09 tl hybrid
05-27-2008, 09:20 AM
#41
Racer
Yes, we need to improve things in the short term doing what we can. As far as the above several posts go I was just addressing some comments by someone who, by all apperances, has not done much reading on the subject. And it's Ok to be wrong. I'm wrong sometimes. But if you come in here and just start flaming with comments about things being stupid or saying "just ride a bus and buy a Civic" or saying other dumb things that just are not correct I like to respond to them.
People can think whatever they want. But if they start posting inaccurate facts they should be responded to.
But back to your post, conuming less oil would help in the short term I guess. But burning no oil would be better
And by the looks of things we are just about there. I mean, in the next 12 to 36 months there should be several "electric" vehicles on the market for people ro buy. Some that may just have batteries for short daily driving, and some with a "range extender" of some sort added for longer trips. I just think it is WAY cool this is happening now, for a bunch of reasons, and just hope Honda joins the party soon.
People can think whatever they want. But if they start posting inaccurate facts they should be responded to.
But back to your post, conuming less oil would help in the short term I guess. But burning no oil would be better
And by the looks of things we are just about there. I mean, in the next 12 to 36 months there should be several "electric" vehicles on the market for people ro buy. Some that may just have batteries for short daily driving, and some with a "range extender" of some sort added for longer trips. I just think it is WAY cool this is happening now, for a bunch of reasons, and just hope Honda joins the party soon.
05-27-2008, 04:27 PM
#42
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And you don't "store" energy in gasoline.
Gasoline is a medium which stores energy - energy which is put to work when it is burned in an engine and is then used to make the car "go." A gallon of gasoline contains 35.09 kilowatt hours of energy (you would need nearly 10 pounds of coal to produce the same amount of energy). As I said, gasoline is the most efficient medium for storing energy that we currently have which is why (surprise) it runs in everything!
If you want some facts try reading this article:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...y_again_column
But, for example, to have a Prius run as an electric-only car:
"Range can be longer: Toyota says adding 11 battery packs, for a total of 12, would up electric-only range to 37 miles. It would also lift the Prius's price above $50,000."
Having a battery in my cell phone produces perhaps 4 hours of talk time. That's quite a stretch to go from that to driving 250 miles in a car powered by batteries. I never said batteries wouldn't "work" I said they wouldn't "work" to power a car by themselves.
I admire your spirit but on the science/economics you're not quite correct. As I said, BILLIONS have been sunk into hybrid technology (apparently most of that on the Toyota-side was paid for by the taxpayers of Japan). Billions of dollars, as I've said, buys a lot of gas for people.
Oh, and the "flying car" I keep mentioning was yet another unsuccessful predicition as to what we'd all be "driving" in the future.
As I also said, GM sunk almost $2 billion into the EV1 with no return (just an incorrect movie bashing them) so looking at what a company is doing (but has not yet done) and using this as a success story is somewhat dubious, IMO.
Gasoline is a medium which stores energy - energy which is put to work when it is burned in an engine and is then used to make the car "go." A gallon of gasoline contains 35.09 kilowatt hours of energy (you would need nearly 10 pounds of coal to produce the same amount of energy). As I said, gasoline is the most efficient medium for storing energy that we currently have which is why (surprise) it runs in everything!
If you want some facts try reading this article:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...y_again_column
But, for example, to have a Prius run as an electric-only car:
"Range can be longer: Toyota says adding 11 battery packs, for a total of 12, would up electric-only range to 37 miles. It would also lift the Prius's price above $50,000."
Having a battery in my cell phone produces perhaps 4 hours of talk time. That's quite a stretch to go from that to driving 250 miles in a car powered by batteries. I never said batteries wouldn't "work" I said they wouldn't "work" to power a car by themselves.
I admire your spirit but on the science/economics you're not quite correct. As I said, BILLIONS have been sunk into hybrid technology (apparently most of that on the Toyota-side was paid for by the taxpayers of Japan). Billions of dollars, as I've said, buys a lot of gas for people.
Oh, and the "flying car" I keep mentioning was yet another unsuccessful predicition as to what we'd all be "driving" in the future.
As I also said, GM sunk almost $2 billion into the EV1 with no return (just an incorrect movie bashing them) so looking at what a company is doing (but has not yet done) and using this as a success story is somewhat dubious, IMO.
05-27-2008, 11:03 PM
#43
Racer
Ok, valid arguments. But because we are talking Apples (internal combustion engines) and Oranges (electric motors) lets look at a few things.
A gallon of gas may contain 35.09 kWh of energy. But when you use that in an ICE (internal combustion engine) only a fraction of that is actually turned into kinetic energy, the rest is wasted and lost as heat.
The other thing is electric vehicles can recover energy though braking to use again later. ICE cars use friction to stop the car and that energy is also wasted as heat.
I personally think lithium ion and Li-Poly batteries are a temporary solution. I think ultra capacitors will be the real solution. Lower weight, much better energy density and unlimited (and fast) charging and discharging with no degradation.....Like this from EEStor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eestor
At the end of the day I know my car gets 19 MPG. But Ok, I can buy a new car that does better. Lets say I can get a 30 MPG car. At $4.00 a gallon that come out to .133 cents a mile. At $5.00 its .166 cents a mile.
Electric costs me .153 cents a kWh (I live in expensive NY, in other parts of the county it's as low as .08 cents a kWh, look at your bill). If a 52 kWh battery (or ultra cap) can get me 300 miles that comes out to $7.96 to "tank up" or .026 cents a mile.
Lets also remember oil is also a finite resource. Electric cars can be easily powered by any power source...nuclear, hydro, wind, wave....and solar panels on your house or garage (I think this is why Honda got in to the solar cell business, they see the future).
Granted, you can not currently buy these "batteries" from EEStor. ZENN Motors is supposed to ship a compact car in a few months that use EEStor batteries. If they do (BIG "if") and they work as advertised the world has just changed. If not, well.... Time will tell.
The Prius (2001-2003 and 2004-2008) used Nickel-metal hydride batteries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prius
Lithium-Ion and Li-Poly will offer greater energy density, lower weight and lower cost. That is why Toyota is building plants to make them (and why they are used in notebooks and cell phones now). So the $50,000 price you are quoting will probably not be accurate in the near future. But the fact you can add (or replace) battery packs as cost drops and capacity improve is great....so in a year or two you can upgrade your Prius without buying a whole new car. That is a good thing.
>>apparently most of that on the Toyota-side was paid for by the taxpayers of Japan<<
If the tax payers of Japan want to pay for me to get a low cost electric car I can drive for .03 cents a mile it's Ok with me I am more upset at tax credits for oil companies making BILLIONS and paying farmers to NOT grow food and for corn subsidies.
You are correct on what GM did with the EV1. It used lead-acid and then NiMH batteries in later versions. They sold 1,117 units total over 4 years. The battery technology was NOT ready or economically viable. Gas was also a whole lot cheaper then ('96-'99) when GM was try to sell the EV1. Different story today. Gas is expensive and batteries are improving daily.
BTW The Prius in contrast sold 1 million units world wide by June '07. But I have always said the key to doing an EV is the batteries.
I did read Patrick Bedards Car and Driver article from April '07. Smart guy, but he mentions only GM is betting on Lithium-Ion batteries. 13 months later we now know Toyota and Nissan are also. He also says "in my experience, the electric-only range of a Prius isn't more than a mile or so." But that is all it was designed to to with NiMH batteries. Too bad Mr. Bedard did not get to drive a Tesla (only a year later) that uses Lithium-Ion. Range is 220 miles on "electric-only" Mr. Bedard, what do you say now????
But I have said above (until we can use ultra capacitors with big capacities and that can charge in minuets) an EV (like the GM Volt) should have an on-board system to generate electric for extended range.
Time will tell if GM, Toyota and Nissan can get the Lithium-Ion costs down with mass production (I am betting they can), and if ultra capacitors live up to their promise.
We should know the answer to both questions in just a few months.....
A gallon of gas may contain 35.09 kWh of energy. But when you use that in an ICE (internal combustion engine) only a fraction of that is actually turned into kinetic energy, the rest is wasted and lost as heat.
The other thing is electric vehicles can recover energy though braking to use again later. ICE cars use friction to stop the car and that energy is also wasted as heat.
I personally think lithium ion and Li-Poly batteries are a temporary solution. I think ultra capacitors will be the real solution. Lower weight, much better energy density and unlimited (and fast) charging and discharging with no degradation.....Like this from EEStor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eestor
At the end of the day I know my car gets 19 MPG. But Ok, I can buy a new car that does better. Lets say I can get a 30 MPG car. At $4.00 a gallon that come out to .133 cents a mile. At $5.00 its .166 cents a mile.
Electric costs me .153 cents a kWh (I live in expensive NY, in other parts of the county it's as low as .08 cents a kWh, look at your bill). If a 52 kWh battery (or ultra cap) can get me 300 miles that comes out to $7.96 to "tank up" or .026 cents a mile.
Lets also remember oil is also a finite resource. Electric cars can be easily powered by any power source...nuclear, hydro, wind, wave....and solar panels on your house or garage (I think this is why Honda got in to the solar cell business, they see the future).
Granted, you can not currently buy these "batteries" from EEStor. ZENN Motors is supposed to ship a compact car in a few months that use EEStor batteries. If they do (BIG "if") and they work as advertised the world has just changed. If not, well.... Time will tell.
The Prius (2001-2003 and 2004-2008) used Nickel-metal hydride batteries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prius
Lithium-Ion and Li-Poly will offer greater energy density, lower weight and lower cost. That is why Toyota is building plants to make them (and why they are used in notebooks and cell phones now). So the $50,000 price you are quoting will probably not be accurate in the near future. But the fact you can add (or replace) battery packs as cost drops and capacity improve is great....so in a year or two you can upgrade your Prius without buying a whole new car. That is a good thing.
>>apparently most of that on the Toyota-side was paid for by the taxpayers of Japan<<
If the tax payers of Japan want to pay for me to get a low cost electric car I can drive for .03 cents a mile it's Ok with me
I am more upset at tax credits for oil companies making BILLIONS and paying farmers to NOT grow food and for corn subsidies.You are correct on what GM did with the EV1. It used lead-acid and then NiMH batteries in later versions. They sold 1,117 units total over 4 years. The battery technology was NOT ready or economically viable. Gas was also a whole lot cheaper then ('96-'99) when GM was try to sell the EV1. Different story today. Gas is expensive and batteries are improving daily.
BTW The Prius in contrast sold 1 million units world wide by June '07. But I have always said the key to doing an EV is the batteries.
I did read Patrick Bedards Car and Driver article from April '07. Smart guy, but he mentions only GM is betting on Lithium-Ion batteries. 13 months later we now know Toyota and Nissan are also. He also says "in my experience, the electric-only range of a Prius isn't more than a mile or so." But that is all it was designed to to with NiMH batteries. Too bad Mr. Bedard did not get to drive a Tesla (only a year later) that uses Lithium-Ion. Range is 220 miles on "electric-only"
Mr. Bedard, what do you say now????But I have said above (until we can use ultra capacitors with big capacities and that can charge in minuets) an EV (like the GM Volt) should have an on-board system to generate electric for extended range.
Time will tell if GM, Toyota and Nissan can get the Lithium-Ion costs down with mass production (I am betting they can), and if ultra capacitors live up to their promise.
We should know the answer to both questions in just a few months.....
05-27-2008, 11:35 PM
#44
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I think we are missing each other because I am considering ALL input energy needed to move a car 1 mile down the road. For electric that is not only the energy needed to create the car and batteries but also the energy needed to create the electrical generation that goes through the powerlines into your home and then into the electric car and the energy needed to dispose of those noxious batteries when they're dead. There was a study done that said when ALL input energy is considered the gasoline powered vehicle is more economical.
Sure, if a Government is underwriting development of batteries but you only spend 3 cents to power up your car... what do you care? My point is that this makes it almost impossible to truly know which is more "economical" so one technology is not truly going head-to-head with another... one has an advantage. It's like the situation with ethanol and farmers... the marketplace is made uneven and thus inefficient.
One reason for the falling fuel economy of cars considering the technology is the added weight from safety and luxury systems and the ever increasing march of horsepower. Again, considering a level playing field a Honda Civic is the most efficient car out there (it didn't cost $2 billion to develop like the Prius). The Honda CRX F got like 42 mpg on the highways 20 years ago!
Rising fuel costs will allow the marketplace to act naturally and people will voluntarily buy more fuel efficient cars without the Government offering tax credits (which come out of my pocket) or underwriting battery development (using more tax money). I also don't think the Government should be in the business of picking which next technology will be a "winner." The marketplace is brutally efficient at that.
After all, the Tesla does pass along cost to the consumer (and some profit for the maker) and it does cost $100,000. You'd need to make a ton of batteries before that price drops to the level that it can compete with a Yaris or a Civic without subsidies.
Sure, if a Government is underwriting development of batteries but you only spend 3 cents to power up your car... what do you care? My point is that this makes it almost impossible to truly know which is more "economical" so one technology is not truly going head-to-head with another... one has an advantage. It's like the situation with ethanol and farmers... the marketplace is made uneven and thus inefficient.
One reason for the falling fuel economy of cars considering the technology is the added weight from safety and luxury systems and the ever increasing march of horsepower. Again, considering a level playing field a Honda Civic is the most efficient car out there (it didn't cost $2 billion to develop like the Prius). The Honda CRX F got like 42 mpg on the highways 20 years ago!
Rising fuel costs will allow the marketplace to act naturally and people will voluntarily buy more fuel efficient cars without the Government offering tax credits (which come out of my pocket) or underwriting battery development (using more tax money). I also don't think the Government should be in the business of picking which next technology will be a "winner." The marketplace is brutally efficient at that.
After all, the Tesla does pass along cost to the consumer (and some profit for the maker) and it does cost $100,000. You'd need to make a ton of batteries before that price drops to the level that it can compete with a Yaris or a Civic without subsidies.
05-28-2008, 05:13 PM
#45
Racer
Just for fun here are a few videos. They seem unbiased. Did learn Tesla is working on a "sub $50,000" model. There are bunch more videos on there if you search around....
And just think, these are "first generation" cars. Can't wait to see what these guys are doing in 5 or 10 years....
CBS story on Volt & Tesla
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUCcqaFh1nI
Edmunds video with a Tesla engineer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykT2OFXpJkg
Edmunds "2008 Tesla: This Electric Sports Car Is the Real Thing"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ4gitSm1Xg
And just think, these are "first generation" cars. Can't wait to see what these guys are doing in 5 or 10 years....
CBS story on Volt & Tesla
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUCcqaFh1nI
Edmunds video with a Tesla engineer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykT2OFXpJkg
Edmunds "2008 Tesla: This Electric Sports Car Is the Real Thing"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ4gitSm1Xg
05-29-2008, 12:23 AM
#46
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As Ronald Reagan said... trust but verify. I'll be waiting for "real world" data once these cars are on the road. I hope they do take off because the torque they generate is quite amazing and 0-100 times would be pretty awesome and a lot of fun to experience.
05-29-2008, 10:29 AM
#47
Racer
I hope this all works out. How neat would it be to have a car, like the TL, with all the luxury and gadgets Acura could squeeze into it, still have nice performance and handling AND be able to cruise all day in it for literally just a few dollars.
It'd be cool to if they put the plug behind the front license plate....so when I pull in and park the car in the garage a little robot arm comes out, pulls down the license plate and plugs the car in all by itself. It would suck if you kept forgetting to plug the car in hehehe Honda (robot maker), add that to my wish list please
It'd be cool to if they put the plug behind the front license plate....so when I pull in and park the car in the garage a little robot arm comes out, pulls down the license plate and plugs the car in all by itself. It would suck if you kept forgetting to plug the car in hehehe Honda (robot maker), add that to my wish list please
05-29-2008, 07:09 PM
#48
Racer
While watching the video with the Tesla guys they showed they use a standard "off the shelf" Lithium Ion battery used in notebook computers and I recalled something I read a couple months ago.....I had to go researching to find it again. Actually, I could not find the exact article I saw on Yahoo Tech News (the link no longer works) but below are links to other sources of the story. There were actually a bunch more if you do a search.
As I recall from the first article I read the science behind this "problem" was well known for years. Now these guys at Standford figured out how to use nano wires in it....
Wow....it occurred to me that is these cell can be mass produced cheaply for notebooks you might be able to use them in your Tesla also and get a 2200 Mile range on a charge!! Holy Bat Car Charger!! And even if you already own a Tesla I suppose you could upgrade your current car with the new cells!
Researchers Extend Lithium Ion Battery Life 10X
http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1234/
http://dailyapps.net/2007/12/batteri...s-to-nanotech/
"Imagine charging up your Mobile Phones six times a year!!"
Research Breakthrough Could Mean 40-Hour Laptop Batteries
http://mobilitytoday.com/news/008301/40_hour_batteries
As I recall from the first article I read the science behind this "problem" was well known for years. Now these guys at Standford figured out how to use nano wires in it....
Wow....it occurred to me that is these cell can be mass produced cheaply for notebooks you might be able to use them in your Tesla also and get a 2200 Mile range on a charge!! Holy Bat Car Charger!! And even if you already own a Tesla I suppose you could upgrade your current car with the new cells!
Researchers Extend Lithium Ion Battery Life 10X
http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1234/
http://dailyapps.net/2007/12/batteri...s-to-nanotech/
"Imagine charging up your Mobile Phones six times a year!!"
Research Breakthrough Could Mean 40-Hour Laptop Batteries
http://mobilitytoday.com/news/008301/40_hour_batteries
06-01-2008, 01:13 AM
#49
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I just came over here from the TSX forums to see what news we had on the 09 TL and found this lovely thread. I need to make a few comments to straighten out some peoples' remarks.
Heat Engines are the most inefficient sources of energy. I'll give you an example:
Say an average person drives 12,000 miles per year at 20 MPG. That's about 600 gallons of gasoline used. An automobile engine has an efficiency of about 22 percent. 125 gallons are actually useful and 475 gallons are wasted. Multiply that by 4 people in a family in a household -- ~2000 gallons a year or 40 barrels of oil just put into the atmosphere--wasted. Not to mention the amount of energy it takes to pump a gallon of oil out of the ground, transport that gallon of oil half way around the planet. Pump it to a refinery(putting more crap into the air), pipe it to another facility where a truck picks it up(more crap into the air), and then puts it BACK into the ground at your local gas station, just to be pumped out again using electricity. The overall efficiency of using gasoline for your vehicle is probably alot lower than just the 22 percent stated above.
Electric motors are often up to 90 percent efficient. They don't require much maintenance and they run on electricity. The transport of electricity is extremely efficient because it travels along a wire (>95%). Electricity is something that can be made locally or in other states through solar energy, wind energy, nuclear energy, thermal energy, coal plants, natural gas plants, hydroelectric plants, and even ethanol power plants. True, polluting power plants like coal have efficiency of about 30-40 percent, but even that would be better than what I stated above.
Hypothetically: What if I told you that we could burn our gasoline at the powerplant level and transport the electricity to the batteries in our cars at 2 or 3 percent improved efficiency overall? Would you believe me?
The truth is, the technology is here for electric cars to become viable. We have the batteries and the know how to do it. It will take 10 dollar a gallon gas prices to make it happen. Government currently spends way too much money protecting our interest in gasoline/oil. We need to switch that interest to sustainable energy resources at home.
Heat Engines are the most inefficient sources of energy. I'll give you an example:
Say an average person drives 12,000 miles per year at 20 MPG. That's about 600 gallons of gasoline used. An automobile engine has an efficiency of about 22 percent. 125 gallons are actually useful and 475 gallons are wasted. Multiply that by 4 people in a family in a household -- ~2000 gallons a year or 40 barrels of oil just put into the atmosphere--wasted. Not to mention the amount of energy it takes to pump a gallon of oil out of the ground, transport that gallon of oil half way around the planet. Pump it to a refinery(putting more crap into the air), pipe it to another facility where a truck picks it up(more crap into the air), and then puts it BACK into the ground at your local gas station, just to be pumped out again using electricity. The overall efficiency of using gasoline for your vehicle is probably alot lower than just the 22 percent stated above.
Electric motors are often up to 90 percent efficient. They don't require much maintenance and they run on electricity. The transport of electricity is extremely efficient because it travels along a wire (>95%). Electricity is something that can be made locally or in other states through solar energy, wind energy, nuclear energy, thermal energy, coal plants, natural gas plants, hydroelectric plants, and even ethanol power plants. True, polluting power plants like coal have efficiency of about 30-40 percent, but even that would be better than what I stated above.
Hypothetically: What if I told you that we could burn our gasoline at the powerplant level and transport the electricity to the batteries in our cars at 2 or 3 percent improved efficiency overall? Would you believe me?
The truth is, the technology is here for electric cars to become viable. We have the batteries and the know how to do it. It will take 10 dollar a gallon gas prices to make it happen. Government currently spends way too much money protecting our interest in gasoline/oil. We need to switch that interest to sustainable energy resources at home.
06-01-2008, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by CL6
I think we are missing each other because I am considering ALL input energy needed to move a car 1 mile down the road. For electric that is not only the energy needed to create the car and batteries but also the energy needed to create the electrical generation that goes through the powerlines into your home and then into the electric car and the energy needed to dispose of those noxious batteries when they're dead. There was a study done that said when ALL input energy is considered the gasoline powered vehicle is more economical.
06-01-2008, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by jackspat2
The truth is, the technology is here for electric cars to become viable. We have the batteries and the know how to do it. It will take 10 dollar a gallon gas prices to make it happen. Government currently spends way too much money protecting our interest in gasoline/oil. We need to switch that interest to sustainable energy resources at home.
06-02-2008, 06:26 PM
#52
Racer
Looks like electric powered powered TL will be here sooner than later....even if they don't come from Acura. Just did a search on "electric car conversion kits".
Just as Byan built an electric Accord above it looks like you may be able to buy the parts and do it yourself from places like this:
http://www.electroauto.com/index.html
humm....maybe I can pick up a mint '05 or '06 TL for a bargain and buy a conversion kit for it? It'd be funny as heck if you did that and it outperformed the new '09 and cost a whole lot less to operate
I have to do a lot more research on this...
Just as Byan built an electric Accord above it looks like you may be able to buy the parts and do it yourself from places like this:
http://www.electroauto.com/index.html
humm....maybe I can pick up a mint '05 or '06 TL for a bargain and buy a conversion kit for it? It'd be funny as heck if you did that and it outperformed the new '09 and cost a whole lot less to operate
I have to do a lot more research on this...
06-03-2008, 11:44 AM
#53
Air Vice Marshal
Plug to charge electric cars are to the electric grid like E85 vehicles are to the food supply. The grid is already pretty fragile, remember the various NE blackouts? If there was any serious movement towards pure battery powered vehicles that had to be charged off the grid, the grid would collapse.
Look at the dramatic effect ethanol production is having on the world food supply (and costs) with negligible effect on oil consumption.
I was on Sint Maarten recently, and thought that islands like it are the perfect lab for developing and improving alternate fuel vehicles. Small enough that range isn't a problem, few filling stations so it would be very practical to offer hydrogen, etc.
I don't know what the answer is, but I don't see a plug in vehicle in my future any time soon. I drive about 50 miles round trip, my wife and daughter almost 100. No unusual in the Washington DC area. My employees (11 of them) drive from 35 to 55, with the solitary exception of one that only drives 9. Those are one way, so 10 out of 11 drive more than 70 round trip. Last week I had to go to NH, but I also had to visit some of our offices between DC and NH on the way, so I drove. Given the locations and schedules, there was simply no practical alternative.
Coming back Friday afternoon and evening, I drove the 475 miles without a single stop for any reason. The TL gets pretty good mileage on the highway, as long as you don't go too fast.
Look at the dramatic effect ethanol production is having on the world food supply (and costs) with negligible effect on oil consumption.
I was on Sint Maarten recently, and thought that islands like it are the perfect lab for developing and improving alternate fuel vehicles. Small enough that range isn't a problem, few filling stations so it would be very practical to offer hydrogen, etc.
I don't know what the answer is, but I don't see a plug in vehicle in my future any time soon. I drive about 50 miles round trip, my wife and daughter almost 100. No unusual in the Washington DC area. My employees (11 of them) drive from 35 to 55, with the solitary exception of one that only drives 9. Those are one way, so 10 out of 11 drive more than 70 round trip. Last week I had to go to NH, but I also had to visit some of our offices between DC and NH on the way, so I drove. Given the locations and schedules, there was simply no practical alternative.
Coming back Friday afternoon and evening, I drove the 475 miles without a single stop for any reason. The TL gets pretty good mileage on the highway, as long as you don't go too fast.
06-03-2008, 01:36 PM
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As someone who will most likely will accept a job that requires 50 miles of daily commute, I already started looking into the hybrid cars.
I have been planning to buy a new(er) car soon, something like an 07-8 TL for around 28K. A used 07 Camry Hybrid will run me about 23k.
I wonder how much my 01 TL will get me
Btw, here is a link where they do some MATH to show you the percentages of cost/savings
http://green.yahoo.com/blog/amorylov...brid-cars.html
take a look.
I have been planning to buy a new(er) car soon, something like an 07-8 TL for around 28K. A used 07 Camry Hybrid will run me about 23k.
I wonder how much my 01 TL will get me
Btw, here is a link where they do some MATH to show you the percentages of cost/savings
http://green.yahoo.com/blog/amorylov...brid-cars.html
take a look.
06-03-2008, 05:49 PM
#55
Ryan Christopher
Originally Posted by CL6
And you don't "store" energy in gasoline.
Gasoline is a medium which stores energy - energy which is put to work when it is burned in an engine and is then used to make the car "go." A gallon of gasoline contains 35.09 kilowatt hours of energy (you would need nearly 10 pounds of coal to produce the same amount of energy). As I said, gasoline is the most efficient medium for storing energy that we currently have which is why (surprise) it runs in everything!
If you want some facts try reading this article:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...y_again_column
But, for example, to have a Prius run as an electric-only car:
"Range can be longer: Toyota says adding 11 battery packs, for a total of 12, would up electric-only range to 37 miles. It would also lift the Prius's price above $50,000."
Having a battery in my cell phone produces perhaps 4 hours of talk time. That's quite a stretch to go from that to driving 250 miles in a car powered by batteries. I never said batteries wouldn't "work" I said they wouldn't "work" to power a car by themselves.
I admire your spirit but on the science/economics you're not quite correct. As I said, BILLIONS have been sunk into hybrid technology (apparently most of that on the Toyota-side was paid for by the taxpayers of Japan). Billions of dollars, as I've said, buys a lot of gas for people.
Oh, and the "flying car" I keep mentioning was yet another unsuccessful predicition as to what we'd all be "driving" in the future.
As I also said, GM sunk almost $2 billion into the EV1 with no return (just an incorrect movie bashing them) so looking at what a company is doing (but has not yet done) and using this as a success story is somewhat dubious, IMO.
Gasoline is a medium which stores energy - energy which is put to work when it is burned in an engine and is then used to make the car "go." A gallon of gasoline contains 35.09 kilowatt hours of energy (you would need nearly 10 pounds of coal to produce the same amount of energy). As I said, gasoline is the most efficient medium for storing energy that we currently have which is why (surprise) it runs in everything!
If you want some facts try reading this article:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...y_again_column
But, for example, to have a Prius run as an electric-only car:
"Range can be longer: Toyota says adding 11 battery packs, for a total of 12, would up electric-only range to 37 miles. It would also lift the Prius's price above $50,000."
Having a battery in my cell phone produces perhaps 4 hours of talk time. That's quite a stretch to go from that to driving 250 miles in a car powered by batteries. I never said batteries wouldn't "work" I said they wouldn't "work" to power a car by themselves.
I admire your spirit but on the science/economics you're not quite correct. As I said, BILLIONS have been sunk into hybrid technology (apparently most of that on the Toyota-side was paid for by the taxpayers of Japan). Billions of dollars, as I've said, buys a lot of gas for people.
Oh, and the "flying car" I keep mentioning was yet another unsuccessful predicition as to what we'd all be "driving" in the future.
As I also said, GM sunk almost $2 billion into the EV1 with no return (just an incorrect movie bashing them) so looking at what a company is doing (but has not yet done) and using this as a success story is somewhat dubious, IMO.
Honda is doing the same thing with the FCX (FCX Site ). It will only be leased in California and it will be very limited.
Electric is a very viable solution for the majority of commuters out there. A 40 mile range will get 90% or better of people to work each day. So in a car like the Volt, you could go for months without filling up. Yes an electric car has a limited range, but how often do you really need the added range. Most people drive less then 20 miles a day ( given in California a 20 mile drive can take 2 hours), it is still a great option and at this point I am game to anything that would start to get us off the dependency of another countries exported resource.
When it comes down to it, the middle east hates us, so why should we give them more money? Here is a nice article about Dubai. This is where a good portion of our money is going.
We have to have options and until we have something like a self contained fusion unit that will fit in a car, we have to do something. At this point, hybrid and pure electric are the way to go. I personally like the idea of a hybrid diesel. With all the wasted oil at fast food restaurants, we have enough fuel for quite some time. A renewable fuel source is not viable until we are able to get 150MPG from a car.
As for the plug in portion, I live in an area that is Hydro and Nuclear, very cheap and clean.
06-03-2008, 05:59 PM
#56
2G TLX-S
Originally Posted by Black_05_TL_6SP
.....
Electric is a very viable solution for the majority of commuters out there. A 40 mile range will get 90% or better of people to work each day. So in a car like the Volt, you could go for months without filling up. Yes an electric car has a limited range, but how often do you really need the added range. Most people drive less then 20 miles a day ( given in California a 20 mile drive can take 2 hours), it is still a great option and at this point I am game to anything that would start to get us off the dependency of another countries exported resource.
.....
06-03-2008, 06:46 PM
#57
Racer
>>Plug to charge electric cars are to the electric grid like E85 vehicles are to the food supply. The grid is already pretty fragile<<
The energy loads are really not as bad as you might think. If, as some claim, a 52 kwh battery can get you 300 miles that would mean to drive 20,000 miles a year you would need about 3467 kwh of electric a year. Electric hot water tanks in your house use from 3700 to 4700 kwh a year.
The worst time for energy loads are using hot summer days when everyone has their air conditioners on.
But the reality is we are not all going to switch to electric at once. And if the power company can't keep up or meet demand then I suppose a system could be devised so the charger in your garage that is charging you car can receive a signal (by cell tower or your home wi-fi) to cut back or stop charging the car in an emergency. And when excess power is available it could start recharging your car again OR store power in a ultra capacitor during off-peek hours or when the power company says its Ok....then when you plug in your car it gets its charge from that instead of directly from the grid.
But the ideal solution is to have a bunch of solar cells or wind generator on your roof charging and ultra cap all day....so when you pull in your power is sitting there waiting to go into the car.
The amount of energy we get from solar photo voltaics is about doubling every two years. At that rate we will be able to get all our power from the Sun in 20 years. And given the life cycle of a new car (factory to crusher) is about 17 years there is the possibility this is very do-able.
But we will all have to wait a few months more to see if these new batteries live up to their promise, and they make sense economically. I think someone will come up with a solution. There is now a whole bunch of money on the table for the guys who get it right
The energy loads are really not as bad as you might think. If, as some claim, a 52 kwh battery can get you 300 miles that would mean to drive 20,000 miles a year you would need about 3467 kwh of electric a year. Electric hot water tanks in your house use from 3700 to 4700 kwh a year.
The worst time for energy loads are using hot summer days when everyone has their air conditioners on.
But the reality is we are not all going to switch to electric at once. And if the power company can't keep up or meet demand then I suppose a system could be devised so the charger in your garage that is charging you car can receive a signal (by cell tower or your home wi-fi) to cut back or stop charging the car in an emergency. And when excess power is available it could start recharging your car again OR store power in a ultra capacitor during off-peek hours or when the power company says its Ok....then when you plug in your car it gets its charge from that instead of directly from the grid.
But the ideal solution is to have a bunch of solar cells or wind generator on your roof charging and ultra cap all day....so when you pull in your power is sitting there waiting to go into the car.
The amount of energy we get from solar photo voltaics is about doubling every two years. At that rate we will be able to get all our power from the Sun in 20 years. And given the life cycle of a new car (factory to crusher) is about 17 years there is the possibility this is very do-able.
But we will all have to wait a few months more to see if these new batteries live up to their promise, and they make sense economically. I think someone will come up with a solution. There is now a whole bunch of money on the table for the guys who get it right
06-03-2008, 07:45 PM
#58
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Originally Posted by mike03a3
Plug to charge electric cars are to the electric grid like E85 vehicles are to the food supply. The grid is already pretty fragile, remember the various NE blackouts? If there was any serious movement towards pure battery powered vehicles that had to be charged off the grid, the grid would collapse.
If there is a demand, it shall be built.As soon as they come out with a practical electric/hybrid plug in car, such as a TL version with decent acceleration, I will buy it. Even if it costs 40-50k. Just to make a statement.
06-03-2008, 08:10 PM
#59
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Originally Posted by mike03a3
Plug to charge electric cars are to the electric grid like E85 vehicles are to the food supply. The grid is already pretty fragile, remember the various NE blackouts? If there was any serious movement towards pure battery powered vehicles that had to be charged off the grid, the grid would collapse.
As others have said, this is not true. Most charging would be done at night when there is plenty of spare electric capacity. The grid may be fragile in some spots and there might be the occasional blackout, but it's certainly not going to collapse.
Originally Posted by jackspat2
Build more grid? If there is a demand, it shall be built.
06-03-2008, 09:28 PM
#60
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The reasons the EV1 could not be purchased was because of a few things. Firstly, it would have been hundreds of thousands of dollars. Secondly, it was essentially a one-off custom car... GM did not exactly have parts lying around. Thirdly, they did not know what warranty claims would be and didn't want to get into a legal snafu. Lastly, the car was experimental and who knew what would happen to it. Sort of like the Honda fuel cell car is now. It was only offered in warm states because cold kills the batteries.
Usually, the simplest answer is the correct one. If battery life/range/cost weren't such huge issues there'd be electric cars now. Let the market decide which technology works and which one does not. Right now, the most practical thing is a lighter gasoline car with a 4 cylinder engine that gets good MPG. Honda sold the CRX HF back in the 80s that got like 40 MPG on the highway.
Buck Rogers is great but doesn't make economic sense now.
I'm happy to drive my V6 and get 21 MPG. In the future, that might change but for now I'm good.
Usually, the simplest answer is the correct one. If battery life/range/cost weren't such huge issues there'd be electric cars now. Let the market decide which technology works and which one does not. Right now, the most practical thing is a lighter gasoline car with a 4 cylinder engine that gets good MPG. Honda sold the CRX HF back in the 80s that got like 40 MPG on the highway.
Buck Rogers is great but doesn't make economic sense now.
I'm happy to drive my V6 and get 21 MPG. In the future, that might change but for now I'm good.
06-03-2008, 09:58 PM
#61
Ryan Christopher
[QUOTE=CL6] Honda sold the CRX HF back in the 80s that got like 40 MPG on the highway.
[QUOTE]
Actually it was rated at 55MPG and achieved it. Even under todays MPG standards it still gets 52MPG. Great car, that is why I am looking forward to the CR-Z.
As for the batteries in the EV1, they where crude compared to todays batteries. Battery technology really has come along way and the new generation of hybrids and electric cars will prove it.
The Prius has proved its self the world over. The battery pack is very reliable and has out lasted the Engineers expectations for it. As much asa you may want to argue, you have to admit that something needs to be done and not everyone has the option of "riding the bus" or buying a civic. Riding the bus is a good option in an area like Cali where there is public transportation. But a vast majority of the US/world does not have the option to jump on a bus to go to work. As for a civic, what kind of country would this be if everyone was driving a civic? Truthfully the EX does not get the greatest gas mileage. I manage to get 25-26 MPG for my daily driving in the TL which is not far off of what you would see out of the civic. Highway I can get 32-33 MPG.
[QUOTE]
Actually it was rated at 55MPG and achieved it. Even under todays MPG standards it still gets 52MPG. Great car, that is why I am looking forward to the CR-Z.
As for the batteries in the EV1, they where crude compared to todays batteries. Battery technology really has come along way and the new generation of hybrids and electric cars will prove it.
The Prius has proved its self the world over. The battery pack is very reliable and has out lasted the Engineers expectations for it. As much asa you may want to argue, you have to admit that something needs to be done and not everyone has the option of "riding the bus" or buying a civic. Riding the bus is a good option in an area like Cali where there is public transportation. But a vast majority of the US/world does not have the option to jump on a bus to go to work. As for a civic, what kind of country would this be if everyone was driving a civic? Truthfully the EX does not get the greatest gas mileage. I manage to get 25-26 MPG for my daily driving in the TL which is not far off of what you would see out of the civic. Highway I can get 32-33 MPG.
06-03-2008, 10:08 PM
#62
Racer
Boy, there are a ton of Accords....and TL's out there. I could even live with 40 mile electric only range if some one out there would sell a conversion kit for these two cars with a small gas powered generator for extended range someone could make some $$ and I might go for it NOW.
Then when 10x Lithium Ion or ultra capacitors get here in maybe 1 or 2 years you could replace your batteries with them and get a 300 to 400 mile electric only range.
Actually using a small generator with electric drive motor (like locomotives) is pretty efficient, because that gas generator can run at its' most efficient speed all the time.
If only someone out there would market a complete conversion kit (with range extender generator). It's actually not so far fetched. My first computer (IMSAI 8080) was built from a kit 30 years ago. This stuff is no more complex than computers Heck, someone should even be able to sell you a regenerative braking kit too! Wonder if the regenerative brakes on the Tesla would fit a TL? Think they'd sell me a set? hehe
Then when 10x Lithium Ion or ultra capacitors get here in maybe 1 or 2 years you could replace your batteries with them and get a 300 to 400 mile electric only range.
Actually using a small generator with electric drive motor (like locomotives) is pretty efficient, because that gas generator can run at its' most efficient speed all the time.
If only someone out there would market a complete conversion kit (with range extender generator). It's actually not so far fetched. My first computer (IMSAI 8080) was built from a kit 30 years ago. This stuff is no more complex than computers
Heck, someone should even be able to sell you a regenerative braking kit too! Wonder if the regenerative brakes on the Tesla would fit a TL? Think they'd sell me a set? hehe
06-04-2008, 09:17 AM
#63
Ryan Christopher
Originally Posted by JeffNY
Boy, there are a ton of Accords....and TL's out there. I could even live with 40 mile electric only range if some one out there would sell a conversion kit for these two cars with a small gas powered generator for extended range someone could make some $$ and I might go for it NOW.
Then when 10x Lithium Ion or ultra capacitors get here in maybe 1 or 2 years you could replace your batteries with them and get a 300 to 400 mile electric only range.
Actually using a small generator with electric drive motor (like locomotives) is pretty efficient, because that gas generator can run at its' most efficient speed all the time.
If only someone out there would market a complete conversion kit (with range extender generator). It's actually not so far fetched. My first computer (IMSAI 8080) was built from a kit 30 years ago. This stuff is no more complex than computers Heck, someone should even be able to sell you a regenerative braking kit too! Wonder if the regenerative brakes on the Tesla would fit a TL? Think they'd sell me a set? hehe
Then when 10x Lithium Ion or ultra capacitors get here in maybe 1 or 2 years you could replace your batteries with them and get a 300 to 400 mile electric only range.
Actually using a small generator with electric drive motor (like locomotives) is pretty efficient, because that gas generator can run at its' most efficient speed all the time.
If only someone out there would market a complete conversion kit (with range extender generator). It's actually not so far fetched. My first computer (IMSAI 8080) was built from a kit 30 years ago. This stuff is no more complex than computers
Heck, someone should even be able to sell you a regenerative braking kit too! Wonder if the regenerative brakes on the Tesla would fit a TL? Think they'd sell me a set? hehe
06-04-2008, 03:21 PM
#64
Interesting thread. Lots of good info. If it was already discussed, I missed it, but what are everyone's thoughts on KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems)? As I understand it, the energy used in braking can be captured and used to recharge the batteries that drive the car. Seems to me a car that perpetually charges itself and therefore has no limit is possible. Of course, there would be some sort of maintenance. Formula 1 is supposed to start using this technology soon.
06-04-2008, 04:00 PM
#65
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My point is that the world runs on oil and gas and has for a very long time. Gasoline did not become king overnight, it took time. But it happened organically with people deciding on their own to buy gasoline-powered vehicles. There is pleny of oil left and the decision will be made by individuals what they want to do. It will take time... a long time before anything is 'settled.'
The Prius is a fine car if your goal is to 'save gas.' If you goal is to have a larger car or a good handling car or a sporty car then it is not the right one. I would never drive a Prius but that's my deal.
Say what you will about batteries but today they are too expensive to use for most cars except things like the Prius or Civic Hybrid. If the price of gas gets so expensive then people will go from 6 to 4 cylinders. If it gets too expensive for that then all bets are off.
It's great people are looking into other technologies but you best bet today if you can't take the bus is to buy a 4 cylinder Civic or Yaris or Cobalt or whatever floats your boat. America looks like it does because of cheap oil/gas. It took a long time to get that way and it will take a long time if it ever changes.
Everything else is just Mr. Wizard stuff IMO. Honda tried the V6 + Hybrid and it didn't work out. Maybe they will try something else. Maybe the TL will end up with a Hybrid option but I doubt it. I'd vote for the TSX (4 cylinders + Hybrid) instead.
People get really into this discussion but this stuff requires tons of money and the changing of habits... and to ignore either is foolish I think.
My girlfriend's Civic LX gets about 32 MPG on the freeway so maybe your name is Larry Leadfoot? I just don't have any interest in owning a 4 cylinder car or driving one for very long.
The Prius is a fine car if your goal is to 'save gas.' If you goal is to have a larger car or a good handling car or a sporty car then it is not the right one. I would never drive a Prius but that's my deal.
Say what you will about batteries but today they are too expensive to use for most cars except things like the Prius or Civic Hybrid. If the price of gas gets so expensive then people will go from 6 to 4 cylinders. If it gets too expensive for that then all bets are off.
It's great people are looking into other technologies but you best bet today if you can't take the bus is to buy a 4 cylinder Civic or Yaris or Cobalt or whatever floats your boat. America looks like it does because of cheap oil/gas. It took a long time to get that way and it will take a long time if it ever changes.
Everything else is just Mr. Wizard stuff IMO. Honda tried the V6 + Hybrid and it didn't work out. Maybe they will try something else. Maybe the TL will end up with a Hybrid option but I doubt it. I'd vote for the TSX (4 cylinders + Hybrid) instead.
People get really into this discussion but this stuff requires tons of money and the changing of habits... and to ignore either is foolish I think.
My girlfriend's Civic LX gets about 32 MPG on the freeway so maybe your name is Larry Leadfoot? I just don't have any interest in owning a 4 cylinder car or driving one for very long.
Originally Posted by Black_05_TL_6SP
Actually it was rated at 55MPG and achieved it. Even under todays MPG standards it still gets 52MPG. Great car, that is why I am looking forward to the CR-Z.
As for the batteries in the EV1, they where crude compared to todays batteries. Battery technology really has come along way and the new generation of hybrids and electric cars will prove it.
The Prius has proved its self the world over. The battery pack is very reliable and has out lasted the Engineers expectations for it. As much asa you may want to argue, you have to admit that something needs to be done and not everyone has the option of "riding the bus" or buying a civic. Riding the bus is a good option in an area like Cali where there is public transportation. But a vast majority of the US/world does not have the option to jump on a bus to go to work. As for a civic, what kind of country would this be if everyone was driving a civic? Truthfully the EX does not get the greatest gas mileage. I manage to get 25-26 MPG for my daily driving in the TL which is not far off of what you would see out of the civic. Highway I can get 32-33 MPG.
As for the batteries in the EV1, they where crude compared to todays batteries. Battery technology really has come along way and the new generation of hybrids and electric cars will prove it.
The Prius has proved its self the world over. The battery pack is very reliable and has out lasted the Engineers expectations for it. As much asa you may want to argue, you have to admit that something needs to be done and not everyone has the option of "riding the bus" or buying a civic. Riding the bus is a good option in an area like Cali where there is public transportation. But a vast majority of the US/world does not have the option to jump on a bus to go to work. As for a civic, what kind of country would this be if everyone was driving a civic? Truthfully the EX does not get the greatest gas mileage. I manage to get 25-26 MPG for my daily driving in the TL which is not far off of what you would see out of the civic. Highway I can get 32-33 MPG.
06-04-2008, 06:26 PM
#66
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Originally Posted by CL6
My point is that the world runs on oil and gas and has for a very long time. Gasoline did not become king overnight, it took time. But it happened organically with people deciding on their own to buy gasoline-powered vehicles. There is pleny of oil left and the decision will be made by individuals what they want to do. It will take time... a long time before anything is 'settled.'
The Prius is a fine car if your goal is to 'save gas.' If you goal is to have a larger car or a good handling car or a sporty car then it is not the right one. I would never drive a Prius but that's my deal.
Say what you will about batteries but today they are too expensive to use for most cars except things like the Prius or Civic Hybrid. If the price of gas gets so expensive then people will go from 6 to 4 cylinders. If it gets too expensive for that then all bets are off.
It's great people are looking into other technologies but you best bet today if you can't take the bus is to buy a 4 cylinder Civic or Yaris or Cobalt or whatever floats your boat. America looks like it does because of cheap oil/gas. It took a long time to get that way and it will take a long time if it ever changes.
Everything else is just Mr. Wizard stuff IMO. Honda tried the V6 + Hybrid and it didn't work out. Maybe they will try something else. Maybe the TL will end up with a Hybrid option but I doubt it. I'd vote for the TSX (4 cylinders + Hybrid) instead.
People get really into this discussion but this stuff requires tons of money and the changing of habits... and to ignore either is foolish I think.
My girlfriend's Civic LX gets about 32 MPG on the freeway so maybe your name is Larry Leadfoot? I just don't have any interest in owning a 4 cylinder car or driving one for very long.
The Prius is a fine car if your goal is to 'save gas.' If you goal is to have a larger car or a good handling car or a sporty car then it is not the right one. I would never drive a Prius but that's my deal.
Say what you will about batteries but today they are too expensive to use for most cars except things like the Prius or Civic Hybrid. If the price of gas gets so expensive then people will go from 6 to 4 cylinders. If it gets too expensive for that then all bets are off.
It's great people are looking into other technologies but you best bet today if you can't take the bus is to buy a 4 cylinder Civic or Yaris or Cobalt or whatever floats your boat. America looks like it does because of cheap oil/gas. It took a long time to get that way and it will take a long time if it ever changes.
Everything else is just Mr. Wizard stuff IMO. Honda tried the V6 + Hybrid and it didn't work out. Maybe they will try something else. Maybe the TL will end up with a Hybrid option but I doubt it. I'd vote for the TSX (4 cylinders + Hybrid) instead.
People get really into this discussion but this stuff requires tons of money and the changing of habits... and to ignore either is foolish I think.
My girlfriend's Civic LX gets about 32 MPG on the freeway so maybe your name is Larry Leadfoot? I just don't have any interest in owning a 4 cylinder car or driving one for very long.
I don't think anyone will argue that the world runs on oil and has for a very long time. But the oil is not going to last forever and the way it's currently used is terrible for the environment. Not too mention the Middle East controls most of the supply. There is plenty of data out there to suggest production is on the decline and that is being reflected in the price of oil.
You're right that a solution is going to take time. But efficient and affordable electric cars could be viable in the very near future.
06-05-2008, 09:31 AM
#67
Ryan Christopher
Originally Posted by CL6
My girlfriend's Civic LX gets about 32 MPG on the freeway so maybe your name is Larry Leadfoot? I just don't have any interest in owning a 4 cylinder car or driving one for very long.
As for how long the world has run on oil!! How about a century, 100 years! That is a blink in time compared to the existence of the world. It was not until the 1900 hundreds that oil became a fuel source. Steam spent more time in the spot light then oil.
The reason for our dependence on oil are people like you, not willing to make the change. I do agree with you on the Prius, not a fun car to drive (my grandmother owns one), but is a step in the right direction. At $4 a gallon I can live with my 25MPG for daily driving, but when it continues to go up and set new records on a daily basis, I would much rather have the option to go to something that gets 40-50MPG. Or even better, a car that is in the 100+ range.
As for performance, the Tesla PROVES that you can have performance with an electric car. It is insane how fast it is. Electric motors offer instant tq, something an internal combustion engine can never do. And 220 miles on a single charge would get me to and from work for a week. So I would only need to charge on the weekends during Non-peak time.
The comments and statements you have made through out this thread would make me think you are much older then the 39 years that is listed under your avatar. "We have done it this way for ever, so why should we change". That is the problem with this country, the old are in power and not willing to change.
No where in any of your statements have you agreed with anyone about this nation/world needing to change to 1)help the environment 2)help the economy. With the cost of oil doubling in the past year and fuel prices doubling in the last 2, that starts to cut into expendable income for a lot of families. This in turn does not allow for people to help stimulate the economy, in return causing us to start to spiral into a recession!! Isn't oil great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wake up and smell the coffee, things need to change, if you don't agree with the ideas that are out there, come up with your own, don't bash the ones people are currently trying!!
Some one brought up a great point about the current locomotives. They are all hybrid vehicles. It is a large battery pack with a diesel generator to keep them charged. We now have nuclear subs, carriers and battle ships. Why do you think this is? Most of the big cruise ships are giant electrical plants, they only produce electricity to turn the props.
It all has to start somewhere and that is with each and everyone of us voicing to our government what we want to see done. There are plenty of projects that I would like to do around the house, but have to wait to do them because my budget has been shifted to accommodate mine as well as my wifes fuel bills.
So if you are not feeling the pinch, thats great for you, but a vast majority of the US is (and the rest of the world has been for sometime).
06-05-2008, 12:21 PM
#68
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The Tesla costs 100k. That's a lot of $$ for good 0-60 times. There is plenty of oil out there. Fact is, Congress has made 85% of our coastline off limits for drilling (meanwhile China drills off Florida near Cuba). Higher prices are better if only because they force people to buy more fuel efficient cars but I'm hardly part of the problem.... I actually like being able to determine for myself what I drive and, by extension, how much I spend on gasoline. When that ratio becomes uncomfortable for me I will switch but we aren't there yet.
I have a hard time buying into the income arguement and gas. People spent way too much money on credit cards when gas was cheap buying crap they didn't need and wracking up a lot of debt in the process. That's their problem that they bought TVs at Walmart and now can't "afford" gasoline and they bought huge gas sucking cars.. So many other things are so cheap that it's hardly a crisis. Many of these people chose to live far from where they work so they can afford the "American dream" of owning their house. I live close to work and always have. My commute is 4 minutes if I drive. Not my problem someone has to commute an hour or two each way to work and now their expenses are higher. Life is tough. We don't have the problems most people alive do like starvation, tsunamis, disentary killing our children, or civil war. Our environment is cleaner than it is in almost any industrialized country. In the big picture, we have it better than probably 99% of the people who have ever lived.
By the way... I am younger than the age listed on my profile.
I don't have problems with moving from gas, I have a problem with some people who think they know better trying to force one set of behaviors they consider better to replace another set.
And if you or anybody else based their life around cheap gas then I guess a mistake was made. History shows that everything only gets more expensive as time goes by. You have to plan for that.
I have a hard time buying into the income arguement and gas. People spent way too much money on credit cards when gas was cheap buying crap they didn't need and wracking up a lot of debt in the process. That's their problem that they bought TVs at Walmart and now can't "afford" gasoline and they bought huge gas sucking cars.. So many other things are so cheap that it's hardly a crisis. Many of these people chose to live far from where they work so they can afford the "American dream" of owning their house. I live close to work and always have. My commute is 4 minutes if I drive. Not my problem someone has to commute an hour or two each way to work and now their expenses are higher. Life is tough. We don't have the problems most people alive do like starvation, tsunamis, disentary killing our children, or civil war. Our environment is cleaner than it is in almost any industrialized country. In the big picture, we have it better than probably 99% of the people who have ever lived.
By the way... I am younger than the age listed on my profile.
I don't have problems with moving from gas, I have a problem with some people who think they know better trying to force one set of behaviors they consider better to replace another set.
And if you or anybody else based their life around cheap gas then I guess a mistake was made. History shows that everything only gets more expensive as time goes by. You have to plan for that.
06-05-2008, 01:18 PM
#69
Ryan Christopher
Originally Posted by CL6
And if you or anybody else based their life around cheap gas then I guess a mistake was made. History shows that everything only gets more expensive as time goes by. You have to plan for that.
"Moore's law describes an important trend in the history of computer hardware: that the number of transistors that can be inexpensively placed on an integrated circuit is increasing exponentially, doubling approximately every two years"
This is only one example. Things increase in value due to inflation, not time. A car does not go up in value unless it is limited and considered a collectors item.
Even if that where the case, increase in cost should be gradual, not instant as is the case with the current gas prices.
So in your belief, that since the US is so clean, that we should not worry about gas and its the rest of the world that is polluting the environment? That we have a endless supply of oil? So why bother with be creative and coming up with new ideas to replace the internal combustion engine. You really are one of the most ignorant people I have ever come across. Good luck with life!
06-05-2008, 02:33 PM
#70
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I've heard of Moore's Law but Murphy's Law trumps all other laws. And gas prices are what they are for a wide variety of reasons and those reasons did not happen overnight. For example, China consumes a large amount of oil now but did you know that the Chinese consumer pays the same for a litre of gas today as they did 2 years ago? Do you know why? Because the Communist Government there fixed the price of fuel. So the Chinese consumer feels no pinch in the price of fuel and thus has no reason to conserve so their consumption continues to rise even as U.S. consumers cut back. India is the same way. This is but one example. Also, during the 90s, much of Asia was in an economic slowdown and this artificially lowered the price of oil. Further, speculators who bet on oil increasing in price don't need to back the majority of their bets with real money so they are really the driving force in why fuel has increased so quickly. Lastly, the U.S. Congress has steadfastly refused to allow any oil exploration in this country even while "complaining" about high oil prices and blocking development of proven technologies such as nuclear (which powers 85% of France for example). They are a huge part of the problem.
I never said oil is an unlimited resource.
My statement about the overall condition of the environment in the U.S. was in reply to you saying that we needed to move away from gasoline because of how much pollution it generates. This is a red herring commonly used by people in discussions about "alternative" energy.
I appreciate the comment about me being ignorant. Thank you. I have never said that I am against 'alternative' forms of transportation only that I would prefer to let the market dictate those and let private companies decide on a level playing field what they will invest in and what they won't. As I said earlier, market forces are brutally efficient in picking winning strategies and technologies (they are why your Moore's Law works).
And as to my life, I'm doing fine, thank you.
I never said oil is an unlimited resource.
My statement about the overall condition of the environment in the U.S. was in reply to you saying that we needed to move away from gasoline because of how much pollution it generates. This is a red herring commonly used by people in discussions about "alternative" energy.
I appreciate the comment about me being ignorant. Thank you. I have never said that I am against 'alternative' forms of transportation only that I would prefer to let the market dictate those and let private companies decide on a level playing field what they will invest in and what they won't. As I said earlier, market forces are brutally efficient in picking winning strategies and technologies (they are why your Moore's Law works).
And as to my life, I'm doing fine, thank you.
Originally Posted by Black_05_TL_6SP
What????? Have you never heard of Moore's Law?
"Moore's law describes an important trend in the history of computer hardware: that the number of transistors that can be inexpensively placed on an integrated circuit is increasing exponentially, doubling approximately every two years"
This is only one example. Things increase in value due to inflation, not time. A car does not go up in value unless it is limited and considered a collectors item.
Even if that where the case, increase in cost should be gradual, not instant as is the case with the current gas prices.
So in your belief, that since the US is so clean, that we should not worry about gas and its the rest of the world that is polluting the environment? That we have a endless supply of oil? So why bother with be creative and coming up with new ideas to replace the internal combustion engine. You really are one of the most ignorant people I have ever come across. Good luck with life!
"Moore's law describes an important trend in the history of computer hardware: that the number of transistors that can be inexpensively placed on an integrated circuit is increasing exponentially, doubling approximately every two years"
This is only one example. Things increase in value due to inflation, not time. A car does not go up in value unless it is limited and considered a collectors item.
Even if that where the case, increase in cost should be gradual, not instant as is the case with the current gas prices.
So in your belief, that since the US is so clean, that we should not worry about gas and its the rest of the world that is polluting the environment? That we have a endless supply of oil? So why bother with be creative and coming up with new ideas to replace the internal combustion engine. You really are one of the most ignorant people I have ever come across. Good luck with life!
06-05-2008, 09:45 PM
#71
Racer
Hi Guys,
I don't want to add gasoline, so to speak, to this discussion between you two, and I think I, like most here, agree with CL6 that the market should rule.
But this last back-and-forth of the price of things over time had me recall the Simon-Ehrlich wager. I can't believe there is even a Wiki article on it! But here it is. Simon won...
The Simon-Ehrlich wager
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon-Ehrlich_wager
"More people, and increased income, cause resources to become more scarce in the short run. Heightened scarcity causes prices to rise. The higher prices present opportunity, and prompt inventors and entrepreneurs to search for solutions. Many fail in the search, at cost to themselves. But in a free society, solutions are eventually found. And in the long run the new developments leave us better off than if the problems had not arisen. That is, prices eventually become lower than before the increased scarcity occurred. — Julian Simon"
....that's why, much as I hate to part with the cash at the pump, one side of me says "yea baby, hit $6 bucks a gallon! The electric car, batteries and solar cells will get here even faster...and big oil and OPEC can stick this gas nozzel up their rear!!".
I don't want to add gasoline, so to speak, to this discussion between you two, and I think I, like most here, agree with CL6 that the market should rule.
But this last back-and-forth of the price of things over time had me recall the Simon-Ehrlich wager. I can't believe there is even a Wiki article on it! But here it is. Simon won...
The Simon-Ehrlich wager
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon-Ehrlich_wager
"More people, and increased income, cause resources to become more scarce in the short run. Heightened scarcity causes prices to rise. The higher prices present opportunity, and prompt inventors and entrepreneurs to search for solutions. Many fail in the search, at cost to themselves. But in a free society, solutions are eventually found. And in the long run the new developments leave us better off than if the problems had not arisen. That is, prices eventually become lower than before the increased scarcity occurred. — Julian Simon"
....that's why, much as I hate to part with the cash at the pump, one side of me says "yea baby, hit $6 bucks a gallon! The electric car, batteries and solar cells will get here even faster...and big oil and OPEC can stick this gas nozzel up their rear!!".
06-05-2008, 11:17 PM
#72
You guys have been effective in killing this thread....09 TL Hybrid
Please take your "discussion" somewhere else.....or put on boxing gloves lol
Why people have to get personal in a forum is beyond me....Just agree to disagree
I like the concept of a TSX hybrid as a gap car between hybrid and some other energy source....I don't think we will see a hybrid TL anytime..maybe diesel though.
The hybrid camry's mpg is pretty blah as well, not much better than out TL's
Did some research on the civic natural gas model......looks under powered and the mpg is not great at all...but on the bright side, hardly any harmful by-products
Please take your "discussion" somewhere else.....or put on boxing gloves lol
Why people have to get personal in a forum is beyond me....Just agree to disagree
I like the concept of a TSX hybrid as a gap car between hybrid and some other energy source....I don't think we will see a hybrid TL anytime..maybe diesel though.
The hybrid camry's mpg is pretty blah as well, not much better than out TL's
Did some research on the civic natural gas model......looks under powered and the mpg is not great at all...but on the bright side, hardly any harmful by-products
06-05-2008, 11:25 PM
#73
Racer
Aww, come on scv76, a sprited debate is a good thing...and things should not get 'personal', but a little rolling around in the mud is Ok too, as long as people leave the knives and guns at home
06-05-2008, 11:40 PM
#74
Racer
Back on topic, actually I was just about to post some info on regenerative braking. I appears the regen braking in the Tesla comes from the motor, not units at each wheel.
So if someone offered a conversion kit for a TL, and the controller supported it, you could get regen braking from the motor!
Even the company above that offers conversion kits (electroauto) offers regen on their AC kits. Cool. I need contact them and see when their TL conversion kit will ship....hehe
The Magic of Tesla Roadster Regenerative Braking
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=58
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_braking
So if someone offered a conversion kit for a TL, and the controller supported it, you could get regen braking from the motor!
Even the company above that offers conversion kits (electroauto) offers regen on their AC kits. Cool. I need contact them and see when their TL conversion kit will ship....hehe
The Magic of Tesla Roadster Regenerative Braking
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=58
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_braking
06-06-2008, 12:27 AM
#75
Racer
WOW...just stumbled across this....
Honda, it is NOW officially time to press the Panic button! While you guys are busy playing with hydrogen and fuel cells...and we discuss the mythical "'09 TL Hybrid" here... these guys are about to ship a SECOND EV and cannibalize your RL sales. Honda, that 19 MPG rating the RL has now all of a sudden looks A WHOLE LOT worse hehe
These guys have already shown they can "ship product", and darn nice looking and performing product at that.
A 5 Series-Like car that runs on electric AND has a range extender....I REALLY like the sounds of that! THIS I will be watching.....careful with that hydrogen Honda, that stuff can explode
http://www.leftlanenews.com/telsa-to...tar-sedan.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_WhiteStar
"WhiteStar is being designed as a high performance electric sedan, competing with such cars as the BMW 5-series. .....Initial pricing is estimated at $50,000 for the standard model or $65,000 for a premium model with greater performance and range."
Honda, it is NOW officially time to press the Panic button! While you guys are busy playing with hydrogen and fuel cells...and we discuss the mythical "'09 TL Hybrid" here... these guys are about to ship a SECOND EV and cannibalize your RL sales. Honda, that 19 MPG rating the RL has now all of a sudden looks A WHOLE LOT worse hehe
These guys have already shown they can "ship product", and darn nice looking and performing product at that.
A 5 Series-Like car that runs on electric AND has a range extender....I REALLY like the sounds of that! THIS I will be watching.....careful with that hydrogen Honda, that stuff can explode
http://www.leftlanenews.com/telsa-to...tar-sedan.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_WhiteStar
"WhiteStar is being designed as a high performance electric sedan, competing with such cars as the BMW 5-series. .....Initial pricing is estimated at $50,000 for the standard model or $65,000 for a premium model with greater performance and range."
06-06-2008, 01:30 AM
#76
Racer
Well, add another to the high-end EV and REV race.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_Karma
http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/
"Although Fisker Automotive has yet to release solid statistics regarding Karma’s fuel economy, the company estimates the average driver will only have to refill the gas tank annually.
It features a 125mph top speed and is capable of reaching 60mph from a standstill in 5.8 seconds."
BUT they are being sued by Tesla, so who knows how it will wash out. But things seem to be looking brighter out there for alternatives to ICE cars....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_Karma
http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/
"Although Fisker Automotive has yet to release solid statistics regarding Karma’s fuel economy, the company estimates the average driver will only have to refill the gas tank annually.
It features a 125mph top speed and is capable of reaching 60mph from a standstill in 5.8 seconds."
BUT they are being sued by Tesla, so who knows how it will wash out. But things seem to be looking brighter out there for alternatives to ICE cars....
06-06-2008, 02:49 PM
#77
Racer
Did you all see oil hit $139 a barrel today? We may hit $150 before 6 months, like Boone Pickens and others were predicting above.
Goldman Sachs predicted $141 a barrel in 6 months on 5/22/08 (seen my post above). We are now only TWO DOLLARS away from that now just 15 days later!
If these car companies want to sell cars again they need to get some products out there people WANT to buy. This 19 MPG (RL) and 21 MPG (TL) ain't gonna cut it. But they know that now I think.
You know, Honda is one of the great motorcycle builders of the world (I have two in my garage right now, among other makes). Would it be cool to see Acura sell something similar to this:
.....maybe called the Acura Wing ??? Or maybe better left to the Honda brand??
http://www.flytheroad.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venture_one
....Venture One has some serious engineering companies involved in building their line of "bikes" (based on the Carver)
I think one of these would be great fun, safe(r), and economical. Even for a TL owner.
We may hit $150 before 6 months, like Boone Pickens and others were predicting above.Goldman Sachs predicted $141 a barrel in 6 months on 5/22/08 (seen my post above). We are now only TWO DOLLARS away from that now just 15 days later!
If these car companies want to sell cars again they need to get some products out there people WANT to buy. This 19 MPG (RL) and 21 MPG (TL) ain't gonna cut it. But they know that now I think.
You know, Honda is one of the great motorcycle builders of the world (I have two in my garage right now, among other makes). Would it be cool to see Acura sell something similar to this:
.....maybe called the Acura Wing ??? Or maybe better left to the Honda brand??
http://www.flytheroad.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venture_one
....Venture One has some serious engineering companies involved in building their line of "bikes" (based on the Carver)
I think one of these would be great fun, safe(r), and economical. Even for a TL owner.
06-06-2008, 03:13 PM
#78
My only car is a Bus
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Something about electric cars that brings out the Utopians and the "I can't wait for $400 per barrel of oil" crowd.
Something else about oil prices that's interesting...
1982 - 301 refineries operating
2008 - 149 refineries operating
1982 - 17 million barrels of oil per day in the US
2007 - 21 million barrels of oil per day in the US
1982 - US population - 231,664,458
2008 - US population - 303,146,284
Something else about oil prices that's interesting...
1982 - 301 refineries operating
2008 - 149 refineries operating
1982 - 17 million barrels of oil per day in the US
2007 - 21 million barrels of oil per day in the US
1982 - US population - 231,664,458
2008 - US population - 303,146,284
06-06-2008, 03:47 PM
#79
Racer
>>Something about electric cars that brings out the Utopians and the "I can't wait for $400 per barrel of oil" crowd.<<
I guess you do just like to argue CL6. Still no solutions from you though...besides riding a bus. I bet if you lived in 1885 you'd be saying "An engine? Why do I need an engine on my wagon? My horse does fine. Besides, there in not one major company in the world building automobiles. Yea, and someday we will have powered flight too!! hahaha"
Still can't figure out the point of your statistics above. What's your point? Is there one?
I guess you do just like to argue CL6. Still no solutions from you though...besides riding a bus. I bet if you lived in 1885 you'd be saying "An engine? Why do I need an engine on my wagon? My horse does fine. Besides, there in not one major company in the world building automobiles. Yea, and someday we will have powered flight too!! hahaha"
Still can't figure out the point of your statistics above. What's your point? Is there one?
06-06-2008, 04:08 PM
#80
My only car is a Bus
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My post was in reference to your point... if you had one (smily face and all):
The statistics help to illustrate why our prices are higher now.
My "solution" is to let our market-based system produce a winning technology, which it will. My other "solutions" were to buy a 4 cylinder car if you felt you needed better gas mileage or live closer to where you work. Carpooling is another good solution or just earning more money.
Honda tried the V6/Hybrid thing with the Accord and it failed in a huge way... they will not make the same mistake again with the TL.
And as I said... some people take glee in higher energy costs because they believe it will make their dream of how society should look come closer to a reality.
Originally Posted by JeffNY
Did you all see oil hit $139 a barrel today? We may hit $150 before 6 months, like Boone Pickens and others were predicting above.
We may hit $150 before 6 months, like Boone Pickens and others were predicting above.My "solution" is to let our market-based system produce a winning technology, which it will. My other "solutions" were to buy a 4 cylinder car if you felt you needed better gas mileage or live closer to where you work. Carpooling is another good solution or just earning more money.
Honda tried the V6/Hybrid thing with the Accord and it failed in a huge way... they will not make the same mistake again with the TL.
And as I said... some people take glee in higher energy costs because they believe it will make their dream of how society should look come closer to a reality.