, what I want is a car that handles well in real world situations, not in track tests that are only reported in links on the internet or in magazine articles that aren't even in English.

And, once again, I have to point out that all of your links are to tests of a car that isn't even made anymore. The FWD 4G TL is an entirely different car than the 3G TL-S. Its bigger, heavier, and has a less connected EPS. When you have some information about the car that we're actually talking about in this forum, let me know.

In the meantime, I stand by my earlier claims. In terms of handling, the 4GL TL will not be in the same league as the 3-series or G35. That doesn't mean it isn't faster, a better car overall, more reliable, or anything like that. It simply won't handle as well.

darth62

A little dense, are we?

Once again, the 3G TL-S is no longer being made. We're talking about the 4G TL here.

You points might be a little more convincing if you were actually talking about the same car as the rest of us.

Now, what I'd like you to do, is find me a legitimate test in a decent outlet (Edmunds, CR, Motor Trend, C & D) that has hard data showing the 4G TL handles better than the 3-series and/or G35 and then we can talk. None of your links to the "guy tuners go to" or the "drift king" testing on a track are going to impress me.

darth62

The G37 is the REAL competitor for the TL. It offers all the performance of a 335, the reliability of a TL, and could probably be had for a price less than a TL. If I were the CEO of BMW, Infiniti would have me very scared right now.

PetesTL

Well, the G37 isn't even out yet, so who knows what the reliability will be. The previous G35 had pretty good reliability, but I don't think it was as good as the 3G. I doubt, though, that you would be able to get a '09 G37 under $40K as comparably equipped as the TL Tech. Both are solid cars. You really can't go wrong with either one. Maybe after my lease is up in a couple years, I'll give the G37X a much closer look....unless Acura unleashes a new type S, of course.

L3wD

well Darth I was mostly replying to when you said

"Second, all the racetrack results in the world won't convince me that the 3G TL-S or 4G TL handles as well as G35 or BMW 335i. There is no way a front heavy FWD will handle better than a RWD Beemer or Infiniti."

I'm just trying to prove to you that it can and it does

when it comes to 4G i post a link where edmunds drove the SH-AWD 6MT and they said it was better than all the others, not only did the event have the top dogs in the segment, it also had them in their sportiest package. The journalists all got the same result of the SH-AWD being on top

and I did say that the FWD is more than likely not on par with a 335 probably not with any 3-series handling wise... its a different animal, its like twice the size, hell my 2nd gen is bigger than a 3 series

I'm actually interested in seeing the G37 vs SH-AWD 6MT

L3wD

I dont get what you mean by hard data either... if you think skidpad measures handling you are completely mistaken, as seen in the 2nd gen prelude pulling the lowest gs in the test and named 2nd best handling car in the world... that was road and track or C/D

Fishy

First of all, this isn't really a serious issue since we're just shooting the shit here wasting time when we should be working or doing the chores.

Here's that link to Motortrends review of 4G TL SH-AWD with manual transmission coming next year:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...ual/index.html

Once again, on the track, the TL handily beats the 335's along with the G35 and Audi "S"4. But once again, this is a peformance test and not a real world drivability test.

Car companies don't develop and release cars in lock step so there is always going to be points in time when one car is better than another in whatever grading system is chosen.

But the overall pattern is clear:

BMW makes cars that are better for driving in typical real world situations.

Honda makes cars with better performance at the limits and higher quality, ergonomics, reliability and value.

Btw, I would really like to see a track race between a 3G Type S MT and 4G TL SH-AWD MT. I'm betting that the 4G would win.

csmeance

lets keep it cool guys, remember the rules...

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Fishy, I agree, I would love to see a comparo between a 3G Type S MT and a 4G TL SH-AWD MT. I'd say it's hard to tell, considering both these cars beat the comparison by 2 seconds, but on different tracks, with different drivers, and different time.

IMO, the best indicator of handling is lap time, especially for a car that is slower on the straights than others. The 3G TL-S is one example. Before one jumps in and say the 3G TL is irrelevant, let me make it clear here now, the 3G TL-S 6MT was made to be sporty, while the 4G FWD TL focuses more on luxury. The 3G TL-S 6MT came with Brembo brakes, performance tires, LSD sport-tuned suspension etc, while the 4G TL has some crappy tires, no LSD, automatic, and normal 2-piston brakes. The 4G FWD TL 5AT is more like a ES350, rather than a sports sedan. I doubt it could stand a chance against a 335i or G35 in terms of lap times. Anyways, back to the 3G TL-S 6MT, yes, I mentioned tires, this leads to the second point, the 3G TL-S has performance tires, they are Bridgestone Potenza RE030. Some of you might argue the TL-S is faster than the others on the track because it has better tires. But that's not true, the G35S and IS350 both have even better tires - Bridgestone Potenza RE050. Third point, both G35S and IS350 are faster on the straight than the 3G TL-S 6MT, both E.T. and trap speed in the 1/4 mile. While there's nobody has yet to broken into the 13's with a stock TL, and the highest trapspeed I have seen is 101mph; both G35S and IS350 are 13's cars and trap at over 102mph, a small but decisive speed/acceleration advantage over the TL-S 6MT. With the brembo brakes, the TL doesn't stop any faster than the IS350 and G35S, but perhaps it's better at brake-fade resistance. The only part left in the lap time equation is cornering speed, if the TL doesn't brake any sooner, doesn't accelerate any faster on the straight, then in order to produce faster lap times, it must have higher cornering speed. I don't think this is rocket science and it should be fairly easy to figure out. Ok, someone said lap times don't mean much because they don't track their cars. They want objective numbers, well, according to Car & Driver, the 3G TL-S 6MT with its mediocre tires can pull 0.93g in the skid pad, vs 0.89g (or was it 0.91) for the G35S, and the IS350 is even worse.

By the way, I don't see how the TL-S vs IS350 vs G35S comparison by Keiichi Tsuchiya is biased. The TL-S is the most "Americanized" car out of the 3, being Japanese, I would imagine Tsuchiya would favor the IS350 and G35S more since both were made in Japan, while the TL-S was made in the States. Perhaps Honda paid Keiichi then? Well, I could say Nissan and Toyota paid Keiichi too. Besides Keiichi is pretty loaded since he's been making a lot of money from racing, Best Motoring, Hot Version, his own shop, different ads, etc. If I were him, I wouldn't want to risk losing my reputation for a little bit of money. Another possibility, in JGTC, Keiichi drove a Honda NSX race car. Well, Keiichi also used to be in the Nissan team racing GTR's, he also raced in the Le Mans with Toyota GT-One, and his favorite is a Toyota - the AE86. One can think of more "excuses" as to why the comparo is biased, but IMO that's pure BS without any proof.

I think some of us are confusing two very different things, driving experience and handling. BMW's have both, they are the "ultimate driving machines" because they have great steering feel, they inspire confidence, they communicate with the driver, and they have great handling and can carry speeds through corners. But in terms of just handling alone, and in my definition, it means how good a car does on a track, other cars can be faster. The TL-S might or might not be faster, there's no official test done. I cannot conclude the TL-S is faster than a 335i on a track, but neither can I say the 335i is for sure faster than a TL-S on a track. The argument, "the 335i is RWD and the TL-S is FWD" simply doesn't prove anything.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

opps csmeance, didn't see your post while typing mine...lol...