'09 gets brakes!
08-14-2008, 03:40 PM
#41
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08 TL-S 6MT: Braking, 700 mph: 163 ft
08 G35 6MT: Braking, 700 mph: 160 ft
08 IS350 6AT: Braking, 700 mph: 167 ft
08 335i 6MT: Braking, 700 mph: 157 ft
08 Passat 6AT: Braking, 700 mph: 180 ft
04 TL 6MT: Braking, 700 mph: 189 ft
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...type_s_feature
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...a_tl_road_test
Brembo is a marketing hype? Look at the numbers and see for yourself. 04 TL: 189ft, 08 TL-S: 163ft.
08 G35 6MT: Braking, 700 mph: 160 ft
08 IS350 6AT: Braking, 700 mph: 167 ft
08 335i 6MT: Braking, 700 mph: 157 ft
08 Passat 6AT: Braking, 700 mph: 180 ft
04 TL 6MT: Braking, 700 mph: 189 ft
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...type_s_feature
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...a_tl_road_test
Brembo is a marketing hype? Look at the numbers and see for yourself. 04 TL: 189ft, 08 TL-S: 163ft.
08-14-2008, 03:46 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by Legend2TL
Damn, editing has become more difficult.
F1 brake rotors are typically 10.8" in diameter x 1.1" made from carbon/carbon composite
F1 brake rotors are typically 10.8" in diameter x 1.1" made from carbon/carbon composite
Do Acura TLs uses carbon on carbon brakes?
Nope, but F1 cars do.
Do Acura TLs weigh 1,334 pounds - INCLUDING THE DRIVER AND A FULL TANK OF FUEL?
Nope, but F1 cars do.
Do Acura TLs use force fed, impeller driven rotor cooling aids?
Nope, but F1 cars do.
Do Acura TL cars only have to travel less than 200 miles before requiring a complete brake system replacement?
Nope, but F1 cars do.
Your argument is baseless because it compares apples to oranges. As such, it is utterly devoid of logic and good sense.
THIS TOPIC DEALS WITH 3,330 pound and above (PLUS DRIVER) street cars.
08-14-2008, 03:53 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by Legend2TL
Actually what's really hard to comprehend is how you rationalize logic and the laws of physics 
If you knew anything about vehicles and deceleration, you would understand that brakes are a system. With various dimensions, masses, forces, and materials a braking system turns mechanical kinetic energy into thermal (and sometimes electrical as in a hybrid/electric vehicle). The proper integration of these various components (master cylinder, brake pedal, rotors, porpotiional valve, calipers, pads, fluid, booster....) all work together as a system. You (as always) seem hung up on the brake rotor as being the definitive measurement for goodness of quality in a vehicle braking system.
If again you really understood brakes you would look at a F1 cars braking system which has no equal in cars. And yes their <12" carbon/carbon rotors and pads provide 5G+ deceleration. Try to comprehend and learn something.
http://www.f1technical.net/articles/2
In terms of the TL, it's performance has already been documented in previous threads by established automotive media sources.
If you knew anything about vehicles and deceleration, you would understand that brakes are a system. With various dimensions, masses, forces, and materials a braking system turns mechanical kinetic energy into thermal (and sometimes electrical as in a hybrid/electric vehicle). The proper integration of these various components (master cylinder, brake pedal, rotors, porpotiional valve, calipers, pads, fluid, booster....) all work together as a system. You (as always) seem hung up on the brake rotor as being the definitive measurement for goodness of quality in a vehicle braking system.
If again you really understood brakes you would look at a F1 cars braking system which has no equal in cars. And yes their <12" carbon/carbon rotors and pads provide 5G+ deceleration. Try to comprehend and learn something.
http://www.f1technical.net/articles/2
In terms of the TL, it's performance has already been documented in previous threads by established automotive media sources.
Larger rotors have more mass (for greater energy dissipation) as well as a longer brake torque arm (for greater stopping power at any and all wheel speeds).
By the way, I have a Bachelor's Degree in mechanical engineering....Do you?
Your comparison to F1 brakes is laughable:
Do Acura TLs uses carbon on carbon brakes?
Nope, but F1 cars do.
Do Acura TLs weigh 1,334 pounds - INCLUDING THE DRIVER AND A FULL TANK OF FUEL?
Nope, but F1 cars do.
Do Acura TLs use force fed, impeller driven rotor cooling aids?
Nope, but F1 cars do.
Do Acura TL cars only have to travel less than 200 miles before requiring a complete brake system replacement?
Nope, but F1 cars do.
Your argument is baseless because it compares apples to oranges. As such, it is utterly devoid of logic and good sense.
THIS TOPIC DEALS WITH 3,330 pound and above (PLUS DRIVER) street cars.
[/QUOTE]
08-14-2008, 04:03 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by Legend2TL
Actually what's really hard to comprehend is how you rationalize logic and the laws of physics...
http://www.caranddriver.com/content/...op_vehicle.pdf
Large rotors (relative to vehicle weight) are ESSENTIAL in real high performance braking systems and EVERY modern, high performance street car is so equipped.
The '07 - '08 Acura TL Type S stood out like a sore thumb with its dinky little rotors.
I drive a 2007 TL-S every day of my life and have for the past 13 months. I know FROM FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE that the brakes are laughable my modern, performance STREET car standards.
Have you ever even sat in one?
08-14-2008, 04:14 PM
#46
AZ Community Team
Don't take it personally but you don't, a former German colleague worked for Audi and we had a many conversations involving vehicle design and development. Your irrational views would not fit the ever compromising world of automobile engineering which involve defining requirements and designing/developing systems to fufill those requirements.
Originally Posted by harddrivin1le
I rationalize it the way BMW, Porsche, GM (Corvette), Ferrari and EVERY high performance street car manufacturer rationalizes it.
http://www.caranddriver.com/content/...op_vehicle.pdf
Large rotors (relative to vehicle weight) are ESSENTIAL in real high performance braking systems and EVERY modern, high performance street car is so equipped.
The '07 - '08 Acura TL Type S stood out like a sore thumb with its dinky little rotors.
I drive a 2007 TL-S every day of my life and have for the past 13 months. I know FROM FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE that the brakes are laughable my modern, performance STREET car standards.
Have you ever even sat in one?
http://www.caranddriver.com/content/...op_vehicle.pdf
Large rotors (relative to vehicle weight) are ESSENTIAL in real high performance braking systems and EVERY modern, high performance street car is so equipped.
The '07 - '08 Acura TL Type S stood out like a sore thumb with its dinky little rotors.
I drive a 2007 TL-S every day of my life and have for the past 13 months. I know FROM FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE that the brakes are laughable my modern, performance STREET car standards.
Have you ever even sat in one?
08-14-2008, 04:20 PM
#47
AZ Community Team
Get your facts straight, the 600Kg weight for a F1 car is for all times during a F1 event. That includes the fuel tank being empty.
Don't have a BSME, but a BSEE/MSEE/MSCS.
The F1 comparison was simple, it showed how other factors matter (in this case design and materials) in brake design wheither it's for a car, bicycle, airplane. It also proved your brake rotor size comcept as being illogical. Actually in all the things on a F1 car the brakes are actually the most common with road cars, but you truely need to understand the system as a concept of all the components.
[/QUOTE]
Don't have a BSME, but a BSEE/MSEE/MSCS.
The F1 comparison was simple, it showed how other factors matter (in this case design and materials) in brake design wheither it's for a car, bicycle, airplane. It also proved your brake rotor size comcept as being illogical. Actually in all the things on a F1 car the brakes are actually the most common with road cars, but you truely need to understand the system as a concept of all the components.
Originally Posted by harddrivin1le
The rotors are the end game in any braking system, since they much dissipate virtually all of the vehicle's kinetic energy during braking (in the form of heat).
Larger rotors have more mass (for greater energy dissipation) as well as a longer brake torque arm (for greater stopping power at any and all wheel speeds).
By the way, I have a Bachelor's Degree in mechanical engineering....Do you?
Your comparison to F1 brakes is laughable:
Do Acura TLs uses carbon on carbon brakes?
Nope, but F1 cars do.
Do Acura TLs weigh 1,334 pounds - INCLUDING THE DRIVER AND A FULL TANK OF FUEL?
Nope, but F1 cars do.
Do Acura TLs use force fed, impeller driven rotor cooling aids?
Nope, but F1 cars do.
Do Acura TL cars only have to travel less than 200 miles before requiring a complete brake system replacement?
Nope, but F1 cars do.
Your argument is baseless because it compares apples to oranges. As such, it is utterly devoid of logic and good sense.
THIS TOPIC DEALS WITH 3,330 pound and above (PLUS DRIVER) street cars.
Larger rotors have more mass (for greater energy dissipation) as well as a longer brake torque arm (for greater stopping power at any and all wheel speeds).
By the way, I have a Bachelor's Degree in mechanical engineering....Do you?
Your comparison to F1 brakes is laughable:
Do Acura TLs uses carbon on carbon brakes?
Nope, but F1 cars do.
Do Acura TLs weigh 1,334 pounds - INCLUDING THE DRIVER AND A FULL TANK OF FUEL?
Nope, but F1 cars do.
Do Acura TLs use force fed, impeller driven rotor cooling aids?
Nope, but F1 cars do.
Do Acura TL cars only have to travel less than 200 miles before requiring a complete brake system replacement?
Nope, but F1 cars do.
Your argument is baseless because it compares apples to oranges. As such, it is utterly devoid of logic and good sense.
THIS TOPIC DEALS WITH 3,330 pound and above (PLUS DRIVER) street cars.
08-14-2008, 04:20 PM
#48
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Originally Posted by Legend2TL
Don't take it personally but you don't, a former German colleague worked for Audi and we had a many conversations involving vehicle design and development. Your irrational views would not fit the ever compromising world of automobile engineering which involve defining requirements and designing/developing systems to fufill those requirements.
It would be a win-win situation for them, since those small rotors would reduce expense, unsprung weight, rotational inertia and total vehicle weight.
Yet, ALL of those manufacturers (plus Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, etc.) specify MUCH larger rotors.
Why is that?
Do you really believe that a glorified Accord that was spec'd out sometime in the 2002 time-frame represents the state-of-the-art in modern performance sedan braking?
Even Acura knows the old TL's brakes sucked. That's why they INCREASED ROTOR SIZE to 12.6" F and 13.1" R in the new TL!
08-14-2008, 04:36 PM
#49
AZ Community Team
I'll have to go over in the future to the Corvette threads and see how your logic measures up with those rational folks 
FWIW, I have ridden in my boss'es TL Type-S but never driven one. Although he is a BSME/MSME and designed the resin/binder/composite for the C4 Corvette's latteral leaf spring (which by the way is the first thing they get rid of when they race them, the C6R using coil over dampers!).
FWIW, I have ridden in my boss'es TL Type-S but never driven one. Although he is a BSME/MSME and designed the resin/binder/composite for the C4 Corvette's latteral leaf spring (which by the way is the first thing they get rid of when they race them, the C6R using coil over dampers!).
Originally Posted by harddrivin1le
If there were any truth in that then BMW, Mercedes Benz, Audi, etc. would be fitting their 3,550 pound plus, 286 HP plus performance sedans with 12.2" X .98 F rotors and SOLID 11.1" X .35" rear rotors.
It would be a win-win situation for them, since those small rotors would reduce expense, unsprung weight, rotational inertia and total vehicle weight.
Yet, ALL of those manufacturers (plus Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, etc.) specify MUCH larger rotors.
Why is that?
Do you really believe that a glorified Accord that was spec'd out sometime in the 2002 time-frame represents the state-of-the-art in modern performance sedan braking?
Even Acura knows the old TL's brakes sucked. That's why they INCREASED ROTOR SIZE to 12.6" F and 13.1" R in the new TL!
It would be a win-win situation for them, since those small rotors would reduce expense, unsprung weight, rotational inertia and total vehicle weight.
Yet, ALL of those manufacturers (plus Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, etc.) specify MUCH larger rotors.
Why is that?
Do you really believe that a glorified Accord that was spec'd out sometime in the 2002 time-frame represents the state-of-the-art in modern performance sedan braking?
Even Acura knows the old TL's brakes sucked. That's why they INCREASED ROTOR SIZE to 12.6" F and 13.1" R in the new TL!
08-14-2008, 04:44 PM
#50
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Originally Posted by Legend2TL
I'll have to go over in the future to the Corvette threads and see how your logic measures up with those rational folks.
http://www.mercedes-amg.com/index_us.html
http://www.bmwusa.com/
The "rational folks" on the Corvette site know that a Z51's brakes will put you through the windshield @ 140 MPH if you hop on them without wearing belts.
The PRIMARY reason for that is this. (Note the size and mass of the Z51's Corvette rotors, relative to its curb weight). And that 'Vette uses simple, 2 piston, sliding calipers!
http://www.caranddriver.com/content/...op_vehicle.pdf
http://www.caranddriver.com/content/...perf_0-100.pdf
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ff+page-4.html
08-14-2008, 06:23 PM
#52
Team Owner
Originally Posted by harddrivin1le
If there were any truth in that then BMW, Mercedes Benz, Audi, etc. would be fitting their 3,550 pound plus, 286 HP plus performance sedans with 12.2" X .98 F rotors and SOLID 11.1" X .35" rear rotors.
It would be a win-win situation for them, since those small rotors would reduce expense, unsprung weight, rotational inertia and total vehicle weight.
Yet, ALL of those manufacturers (plus Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, etc.) specify MUCH larger rotors.
Why is that?
Do you really believe that a glorified Accord that was spec'd out sometime in the 2002 time-frame represents the state-of-the-art in modern performance sedan braking?
Even Acura knows the old TL's brakes sucked. That's why they INCREASED ROTOR SIZE to 12.6" F and 13.1" R in the new TL!
It would be a win-win situation for them, since those small rotors would reduce expense, unsprung weight, rotational inertia and total vehicle weight.
Yet, ALL of those manufacturers (plus Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, etc.) specify MUCH larger rotors.
Why is that?
Do you really believe that a glorified Accord that was spec'd out sometime in the 2002 time-frame represents the state-of-the-art in modern performance sedan braking?
Even Acura knows the old TL's brakes sucked. That's why they INCREASED ROTOR SIZE to 12.6" F and 13.1" R in the new TL!
I was wondering how long it would take you to pull the ME degree BS. You may or may not have an education but you definately lack basic common sense.
The TL is not a sports car nor was it meant to compete with one. You are holding it to sports car standards. How hard is this to understand?
Once again, how many of us have ever, ever, ever had our brakes fade in our TLs? Screw your physics, in real life, not in your world, I have not heard of anyone complain of the brakes fading. I could give 2 shits about your Vette and it's brakes. The TL is grossly undertired compared to the Vette. I would put my TL up against any Vette in stopping from 70mph since I have comprable sized tires.
Go away and drive your mid-life crisis car and jack off to your brakes. You don't see us going to the Vette forum and talking about the road noise, stiff ride, wind noise, plastic interior, rattles, lack of space, etc. Personally, the Vette I drove didn't have enough power to make me overlook it's other shortcomings.
I enjoy the TL for what it is. I have a fast car, lightyears ahead of your Vette and I wanted the TL for what it has to offer and never have I been let down.
08-14-2008, 10:03 PM
#53
Team Owner
Originally Posted by harddrivin1le
Even Acura knows the old TL's brakes sucked. That's why they INCREASED ROTOR SIZE to 12.6" F and 13.1" R in the new TL!
Or a 3% change in rotor size from the old Brembos to the new brakes... Looks like you got all excited for nothing.
08-14-2008, 10:15 PM
#54
Senior Moderator
Okee dokee that's enough of this thread.
08-14-2008, 10:18 PM
#55
Team Owner
One more 
08-15-2008, 01:26 AM
#56
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Originally Posted by harddrivin1le
Anyone who would make that statement doesn't know what "very good" brakes are.
I have an '07 TL Type S in my garage. It's got the Brembo brakes and they're no stronger than the brakes in the '08 V6 Accord sedan I drove two weeks ago or the two, base model TLs I got as warranty repair loaners.
The whole "BREMBO" thing was almost solely a marketing tool.
your contention that 70-0mph stops are meaningless, yet "aggressive canyon runs", whatever that is, proves anything should feel rediculous even to you.
but honestly if you think the base model brakes were as good as the brembos then all the power to you...
08-15-2008, 01:33 AM
#57
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Originally Posted by I hate cars
You really aren't that smart, are you? Maybe, just maybe the brakes are bigger because the car weighs 400lbs more.
I was wondering how long it would take you to pull the ME degree BS. You may or may not have an education but you definately lack basic common sense.
The TL is not a sports car nor was it meant to compete with one. You are holding it to sports car standards. How hard is this to understand?
Once again, how many of us have ever, ever, ever had our brakes fade in our TLs? Screw your physics, in real life, not in your world, I have not heard of anyone complain of the brakes fading. I could give 2 shits about your Vette and it's brakes. The TL is grossly undertired compared to the Vette. I would put my TL up against any Vette in stopping from 70mph since I have comprable sized tires.
Go away and drive your mid-life crisis car and jack off to your brakes. You don't see us going to the Vette forum and talking about the road noise, stiff ride, wind noise, plastic interior, rattles, lack of space, etc. Personally, the Vette I drove didn't have enough power to make me overlook it's other shortcomings.
I enjoy the TL for what it is. I have a fast car, lightyears ahead of your Vette and I wanted the TL for what it has to offer and never have I been let down.
I was wondering how long it would take you to pull the ME degree BS. You may or may not have an education but you definately lack basic common sense.
The TL is not a sports car nor was it meant to compete with one. You are holding it to sports car standards. How hard is this to understand?
Once again, how many of us have ever, ever, ever had our brakes fade in our TLs? Screw your physics, in real life, not in your world, I have not heard of anyone complain of the brakes fading. I could give 2 shits about your Vette and it's brakes. The TL is grossly undertired compared to the Vette. I would put my TL up against any Vette in stopping from 70mph since I have comprable sized tires.
Go away and drive your mid-life crisis car and jack off to your brakes. You don't see us going to the Vette forum and talking about the road noise, stiff ride, wind noise, plastic interior, rattles, lack of space, etc. Personally, the Vette I drove didn't have enough power to make me overlook it's other shortcomings.
I enjoy the TL for what it is. I have a fast car, lightyears ahead of your Vette and I wanted the TL for what it has to offer and never have I been let down.
its odd that someone would dismiss a 70-0 stop comparison because of all the different variables, yet their only argument is that rotor size is everything.
08-15-2008, 12:00 PM
#58
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Exactly, and again referring back to the TL-S lap time on Willow Springs, if the brakes really suck I doubt that it could beat the other two by such a large margin. Like Id say the brakes might not be as good as others, but its far from being mediocre.
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