2009 Acura Tl vs. 2009 BMW 335xi
11-18-2008, 08:18 PM
#361
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Ha ha how many Tier 2 luxury brands are there then..? Infiniti is the only one not on your list except for Rolls, Bentley, etc...
That's why I think people will pony up what many say is too much money for too little car (i.e. BMW 3 Series or Mercedes-Benz C Class) and why Acura struggles.
I have sold many C Classes and the TL has a much better value pound for pound but those Cs sell like hotcakes. Obviously the difference is what people consider to be a luxury brand, right?
That's why I think people will pony up what many say is too much money for too little car (i.e. BMW 3 Series or Mercedes-Benz C Class) and why Acura struggles.
I have sold many C Classes and the TL has a much better value pound for pound but those Cs sell like hotcakes. Obviously the difference is what people consider to be a luxury brand, right?
Last edited by CL6; 11-18-2008 at 08:21 PM.
11-18-2008, 09:26 PM
#362
You are a very confused person I think. The Mercedes-Benz G Class is a dinosaur that hardly anybody buys. And Acura is not a 'luxury' brand when, until a month ago, they sold a dressed up CRV (RDX), a dressed up FWD Euro Accord (TSX) and an upscale FWD US Accord (TL). The RDX/RL have never really sold very well anyway.
It is the most profitable brand of its time. MB was bankrupt after Chrysler saga. Honda has the resources and R&D that prodcued SuperCar like NSX in 80s.
Look up the definition of 'luxury' as provided above because you don't understand some things.
You also do not understand that luxury brands have to offer different kind of financial services than average brands do. The CEO of a company is going to want more ways to get a car than Joe Smith looking to buy a TL over 5 years of payments...
You also do not understand that luxury brands have to offer different kind of financial services than average brands do. The CEO of a company is going to want more ways to get a car than Joe Smith looking to buy a TL over 5 years of payments...
And who cares if Rolls or Bentley were bought by larger brands to survive... Acura is a tiny brand supported by a larger brand (Honda) with the main difference being the other brands are luxury.
11-18-2008, 09:58 PM
#363
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Uh the G Class is a converted Germany Army jeep sold to civilians you obviously mean the GL Class which is outsold handily by the ML Class. And the GL is not in the same category as the Lexus LX-570/Toyota Land Cruiser or the Range Rover because they do not offer three rows of seating.
The Euro Civic is a fantastic car but it's not a luxury car.
Mercedes-Benz is owned by Daimler and though they lost a ton of money when they dumped Chrysler they have always done well financially while Honda does not even have the resources to build a 6 or 7 speed automatic according to the company themselves.
I worked for Acura for many years and very well understand their philosophy, probably better than you do for all of the meetings I sat in with Japanese Honda Execs and their American counterparts. What you don't know is the American execs always complained that Honda would not make available to them the money they needed to make Acura a luxury brand. For example, they complained that Honda would not give them the resources to turn the A-SPEC products into a true performance wing of Acura the way Lexus has with the F, BMW has the the M, and Mercedes-Benz has with AMG. You don't see A-SPEC as a brand anymore, do you? No resources for it, that's why. Honda is too conservative as a company and won't take big chances which Lexus has taken, for example, to truly compete with the big boys.
Acura isbrand by itself... this is why a few years ago, for example, Acura finally was able to have "Honda" removed from the glass and instead have "Acura" placed there.
Your thoughts are unfocused, your claims rebutted, and your points are not backed up by Honda/Acura executives who admit Acura needs time to become a Tier 1 luxury car maker.
The Euro Civic is a fantastic car but it's not a luxury car.
Mercedes-Benz is owned by Daimler and though they lost a ton of money when they dumped Chrysler they have always done well financially while Honda does not even have the resources to build a 6 or 7 speed automatic according to the company themselves.
I worked for Acura for many years and very well understand their philosophy, probably better than you do for all of the meetings I sat in with Japanese Honda Execs and their American counterparts. What you don't know is the American execs always complained that Honda would not make available to them the money they needed to make Acura a luxury brand. For example, they complained that Honda would not give them the resources to turn the A-SPEC products into a true performance wing of Acura the way Lexus has with the F, BMW has the the M, and Mercedes-Benz has with AMG. You don't see A-SPEC as a brand anymore, do you? No resources for it, that's why. Honda is too conservative as a company and won't take big chances which Lexus has taken, for example, to truly compete with the big boys.
Acura isbrand by itself... this is why a few years ago, for example, Acura finally was able to have "Honda" removed from the glass and instead have "Acura" placed there.
Your thoughts are unfocused, your claims rebutted, and your points are not backed up by Honda/Acura executives who admit Acura needs time to become a Tier 1 luxury car maker.
Last edited by CL6; 11-18-2008 at 10:01 PM.
11-18-2008, 10:23 PM
#364
Uh the G Class is a converted Germany Army jeep sold to civilians you obviously mean the GL Class which is outsold handily by the ML Class. And the GL is not in the same category as the Lexus LX-570/Toyota Land Cruiser or the Range Rover because they do not offer three rows of seating.
The Euro Civic is a fantastic car but it's not a luxury car.
Mercedes-Benz is owned by Daimler and though they lost a ton of money when they dumped Chrysler they have always done well financially while Honda does not even have the resources to build a 6 or 7 speed automatic according to the company themselves.
I worked for Acura for many years and very well understand their philosophy, probably better than you do for all of the meetings I sat in with Japanese Honda Execs and their American counterparts. What you don't know is the American execs always complained that Honda would not make available to them the money they needed to make Acura a luxury brand. For example, they complained that Honda would not give them the resources to turn the A-SPEC products into a true performance wing of Acura the way Lexus has with the F, BMW has the the M, and Mercedes-Benz has with AMG. You don't see A-SPEC as a brand anymore, do you? No resources for it, that's why. Honda is too conservative as a company and won't take big chances which Lexus has taken, for example, to truly compete with the big boys.
Acura isbrand by itself... this is why a few years ago, for example, Acura finally was able to have "Honda" removed from the glass and instead have "Acura" placed there.
Your thoughts are unfocused, your claims rebutted, and your points are not backed up by Honda/Acura executives who admit Acura needs time to become a Tier 1 luxury car maker.
Honda does not need turbo charging or V8 to produce similar level of refinement.
http://www.carpages.co.uk/honda/hond...2-20-02-07.asp
If you ran the Legend back to back with a BMW 5 Series, I very much doubt that the 5 Series would follow you around the bends with such enthusiasm and safe predicable handling
Honda’s superb Super Handling All-Wheel Drive (SH-AWD), you only have to apply full power out of a wet junction to witness that it really works
If you ran the Legend back to back with a BMW 5 Series, I very much doubt that the 5 Series would follow you around the bends with such enthusiasm and safe predicable handling
Honda’s superb Super Handling All-Wheel Drive (SH-AWD), you only have to apply full power out of a wet junction to witness that it really works
http://automiddleeast.com/newcars/20...earchterm=None
Sadly, even with its high level of sophistication and luxury, the Legend has failed to excite the luxury car buying public in the Middle East from veering away from the straight and narrow. This has got nothing to do with its build quality or engineering prowess. Honda is an engineering driven company and its products are technologically some of the best in the world. In the case of the Legend, though, it is a case of image, like most other Japanese brands who also suffer from this malady.
Sadly, even with its high level of sophistication and luxury, the Legend has failed to excite the luxury car buying public in the Middle East from veering away from the straight and narrow. This has got nothing to do with its build quality or engineering prowess. Honda is an engineering driven company and its products are technologically some of the best in the world. In the case of the Legend, though, it is a case of image, like most other Japanese brands who also suffer from this malady.
11-18-2008, 10:38 PM
#365
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Uh the G Class is a converted Germany Army jeep sold to civilians you obviously mean the GL Class which is outsold handily by the ML Class. And the GL is not in the same category as the Lexus LX-570/Toyota Land Cruiser or the Range Rover because they do not offer three rows of seating.
The Euro Civic is a fantastic car but it's not a luxury car.
Mercedes-Benz is owned by Daimler and though they lost a ton of money when they dumped Chrysler they have always done well financially while Honda does not even have the resources to build a 6 or 7 speed automatic according to the company themselves.
I worked for Acura for many years and very well understand their philosophy, probably better than you do for all of the meetings I sat in with Japanese Honda Execs and their American counterparts. What you don't know is the American execs always complained that Honda would not make available to them the money they needed to make Acura a luxury brand. For example, they complained that Honda would not give them the resources to turn the A-SPEC products into a true performance wing of Acura the way Lexus has with the F, BMW has the the M, and Mercedes-Benz has with AMG. You don't see A-SPEC as a brand anymore, do you? No resources for it, that's why. Honda is too conservative as a company and won't take big chances which Lexus has taken, for example, to truly compete with the big boys.
Acura isbrand by itself... this is why a few years ago, for example, Acura finally was able to have "Honda" removed from the glass and instead have "Acura" placed there.
Your thoughts are unfocused, your claims rebutted, and your points are not backed up by Honda/Acura executives who admit Acura needs time to become a Tier 1 luxury car maker.
The Euro Civic is a fantastic car but it's not a luxury car.
Mercedes-Benz is owned by Daimler and though they lost a ton of money when they dumped Chrysler they have always done well financially while Honda does not even have the resources to build a 6 or 7 speed automatic according to the company themselves.
I worked for Acura for many years and very well understand their philosophy, probably better than you do for all of the meetings I sat in with Japanese Honda Execs and their American counterparts. What you don't know is the American execs always complained that Honda would not make available to them the money they needed to make Acura a luxury brand. For example, they complained that Honda would not give them the resources to turn the A-SPEC products into a true performance wing of Acura the way Lexus has with the F, BMW has the the M, and Mercedes-Benz has with AMG. You don't see A-SPEC as a brand anymore, do you? No resources for it, that's why. Honda is too conservative as a company and won't take big chances which Lexus has taken, for example, to truly compete with the big boys.
Acura isbrand by itself... this is why a few years ago, for example, Acura finally was able to have "Honda" removed from the glass and instead have "Acura" placed there.
Your thoughts are unfocused, your claims rebutted, and your points are not backed up by Honda/Acura executives who admit Acura needs time to become a Tier 1 luxury car maker.
My '06 TL has "Honda" glass & the trunk mat is a Honda Accord part.
Interesting note: When I put factory running boards from Hondacuraworld.com on my daughters' Honda Pilot over half of the small parts bags were labeled Acura.
When I called to see if there was a problem Tim said its all the same item.
Seems like the exact same custom fit factory running board set is used on both the Acura & Honda SUV's.
11-19-2008, 02:32 AM
#366
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Sorry the Lexus LX-570 does have a third row seat... tacked on which eats up cargo room when 'folded' and no legroom. GL450/550 has a third row seat designed to fold flat and can actually hold people larger than midgets.
This shows how lame it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsD4jWQz-Pk
And if Lexus threw money away they did okay in the States considering they started after Acura and sell more cars than Acura. Not a bad plan I guess?
Resale value of BMW Z4 and Honda S2000? Funny... an 05 base Z4 and S2000 w/40,000 miles shows $17,683 for the BMW and $14,674 for the Honda.
S2000 is not a luxury car only a retarded person would think that.
I think in 2006 we started to see Acura appear on windows and Honda disappear... But if you did into the car it'll still say Honda.
You can think what you want but just cause you say it don't make it true... consumers and Honda/Acura execs don't back you up.
The luxury market is small but there is a lot of money to be made unlike the $350 million Honda just threw away on their F1 team last year!
This shows how lame it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsD4jWQz-Pk
And if Lexus threw money away they did okay in the States considering they started after Acura and sell more cars than Acura. Not a bad plan I guess?
Resale value of BMW Z4 and Honda S2000? Funny... an 05 base Z4 and S2000 w/40,000 miles shows $17,683 for the BMW and $14,674 for the Honda.
S2000 is not a luxury car only a retarded person would think that.
I think in 2006 we started to see Acura appear on windows and Honda disappear... But if you did into the car it'll still say Honda.
You can think what you want but just cause you say it don't make it true... consumers and Honda/Acura execs don't back you up.
The luxury market is small but there is a lot of money to be made unlike the $350 million Honda just threw away on their F1 team last year!
Last edited by CL6; 11-19-2008 at 02:35 AM.
11-19-2008, 05:55 AM
#367
AZ Community Team
...
Mercedes-Benz is owned by Daimler and though they lost a ton of money when they dumped Chrysler they have always done well financially while Honda does not even have the resources to build a 6 or 7 speed automatic according to the company themselves.
I worked for Acura for many years and very well understand their philosophy, probably better than you do for all of the meetings I sat in with Japanese Honda Execs and their American counterparts. What you don't know is the American execs always complained that Honda would not make available to them the money they needed to make Acura a luxury brand. For example, they complained that Honda would not give them the resources to turn the A-SPEC products into a true performance wing of Acura the way Lexus has with the F, BMW has the the M, and Mercedes-Benz has with AMG. You don't see A-SPEC as a brand anymore, do you? No resources for it, that's why. Honda is too conservative as a company and won't take big chances which Lexus has taken, for example, to truly compete with the big boys.
Acura isbrand by itself... this is why a few years ago, for example, Acura finally was able to have "Honda" removed from the glass and instead have "Acura" placed there.
Your thoughts are unfocused, your claims rebutted, and your points are not backed up by Honda/Acura executives who admit Acura needs time to become a Tier 1 luxury car maker.
Mercedes-Benz is owned by Daimler and though they lost a ton of money when they dumped Chrysler they have always done well financially while Honda does not even have the resources to build a 6 or 7 speed automatic according to the company themselves.
I worked for Acura for many years and very well understand their philosophy, probably better than you do for all of the meetings I sat in with Japanese Honda Execs and their American counterparts. What you don't know is the American execs always complained that Honda would not make available to them the money they needed to make Acura a luxury brand. For example, they complained that Honda would not give them the resources to turn the A-SPEC products into a true performance wing of Acura the way Lexus has with the F, BMW has the the M, and Mercedes-Benz has with AMG. You don't see A-SPEC as a brand anymore, do you? No resources for it, that's why. Honda is too conservative as a company and won't take big chances which Lexus has taken, for example, to truly compete with the big boys.
Acura isbrand by itself... this is why a few years ago, for example, Acura finally was able to have "Honda" removed from the glass and instead have "Acura" placed there.
Your thoughts are unfocused, your claims rebutted, and your points are not backed up by Honda/Acura executives who admit Acura needs time to become a Tier 1 luxury car maker.
Also Honda jumped into F1 in the early 80's teaming with several teams (notibly Williams and McLaren), early results (83-86) were not good. Then they went on to dominate the sport by designing and developing engines that won six straight contructor championships from 1986-1991 beating world leaders. Again they did it all on their own desiging and developing everything from nothing not buying a F1 engine business like MB did (Illmor). Today Honda like Toyota are struggling to get their entire car F1 approach to winning.
You seem really intent on only consistently critizing Acura/Honda without acknoledging any of their achievements. You do not seem to mention MB going through a tremendously bad period from the mid 90's to mid 00's with poor quality control and reliability which their CEO openingly talked about.
In general Honda is regarded as the risk taker from the Japanese auto press (Toyota are seem as the conservative ones). In all MB, BMW, Honda, and Toyota are all seen as leaders in their respective spaces in the auto market.
11-19-2008, 07:30 AM
#368
Sorry the Lexus LX-570 does have a third row seat... tacked on which eats up cargo room when 'folded' and no legroom. GL450/550 has a third row seat designed to fold flat and can actually hold people larger than midgets.
This shows how lame it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsD4jWQz-Pk
This shows how lame it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsD4jWQz-Pk
And if Lexus threw money away they did okay in the States considering they started after Acura and sell more cars than Acura. Not a bad plan I guess?
Resale value of BMW Z4 and Honda S2000? Funny... an 05 base Z4 and S2000 w/40,000 miles shows $17,683 for the BMW and $14,674 for the Honda.
S2000 is not a luxury car only a retarded person would think that.
I think in 2006 we started to see Acura appear on windows and Honda disappear... But if you did into the car it'll still say Honda.
You can think what you want but just cause you say it don't make it true... consumers and Honda/Acura execs don't back you up.
The luxury market is small but there is a lot of money to be made unlike the $350 million Honda just threw away on their F1 team last year!
You can think what you want but just cause you say it don't make it true... consumers and Honda/Acura execs don't back you up.
The luxury market is small but there is a lot of money to be made unlike the $350 million Honda just threw away on their F1 team last year!
Just for your record. Acura RL was number TWO in comparision test and has the best seats for comfort along with usual handling, refinement and telematics characteristics. The only reason it loses to M45 because of lack of V8. All ur BMW 5 and MB E class are at the bottom. RL has also car and driver 10 Best in its class.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...st+page-8.html
2005 Acura RL
Second Place: Spoilsport Sedans
The Acura RL misses the top slot in this test mainly because of the company's habitual restraint. Acura engineers could have made the RL bigger but instead made it smaller (retaining much of the previous model's interior volume). They could have gone to a V-8, but they used a VTEC V-6. They could have changed to rear-wheel drive but chose to adapt a front-drive platform to a novel all-wheel-drive system known as SH-AWD, which can shift torque fore-and-aft for traction and side to side to generate extra yaw for cornering.
The outcome is a remarkably sensible luxury sports sedan for owners who mostly use the front seats. (For occasional use, there is passable space in the back seat, where Acura has used padding to stagger the center position, reducing shoulder overlap.) Front-passenger comfort is excellent, with some of the best seats in the class.
2005 Acura RL
Second Place: Spoilsport Sedans
The Acura RL misses the top slot in this test mainly because of the company's habitual restraint. Acura engineers could have made the RL bigger but instead made it smaller (retaining much of the previous model's interior volume). They could have gone to a V-8, but they used a VTEC V-6. They could have changed to rear-wheel drive but chose to adapt a front-drive platform to a novel all-wheel-drive system known as SH-AWD, which can shift torque fore-and-aft for traction and side to side to generate extra yaw for cornering.
The outcome is a remarkably sensible luxury sports sedan for owners who mostly use the front seats. (For occasional use, there is passable space in the back seat, where Acura has used padding to stagger the center position, reducing shoulder overlap.) Front-passenger comfort is excellent, with some of the best seats in the class.
11-19-2008, 07:50 AM
#369
AZ Community Team
BTW in their long term record BMW did win one constructors championship and driver's championship in 1983 (using the great turbo 4 which was derived from a 3 series 1.6L iron block motor by the great Paul Rouch!). But that pales greatly when compared to Honda's record of 6 constructors and 5 driver championships. Honda engines dominated F1 from 1986 to 1991. Winning 15 of 16 races in 1988 alone!
11-19-2008, 03:42 PM
#370
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How about a 3rd row with 1 inch more head room then the '09 TL's second row?
'09 Acura luxury sized rear seat
Head Room - 36.6
Leg Room - 36.2
Hip Room - 54.8
Shoulder Room - 56
Manual fold - no
Power fold - no
Cargo - 12.5 cu ft
'08 Expedition EL plain old truck 3rd row seat
Head Room - 38
Leg Room - 38
Hip Room - 52
Shoulder Room - 67
Manual fold - no
Power fold - Yes (individual fold for each seat) 60/40
Cargo - 42.6 cu ft
BTW I noticed a lot of your cut & past about how great the RL is compared to the real luxury brands is coming from 2005 reviews etc.
""2005 Acura RL
Second Place: Spoilsport Sedans"""
http://www.autointell.com/News-2004/...v-17-04-p9.htm
Honda Legend Wins Japan Car of the Year Award 2004-2005 and Most Advanced Technology Award
Do you have anything that's not four or five years old like '09 vs '09 items?
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-19-2008 at 03:45 PM.
11-19-2008, 07:11 PM
#372
Senior Moderator
iTrader: (1)
wow- this thread is out of control. Let's get it back on topic- quick. This is my second request. There won't be a third.
11-20-2008, 02:12 PM
#373
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Actually, Honda built the NSX, Acura only rebadged it and the NSX was conceived and designed before Acura ever existed. The NSX was Mr. Honda's baby. When he died, all of the risks, engineering, hopes, and abilities that car embodied died with him and we enjoyed crappy cars like the 2G RL, Vigor, SLX, etc... Only recently has this been reversed to come extent but the discussion was not about the NSX, was it?
I brought up Honda burning through $350 million on F1 because the discussion turned to the resources Honda does or does not have. Shore up your upscale division, first. And the number is known as it was reported in the Financial Times yesterday. I will provide you with a link to that story!
Honda is a more conservative company than Toyota. Toyota went full bore into the hybrids, V8s, introducing the Lexus brand to the entire world, and full size trucks (at their peril now) as well as throwing tons of money into Lexus in advertisements and expanding their product line-up while Honda held back money, refused to build V8s, and killed off several models of Acura because they couldn't figure out what to do. Honda also played it safe when they killed of the HSC. I think Honda used to be more daring when its founder was alive.
Why do people choose a BMW over a TL when, on paper, the TL would seem to have it beat? The answer, obviously, is something Honda/Acura need to learn but I would bet it has something to do with how people think of the two respective brands in terms of performance and luxury.
I am willing to concede that the jury is still out on the 4G TL but, I think, even in this period of contracting automotive sales we will be able to judge how that model performs when December's sales numbers come out.
My personal opinion is that, in 2008, Mercedes-Benz and Honda are two pioneers in the auto industry as far as safety and technology goes but this discussion is not about that. Toyota I have never been a fan of though they do find many people willing to buy their cars!
I brought up Honda burning through $350 million on F1 because the discussion turned to the resources Honda does or does not have. Shore up your upscale division, first. And the number is known as it was reported in the Financial Times yesterday. I will provide you with a link to that story!
Honda is a more conservative company than Toyota. Toyota went full bore into the hybrids, V8s, introducing the Lexus brand to the entire world, and full size trucks (at their peril now) as well as throwing tons of money into Lexus in advertisements and expanding their product line-up while Honda held back money, refused to build V8s, and killed off several models of Acura because they couldn't figure out what to do. Honda also played it safe when they killed of the HSC. I think Honda used to be more daring when its founder was alive.
Why do people choose a BMW over a TL when, on paper, the TL would seem to have it beat? The answer, obviously, is something Honda/Acura need to learn but I would bet it has something to do with how people think of the two respective brands in terms of performance and luxury.
I am willing to concede that the jury is still out on the 4G TL but, I think, even in this period of contracting automotive sales we will be able to judge how that model performs when December's sales numbers come out.
My personal opinion is that, in 2008, Mercedes-Benz and Honda are two pioneers in the auto industry as far as safety and technology goes but this discussion is not about that. Toyota I have never been a fan of though they do find many people willing to buy their cars!
You worked for a Acura dealership selling Acura's, not Acura the company that makes the car. Acura built the NSX, if you do not think that was a tremendous risk you really do not understand the auto business ( and not the auto sales business which is a different business BTW).
Also Honda jumped into F1 in the early 80's teaming with several teams (notibly Williams and McLaren), early results (83-86) were not good. Then they went on to dominate the sport by designing and developing engines that won six straight contructor championships from 1986-1991 beating world leaders. Again they did it all on their own desiging and developing everything from nothing not buying a F1 engine business like MB did (Illmor). Today Honda like Toyota are struggling to get their entire car F1 approach to winning.
You seem really intent on only consistently critizing Acura/Honda without acknoledging any of their achievements. You do not seem to mention MB going through a tremendously bad period from the mid 90's to mid 00's with poor quality control and reliability which their CEO openingly talked about.
In general Honda is regarded as the risk taker from the Japanese auto press (Toyota are seem as the conservative ones). In all MB, BMW, Honda, and Toyota are all seen as leaders in their respective spaces in the auto market.
Also Honda jumped into F1 in the early 80's teaming with several teams (notibly Williams and McLaren), early results (83-86) were not good. Then they went on to dominate the sport by designing and developing engines that won six straight contructor championships from 1986-1991 beating world leaders. Again they did it all on their own desiging and developing everything from nothing not buying a F1 engine business like MB did (Illmor). Today Honda like Toyota are struggling to get their entire car F1 approach to winning.
You seem really intent on only consistently critizing Acura/Honda without acknoledging any of their achievements. You do not seem to mention MB going through a tremendously bad period from the mid 90's to mid 00's with poor quality control and reliability which their CEO openingly talked about.
In general Honda is regarded as the risk taker from the Japanese auto press (Toyota are seem as the conservative ones). In all MB, BMW, Honda, and Toyota are all seen as leaders in their respective spaces in the auto market.
11-20-2008, 02:18 PM
#374
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Here is the Honda F1 story (maybe I did the monetary conversion wrong):
Honda burns record £147m in F1
By Christian Sylt and Caroline Reid
Published: November 18 2008 02:00 | Last updated: November 19 2008 15:36
The Honda Formula One team has recorded the highest costs of any organisation in the sport, according to its latest accounts.
Last year the team finished eighth in the world championship but burned through £147m, with almost all the funding provided by the Japanese car company that owns the team.
This comes amid desperate cost-cutting proposals put forward by the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile, F1's governing body, over the past year including capping team budgets and introducing standard engines.
Turnover at the Northamptonshire-based team rose 23 per cent to £149.3m but just £7m of this is believed to have come from sponsorship. Last year saw the team introduce a radical logo-free livery on to its car, which is instead covered with an image of the globe to promote an environmental charity.
The team's biggest cost is the development and production of about 80 V8 engines but a close second is the £35.3m spent on employees. During 2007 Honda boosted its numbers by adding 102 design, manufacturing and engineering staff to give it a total of 667 - more than any of the other six UK-based F1 teams. In contrast, this year's winner of the F1 drivers’ championship, McLaren, has 570 staff and costs of £125.7m.
The accounts state that Honda will continue to fund the team throughout the 2009 F1 season. Its next set of results are likely to show even higher costs. This year Ross Brawn, the former Ferrari technical director, joined Honda as its new team boss and it is investing heavily in the energy recovery technology that will be introduced to F1 next year.
Nick Fry, the Honda team's chief executive, said recently that "the budgets for the top teams are in excess of $300m. While that is sustainable for a team like Honda, we recognise that others cannot compete at that level."
Just last month the Williams team revealed that it had suffered net losses of £50m over the past two years and had trebled net debt to keep running. The team is the only one in F1 not to be owned by a billionaire or car manufacturer and it will be eagerly awaiting the FIA's decision on how F1 will cut costs.
The FIA has put out a tender to produce a standard engine. This closed on November 7. However, several car companies involved with F1, including Ferrari and Toyota, have suggested they might leave the sport if a standard engine is introduced. This would be ironic since the FIA's goal is to prevent the F1 grid from shrinking and, echoing Mr Fry's comment, the six teams owned by car manufacturers are the best able to afford competing in F1.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2008
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/aa7198e2-b...0779fd18c.html
Honda burns record £147m in F1
By Christian Sylt and Caroline Reid
Published: November 18 2008 02:00 | Last updated: November 19 2008 15:36
The Honda Formula One team has recorded the highest costs of any organisation in the sport, according to its latest accounts.
Last year the team finished eighth in the world championship but burned through £147m, with almost all the funding provided by the Japanese car company that owns the team.
This comes amid desperate cost-cutting proposals put forward by the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile, F1's governing body, over the past year including capping team budgets and introducing standard engines.
Turnover at the Northamptonshire-based team rose 23 per cent to £149.3m but just £7m of this is believed to have come from sponsorship. Last year saw the team introduce a radical logo-free livery on to its car, which is instead covered with an image of the globe to promote an environmental charity.
The team's biggest cost is the development and production of about 80 V8 engines but a close second is the £35.3m spent on employees. During 2007 Honda boosted its numbers by adding 102 design, manufacturing and engineering staff to give it a total of 667 - more than any of the other six UK-based F1 teams. In contrast, this year's winner of the F1 drivers’ championship, McLaren, has 570 staff and costs of £125.7m.
The accounts state that Honda will continue to fund the team throughout the 2009 F1 season. Its next set of results are likely to show even higher costs. This year Ross Brawn, the former Ferrari technical director, joined Honda as its new team boss and it is investing heavily in the energy recovery technology that will be introduced to F1 next year.
Nick Fry, the Honda team's chief executive, said recently that "the budgets for the top teams are in excess of $300m. While that is sustainable for a team like Honda, we recognise that others cannot compete at that level."
Just last month the Williams team revealed that it had suffered net losses of £50m over the past two years and had trebled net debt to keep running. The team is the only one in F1 not to be owned by a billionaire or car manufacturer and it will be eagerly awaiting the FIA's decision on how F1 will cut costs.
The FIA has put out a tender to produce a standard engine. This closed on November 7. However, several car companies involved with F1, including Ferrari and Toyota, have suggested they might leave the sport if a standard engine is introduced. This would be ironic since the FIA's goal is to prevent the F1 grid from shrinking and, echoing Mr Fry's comment, the six teams owned by car manufacturers are the best able to afford competing in F1.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2008
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/aa7198e2-b...0779fd18c.html
11-20-2008, 02:34 PM
#375
AZ Community Team
Actually, Honda built the NSX, Acura only rebadged it and the NSX was conceived and designed before Acura ever existed. The NSX was Mr. Honda's baby. When he died, all of the risks, engineering, hopes, and abilities that car embodied died with him and we enjoyed crappy cars like the 2G RL, Vigor, SLX, etc... Only recently has this been reversed to come extent but the discussion was not about the NSX, was it?
I brought up Honda burning through $350 million on F1 because the discussion turned to the resources Honda does or does not have. Shore up your upscale division, first. And the number is known as it was reported in the Financial Times yesterday. I will provide you with a link to that story!
Honda is a more conservative company than Toyota. Toyota went full bore into the hybrids, V8s, introducing the Lexus brand to the entire world, and full size trucks (at their peril now) as well as throwing tons of money into Lexus in advertisements and expanding their product line-up while Honda held back money, refused to build V8s, and killed off several models of Acura because they couldn't figure out what to do. Honda also played it safe when they killed of the HSC. I think Honda used to be more daring when its founder was alive.
...
I brought up Honda burning through $350 million on F1 because the discussion turned to the resources Honda does or does not have. Shore up your upscale division, first. And the number is known as it was reported in the Financial Times yesterday. I will provide you with a link to that story!
Honda is a more conservative company than Toyota. Toyota went full bore into the hybrids, V8s, introducing the Lexus brand to the entire world, and full size trucks (at their peril now) as well as throwing tons of money into Lexus in advertisements and expanding their product line-up while Honda held back money, refused to build V8s, and killed off several models of Acura because they couldn't figure out what to do. Honda also played it safe when they killed of the HSC. I think Honda used to be more daring when its founder was alive.
...
English Pounds 147M = $218M US
If you really want to understand the history and knowledge of Honda I suggest.
http://www.amazon.com/End-Detroit-Th.../dp/0385507690
They have a few chapters dedicated to Toyota and Honda companies. It also discuess in pretty good detail the founders and company cultures. If you knew anything about Toyota, you would know the ToyoDa family was in the fabric loom business and one son wanted to start a auto company. The elder Toyoda agreed but as a conservative measure he had to name it Toyota in case it failed and would not tarnish the good Toyoda business name in looms.
Now I fully agree with the moderator and need to get back on topic. So I Googled the topic and so far AcuraZine is the leading find. So until some nice auto media folks test and compare the TL SH-SWD, 335iX, and heck maybe a nice G37AWD we'll just have to wait.
11-20-2008, 02:47 PM
#376
AZ Community Team
Must stay on topic, must stay on topic....
11-20-2008, 03:17 PM
#377
My only car is a Bus
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Republik of Kalifornia
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I don't need to know Toyota was started as a fabric business to know they outsell Honda, have more cash than Honda, have a larger upscale division, produce more models, and their brand is known around the world.
I'm sure there will be a Car & Driver/Road and Track test drive of the BMW 3, Acura TL, Infiniti G, Mercedes-Benz C, and Lexus IS pretty soon... not that this will show much because the press always picks the BMW.
I'm sure there will be a Car & Driver/Road and Track test drive of the BMW 3, Acura TL, Infiniti G, Mercedes-Benz C, and Lexus IS pretty soon... not that this will show much because the press always picks the BMW.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/aa7198e2-b...nclick_check=1
English Pounds 147M = $218M US
If you really want to understand the history and knowledge of Honda I suggest.
http://www.amazon.com/End-Detroit-Three-American-Market/dp/0385507690
They have a few chapters dedicated to Toyota and Honda companies. It also discuess in pretty good detail the founders and company cultures. If you knew anything about Toyota, you would know the ToyoDa family was in the fabric loom business and one son wanted to start a auto company. The elder Toyoda agreed but as a conservative measure he had to name it Toyota in case it failed and would not tarnish the good Toyoda business name in looms.
Now I fully agree with the moderator and need to get back on topic. So I Googled the topic and so far AcuraZine is the leading find. So until some nice auto media folks test and compare the TL SH-SWD, 335iX, and heck maybe a nice G37AWD we'll just have to wait.
English Pounds 147M = $218M US
If you really want to understand the history and knowledge of Honda I suggest.
They have a few chapters dedicated to Toyota and Honda companies. It also discuess in pretty good detail the founders and company cultures. If you knew anything about Toyota, you would know the ToyoDa family was in the fabric loom business and one son wanted to start a auto company. The elder Toyoda agreed but as a conservative measure he had to name it Toyota in case it failed and would not tarnish the good Toyoda business name in looms.
Now I fully agree with the moderator and need to get back on topic. So I Googled the topic and so far AcuraZine is the leading find. So until some nice auto media folks test and compare the TL SH-SWD, 335iX, and heck maybe a nice G37AWD we'll just have to wait.
11-20-2008, 04:24 PM
#378
I don't need to know Toyota was started as a fabric business to know they outsell Honda, have more cash than Honda, have a larger upscale division, produce more models, and their brand is known around the world.
I'm sure there will be a Car & Driver/Road and Track test drive of the BMW 3, Acura TL, Infiniti G, Mercedes-Benz C, and Lexus IS pretty soon... not that this will show much because the press always picks the BMW.
I'm sure there will be a Car & Driver/Road and Track test drive of the BMW 3, Acura TL, Infiniti G, Mercedes-Benz C, and Lexus IS pretty soon... not that this will show much because the press always picks the BMW.
as if theyre the best since slice bread and iphones! Did they fire you from Acura or something??!! JK
On a serious note, i work for honda/acura and ive driven almost anything. As far as im concerned......Acura makes a superior product. Styling is subjective and depends on the owner. I love the way my car looks and so do pontiac aztec owners.
I get enough performance, reliabilty, resale value and my cars dont break and i dont baby any of them. Not to mention i didnt have to break the bank to buy them.
11-20-2008, 04:40 PM
#379
My only car is a Bus
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Actually, the bank owns my Acura... I just make payments on it. 
I actually said I'm not a fan of Toyota/Lexus though they are a very successful company financially!
Honda has done many smart things over the years and I did say above that I consider them to be one of two leaders in the automotive world. Having sold Acuras for several years I became aware of feeling as though that brand was a sort of semi-neglected brother of Honda which affected my income so I split such as we knew we wouldn't get any new cars because Honda was coming up on 'their turn' for a new vehicle, etc...
I see tons of potential there but, unfortunately on the Acura side, it is not fully realized. Honda is the largest engine builder in the world I believe but, despite that, we never saw anything that could take a bite out of the big boys so we were also-rans. It's good that they really do think differently but a little less BS from Dick Colliver and a few more better products and advertising and maybe they would be doing better!
I think for the money, Acura does make a superior product but as I've been saying in vain here when you're trying to be Tier 1 'for the money' matters less than the intangibles of luxury. It took me moving to a true luxury brand and seeing/driving/selling their products and meeting their customers to learn just how different the mentalities are, right or wrong.
I'd buy a second Acura if they built a TL coupe without the proboscis or if I needed a sedan I'd choose an 06 RL.
I actually said I'm not a fan of Toyota/Lexus though they are a very successful company financially!Honda has done many smart things over the years and I did say above that I consider them to be one of two leaders in the automotive world. Having sold Acuras for several years I became aware of feeling as though that brand was a sort of semi-neglected brother of Honda which affected my income so I split such as we knew we wouldn't get any new cars because Honda was coming up on 'their turn' for a new vehicle, etc...
I see tons of potential there but, unfortunately on the Acura side, it is not fully realized. Honda is the largest engine builder in the world I believe but, despite that, we never saw anything that could take a bite out of the big boys so we were also-rans. It's good that they really do think differently but a little less BS from Dick Colliver and a few more better products and advertising and maybe they would be doing better!
I think for the money, Acura does make a superior product but as I've been saying in vain here when you're trying to be Tier 1 'for the money' matters less than the intangibles of luxury. It took me moving to a true luxury brand and seeing/driving/selling their products and meeting their customers to learn just how different the mentalities are, right or wrong.
I'd buy a second Acura if they built a TL coupe without the proboscis or if I needed a sedan I'd choose an 06 RL.
Dude do you still own an Acura?? Ive read all your posts and you are yet to say anything positive about Acura and/or Honda. All youve been doing is prasing the euro manufacturers and even toyota/lexus as if theyre the best since slice bread and iphones!
Did they fire you from Acura or something??!! JK
On a serious note, i work for honda/acura and ive driven almost anything. As far as im concerned......Acura makes a superior product. Styling is subjective and depends on the owner. I love the way my car looks and so do pontiac aztec owners.
I get enough performance, reliabilty, resale value and my cars dont break and i dont baby any of them. Not to mention i didnt have to break the bank to buy them.
as if theyre the best since slice bread and iphones! Did they fire you from Acura or something??!! JK
On a serious note, i work for honda/acura and ive driven almost anything. As far as im concerned......Acura makes a superior product. Styling is subjective and depends on the owner. I love the way my car looks and so do pontiac aztec owners.
I get enough performance, reliabilty, resale value and my cars dont break and i dont baby any of them. Not to mention i didnt have to break the bank to buy them.
11-20-2008, 04:45 PM
#380
Yah think?
How about a 3rd row with 1 inch more head room then the '09 TL's second row?
'09 Acura luxury sized rear seat
Head Room - 36.6
Leg Room - 36.2
Hip Room - 54.8
Shoulder Room - 56
Manual fold - no
Power fold - no
Cargo - 12.5 cu ft
'08 Expedition EL plain old truck 3rd row seat
Head Room - 38
Leg Room - 38
Hip Room - 52
Shoulder Room - 67
Manual fold - no
Power fold - Yes (individual fold for each seat) 60/40
Cargo - 42.6 cu ft
BTW I noticed a lot of your cut & past about how great the RL is compared to the real luxury brands is coming from 2005 reviews etc.
""2005 Acura RL
Second Place: Spoilsport Sedans"""
http://www.autointell.com/News-2004/...v-17-04-p9.htm
Honda Legend Wins Japan Car of the Year Award 2004-2005 and Most Advanced Technology Award
Do you have anything that's not four or five years old like '09 vs '09 items?
How about a 3rd row with 1 inch more head room then the '09 TL's second row?
'09 Acura luxury sized rear seat
Head Room - 36.6
Leg Room - 36.2
Hip Room - 54.8
Shoulder Room - 56
Manual fold - no
Power fold - no
Cargo - 12.5 cu ft
'08 Expedition EL plain old truck 3rd row seat
Head Room - 38
Leg Room - 38
Hip Room - 52
Shoulder Room - 67
Manual fold - no
Power fold - Yes (individual fold for each seat) 60/40
Cargo - 42.6 cu ft
BTW I noticed a lot of your cut & past about how great the RL is compared to the real luxury brands is coming from 2005 reviews etc.
""2005 Acura RL
Second Place: Spoilsport Sedans"""
http://www.autointell.com/News-2004/...v-17-04-p9.htm
Honda Legend Wins Japan Car of the Year Award 2004-2005 and Most Advanced Technology Award
Do you have anything that's not four or five years old like '09 vs '09 items?
Thats what i have been saying consistently in this thread. truth has come out finally in resale values. No amount of financial gimmicks can save BMW.
http://wot.motortrend.com/6360402/au...rds/index.html
.Automotive Lease Guide Residual Value Awards are an important tool you can use when car shopping. Honda has been crowned the top brand for the sixth consecutive year and its subsidiary, Acura, has been crowned the top luxury brand for the first time.
Top Residual Value by Brand:
1 HONDA
2 SUBARU
3 VOLKSWAGEN
4 TOYOTA
5 NISSAN
6 MAZDA
7 SUZUKI
8 SATURN
9 PONTIAC
Top Residual Value by Luxury Brand:
1 ACURA
2 LEXUS
3 AUDI
4 INFINITI
5 LAND ROVER
6 BMW
7 PORSCHE
8 MERCEDES BENZ
.Automotive Lease Guide Residual Value Awards are an important tool you can use when car shopping. Honda has been crowned the top brand for the sixth consecutive year and its subsidiary, Acura, has been crowned the top luxury brand for the first time.
Top Residual Value by Brand:
1 HONDA
2 SUBARU
3 VOLKSWAGEN
4 TOYOTA
5 NISSAN
6 MAZDA
7 SUZUKI
8 SATURN
9 PONTIAC
Top Residual Value by Luxury Brand:
1 ACURA
2 LEXUS
3 AUDI
4 INFINITI
5 LAND ROVER
6 BMW
7 PORSCHE
8 MERCEDES BENZ
TL is difficult to compare because it is not global in other markets as RL/TSX.
11-20-2008, 05:20 PM
#381
actually, the bank owns my acura... I just make payments on it. I actually said i'm not a fan of toyota/lexus though they are a very successful company financially!
Honda has done many smart things over the years and i did say above that i consider them to be one of two leaders in the automotive world. Having sold acuras for several years i became aware of feeling as though that brand was a sort of semi-neglected brother of honda which affected my income so i split such as we knew we wouldn't get any new cars because honda was coming up on 'their turn' for a new vehicle, etc...
I see tons of potential there but, unfortunately on the acura side, it is not fully realized. Honda is the largest engine builder in the world i believe but, despite that, we never saw anything that could take a bite out of the big boys so we were also-rans. It's good that they really do think differently but a little less bs from dick colliver and a few more better products and advertising and maybe they would be doing better!
I think for the money, acura does make a superior product but as i've been saying in vain here when you're trying to be tier 1 'for the money' matters less than the intangibles of luxury. It took me moving to a true luxury brand and seeing/driving/selling their products and meeting their customers to learn just how different the mentalities are, right or wrong.
I'd buy a second acura if they built a tl coupe without the proboscis or if i needed a sedan i'd choose an 06 rl.
I actually said i'm not a fan of toyota/lexus though they are a very successful company financially!Honda has done many smart things over the years and i did say above that i consider them to be one of two leaders in the automotive world. Having sold acuras for several years i became aware of feeling as though that brand was a sort of semi-neglected brother of honda which affected my income so i split such as we knew we wouldn't get any new cars because honda was coming up on 'their turn' for a new vehicle, etc...
I see tons of potential there but, unfortunately on the acura side, it is not fully realized. Honda is the largest engine builder in the world i believe but, despite that, we never saw anything that could take a bite out of the big boys so we were also-rans. It's good that they really do think differently but a little less bs from dick colliver and a few more better products and advertising and maybe they would be doing better!
I think for the money, acura does make a superior product but as i've been saying in vain here when you're trying to be tier 1 'for the money' matters less than the intangibles of luxury. It took me moving to a true luxury brand and seeing/driving/selling their products and meeting their customers to learn just how different the mentalities are, right or wrong.
I'd buy a second acura if they built a tl coupe without the proboscis or if i needed a sedan i'd choose an 06 rl.
agree with u there 100%.
11-20-2008, 06:09 PM
#382
If you only want a nice luxurious car with a lot of gadgets, that is reliable for a good price - the TL is a great car. If you want to get behind the wheel and really DRIVE it, you will be much happier with the BMW. Sorry.
the TL is a great car - but in most things in life you get what you pay for. PERIOD.
if the TL was honestly a better car, Acura would charge more for it. yeah, people will pay more b/c of the prestige factor, and that plays into price - but part of that is all b/c the car IS better - which is why it has a higher prestige factor. it's not like the 335 is a POS and a bunch of stupid snobs all got together and said lets pay a lot of money for a car that's not really that good.. no. one thing I knwo about many rich peole is that while some are stupid - a lot of them are rich for a reason and they know good $hit.
they don't smoke cheap crap cigars, they don't drink two buck chuck, and they don't drive civics. they consume nice stuff.
if price is NOT a factor people will pick the 335. for $8k more i'd rather get the 335.
11-20-2008, 08:00 PM
#383
Not just a smell
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A lot of them do in fact eat at McD's, shop at dollar stores, etc. And the really rich do buy nice stuff, but a $200k Porsche is pocket change when you're taking home $30 million a year. Kinda like an average person buying an iPod Nano.
Where I work, the BMW 3 series owners are young professionals with some attitude. The car is basically a sign that shows they're not really rich enough to afford a true luxury car like the 5 series for a daily driver and a true sports car like a Porsche Cayman for a weekend toy. It also shows they do not have the financial wisdom to reach a point where they can afford such luxuries. People who make more than them are driving Accords and Camry's while wisely investing their money.
So,
new shiney 335i = not so rich and not so smart.
11-20-2008, 08:31 PM
#384
I don't need to drive them back to back to KNOW the 335 is a BETTER car if you have ANY care at ALL for handling and power. Go run the 335 around a set of twisties, and do some rolling acceleration runs. You will RAPE the TL. RAPE IT.
If you only want a nice luxurious car with a lot of gadgets, that is reliable for a good price - the TL is a great car. If you want to get behind the wheel and really DRIVE it, you will be much happier with the BMW. Sorry.
the TL is a great car - but in most things in life you get what you pay for. PERIOD.
if the TL was honestly a better car, Acura would charge more for it. yeah, people will pay more b/c of the prestige factor, and that plays into price - but part of that is all b/c the car IS better - which is why it has a higher prestige factor. it's not like the 335 is a POS and a bunch of stupid snobs all got together and said lets pay a lot of money for a car that's not really that good.. no. one thing I knwo about many rich peole is that while some are stupid - a lot of them are rich for a reason and they know good $hit.
they don't smoke cheap crap cigars, they don't drink two buck chuck, and they don't drive civics. they consume nice stuff.
if price is NOT a factor people will pick the 335. for $8k more i'd rather get the 335.
If you only want a nice luxurious car with a lot of gadgets, that is reliable for a good price - the TL is a great car. If you want to get behind the wheel and really DRIVE it, you will be much happier with the BMW. Sorry.
the TL is a great car - but in most things in life you get what you pay for. PERIOD.
if the TL was honestly a better car, Acura would charge more for it. yeah, people will pay more b/c of the prestige factor, and that plays into price - but part of that is all b/c the car IS better - which is why it has a higher prestige factor. it's not like the 335 is a POS and a bunch of stupid snobs all got together and said lets pay a lot of money for a car that's not really that good.. no. one thing I knwo about many rich peole is that while some are stupid - a lot of them are rich for a reason and they know good $hit.
they don't smoke cheap crap cigars, they don't drink two buck chuck, and they don't drive civics. they consume nice stuff.
if price is NOT a factor people will pick the 335. for $8k more i'd rather get the 335.
u simply cant compare prices of things developed in Germany with Japan nor you can make decisions based on these.
BMW 335 is 178 inch car and its good handling for that size. TL is 194 inch car supplying more superior ride with space, refinement and telematics. The only down side it is not a global car and manufactured in US for most part. SH-AWD will balance the handling portion. I see no reason TL will far worse than RL. Engine is not turbocharged so low end torque like BMW is not there. on stock tires. BMW 335XI cant pull more than 0.89G.
11-20-2008, 11:30 PM
#386
Three Wheelin'
You're describing the stupid/criminal ones actually. The smart/legal rich get rich because they're wise with their money.
A lot of them do in fact eat at McD's, shop at dollar stores, etc. And the really rich do buy nice stuff, but a $200k Porsche is pocket change when you're taking home $30 million a year. Kinda like an average person buying an iPod Nano.
Where I work, the BMW 3 series owners are young professionals with some attitude. The car is basically a sign that shows they're not really rich enough to afford a true luxury car like the 5 series for a daily driver and a true sports car like a Porsche Cayman for a weekend toy. It also shows they do not have the financial wisdom to reach a point where they can afford such luxuries. People who make more than them are driving Accords and Camry's while wisely investing their money.
So,
new shiney 335i = not so rich and not so smart.
A lot of them do in fact eat at McD's, shop at dollar stores, etc. And the really rich do buy nice stuff, but a $200k Porsche is pocket change when you're taking home $30 million a year. Kinda like an average person buying an iPod Nano.
Where I work, the BMW 3 series owners are young professionals with some attitude. The car is basically a sign that shows they're not really rich enough to afford a true luxury car like the 5 series for a daily driver and a true sports car like a Porsche Cayman for a weekend toy. It also shows they do not have the financial wisdom to reach a point where they can afford such luxuries. People who make more than them are driving Accords and Camry's while wisely investing their money.
So,
new shiney 335i = not so rich and not so smart.
You're exactly right, Fishy. One of my neighbors is a multi-millionaire and is a CEO of his own manufacturing firm. He drives an old '98 Volvo station wagon (and wears clothes that look like something from a flea market). I asked him once why he doesn't drive a nice, fancy car.....he said that he prefers to invest in bigger and better things....he owns real estate and businesses in Asia, South America, and the Caribbean.
11-21-2008, 12:08 AM
#387
You'll Never Walk Alone
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 9,492
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518 Posts
I don't need to drive them back to back to KNOW the 335 is a BETTER car if you have ANY care at ALL for handling and power. Go run the 335 around a set of twisties, and do some rolling acceleration runs. You will RAPE the TL. RAPE IT.
If you only want a nice luxurious car with a lot of gadgets, that is reliable for a good price - the TL is a great car. If you want to get behind the wheel and really DRIVE it, you will be much happier with the BMW. Sorry.
the TL is a great car - but in most things in life you get what you pay for. PERIOD.
if the TL was honestly a better car, Acura would charge more for it. yeah, people will pay more b/c of the prestige factor, and that plays into price - but part of that is all b/c the car IS better - which is why it has a higher prestige factor. it's not like the 335 is a POS and a bunch of stupid snobs all got together and said lets pay a lot of money for a car that's not really that good.. no. one thing I knwo about many rich peole is that while some are stupid - a lot of them are rich for a reason and they know good $hit.
they don't smoke cheap crap cigars, they don't drink two buck chuck, and they don't drive civics. they consume nice stuff.
if price is NOT a factor people will pick the 335. for $8k more i'd rather get the 335.
If you only want a nice luxurious car with a lot of gadgets, that is reliable for a good price - the TL is a great car. If you want to get behind the wheel and really DRIVE it, you will be much happier with the BMW. Sorry.
the TL is a great car - but in most things in life you get what you pay for. PERIOD.
if the TL was honestly a better car, Acura would charge more for it. yeah, people will pay more b/c of the prestige factor, and that plays into price - but part of that is all b/c the car IS better - which is why it has a higher prestige factor. it's not like the 335 is a POS and a bunch of stupid snobs all got together and said lets pay a lot of money for a car that's not really that good.. no. one thing I knwo about many rich peole is that while some are stupid - a lot of them are rich for a reason and they know good $hit.
they don't smoke cheap crap cigars, they don't drink two buck chuck, and they don't drive civics. they consume nice stuff.
if price is NOT a factor people will pick the 335. for $8k more i'd rather get the 335.
11-21-2008, 12:15 AM
#388
My only car is a Bus
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A lot of poseurs drive BMWs and Mercedes but the worst offender seems to be Audi. But there can be many tax advantages for those who lease, too so generalizations like that are not very informative although they do appear to contain a small degree of truth but maybe not enough to generalize about the entire brand. Instead, it sounds like somebody is trying to justify something to themselves.
The bottom line is people go German or Japanese for specific reasons, some of which are not logical. One issue I have been wrestling with is how differently a BMW or Mercedes-Benz looks if you lift the hood vs. a Japanese car in terms of the quality of materials, how the hoses/wires are routed, even how the hood is held in place (BMW and Mercedes use counter-sprung latches whereas Japanese cars use one scissor joint in the center of the hood), as well as how the trunk is finished, etc... This type of attention to small detail doesn't impact upon the driving experience per se but it does show where some extra care and money is spent. The Japanese design cars within a half millimeter of where they need to be to get the job done. Does this make a better overall car? I don't know but it is something to ponder. The one exception I've seen is the BMW X3 which is of shit quality in these areas.
For example... if you look under an Acura/Lexus hood you'll see how the seams are spot welded whereas if you look under a BMW/Mercedes hood you'll see how it's welded along the entire seam then the weld is typically finished off. Another thing is the paint under the hood is normally coated in clearcoat and shines whereas with the Acura/Lexus it is not (I haven't checked an Infiniti so I don't know but probably the same knowing Nissan's low quality of materials.
The bottom line is people go German or Japanese for specific reasons, some of which are not logical. One issue I have been wrestling with is how differently a BMW or Mercedes-Benz looks if you lift the hood vs. a Japanese car in terms of the quality of materials, how the hoses/wires are routed, even how the hood is held in place (BMW and Mercedes use counter-sprung latches whereas Japanese cars use one scissor joint in the center of the hood), as well as how the trunk is finished, etc... This type of attention to small detail doesn't impact upon the driving experience per se but it does show where some extra care and money is spent. The Japanese design cars within a half millimeter of where they need to be to get the job done. Does this make a better overall car? I don't know but it is something to ponder. The one exception I've seen is the BMW X3 which is of shit quality in these areas.
For example... if you look under an Acura/Lexus hood you'll see how the seams are spot welded whereas if you look under a BMW/Mercedes hood you'll see how it's welded along the entire seam then the weld is typically finished off. Another thing is the paint under the hood is normally coated in clearcoat and shines whereas with the Acura/Lexus it is not (I haven't checked an Infiniti so I don't know but probably the same knowing Nissan's low quality of materials.
Last edited by CL6; 11-21-2008 at 12:19 AM.
11-21-2008, 09:09 AM
#389
Not just a smell
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A lot of poseurs drive BMWs and Mercedes but the worst offender seems to be Audi. But there can be many tax advantages for those who lease, too so generalizations like that are not very informative although they do appear to contain a small degree of truth but maybe not enough to generalize about the entire brand. Instead, it sounds like somebody is trying to justify something to themselves.
As far as tax advantages, etc., if you're incorporated, then the business' money is always better spent re-investing in the business' growth rather than expensing a fancy car.
...even how the hood is held in place (BMW and Mercedes use counter-sprung latches whereas Japanese cars use one scissor joint in the center of the hood), as well as how the trunk is finished, etc......
...if you look under an Acura/Lexus hood you'll see how the seams are spot welded whereas if you look under a BMW/Mercedes hood you'll see how it's welded along the entire seam then the weld is typically finished off...
...if you look under an Acura/Lexus hood you'll see how the seams are spot welded whereas if you look under a BMW/Mercedes hood you'll see how it's welded along the entire seam then the weld is typically finished off...
And all this attention to little details is fine as long as the big details are taken care of. I've never heard of an Acura's hood fallling apart because its only spot welded. But there are many examples of engine failures and electrical "gremlins" troubling BMW's.
11-21-2008, 12:43 PM
#390
I have a friend with the German engineered VW Passat and when he opens the trunk lid, it counter-levers and drops the layer of snow/ice buildup on the lid right into the trunk. Its very well made so it does this every time.
And all this attention to little details is fine as long as the big details are taken care of. I've never heard of an Acura's hood falling apart because its only spot welded. But there are many examples of engine failures and electrical "gremlins" troubling BMW's.
And all this attention to little details is fine as long as the big details are taken care of. I've never heard of an Acura's hood falling apart because its only spot welded. But there are many examples of engine failures and electrical "gremlins" troubling BMW's.
You need to go over to the TSX board and see windshield mouldings flying off their cars.....some on their first rides home from the dealers. Lets hope that they dont have future serious problems with the engine knocking/pinging problem that Acura is ignoring also.
https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-tsx-problems-fixes-145/whats-going-my-car-680071/
Acura hoods may not fall apart but it may have something to do with their highly advanced and luxurious "Hood prop rod system" that they use on some of their line.
All manufacturers have their issues, weather its BMW's engine giving problems or Honda's transmissions blowing up.
As far as the "poseurs" topic is concerned that happens in just about every line and is more dependant on the individual.....i know a lot of Acura owners that fit in this category also.
11-21-2008, 12:45 PM
#391
My only car is a Bus
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Notice how I said a lot of poseurs drive BMW/MB (i.e. 3 and C) but a lot don't as well. As far as Tier 1... an M3 runs up to 65k and a C63 runs up to 68k so that's tough to say whether the entire model or just the base models are Tier 1 or not. I've sold a couple of C63s and those people would disagree with your statement about it not being a Tier 1 car.
I'm not there to tell people how to spend their money or their company's money... many people have a car allowance so if they want to spend it leasing a nicer car more power to them because that's what makes this country great is you have the choice!
Notice I didn't include VW (Virtually Worthless) in my example! And I can cite many examples of "gremlins" in Acuras destroying people's transmissions, batteries, nav systems, etc... but you missed my point thanks anyway though!
Spot welding gets the job done but it also lets salty water into the seams between the metal and it's tough to say that spot welding is just as strong as seam welding. But having a single scissor joint holding your hood down vs. 3 different anchoring points is obviously not as good in the event of an accident this is common sense. Many little things do add up even if you don't see value in it lots of people do! Nailing two pieces of wood together works as well as dovetailing them but some people appreciate the extra steps involved.
I'd be upset if I shelled out $37,000.00 for an RDX and I had to use a $1 prop rod to hold my hood up!
I'm not there to tell people how to spend their money or their company's money... many people have a car allowance so if they want to spend it leasing a nicer car more power to them because that's what makes this country great is you have the choice!
Notice I didn't include VW (Virtually Worthless) in my example! And I can cite many examples of "gremlins" in Acuras destroying people's transmissions, batteries, nav systems, etc... but you missed my point thanks anyway though!
Spot welding gets the job done but it also lets salty water into the seams between the metal and it's tough to say that spot welding is just as strong as seam welding. But having a single scissor joint holding your hood down vs. 3 different anchoring points is obviously not as good in the event of an accident this is common sense. Many little things do add up even if you don't see value in it lots of people do! Nailing two pieces of wood together works as well as dovetailing them but some people appreciate the extra steps involved.
I'd be upset if I shelled out $37,000.00 for an RDX and I had to use a $1 prop rod to hold my hood up!
Seems like you're generalizing more than anyone else with your German vs. Japanese categorization. The "poseurs" as you mention tend to drive the entry level BMW/Mercedes cars. BMW 3 series/MB C class are not tier 1 luxury cars.
As far as tax advantages, etc., if you're incorporated, then the business' money is always better spent re-investing in the business' growth rather than expensing a fancy car.
I have a friend with the German engineered VW Passat and when he opens the trunk lid, it counter-levers and drops the layer of snow/ice buildup on the lid right into the trunk. Its very well made so it does this every time.
And all this attention to little details is fine as long as the big details are taken care of. I've never heard of an Acura's hood fallling apart because its only spot welded. But there are many examples of engine failures and electrical "gremlins" troubling BMW's.
As far as tax advantages, etc., if you're incorporated, then the business' money is always better spent re-investing in the business' growth rather than expensing a fancy car.
I have a friend with the German engineered VW Passat and when he opens the trunk lid, it counter-levers and drops the layer of snow/ice buildup on the lid right into the trunk. Its very well made so it does this every time.
And all this attention to little details is fine as long as the big details are taken care of. I've never heard of an Acura's hood fallling apart because its only spot welded. But there are many examples of engine failures and electrical "gremlins" troubling BMW's.
11-21-2008, 11:13 PM
#392
Racer
sorry CL6 has beat you on most of these arguements.
You need to google a couple of your points.
I am not knocking Acura at all, they provide a near luxury car, great sporting feel, strong quality, excellent reliabliity with incredible standard features and at very, very competitive price point. That is the bliss of Acura.
You need to google a couple of your points.
I am not knocking Acura at all, they provide a near luxury car, great sporting feel, strong quality, excellent reliabliity with incredible standard features and at very, very competitive price point. That is the bliss of Acura.
LX-570/Landcruiser certainly can sit 8. Both G and GL are considered luxury.
It has the gadgets of luxury cars just like G37.
Daimler truck business has collapsed and u have to undertand u cannot judge firm by few quarters of profits associated with new S and C class launch. Honda has made fortune over past 30 years continously on a scale that only Toyota can match. U cannot compare resource available to Honda with MB. It is longer terms sustainability that matters and on that basis the global supply chain of parts and designers.
Honda perfectly understood that Luxury market is too small to throw money over it on scale neceassary so approach is bit conservative. Just look at collapse of Lexus sales with amount of investment they made. Acura is byproduct of Honda of growth. Honda is building V8 and all kind of diesels for Asian/European market from SUVs to Cars. so naturally Acura will progress with it.
As i said it is a name change without substance.
U refuse to recognize that Acura/Honda has luxury brand vehicle even if the whole world will tell you. what do u think about Honda S2000. why it has such good resale value compared to BMW Z3.
Honda does not need turbo charging or V8 to produce similar level of refinement.
This person has recognize the problem of people who confused luxury with brand. MB A class or C180 is not luxury car. It is the individual vehicles that matters. Acura RSX is not luxury vehicle but Honda S2000 is luxury vehicle.
It has the gadgets of luxury cars just like G37.
Daimler truck business has collapsed and u have to undertand u cannot judge firm by few quarters of profits associated with new S and C class launch. Honda has made fortune over past 30 years continously on a scale that only Toyota can match. U cannot compare resource available to Honda with MB. It is longer terms sustainability that matters and on that basis the global supply chain of parts and designers.
Honda perfectly understood that Luxury market is too small to throw money over it on scale neceassary so approach is bit conservative. Just look at collapse of Lexus sales with amount of investment they made. Acura is byproduct of Honda of growth. Honda is building V8 and all kind of diesels for Asian/European market from SUVs to Cars. so naturally Acura will progress with it.
As i said it is a name change without substance.
U refuse to recognize that Acura/Honda has luxury brand vehicle even if the whole world will tell you. what do u think about Honda S2000. why it has such good resale value compared to BMW Z3.
Honda does not need turbo charging or V8 to produce similar level of refinement.
This person has recognize the problem of people who confused luxury with brand. MB A class or C180 is not luxury car. It is the individual vehicles that matters. Acura RSX is not luxury vehicle but Honda S2000 is luxury vehicle.
11-22-2008, 01:36 AM
#393
sorry CL6 has beat you on most of these arguements.
You need to google a couple of your points.
I am not knocking Acura at all, they provide a near luxury car, great sporting feel, strong quality, excellent reliabliity with incredible standard features and at very, very competitive price point. That is the bliss of Acura.
You need to google a couple of your points.
I am not knocking Acura at all, they provide a near luxury car, great sporting feel, strong quality, excellent reliabliity with incredible standard features and at very, very competitive price point. That is the bliss of Acura.
2009 TSX. Show me any other 4 cylinder with similar NVH figures on stock tires.
http://www.edmunds.com/acura/tsx/2009/testdrive.html
Handling Rating: Average
Db @ Idle: 47.2
Db @ Full Throttle: 75
Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 65.5
Handling Rating: Average
Db @ Idle: 47.2
Db @ Full Throttle: 75
Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 65.5
http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/5series/2008/testdrive.html
Db @ Idle: 47.4
Db @ Full Throttle: 71.4
Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 65.4
Db @ Idle: 47.4
Db @ Full Throttle: 71.4
Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 65.4
http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/3series/2008/testdrive.html
Db @ Idle: 42.7
Db @ Full Throttle: 76.0
Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 68.0
Db @ Idle: 42.7
Db @ Full Throttle: 76.0
Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 68.0
http://www.edmunds.com/mercedesbenz/...testdrive.html
Db @ Idle: 43.6
Db @ Full Throttle: 70.8
Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 65.8
Db @ Idle: 43.6
Db @ Full Throttle: 70.8
Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 65.8
11-22-2008, 07:09 AM
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