bradhuckabee

with a 3.5L would be amazing because living in seattle with gas prices being almost $4.00 a gallon and talk of it being $10.00 a gallon within 5 years a hybrid tl from acura i think would be a huge hit

TSX69

Altho I do wish that Acura would incoporate @ least 1 hybrid into their lineup, it seems doubtful. Honda has often said that their IMA system works best in small cars & plan on using diesels for their larger vehicles. After the failure of the Accord performance hybrid, I doubt that the TL will get the IMA system but the diesel is likely if the TSX's turbo diesel is successful.

It does seem a shame that other luxury makers are bringing hybrids out but Acura, as usual, is going a different route.

Maybe Acura will get its own version of the upcoming dedicated Honda hybrid.

09TSX

I don't know about you guys but I am not a big fan of the hybrid. I think its a bit overhyped, just like ethanol is! I'd rather Honda work on a new energy system that doesn't rely on oil...either hydrogen, fuel cellbatteries or something like that but hybrid still makes us rely on the foreign oil and SPECULATORS!!

fsttyms1

hybrids cost premium vs their actual real life gains arent worth it. Some of you need to understand there is not a quick fix for the gas prices and we need to get use to it till something comes along that is main streamed and affordable. It will be many years till we can ween ourselves off of oil as a fuel.

redman042

Very true. The bottom line on hybrids is a losing proposition. Yes you do reduce emissions to the environment, and that's the true benefit. You absolutely do not save money overall, given that the extra cost of a hybrid is much more than 5 to 10 years worth of gas savings.

It's like the people that run out and trade in their larger vehicles for something more fuel efficient. The irony is that most of the time the hit they took on the trade far exceeds what they will save in gas over the life of the vehicle. With that said, I don't discourage the trades, because it does reduce our overall gas consumption, assuming at least some of those trades leave the highways eventually.

Since Hondas and Acuras are ULEV vehicles, just choosing this brand goes a long way towards helping reduce emissions.

JAB00

I think diesel technology is more efficent and the way to go over hybrids. However, hybrids are decent on smaller cars.

Edward'TLS

If the TL hybrid is to boost hp (like the Lexus hybrid cars), it will probably work for the Acura brand. But it has to be some serious hp, something like 50-100 more hp. Otherwise it will be just another lame Accord Hybrid that no one wants.

jdb8805

Um, not really if you consider the carbon footprint for what it takes to produce the Nickel based batteries.

Edward'TLS

Don't forget about the damage to the environment and personal health, when the tons and tons of exhausted rechargeable hybrid car batteries have to be disposed of.

redman042

Diesel hybrids... they are anticipating 100 mpg... that would potentially get me to buy a hybrid.

bradhuckabee

but then again diesel is more expensive than gas

TylerT

iTrader: (1)

Diesel also goes a lot further than regular gasoline.

100mpg Diesel hybrid would be brilliant.

fsttyms1

Not to mention you can make your own fuel and get diesel motors to run on just about any thing.

TSX69

Altho I do agree that hybrids currently are not really worth the premium, I do feel that Acura should have 1 just to say they have 1. Otherwise, I can see it being just like RWD & V8 ... people are constantly going to point out that other luxury brands have them but Acura does not. Like Honda, maybe Acura cannot win the hp war but they can win the mpg war (if there is such a thing).

Speaking of V8s, I see them as pretty much the same as hybrids: is it really worth the premium? The additional cost of buying/owning a v8 probably outweighs its usefulness for the average driver (do you really need/use over 300hp & 300lbs of torque on a regular basis?)

erick3

10 bones a gal?! WOW first time hearing that...

JeffNY

Just on CNBC:
- "Oil up 100% from a year ago"
- "Oil up 600% in just 7 years"

- Boone Pickens predicts $150 / barrel in 6 months
- Goldman Sachs predicts $141 / barrel in 6 months
- Simmons predicts $200-$500 in 6 months to 4 years
- CIBC says $225 in 2012

[....I love my DVR ]

......not sure if you guys followed my posts in another thread here about maybe getting a version of the TL that got higher than 21 MPG. But a lot of guys scoff at that request. They love that gas pump

I was one of the guys who had hopes for hydrogen powered cars. But I think we are about to leap frog that and fuel cells.

Honda has plans to sell you solar panels that are then used to make hydrogen for the "Home Energy Station" and to power the Honda FCX:
See the current episode of Autoline called "Inside Honda"
http://www.autolinedetroit.tv/

Applaud Honda. But why waste energy (electricity) during the conversion process if you can just store and use it?

"Battery" technology has advanced tons because of cell phones and lap tops, and even more so in just the last year or so:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-poly
and THIS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eestor
....that is just two of the new battery technologies.

Lets assume these will soon work and your car is powered by an electric motor and you have a 52 kWh battery that will get you 300 miles. I pay .153 cents per kW (including "delivery charge"), that means I could "tank up" for just $7.96. Verses about $60 bucks worth of gas.

Power your car from the grid, or solar cells, or wind. How cool is that....power directly from the Sun powering your car for pennies a mile No drilling, no refining, no transporting of crude then gasoline, no oil speculators driving up prices, no financing of idots around the world for their oil, no dependancy on anyone. Hey Iran, watch what happens to your country when no one is buying your oil

Still unsure? Look what Byran here did in his garage:
http://www.evalbum.com/475.html
....as soon as he gets a set of "ultra capacitors" in there he's set. If Bryan can build one I think Honda can too hahaha

By the way, your car already has about 30 electric motors....what's one more, to actually drive the car

Electric car performance? 0-60 in 3.9 seconds Ok?
http://www.teslamotors.com/

I hate to say it (as a former owner of an '84 Blazer God I hate to say it) but I think GM has the concept right with the Volt, electric drive, batteries and small emergency generator for when you use all your battery power:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt
http://gm-volt.com/

The internal combustion engine really is complex, costly to run and inefficient compared to electric motors. And just think, no pollution, no EGR valve, no O2 sensor, no exhaust system, no air filters, no oil changes, no timing belts, no, bla bla bla....

In my humble opinion, the future is electric. And the sooner the better

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

Good lord... This thread is crazy full of misinformation. As a proud owner of a 2008 civic hybrid, allow me to set a few things straight.

1) The Civic Hybrid costs about $4K more than a similarly equipped Honda EX. I'm SAVING $140/month in gas by commuting in the Civic vs. the TL. At that savings rate, the cost difference in paid in 28 months... Not 10 years.

The ROI is quickly realized for people who drive more than 12 miles a day. The hybrid movement is for folks who commute, not garage queeners who are pissed at the $68 gas bill every 3 weeks.

Does it make sense to trade in... Do the math. My TL stays under warranty.
After selling my SUV, and putting the proceeds (10K) down on the civic, the gas SAVINGS pay all but $75 of my monthly payment.

The maintenence cycle on the hybrid is retarded... There's nothing to it

2) Fuels Cells, Hydrogen, Electricity... all viable. None of it will happen overnight. It's about WEENING off foreign oil, not cold turkeying it. Ride a bike when you can, take a bus/train in the city, and when you gotta drive, drive a hybrid... That's how it begins... but until the technology is mature and sustainable
My TL is a "Hobby car" now, and that's OK too.

3) Batteries are recycled, with little to no environmental impact... Geez. They don't end up in the dump.

4) Diesel's viable as well, but even with the ULSD standards in place, they're not as cost effective. At a marked 20% higher fuel cost with a 10-15% LESS milage than IMA... Is it really that good of a deal? 100mpg diesel hybrid...? Wow. maybe if you supplant a 1.0L Diesel motorcyle engine into the IMA setup, but unsure how the diesel could provide enough output to charge the battery and pull the car under hard loads.
Make your own fuel? BioD and WVO are novel... but again highly unsustainable... and they break the fuel pumps. Modern diesels are so high output becasue of the amazing mechanical technology of the fule pumps... which don't react well with "other fuels".
and bioD and ethanol take much more energy to produce... unless we have another planet to turn into a farm, those are mere short term bandaids.

Am I saying hybrid technology is the shit... No way. The revolution has to start somewhere... Until the market demands change, there will be none.

What's happening right now is a lot of Honda/Acura luxury sport product lines being scuttled in place for more effecient power plants...

evoman

CLAP CLAP...couldn't have said it any better myself Kennedy....

I too have been driving my little '03 civic here in Canada where 87 gas is $5.45/gallon and 91 is $5.84/gallon....It really is about saving $$$ and the environment is a bonus too.

If gas ever reaches that price in the US, I bet you alot of peeps here would stop complaining about hybrids and realize that they do help you save...and the more hybrids that companies sell...the cheaper it will get to make emmm....My next car is most likely gonna be a hybrid or a plug-in hybrid....

My 07 TLS just sits in the garage...been there for like 10 months with only 600 miles on the odo.....I drive it once in a while when i need some excitement.

ndabunka

I have a Hybrid. I have a TL. My TL gets better fuel economy on the interstate. My Hybrid gets better FE in the city. The 4x4 hybrid goes zero to sixty in about the same 6.1 seconds it takes my TL to get there. Hybrid's are "OK" but a honking V6 in an SUV to give it SO much pep is a bit ridiculous. I wish they would have simply honored their original contract to deliver the originally promised 33MPG instead of the ACTUAL 26 average City, interstate, etc it's ALWAYS 26MPG).

Other technologies are better suited. Bloom energy (read Business Disruptors Oct, 2007) and other fuel cells have a LOT of promise. My company is already working with these guys to make them more efficient. Sure, gas will get more expensive, there is simply no reason for it not too be VERY expensive. Buy oil stocks if you want a hedge.

JeffNY

This is a little off topic but I thought you guys might find it fun. Above I said your car already has about 30 electric motors. Well for fun I started to make a list and came up with over 40...and I probably missed a few on the engine. Anyone care to edit / refine the list?

4 - windows
4 - door locks
2 - moon roof
4 - mirrors
8 - front seats (maybe more?)
2 - hvac fan / vent system
1 - wipers
1 - washer fluid pump
1 - radiator fan
1 - engine starter
1 - a/c clutch
1 - differential lock up
1 - trunk latch
3 - cassette player
3 - cd player
3 - Navi dvd player
1 - fuel pump
1 - alternator (motor in reverse)

engine variable timing actuator?
front window defroster fan?
ABS brakes?
transmission solenoids?
power steering pump?
speakers convert electrical energy to mechanical energy....add 8 or 9 I think if you count them

ndabunka

A "little" off topic? Too much time on your hands? Sure, a typical Hybrid is an electric and a petrol engine but a regular electric motor by itself has NOTHING to do with the term "Hybrid" as it has no mechanism for using either of two energy sources. So, what's your intention of this post?

JeffNY

My point above was we already use electric motors in cars, for all kinds of things. I waa not refering to "hybrids", I was refering to an "EV", electric vehicle. I think when a lot of people first hear "electric car" they think "Oh I don't know about that, can they really work?". When in reality they rely on electric motors to do all sorts of stuff on their cars now and may not even realize how much they already depend on them.

When I first heard someone say our cars today have 25 or 30 electric motors I said "What?" and really had to think about it. I was like "Wow!"

Now if we can just get one more about the size of a watermellon in there under the hood....and send that exploding fire box we use now to the museum with the steam engine.

Toyota and Nissan have recently announced plans to build plants to build batteries for cars. GM is betting the company on it. Honda still not seeing the future? I really can't say that, they are some of the best innovators and engineers in the world for sure - and know a lot more than I do on this subject most likely. But as a company built on building internal combustion engines it may be harder for them to accept there is a better alternative showing up on the scene now.

I have never owned an electric car (yet), but I have owned several Hyster forklifts for 15 years now. Reliability and cost of ownership are awesome. I would never even think about buying another propane (combustion engine) powered lift truck for what I use them for.

JeffNY

Oh, and my "intention" of that post above was just to point out a very interesting statistic and see if anyone could think of any others. I am sure I missed a few. It's called "having some fun"

JeffNY

Jay Leno in his electric sports car:
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/...tml?vid=229378

Come Acura, let's get on the stick! Don't waste money or time investing in "hybrids" or hydrogen fuel cells. EV's are the future.

Imagine a fuel cell car.....you use lots of electricity to make hydrogen, then put the hydrogen in the car where a fuel cell turns it BACK into electricity to run an electric motor on the car! What a waste of energy! Just put the energy in a battery and use it!

My next new car will have a plug....hey Acura, no plug no sale, sorry hehehe

I don't expect Honda or Acura to start selling electric cars next week or even next year. But so far Honda seems to be ignoring a whole solution that by all counts seems to be better than anything they are pursuing now. While the rest of the auto industry is investing and making plans, building battery plants and prototypes and even announcing models that they will sell by 2010 and moving on...

CL6

You got 100 grand for an electric sports car? Ha ha how stupid.

A true electric car requires very expensive batteries that will need to be replaced fairly often. Another pipe dream. Buy a Civic and take the bus.

Dr.P

I remember 10 yrs ago in India they were selling a conversion kit for Rs. 10000 roughly $250 to convert a petrol car. It would give you a switch on ur dash & you could switch from gas to CNG.

The other day I was reading an article where CNG in utah is comparable to $.29/gal & here in Cali @$2.50/gal. I did some research online & there are some conversion kits out there. Wouldn't it be cool if you could fit some type of conversion kits in our cars, would have to give up some trunk space for the CNG tanks but then could run our engines longer & cleaner on CNG that's cheaper.

JeffNY

>>You got 100 grand for an electric sports car? Ha ha how stupid.

A true electric car requires very expensive batteries that will need to be replaced fairly often. Another pipe dream. Buy a Civic and take the bus.<<

YOU MISSED THE WHOLE POINT!!!! The battery technology IS here now, and the cost will rapidly drop as GM uses them in cars like the Volt. and Toyota and Nissan start using them, they are building plants NOW to mass produce Lithium Ion batteries. By the way, GM's batteries are made by A123 and LG Chemical. If you have the time check them out.....I know, it's easier to fire a dumb-a$$ uninformed comment than to read and actually understand what you are talking about. But give it a try.

The batteries in the Tesla are also Lithium Ion. The next generation Li-Poly batteries for cars will offer better energy density, lower cost and may last the life of the vehicle (10+ years).

Further out, a year or two, you will see "ultra capacitors" that offer even HIGHER energy density, lower weight and unlimited charging and discharging with NO DEGRADATION at all.

By the way, I provided links to read up on both above. Too bad you did not read them. The science is pretty much done. They work.

Oh, and even at a $100,000 the Tesla sports car can out accelerate sports cars that cost several times its' cost and requires NO GAS and a whole lot less maintenance, almost none actually (...I've heard a lot of Lamborginis sit in their garages waiting for the mechanic to come fix them or tune them up). Not so "stupid", as you put it, to me.

Still no word from Honda on what they are doing....besides pursing expensive "fuel cells" that REALLY would make an Accord cost $100,000+.

Battery technology is far beyond what it was even two years ago. And we are just scratching the surface. It will only improve from here.

"Pipe dream"? "very expensive batteries that will need to be replaced fairly often"? I guess GM, Toyota and Nissan disagree with your "expert" and "well informed" opinion.

B K R

IIRC that was LPG & not CNG. And that was on old engines which used to be carburetted and did not have modern technologies as available in engine being made today. Anyhow I think those things were fire hazard and were eventually shut down.

However instead of LPG if we can get a CNG then I think that would be worth trying as it would safer than LPG

CL6

To my knowledge, there are no mainstream 'electric only' cars being sold anywhere in the world. The Tesla is a two seat niche product that costs $100,000.00 and drives fewer than 250 miles before needing a recharge. GM sunk almost $2 billion into the EV1 and, obviously, never turned a profit. The Chevy Volt is a concept car and I wouldn't count on seeing that next to an Imapala at your nearest dealership anytime soon largely because battery life is extended in hybrids by never fully charging them or never fully letting them discharge... an electric car would make this strategy nearly impossible and getting juiced and zapped it the #1 reason why batteries have a shorter life.

You can speculate on anything you'd like, and put on rosy glasses when you do so, but I deal with what's actually possible. I find it amusing that the 'next big thing' is already here and we'll all be enjoying it 'in just a few years.' I think that was said about flying cars in the 60s.

I sold a CNG Civic once and it was a pretty cool car... not a lot of refilling stations in California but very nice technology. Only downside was limited range and trunk space but it drove like a normal Civic.

paliknight

what about a solar car? maybe they can get the car to convert solar energy into mechanical energy or something? and when there is no sunlight, the car runs normal. it can be controlled by a switch or something.

JeffNY

CL6,

I have pointed to numerous links on battery storage, current and future, that show an electric car is not only viable but cost a lot less to run and maintain. Again, I encourage you you to ACTUALLY READ some of the links above. But if you want to keep firing off wrong comments about battery life, cost and safety, and put your head in the sand, be my quest.

The Tesla is an extremely limited production run car. But it PROVES electric cars work. With production runs of several hundred thousand or millions watch the cost go way down.

So the Tesla can go 220 miles on a charge. So what? That's almost as far as you can go on a tank of gas.....for 1/7th the cost! So you need to plug in your car (in your home garage) instead of stopping at a gas station for gas. Again, so what???

No one is talking about "flying cars". Just getting battery technology we know works into mass production to get the cost down so we can get them into mass production cars. As I mentioned above, I have owned and used electric forklifts for 15 years. And they use lead-acid batteries! These are 4000 lbs machines that run 8+ hours a day 5 and 6 days week for YEARS with no maintenance. Not one of my guys EVER got "electrocuted" (I did almost have a guy die from using a propane lift truck in a confined space for too long from the exhaust though...).

Any one who says electric vehicles are a pipe dream just dosen't know what they are talking about.

Oh, and the current battery pack in the Tesla should last 100,000 miles. Next gen will be even longer. But if you want to keep paying $3000 or $4000 a year for guess, be my quest.

CL6

Sorry this is off topic...

Firstly, in a $100,000.00 car you're not driving anywhere for "1/7th" the cost of buying gas because you're driving a $100,000.00 car! Secondly, the range limitations for electric cars have always been in the 100-220 miles. For most people, this is not going to work. Sure, if you commute to the office and home only but what about trips with the family? What about vacations? Then you need one car for commuting and one car for longer driving. Now we need to own TWO cars. So that's not going to work. People want the same convenience as their current vehicles which is why hybrids sell. You can try and impose penalties or offer incentives to force the market to change itself but that is not what we are discussing. Also you have infrastructure issues. Where do I recharge my electric car if I don't have a garage or what if I visit my buddy and he doesn't have a "recharging station"? Another issue.

Having a $100,000.00 electric car doesn't PROVE anything except, with enough money, some people will buy them. With enough money, you could buy a hydrogen-powered car but this hardly PROVES anything.

PROOF is when electric cars are sold alongside gasoline, hybrid, and diesel vehicles, they are sold without artifical Government subsidies (which distorts the marketplace), and they sell in fairly decent numbers. Until these things happen you can quote all the articles you want but, suffice it to say, if it could happen it would happen... sorta like flying cars that never happened.

As I said... to the best of my knowledge no major company anywhere in the world is currently offering an electric car... that says more than anything else.

Until the rubber meets the road and electric cars are driving around everything you say is pure speculation.

Dr.P

O yeah definitely CNG; LPG is heavy & stays on the ground - potentially dangerous if it leaks etc.; CNG evaporates - it's what we get at home thru out natural gas lines. Only if they could make a inexpensive kit to fit a fuel injected vehicle that'd be sweet. That way I'd get to ride my massively sized TL & enjoy it too!

JeffNY

1/7th the cost was referring to the cost of the energy, gas vs. electric. But you know that. What will you say when you can tank up an electric powered Accord for $8 bucks when a gas powered Accord needs $60 bucks worth of gas to do the same thing?

>>but what about trips with the family? What about vacations?<<

Have you looked at the GM Volt? It has a generator (gas, hydrogen, whatever you want to put in there) that kicks in to give you a 400 mile range using 6 or 7 gallons of gas. The car gets 50 MPG when the generator kicks in. Not to shabby. Plus when you get to Uncle Billys house you can plug in there also. So that takes care of argument #2.

>>to the best of my knowledge no major company anywhere in the world is currently offering an electric car<<

There was never a company building an internal combustion engine powered car (or airplane) until about 100 years ago either. So what? There were no iPods until Apple started making them a couple years ago. So what? What's the point?

But the fact is there really was no need for an electric car. Until now. Gas WAS cheap. But it's not now and most likely never will be again as China and India continue to add millions of cars a year to the planet. Plus in the past the battery technology was not where it needed to be to justify the switch. Today we DO have the battery technology and once the switch is made the savings are immense. Not to mention the reduction in pollution and savings on maintenance, or not having to buy oil from around the world or go to war for it. I'd rather see us spend billions on solar cells at home here, than send it to Saudi Arabia or Venezuela. But hey, you can feel different.

But Ok, lets assume I and GM and Toyota and Nissan (the biggest auto makers in the world) are all wrong. We are just not seeing what you see. Enlighten us with your solution? Ride bus and everybody buys a Civic? Is that YOUR solution? If it is what do we do in 50 or 60 years when we run out of oil? Tell us your solution.....I would LOVE to hear it.

JeffNY

Oh, I forgot to mention, the GM Volt does not need the "recharging station" you are so concerned about. It can be recharged in 6.5 hours using a 110 volt (standard home) outlet, or about 3 hours if you have a 220 volt supply. OR you can stop and put another 6 or 7 gallons more in the car and burn gas at 50 MPG if you can't park the car for a few hours. It's a non-issue. But, again, if you had done some reading first you'd have known that.

There is no reason any other electric car from Toyota or Honda or whoever will also not be able to charge on standard 110 volt power available almost everywhere we drive a car. It makes sence for car builders to build them that way.

JeffNY

CL6, I don't think these guys are building all these batteries for bycycles or flashlights....I think they know something you don't. These are some of the biggest industrial companies in the world (with incredible science and engineering talent) betting on this technology....

EC, Nissan to build hybrid car battery plant
http://www.cs.com.cn/english/com/200...20_1463983.htm
"The ultimate solution for sustainable mobility lies in zero-emission vehicles," Nissan Executive Vice-President Carlos Tavares said at a press conference in Tokyo.
"Electric cars represent one clear strategic direction," said Tavares.(China Daily)

Toyota to build new battery plant
http://sg.biz.yahoo.com/080523/1/4gppp.html
Toyota Motor Corp., seeking to stay in pole position in the fuel efficient car race, unveiled plans Friday to build a new factory producing batteries for eco-friendly vehicles.

CL6

Ah ha the truth comes out about the Chevy Volt!

"OR you can stop and put another 6 or 7 gallons more in the car and burn gas at 50 MPG if you can't park the car for a few hours."

It's a HYBRID! Not a pure electric car. Only reinforces earlier statements about pure electric cars. Thank you.

If I may quote this from Wired Magazine:

"Posawatz said the Volt's lithium-ion batteries can store about the same amount of power (16 kilowatt-hours) and provide nearly the same vehicle range (40 miles or more) as the EV1's lead-acid batteries."

"GM has not stated a target price for the Volt, but the lithium-ion batteries alone would cost upward of $10,000 today, Posawatz said."

Tony Posawatz is GM's vehicle line director.

Again... a plug-in hybrid is something that could happen on a mass production scale but not a pure electric car... too expensive, too limited, etc.

Studies have been done that, pound for pound, show that gasoline is still the most efficient medium for storing energy. That is because for an electric car, it takes energy to generate energy (in the form of coal most often in the U.S.) not to mention the loss of energy from the powerplant to your home into your car (until superconductive powerlines become available) not to mention the input energy needed to create and dispose of said batteries.

And as far as the Prius goes, a lifetime Toyota insider who recently defected to Chrysler I think said that the Japanese Government significantly underwrote the bills to develop the Prius and its batteries so who knows how much gasoline that would have bought (probably a lot). If the Government underwrote that much money for the average Joe we'd all be living in big houses with Mercedes-Benzes in our driveways.

Like I said, buying a Honda Civic and taking the bus is the best way to conserve fuel and save money, even if its not as sexy as a pure electric car.

And as I've said three times now... where is an electric car being mass produced anywhere in the world? Again, it's like the flying cars we were all supposed to be enjoying by now.

And, to join this to a discussion about a hybrid TL... Honda is a smart company, and when I was with them there were rumors about the 2005 RL being a hybrid but the Accord hybrid showed that a V6 paired with an electric motor wouldn't sell... which is why that model was dropped rather quickly after selling hardly any copies.

JeffNY

I was not talking about pure electric car. If you read correctly, I said "I think GM has the concept right with the Volt, electric drive, batteries and small emergency generator for when you use all your battery power".

But for 90% of most peoples daily driving "pure electric" is fine (especially as storage capacity improves over time). I was address your concerns about extended range.

>>Studies have been done that, pound for pound, show that gasoline is still the most efficient medium for storing energy<<

Site them. And you don't "store" energy in gasoline. You drill for it, refine it and burn it. Tell me how you PUT energy INTO gasoline? geezzzz

>>not to mention the loss of energy from the powerplant to your home<<

Cars can be charged off-peek hours. There is enough capacity. Or you can use solar panels or wind.

>>not to mention the input energy needed to create and dispose of said batteries.<<

Where are you getting this from? Batteries, as someone pointed out above, are recycled.

>>a lifetime Toyota insider who recently defected to Chrysler I think said that the Japanese Government significantly underwrote the bills to develop the Prius<<

Can you site a web page to confirm this? But even if its true so what. Oil companies get tax credits and corn growers get subsides. It does not change the fact these new batteries work.

What is this "flying car" you keep referring to? Again, no here is talking about flying cars....

As to the battery cost, that will come down rapidly as companies like GM, Toyota and Nissan mass produce them. Just like costs of personal computers and hundreds of other things have dropped to commodity levels as we mass produce them. I will bet you right now the cost to store 1kWh in a battery will be LESS than it is today in 12, 24 and 36 months from now.

But hey, you can think what you want. Why don't you call up the heads of Toyota and Nissan and GM and tell them they are wasting hundreds of millions of dollars investing in battery plants

Oh, and for some more fun take the battery out of your car, cell phone and notebook computer and see how well they work. Batteries are just a stupid pipe dream that don't really work - and can never work, just like the electric car

JeffNY

You think burning gasoline in an internal combustion engine is efficient?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine

Then scroll down to "Engine Efficiency". As I said above they are NOT efficient.

"Most steel engines have a thermodynamic limit of at most 37%. Even when aided with turbochargers and stock efficiency aids most engines retain an average efficiency of about 20%"

That means, if I understand it correctly (and I think I do), only about 20% of a gallon of gas is actually converted to kinetic usable energy to move a car. Most of the heat energy is wasted. Not too efficient in my book.

Think of it this way, of the $4.00 a gallon you pay for gasoline $3.20 is wasted as thermal energy. hehe

09TSX

JeffNY...If what you are saying is true, that is where ENGINEERS need to improve in the short term until another source of energy could be found to efficiently power our vehicles. Having cars that would be more efficient in the short term would allow us to consume less oil and hopefully, that would curb the supply/demand problem we are currently facing.