harddrivin1le

I just couldn't help myself.

For all of those who mocked me for pointing out the mediocre brakes of the 3rd gen TL:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=130526

"Never known for great brakes, this Acura TL has been upgraded to a far more competitive level. The front calipers are now dual-piston units that grab 12.6-inch rotors, which is one more piston and 21 percent more swept area than before. Strangely enough, the rear rotors are even bigger at 13.1 inches, although they stick with single-piston calipers. Pedal feel is quite good and fade proved minimal during our aggressive canyon runs."



A couple of panic stops on cold-to-warm brakes from modest speeds (e.g. 70 MPH) in a magazine (e.g. ROAD AND TRACK) say little about brakes, since virtually any modern car can lock its brakes under those conditions. Such stops say much more about tire grip and ABS algorithms.

Anyway, to Acura for addressing this issue.

I'm going to miss my TL-S in some ways. Dynamically it was disappointing in many ways, but it's still a nice car overall.

My new Corvette won't be as comfortable or as reliable.

01tl4tl

I installed dual piston calipers from the old Legend cars on my Gen2 along with good rotors pads and tires. Its a stopping machine- on a dime and gives 8 cents change

Gen3 weigh more, and everyone knows they needed better brakes- hopefully the pads will last more than 20 k miles! and the rotors dont warp~

01tl4tl

I wonder if the larger rear has to do with the stabilty control computer, and its desire to apply a brake to straighten the car out- or tighten its turning abilty

neuronbob

I think they took after the RL. Have you seen the huge brakes on an RL? Necessary to stop nearly 2 tons of bulk. And believe me, they work with no muss, no fuss on the RL. I expect the same on the new TL.

Agree, props to Acura for addressing the TL brake deficit.

Edward'TLS

It's a good thing that the rear brake rotors are no longer tiny.

harddrivin1le

The RL's fronts are 12.6" (probably the very same rotor as the new TL's), but the RL's rears are only 12.2".

So the new TL has larger rear rotors than the RL and the same front rotors!


The TL's new rotors simply make the car "competitive" in the segment.

Check out the rotors on this 528 Xi. (The more powerful models use even larger rotors.)

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

harddrivin1le

The RL's fronts are 12.6" (probably the very same rotor as the new TL's), but the RL's rears are only 12.2".

So the new TL has larger rear rotors than the RL and the same front rotors!


The TL's new rotors simply make the car "competitive" in the segment.

Check out the rotors on this 528 Xi. (The more powerful models use even larger rotors.)

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

harddrivin1le

The RL's fronts are 12.6" (likely the very same rotor as the new TL's), but the RL's rears are only 12.2".

So the new TL has larger rear rotors than the RL and the same front rotors!


The TL's new rotors simply make the car "competitive" in the segment.

Check out the rotors on this 528 Xi. (The more powerful models use even larger rotors.)

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

harddrivin1le

The RL's fronts are 12.6" (likely the very same rotor as the new TL's), but the RL's rears are only 12.2".

So the new TL has larger rear rotors than the RL and the same front rotors!


The TL's new rotors simply make the car "competitive" in the segment.

Check out the rotors on this 528 Xi. (The more powerful models use even larger rotors.)

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

BHump

Holy Posts, Batman!

It is nice to see the new impressive rear brakes and rotors, though. I guess that's a lot of ass to stop, huh?

harddrivin1le

The front drive version of the new TL weighs about the same as an '07-'08 TL-S automatic, while the SH AWD version of the new TL weighs about the same as the RL.

Anyway you look at it, the new TL has the most powerful brakes of any Acura sedan ever built.

Now they need a 6 or 7 speed DSG transmission....

I consider the brakes in my '07 TL-S automatic to be the single weakest part of the car.

08TYPE_S

It is odd that the rear brakes are larger than the front. It should be the other way around. After all, most vehicles are heavier upfront.

NTP66

It's more "wrong" than it is "odd", in my opinion. Obviously, it's better to have larger rotors both front and back, but the only reason you'd put larger rotors in the rear is to either change it to a rear brake bias, which doesn't really make sense for this car, or to resolve an issue that I was unaware of - poor heat dissipation in the rear rotors. The front brakes are *always* going to do more work (gotta love physics!).

Either way, why does the 4G need better brakes when it's got a brick wall for a front end?

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea, that’s my concern too, why are the rear brakes bigger than the front? Is it because the front is dual-piston, which provides better stopping power than the single-piston setup? Or is It possible that the car has a rear bias weight distribution? Even so, when you slow down, weight transfers to the front…so..I don’t know…can anyone explain?

kobi2002

I'm getting alot of ?????? with honda now a days

Legend2TL

Wonder if Acura did this to get harddrivin1le to stop introducing brake size threads into Acurazine every two week so the moderators can have a break (pun intended)?

sixsixfour

LOL

erick3

dude..i hate that ass...

harddrivin1le

Most people do have problems accepting the truth, so I guess you must be included under the "most people" umbrella.

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

Those are actually very small front brakes, especially considering how the TL has grown in size and weight, to RL size proportions. They are much smaller G37 sedan and IS 350 have much larger brakes, G37 has optional 14.2 inch brakes, the IS 350 has 13.5 inch brakes.

The Tl is larger than a BMW 550 which has 13.7 up front and 13.6 in the rear.

I can't help but think Acura put more thought into the Navigation system and not the real important items, engine/brakes/transmission.

12.6 inch brakes behind those thin spoke 19" wheels screams I need bigger brakes

Flavour

the regular tl brakes were crappy, which is what the article is comparing to, but the brembos were very good.

it will be interesting to see what the numbers are stopping the boat they call the 4th gen.

harddrivin1le

Anyone who would make that statement doesn't know what "very good" brakes are.

I have an '07 TL Type S in my garage. It's got the Brembo brakes and they're no stronger than the brakes in the '08 V6 Accord sedan I drove two weeks ago or the two, base model TLs I got as warranty repair loaners.

The whole "BREMBO" thing was almost solely a marketing tool.

harddrivin1le

You're right.

A 550 is a much faster car than the new TL, though, so it needs larger rotors. Both cars ('09 TL SH AWD and 550i) are virtually identical in weight (~ 2 tons).

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

I would call the '09 TL's brakes "sufficient."

I would call the brakes on my 2007 TL Type S "ridiculous marketing hype."

I hate cars

Who cares. It's not a performance car in any way. The TL will stop with the best of them for a few hard stops. That is all you will ever need on the street. Sure, they might fade on the roadcourse but if that's the case, you bought the wrong car. It's a freaking family sedan.


Hell, my other car has 10.5" rotors, drums on the rear, 3X the hp and I've never had a problem with fade. Drive the car as intended and you will have no problems with the brakes.

The TL is a great low speed handling and stopping car. Below 100mph it's great. As speeds go up, it loses it's composure quickly. It's not a Ferrari, it's a luxury sedan. The brakes are all 99.99% of drivers could ever want. Bigger brakes won't reduce stopping distances in 99% of driving situations. It's a matter of traction until the brakes start to fade and I would guess most people on this forum have never had their brakes fade.

I hate cars

And the 550 has 400+lbs on the TL.

To me, 19" rims mean you're more into looks than performance.

Navigation is more important to me than upgrading my brakes since my TL has demostrated in real life on a course it outstops the IS350 with bigger brakes easily.

Quit comparing your mag specs. It's like saying one car sucks because it only has 900hp when the other has 1,000. Neither one is going to hook on the street so what's the point? Most will never get into brake fade so why have bigger brakes?

Feel free to start a poll as to how many on here have ever had the brakes fade.

It's like you guys are in a magazine specs pissing contest just for the bragging rights of who has bigger brakes when in reality you will never use them to their potential.

I hate cars

The only thing I've agreed with so far.

flydog

^ This idiot was supposed to be banned if he posted any more threads about brakes. He was warned.

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

The 550 does not have 400lbs on the TL. Its right under 4000 lbs. Clearly Acura thinks 19" wheels means performance, as they are with Michelin PS2s, some of the best if not best street tire around.

If call people out for magazine racing but you do the same thing comparing the TL to the IS 350 for one race.

No one said the brakes suck. WHat I am saying is they are not HUGE like the OP is stating.

Bigger brakes help fight fade and help somewhat with shorter stopping distances. Clearly everyone today goes for bigger brakes, from OEM to aftermarket. Of course pads are where you begin.

Even the Hyundai Genesis has over 13" size brakes.

harddrivin1le

That isn't true.

The 2009 TL SH AWD and the BMW 550 both weigh ~ 3,950 pounds.

Legend2TL

One would have thought. In the original post he "claims" he still owns his TL Type-S, where in previous posting he claims he traded it for a new Vette?

Legend2TL

My bad, tried to edit my post but the Acurazine server is very slow this morning.

Here's my edited version

One would have thought that!

Overall the brakes are bigger but the weight has unfortunately gone up as well for the 4G (common syndrome for most vehicles). Curious what the results are for in actual road tests. The 3G TL 6MT with summer tires did 115 ft with no detected fade in three consectuive 60-0 stops. A 4G M3 does it in 100 ft.

Curious if the Brembo will return on the Type-S in 2010, I had a 2008 TL 5AT as a loaner a couple weeks ago (power steering hose recall) and I prefer the Brembo setup to the single piston front calipers.

juruki

iTrader: (2)

Another thread about brakes started by HardDrivin1le??? Didnt you get a Z06? Go away already man. Didnt you cry about this topic a million times here? You always use the same arguments and always get the same replies.
Go cry and whine to the Corvette forums. GTFO

I hate cars

19" rims kill performance. There are 2 reasons for big rims. One is to clear big brakes. Two is to one up the competition, solely for looks. Since you don't need 19" rims to clear 12" brakes, that leaves us with option 2.

Bigger brakes only help fight fade. Until fade sets in they do nothing for stopping distances.

Acura has to use bigger brakes because the competition is using bigger brakes whether they need to or not and Acura can't be left in the dust even if there is no functional advantage because people like yourself and harddrivin jack off to magazine specs.

How do you figure I magazine race when I've run the IS350 in real life and I could've rear ended it multiple times through the corners. Even though he had the bigger brakes and sport suspension I was able to go much deeper into corners before braking. Not once did I run into brake fade with my base AT brakes.

The one time I did run into fade was when my girlfriend got into a wreck and I was trying to get across town which consisited of a highway with redlights so I would floor it up to 100+mph, slam on brakes for a redlight and back to 100+mph again over and over. This isn't anything most people will ever experience. They never faded completely but were close to total failure. The conclusion: Unless you drive like a total idiot on the street like I did that day you will never had a problem with the base brakes. On the roadcourse they will probably let you down.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Exactly, every car is designed with different purposes. The TL is simply a 4dr sedan with a bit of performance, luxury yet being affordable and reliable. 99%+ owners do not autocross their TL’s, or even drive hard. If you want something for that purpose, Honda will tell you that they offer Type R models and those brakes will last for many laps (refer to Best Motoring).

ACCURATEin

SHAWD versions will features brake cooling ducts. Pretty neat!

harddrivin1le

I SPECIAL ORDERED a Corvette. You can do that with American cars. I expect delivery in 6 - 9 weeks.

I'm driving my trade ('07 TL-S) in the meantime.

Is that concept too difficult for you to comprehend?

Back to brakes...The '04 - '08 TL brakes (Brembo and standard) were significantly smaller than those used on the little, 3,300 VW Passat in the link below and were, in fact, were about the same size as the Malibu. At 3,503 pounds, the Malibu is 170 lighter my my TL-S automatic.

As you can see, the REAL performance cars have rotors that are in a whole different league.

http://www.caranddriver.com/content/...op_vehicle.pdf

harddrivin1le

'07 - '08 Brembo TL Type S:

Rotors: Ventilated 12.2" X .98" F; Solid 11.1" X .35" rear

Weight: Automatic: 3,674 pounds; Manual: 3,559 pounds


'07 - '08 standard TL:

Rotors: Ventilated 11.8" X 1.1" F; Solid 11.1 X .35" rear

Weight: Automatic: 3,623 pounds (without Nav), 3,633 pounds (with Nav)

The Brembo's front rotors were actually THINNER than the standard TL's front rotors and therefore weighed about the same. Rear rotors were identical. "Brembo" in that application was more about MARKETING than anything else.


Compare those figures to those of these more modern cars and you'll see that the TL's brakes/vehicle weight combo (standard and Brembo) were the most similar to the Chevy Malibu in terms of rotor size. The rotors of the PERFORMANCE CARS in that test were much, much larger.

http://www.caranddriver.com/content/...op_vehicle.pdf

I hate cars

Just repeat that last line over and over until you get it. You're finally onto something. The TL is a nice luxury sedan, not a sports car.

Different cars for different needs. I drove a new C6 Vette with the performance suspension all last weekend and I can honestly say I don't like it. It corners ok and stops ok but there just isn't enough power to overcome it's other shortcomings.....the areas that the TL excels in. And don't talk about real performance cars with your stock Vette. If we ran into each other on the street you would think you lift the e-brake on.

Legend2TL

Actually what's really hard to comprehend is how you rationalize logic and the laws of physics

If you knew anything about vehicles and deceleration, you would understand that brakes are a system. With various dimensions, masses, forces, and materials a braking system turns mechanical kinetic energy into thermal (and sometimes electrical as in a hybrid/electric vehicle). The proper integration of these various components (master cylinder, brake pedal, rotors, porpotiional valve, calipers, pads, fluid, booster....) all work together as a system. You (as always) seem hung up on the brake rotor as being the definitive measurement for goodness of quality in a vehicle braking system.


If again you really understood brakes you would look at a F1 cars braking system which has no equal in cars. And yes their <12" carbon/carbon rotors and pads provide 5G+ deceleration. Try to comprehend and learn something.

http://www.f1technical.net/articles/2

In terms of the TL, it's performance has already been documented in previous threads by established automotive media sources.

Legend2TL

Damn, editing has become more difficult.

F1 brake rotors are typically 10.8" in diameter x 1.1" made from carbon/carbon composite