BEAR-AvHistory

The car is pretty quick & the 5-60 should be what the average Joe can expect @ 0-60. 0-60 & 1/4 times from a magazine involve posting the best of many times + a lot of abuse.

On the size thing an Accord is bigger then my car so I don't see the TLX being my size. They can cut some overhang but are still limited to the basic Accord package size constraints.

Edward'TLS

Holy smokes. The new Accord's are quick. These acceleration numbers are right in the C350 and the 335i territories.

Mike T.

Sorry my mistake. My Tl was a 2005. My Grand Sport was 2010.

g37guy01

Yeah, that's why I believe the consumer will not be able to replicate these numbers, or at a cost of shortening the life of the life of the drivetrain. Or the numbers are skewed based on some temperature, climate, altitude number.

Either way, the numbers are bogus.

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

In your view, what are the real numbers with these new Accord's ?

JM2010 SH-AWD

Or it could be that the new ED powerplants pack a lot of punch in a lightened chassis. I didn't test the cars - just reporting what C&D found. No question hard-launching cars like the mags do will shorten the life of the drivetrain, but that's how they test all cars. So the numbers are apples to apples compared to other C&D test results. By that measure, these are very good acceleration times.

I have not driven our Accord hard like this, but I can report that it feels unusually lively for a 4 cylinder family hauler sedan. It bodes well for the TLX, which presumably will be on the same platform.

Edward'TLS

Agree. If C&D tests the new Accord like hell to obtain those excellent numbers, it must also have tested all other vehicles like hell, in order to obtain all other test results.

Thus, all other test vehicles will have the drivetrains shortened in the exact same way.

There is no reason why C&D trashed the new Accord but pampered other vehicles just for some deliberate skewed results.

g37guy01

Of course any scenario is possible. Real world numbers will be coming out for all newly designed models across the board. I'm sure with these new models the rags take special care to bust them up to get the best numbers possible. And as I said, some of them apply normalization formulae to these numbers.

The accord may very well faster than the camry. That's not the point. 5.6 is not believable, imo, but as I said the "real" truth will be known.

NVMYT

Accord? If you didn't know it was an Accord, it could just as well be the interior of the new Odyssey.


Or this? Absolutely beautiful if you ask me.[/QUOTE]

TL? If you didn't know it was a TL, it could just as well be the interior of the MDX, RDX, TSX or ILX.

NVMYT

It's really interesting how all you Acura (Honda) owners are dogging the quality or build material of a Honda. Ironic! All of your vehicles are made in Ohio by HONDA, not Acura. Being stationed in Japan for 10 years, I had the chance to visit the Toyota, Nissan and Honda parts and manufacturing plants. Awesome sight to see! However, there isn't any separation for manufacturing parts for Lexus, Infiniti or Acura. They are all built together by the same people using the same material...just different styles. In fact, your Acura or Lexus vehicles are badged Honda and Toyota outside the US.

In addition, when we went back to the states, my wife (she's Japanese) was amazed how much a Honda vehicle could sell for in the US. Mainly, because here in Japan, Honda is equivalent to Hyundai in the US. Not trying to dog-out Honda, I have been loyal to Honda for a long time, I’m just writing the truth here. In Japan, Toyota is King, then Nissan and if you have to have a new car, but you don't have much money, you buy a Honda…and that is a fact!

With that, while we were in the states, I drove a 2006 TL and my wife drove the 2004 Accord EX-L. Both vehicles were very well built and neither one gave us any trouble. But I could see first-hand that there wasn't a whole lot of difference in the two vehicles that commanded the 15K more for my TL. But I'm not so naïve not realize some folks buy/drive vehicles based on a brand/title and will pay more money for that name. Yes, I was one of them, I just had to have my TL and I really wanted my wife to drive the TSX, but she wanted to say some money and I’m telling you guys her fully loaded Accord EX-L rode/drove just as nice as my TL and had the same build quality for much less money!

So while you all can keep saying I drive an Acura and the Accord doesn't stack up, it just isn't true. You drive the TL for your reasons and some folks will drive the Accord for their reasons, and the Accord is only inferior in performance/price. Just remember, in the TL vs. New Accord debate, when you say the Accord material is inferior to the TL you're really dogging your own brand because they are truly both just Honda's. Now bring on the Nay-Sayers!

JM2010 SH-AWD

^^ We own both cars as well. The new Accord is really a good car and the pricing is quite reasonable. It is leaps and bounds better than the '12 we tested, but did not like.

That said, my TL has a number of small touches, material upgrades, features, etc., which -- if you added them all up indiviually -- you might say are not worth the extra $$. However, in the aggregate, they add up to a nicer, better driving experience. Some examples: ELS sound system (not available on Accord), SH-AWD (not available on Accord), premium Milano leather (AFAIK not available on Acccord), etc. This is not to knock the Accord, because we love ours, but while you pay more for a TL, you definitely get more (and believe me, I'm not into paying $$ for perceived "status.") Some may not care enough, or even notice, these improvements, and for them, it makes no sense to spend more $$ for the TL. But if you do, and can afford the extra money, it is worth it.

All that said, I looked at an Accord Touring at the auto show. I'd concede it is a much closer call between that and a base TL (no tech), although in that comparison, the cost differences are probably less than 2K.

HeartTLs

iTrader: (5)

I'm not and I don't think anyone here is arguing whether Acura/Honda is built by Honda; this is an enthusiast website and it's common knowledge. You chose a very blanket style approach to analyzing both vehicles and concluded that only performance and price were the only difference between the two. Better materials are used inside the TL than the Accord and I know this first hand because I've sat in both vehicles; I'm very analytical and don't let BS like perception cloud my judgement. Within that price difference you're overlooking a lot of details which all manufactures apply a premium for in their vehicles. Better leather (perforated vs not, more bolstering, more adjust ability), better/more gadgets (higher resolution screens, not only heated but also cooled seats), design aesthetics (aluminum trim in the dash to break up bottom/top of dash and create a cockpit look, thicker steering wheel), etc.

Any uneducated consumer or non car enthusiasts can say (Lexus, Acura, Infiniti) X is just a fancy (Toyota, Honda, Nissan) X but the reality is there are a lot of worthwhile differences, maybe to a person that see's a vehicle as just a means to get from point A to B there aren't. Although the difference between an off the rack suit with super wool 100-110, barley any canvassing, not tailored and the most bland styling to adhere to what the masses demand, I and many others pay hundreds more for practically the same custom tailored suit with higher thread count wool, full canvassing, personalized touches (monograms), contrasting jacket liner.

Rocketsfan

Come on, you honestly think nobody here knows Acuras are built by Honda? You honestly think people just turn a blind eye to "Honda" stamped over parts in their Acuras? In other news, Infinitis are just Nissans, Lexus is just Toyota, etc. Most people step up to the TL for performance and interior which I do believe are better than the latest Accord. I'd take the new Accord over the TL for the newer tech, but that will probably be negated when the new TL(X) comes out. I told my parents to buy a Honda Accord a couple of years ago because for their driving habits, there's nothing they'd do in the new TL that would demand the price bump. And this is after they owned a 1997 TL for about 13 or 14 years. I'm even entertaining the thought of buying the new Accord because I think the price bump to the TL isn't worth it with the current model years.

NVMYT

Some folks just don't get it! I have been to the factory here in Japan. I've seen first-hand how Honda makes the parts for shipping to be assembled at the Ohio plant. OF COURSE they add luxury/premium touches to the Acura line that is how they command a 15K more price tag, but they DON'T create "Wal-Mart" parts for the Accord and "Saks fifth Ave" parts for the Acura.

The same parts that are being used in the Honda line are being used in the Acura line...and if you are saying the Honda is cheaply made, inferior and doesn't stack-up, then you are just trying to justify the premium price you paid for your Acura. More gadgets, bolstering, and more adjust ability doesn't mean less gadgets, less bolstering and less adjust ability is cheap or inferior.

Now, as I wrote in my first post, I did the same thing, and I LOVED MY TL and happily paid the premium for having it and intend to do the same thing when we return to the states later this year...but because we also had an Accord EX-L and I've been to the plant that builds the parts for both cars, I'm able to write that the Accord materials are not cheap or inferior.

Of course, this is just one person's opinion and I'm not a true "enthusiast" like HeartTLs and I have certainly let "BS like perception cloud my judgment"...now that's funny! Dude, perception has always been reality when you can't accept the truth!

121traffic

TL? If you didn't know it was a TL, it could just as well be the interior of the MDX, RDX, TSX or ILX.[/QUOTE]

LMAO. Talk about missing the point.

First off, it's a fact. Acura's fitment and finishing is better than Honda. I don't care if the materials come out of the same factory. The suit analogy is a great one. I own many Calvin Klein suits. Some are custom made that cost $1000+. Some are off the shelf from Macy's...decent, but not on the same level. The wool (i.e. the plastic as it relates to interior pieces) may even be identical cloth, but the cut and stitching (i.e. the manufacturing and spec tolerance of the various trim pieces) is markedly different. Acura would NEVER have made a name for itself--while it might be declining as of late, they were a VERY successful luxury brand at their prime--if it was just badging Honda-quality stuff with a stylized "A". Cliff notes: just because it comes from the same place made by the same people does not mean it's all the same.

As for your clever comment about my picture comparison, I see what you did there! You took my words and replaced them with models relevant to Acura! Completely missing my point...it's not to compare models within the brand. Yes, you could mistake a TL interior for an MDX interior, or an RL, whatever. My point is that you would never, or rarely, mistake an Acura interior for a Honda interior. Acura interiors are designed to evoke more stylized comfort than the Honda branded stuff. The actual trim piece sharing is negligible, if at all. Honda does well engineering intuitive and functional cockpits. They do not excel at designing interiors that make me excited about driving. The other Acura models you mention are actually geared towards making driving exciting. That's not Honda's goal at all...they aim for reliable, semi-fun to drive transportation. That was my point...I wasn't trying to give everyone a pop quiz as to what model's interior they're looking at.

NVMYT

LMAO. Talk about missing the point.

First off, it's a fact. Acura's fitment and finishing is better than Honda. I don't care if the materials come out of the same factory. The suit analogy is a great one. I own many Calvin Klein suits. Some are custom made that cost $1000+. Some are off the shelf from Macy's...decent, but not on the same level. The wool (i.e. the plastic as it relates to interior pieces) may even be identical cloth, but the cut and stitching (i.e. the manufacturing and spec tolerance of the various trim pieces) is markedly different. Acura would NEVER have made a name for itself--while it might be declining as of late, they were a VERY successful luxury brand at their prime--if it was just badging Honda-quality stuff with a stylized "A". Cliff notes: just because it comes from the same place made by the same people does not mean it's all the same.

As for your clever comment about my picture comparison, I see what you did there! You took my words and replaced them with models relevant to Acura! Completely missing my point...it's not to compare models within the brand. Yes, you could mistake a TL interior for an MDX interior, or an RL, whatever. My point is that you would never, or rarely, mistake an Acura interior for a Honda interior. Acura interiors are designed to evoke more stylized comfort than the Honda branded stuff. The actual trim piece sharing is negligible, if at all. Honda does well engineering intuitive and functional cockpits. They do not excel at designing interiors that make me excited about driving. The other Acura models you mention are actually geared towards making driving exciting. That's not Honda's goal at all...they aim for reliable, semi-fun to drive transportation. That was my point...I wasn't trying to give everyone a pop quiz as to what model's interior they're looking at. [/QUOTE]

The suit analogy is NOT a great one! Being here in Japan I have traveled to Korea many times (all US Military/Americans do so while stationed here) and I get my suits custom/tailor made there for about $200 a suit. They (Koreans) are not allowed to put a “brand name tag” in the suits such as "Calvin Klein" but it is the exact same suit made by the same person/company that is shipped to "Calvin Klein" to be sold for a higher premium. And with your analogy, you are suggesting that the suits I've had made in Korea are inferior because it doesn't have the "Calvin Klein" label and it’s just not true. Dude, look at your suit label and I’ll bet it reads “Made in Korea.”

In any case, I NEVER wrote the TL wasn't a more exciting/premium vehicle to drive than an Accord. It is…and that is exactly why I purchased one, but Acura has made a name for itself because IT IS A HONDA not in-spite of being a HONDA.

It’s ludicrous to write that an Acura's fitment and finishing is better than Honda because the Acura is a Honda! The same computer/person used to stitch the TLs seats/dash and check tolerances of the various trim pieces is exactly the same computer/person that does it for the Accord and I’ve seen it first-hand!

So we are clear, I have written several times that Honda does add premium/luxury touches and gadgets to the Acura line, but you can't honestly think they reduce quality control or let tolerances slide just because one part is going in a TL and one part is going in an Accord. That’s ridiculous!

Again, the TL is a solid built, reliable and premium vehicle because it is a Honda and that is what people have come to expect from Honda. If you were ever able to come to Japan (I’ve got a total of 10 years in this country), you will see all the “Acuras” driving around with “Honda” badges, and maybe then you would realize the TL is just a luxury/premium/exciting Honda…nothing more and nothing less. Look at your door handles, window switches, power seat switches, A/C vents, window glass, floor mats, engine parts, etc...then go compare them to the ones in the Accord. Yep, they are the same. You may have premium leather, better Audio and a few other luxury niceties but you should, because you paid a premium price for those extras and when I purchased my TL I did too.

I guess you would also say a BMW 3 series without all the options is cheap and inferior to a BMW 3 series that is fully optioned out, or a Benz C250 is inferior to a Benz C350 and that argument just doesn’t hold water. They are both made by the same company; one just has more options/gadgets/luxury and more horsepower then the other, but the same nonetheless.

Go drive a new Toyota Avalon, then go drive a Lexus ES350, and you will see it’s getting harder and harder to distinguish between these vehicles. The new Avalon is rock solid, had real wood accents, drives butter smooth and is super quiet…sound familiar? Yep, that’s what Lexus says about the new ES350.

Now, when I come back to the states later this year, I plan to buy a new TL. I want the longer warranty, roadside assistance, loaner car during service, great driving experience…and of course the build quality, but I'm under no illusions and understand the TL is just an upscale Honda!...and that's a good thing!

HeartTLs

iTrader: (5)

Bro when you get it you get it and when you don't you miss it by a mile.

I chose the suit analogy because depending on how much you know about suits you'd know it is the perfect analogy in this context. Some details you might not know about suiting are that some stitching techniques are MORE EXPENSIVE than others. AKA same material used, marginal difference in amount used, but one method is more expensive. So although at the factory worker 1 does all welds in one fashion for one vehicle he may not be required to make as stiff a chassis in another. And before you try to hit me with some I saw X while deployed, the main difference between the Z350 and Z350 nismo other than wheels/tires/suspension is extra welds to make the chassis more ridge and make it handle better.

Actually, no he isn't. What he's saying is you get what you pay for. Let me break it down, SAME brand suit, some CUSTOM (ACURA aka more expensive, premium) some off the SHELF (HONDA aka cheaper, bland), product A superior to H.
I'm convinced you either a) have a problem with reading comprehension, b) are deliberately not reading entire replies and/or c) a combination of the above combined with a deep seated stubborn mentality.

You're free to believe whatever you want, remember you saw everything. I'm not going to comment on the subject further, I'm not getting paid to do this.

g37guy01

Also, what Lexus says about the LS460. So what's the point? If you were blind-folded and put in either an Avalon or ES350 as a passenger and driven around at 25 mph, I'll bet you couldn't tell the difference. (to your point).

And while there is some overlap in the tech between the two models, the tech in the ES 350 can really ratchet the price of the vehicle up north quickly.

JM2010 SH-AWD

^^ Absolutely right. The competition in all segments of this industry is intense right now, with the standard segment cars pushing up (e.g., Avalon, Accord Touring) and the luxury makers pushing down (e.g., ILX, ATS, etc.). I came away from our recent auto show thinking only a fool would want to do business in this industry. If I were deploying my capital, I'd try to find an industry with fewer players and less competition.

NVMYT

Exactly why I only have 40 posts in 7 years membership because some folks just aren't educated enough to debate/make their point without resorting to insults. Thanks for not commenting any further on this.

Rocket_man

It's a good time for consumers isn't it

I really don't need a $50k+ car, but the competition is driving more tech and performance to more affordable cars.

Mike M

Before buying my 2012 TL, I owned an 08 Accord, fully loaded. It was a great car, but doesn't measure up the ride, handling, and quiet of the Acura. As much as I loved my Accord, it would be hard to get away from Acura. I agree with many of the other posts; the 2014 TL is worth waiting for, as it should be a big advancement over the current generation (and far ahead of the 2013 Accord).

NVMYT

Mike, I agree the TL is a great driving car, but you can't compare an '08 Accord to a '12 TL NO CONTEST...but if you compare a '13 Accord (with all the claimed improvements in quietness and ride) to the ’12 TL, I’ll bet Accord has closed the gap a bit. Enough that some folks will save 15K and buy the Accord, while others will remain with the TL for the driving experience…I’m a TL guy myself, but I don’t dismiss that the Accord is looking/riding great!

SteveA2012

I was comaring the two cars in December (online at least) when I bought my TL. What killed the V-6 Accord for me was that it was just too boring. Canada gets the 18" rims on the touring model but we don't here. The accord sport looks pretty cool but it needs leather and a V-6. It's a $22,000 car and is just not in the same category as the TL. Had Honda put those rims, spoiler and suspension on the V-6 Accord, I might have been posting on the Accord pages instead of this one.

SteveA2012

Don't forget that there's no guarantee that the new TLX will blow everyone away. The new RDX isn't some remarkable improvement and the ILX is a flop. The RLX does nothing for me either.
Everyone here will be watching it I'm sure and I hope it's really nice but you just don't know. At this point, however, if you haven't bought a 2013 TL and are thinking about it, it will probably pay to wait to at least see some pictures of the TLX before pulling the trigger. If you get a 2013, buy at the end of the year as a leftover for some big discounts.

KeithL

That has been my struggle right now, my lease is up in a few months and I can get some killer deals on a 13 TL AWD Advance, so I need to try and decide if TLX will be worth the wait. Even if I think it is and it is a year away I am stuck for 6-8 months deciding what to drive between my lease the TLX. Part of me says get a TL AWD Advance drive it for 2 years and get a 15 TLX when it has been out almost 9 months and the initial bugs are worked out.

JM2010 SH-AWD

^^Not a bad strategy. I had a '12 TL loaner a while ago, and I have to admit it seemed a little quieter and better riding than my '10. I think you'd find the '13 an improvement over your '09 (recognizing you'd only hold it for a little while).

reddogTL

I've been racking my brain for the past few weeks on this very same comparison. I've read the reviews and spec sheets for the '13 Accord many times over and agree. On paper, spec & tech wise, its a great buy compared to a TL. I have an 08 TL/w Nav that I've just recently been putting about 2000 miles on per month. Needless to say I'm refueling every 4 days at $45-50 a pop with premium fuel. Onboard computer says I'm averaging 25mpg and thats with a remote start thats running about a minute or two before getting in.

Unfortunately the general perception holds true. My own girlfriend(which I've moved in with and is why I'm putting so many miles on the car now) says "Ugh how can you downgrade to a crappy Accord from a TL!?". I've had 3 other friends say something similar. I've sat in the Accord in the showroom and it feels a little more roomy. However I'm currently 0-2 visiting Honda dealerships to test drive an Accord Touring because they were out of stock.

I've crunched the numbers so many times over I have them all memorized. 18-26mpg on my TL on premium and 21-34mpg regular on the Accord Touring. The 0-60 times of the 08 TL Auto is around 6.3. The Accord Touring Auto is about the same.(5.6 as some of you have mentioned above is BS, that number is realistic on a V6 MT, real world a V6 AT is low 6's). Which makes the performance about the same.

I've been looking at used '12 TL Advance. They're rare, but lately I've seen them as low as $32k with under 25k miles. '12 TL is 20-29mpg on premium. While it's slightly better fuel economy the extra money used for the down payment nulls this out compared to my current 08 TL. I just havent been able to pull the trigger. Thinking about waiting to see the new '14 TL(x).

I've also looked at the '12-13 BMW 328. 0-60 is 5.6-5.8 with 22-34mpg(23-33mpg AWD) on premium. Unfortunately spec'ing one out with the same factory options as the TL(HID's, leather, heated seats, nav, etc.) still command over $40k, even used. In any case, used '12-13 BMW 328i's seem to be pretty rare with the Lighting Package(HID + Halos). Nevermind the other goodies. However, getting a 328i would be a downgrade in size. And considering I drive at least 2 hours every week day now that wont be as comfortable.

reddogTL

Also, while minor since they can be replaced, I dont like any of the factory wheel options for the new Accord's. The 17's on EX-L and Touring look like shit and the 18's for the Sport dont look "Sporty". Neither do the car any justice. Some RonJon's Rev or Legacy's should make it pop, however, they've yet to release any for the 9G Accord's.

g37guy01

I'm jealous of guys whose significant other actually has an opinion about cars. My better half leaves the decision making to me, although I do get "I like it or I don't like it feedback".

Edward'TLS

ReddogTL, it seems like your ultimate choice has come down to two factors : value vs. brand-name.

Depending what is deemed more important to you (and your GF), if it is about value, then the brand new Accord (with all the latest bells and whistles) is the obvious choice. Otherwise, if the brand name effect is more important, then a used TL be it.

JM2010 SH-AWD

We own a TL and an Accord. The Accord is very nice (it's not a touring) and would have matched up well with a "luxury" car 5-7 years ago. But the TL offers more features, higher quality materials, etc. The question is looking at the two cars feature for feature and comparing the driving experiences and how you use the car, is the Acura worth the extra dollars to you.

We considered a FWD TL when we bought our Accord. But given that our car hauls dogs, teenagers, MTN bikes and tows dirt bikes, we decided it would be a waste of money to get the TL only to have it subjected to that kind of mild abuse.

We're really happy with the Accord for our purposes. And happily, it has a "reverse-Hyundai" issue: the MPG are siginficantly higher than the Honda-advertised EPA number.

graphicguy

Just helped my sister buy a new TL SH AWD Advance. She test drove a couple of Accords, including the Touring. Quality in the TL is a notch above.

Performance, ride/handling, stereo, etc....all better in the TL.

Finally, we test drove the Touring twice...once in the dayling, once at night. Those LED headlights may add some bling, but the HIDs in the TL offer better illumination at night.

Wait for the new TL (which, living in OH, not far from the Accord/TL plant, came from a credible source) is due out in late 2014 as a 2015 model.

weather

^^^ Late in 2014?!?! OH NO...say it isn't so! I want it by May/June 2014 otherwise, I am screwed!

KeithL

Late 14 as a 15 :-(

n-spring

I'm still betting on March '14 as a '15 model.

a35tl

I'm in the same situation as you're in. I had an '07 TL Nav that I dearly loved. Sold it and bought a '10 TSX V6 Tech, a great car that is very underrated in my opinion. But anyway, I'm looking to replace it now. Have had my heart set on a very low mileage '12 TL Advance (fwd) but cannot find any to suit me. I've been looking pretty much nationwide for close to 2 months now.

Found one and was going to make an offer on it and they sold it the day before. So I'm back to square one. I'm ready to buy right now but just can't find a TL. I'd even go for another TSX V6 Tech but they're even more rare than a low mileage '12 TL Advance. Checked out an Accord Touring yesterday and really came away impressed. I only keep a car about a year and a half. So I've been thinking about buying the Accord Touring and getting back into an Acura late next year.

I did the math and the fuel savings on the Accord vs my TSX V6 equates to almost $900/year at current regular vs premium fuel costs. I really want a TL but the Accord Touring is wooing me pretty hard. My local dealer has one in stock that is the exact color combination that I would want. Very tempting and if I can't find a TL by the first of June I'll probably go ahead and pull the trigger on the Accord Touring.

4thaccord

Having driven Hondas for over 25 years, including a TL, I currently own the new Accord you are referring to a32TL. Regardless of whether or not people feel Acuras are better made or higher end than Hondas, there is one other thing to consider which I may or may not have mentioned on another post: this new Accord is without a doubt the WORST riding Honda I have owned (and that includes the stiff rides of the TL and a Prelude). If you are thinking of buying one, I'd suggest going on a very thorough, long test drive, over all sorts of roads, and make sure you can live with it. I wish I had paid more attention to it. I began to notice it after a few weeks, and to be honest, now at 6 months into ownership I really wish I had not bought it. It is THAT uncomfortable, at least to this old man.

graphicguy

The OHIO plant doesn't do model changover until JULY. So, the '14s (both Accord and TL) will hit dealer showrooms in August.

The new Accord downgraded the suspension with coil overs. TL has the more expensive and better double wishbone, offering better ride and better handling.

For grins, my sister test drove an RLX. My opinon? Acura took a step backwards with that car.

JM2010 SH-AWD

Interesting. Our EX (4 cylinder) has a very quiet, comfortable ride. It's a little softer than I'd prefer (and softer, I think, than past Accords), but it's my wife's car, and she likes it. Does the Touring come with 18 inch wheels? I wonder if that could make such a difference between the EX (which has 17s).