DAYTA

I'm not sure where to post this, so I'll just do it here...

I picked up my '06 6MT/Navi TSX about 2 weeks ago, and I think I've gotten a pretty good grasp on basic shifting/braking techniques.

As a result, I've been reading up on rev-matching/double clutching/hee-toeing, and these are skills I'd like to add to my repetoire (in order to minimize clutch wear as a newbie). I figured I'd start with rev-matching my downshifts. Here is my procedure:

1) clutch down
2) downshift
3) blip throttle up 1-2k (depending on what gear I'm downshifting to/from)
4) clutch down

This seems simple enough, except that I just can't seem to blip the right amount. Sometimes, I'll tap the throttle too hard and overrev the engine to like 4.5-5k (instead of 3-3.5k) and have the car lurch forward a little bit, or I'll underrev and cause engine braking.

I realize that because I'm a newbie to this technique, it will take time to master. However, I can't help but think that the DBW system/lack of throttle response is contributing to my frustration. With the lack of throttle response, I have no way to gauge exactly how much pressure to apply to the throttle in order to reach the correct RPMs. Has anyone else encountered this problem?


Also, does anyone know how much dammage I do to the engine/tranny if I overrev with the clutch disengaged by accident?

wj4

you just have to practice more and get a better understanding of the gearing ratio.
i dont have a tsx, but in teh 2 test drives i went on, i was able to rev match when hooking a right turn and accelerated right after.
imo its in your head, sometimes you try to do it too fast and end up gassing too much before going into the lower gear. it took me about a month of practicing off and on to feel comfortable with it.

Viper33182

this is my 2nd car w/ a manual, and while it's taking some time to get used to (since the clutch is very different than my previous car, an Audi) i've got it pretty much down...i've had my car for about a week now (~350mi.) and haven't really had much of a problem...if this is your first manual car, it may take some practice, but you should pick it up pretty quickly...and as for damage to the engine or tranny, the Acura clutch seems pretty forgiving...I wouldn't worry too much about damaging the car

ninjamyst

Agree with OP. The DBW is screwing both my upshifts and downshifts. And creeping in congested traffic is horrible with this car. But I am still loving the MT. I am a newbie too and it just takes practice.

Has anyone notice that on the first startup of the day, the rpm is idling at like 1500-2000rpm instead of <1000rpm? Weird....

afici0nad0

just takes time, you'll be fine.

referring to your procedure, steps 2 and 3 would pretty much be done at the same time.

afici0nad0

it's just warming up. it's all good...

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

When the engine cold starts, the idle rpm is higher in order to achieve proper operating temperatures quicker.

And as for the DBW throttle, it just takes some practice. You have to be much more gentle and smooth with the DBW throttle than with a traditional cable throttle because the electronics are that much more precise than the traditional cable linked throttle setup.

DAYTA

Thanks for the vote of confidence.


Does anyone have a break-down of RPMs at particular speeds and gears?

For example, going 40MPH in 4th gear @ 2k, what would the equivalent RPMs be at 40MPH in 3rd gear?

If anyone has a list of matching RPMs to gears/speed, I'd appreciate it (and so would my new baby, instead of finding out by experimenting on her) as it would give me precise numbers to practice hitting. Thanks guys!

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Haha...it's not quite so simple to try to get the exact RPM, but it really is a trial by error process. You'll get the hang of it with time and it'll improve your driving experience a great deal.

sauceman

Usually, coming down from any cruising speed, if you compress down to 2000rpm then downshift, you'll need to bring the rpms back up by around 450-500rpms for most all gears except 2-1.

Black_6spd

There are a bunch of gear ratio calculators online. Do a search and it's easy to find. I'm too lazy to provide a link.

Although I know what my RPM-to-MPH ratio is on my car, I don't think it will help you.

SoCaliTrojan

Use your tachometer. Guestimate what RPM your engine will be at the lower rpm's. Lately I've only been downshifting if there's enough space in front of me, so I don't hit the gas pedal hard. I'll just push it at an even speed until I get the RPM's just right, then I'll down shift. (double clutching). After you do that for a while, you'll have a feel for how to hit the gas pedal. It's just hard in the beginning when you don't know how much rpm's you need.

It's hard for me to explain how I guestimate the rpm's. I take into account the current gear and if I've maintained my speed or slowed down too much. I then take a quick glance at the tachometer, and then I estimate where the rpm should be (I don't have a tach in front of me, but i'd guess about 2k rpm's above the tach's current rpm). Since the TSX's rev's drop really fast, I make sure I either shift really fast, or I give extra rpm's so that by the time the shift is complete, the rpm has fallen exactly where I wanted it.

I do it all the time in my TSX...so much, in fact, that I do it without thinking much. It's more of an instinct/feeling than calculations...just get out there and practice

mg7726

you just need practice. i have no problems heel/toe on my friend's TL (ok it's not a TSX) or the dbw. acura TSX/TL gear boxes are so buttery smooth it's all in the wrist/finger action! btw, your step 4 should be clutch up

tip: never never ever heel/toe down to 1st gear.

clearlycanadian

I'm in the same situation as DAYTA. I literally just picked up my baby today (black/black 6MT). It's my first manual and I am doing everything from stalling to squealing the tires (oops). LOL its fun to learn as long as no damage is taking place. I'm sure in a month it'll be second nature. Currently my bad habit is riding the clutch too much but I don't like it when it over or under revs.

DAYTA

Well, I did a little more practice on my rev matching yesterday. I think I'm getting a little better at it, but I'm still far from consistent (like 3-4 out of 10). Also, I threw in a little heel-toeing for the hell of it. I managed to do it a few times, but I think my foot is too narrow to do it efficiently...

I think what also contributes to my slight difficulty in picking up this technique are my work shoes. Most of my dress shoes have a fairly thick sole (no, I'm not short @ 6'0"), so I lose a bit of tactile connection to the throttle. As a result, I often have to guess the intensity of my blips when rev matching my downshifts. I'm thinking about pickin up some driving shoes with extremely thin soles for some "spirited" weekend driving . Anyone have any recommendations?



Ha, your description is funny because I was considering naming my ride "Butters"...

dom

Was step 4 supposed to say clutch up?

curls

I'd assume so.

As for the DBW causing the problems, I don't think that's it. I think its just a matter of practice-makes-perfect and nothing more.

Coming from a cable clutch and cable throttle 1991 Integra, to the hydraulic clutch and DBW throttle TSX, was a BIG change and took a bit of getting used to. I've been driving manuals for 7 years and even then, you still have to partually re-learn, as every car is different!

DAYTA

Yeah, sorry about that...I meant to say clutch up. But you guys know what I meant .

dom

I havn't bothered rev matching at all since I got the MT. I guess I'm just lazy.

helraiser

neither have i. i figure i'll be in the market for a new car in about 5 years anyway - or 2 if the 2008 TSX really is rad. the clutch'll be someone else's problem

junktionfet

The drive by wire throttle doesn't respond as instantly as a cable throttle, so I have found that I can get smoother shifts by depressing the accelerator a little before I would in a normal car.

This is fundamentally wrong of course, and your brain will keep reverting to the "correct" way of shifting a car--but if you can get used to it, the TSX will reward you with shifts that make the Honda automatic look like a piece of junk.

Another thing that makes blipping and "rev-matching" a challenge is that fact that the drive-by-wire throttle is adaptive. The relationship between pedal position and throttle position can change--thus making the car even more counter-intuitive. Again, this takes a lot of practice to get it right.

You'll get it, this car is just especially hard to learn. Once you learn it, it's actually a pretty pleasant driving experience. I've started to smile a bit driving mine lately.

BulldogHockey

It is a little tricky, this being my 4th manual and 3rd Honda product.

The DBW takes some getting used to get the timing just perfect. The "how much" throttle blip will become second nature as you get more miles on the car.

Overall I love the manual. The smooth starts and snick snick shifting are fantastic. My only real complaint is the 1-2 gearing distance, but that's been covered to death.

DAYTA

Ehh, personally I'd still like to maintain the resale value after the 5 years are up. At the rate I'm spending money, I probably won't be able to afford another new car until I'm too old to drive, so I'm gonna need to scrape every penny I can when I get another car . Also, I personally would really feel like an a-hole if I sold a busted car to someone simply because I didn't want to think that far ahead...

But more importantly, I think that rev-matching your shifts keeps driving manual fun because it creates another challenge once you've mastered basic shifting. I mean, I would think the main reason why one would get a 6MT car is to enjoy the control and performance over AT, and this technique is one of the advantages of a manual tranny. Plus, it's waaaaaay easier on your neck over no-gas shifting .

ClutchPerformer

It is.

The DBW allows the throttle to act differently in response to the SAME pedal inputs depending on the overall situation of the car. So it's an extra level of complexity to an already complex learning process. You actually get used to this also, but it takes a while.

Good luck.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

WHOA...a ClutchPerformer sighting...

Where have you been, man? We haven't seen you around much lately.

curls

He's been at the angry black man convention, can't you read?!?

junktionfet

I'd be curious to find out if the lag is simply due to sluggish processing, a sluggish throttle servo, or is it programmed to be sluggish. If it is the latter, what are our options for correcting this?

The circa-2003 TL with VSA had a good thing going--had a throttle cable and then a normally-open servo throttle ahead of the real throttle which allowed VSA to cut engine power.

frescagod

it's too bad the DBW doesn't provide any feedback to what the engine is currently doing. it's quite annoying, and i think i'd be willing to sacrifice the VSA for a normal cable throttle.

Colin

.... and don't get hm MAD!

jpt

1. If you've only been driving stick for two weeks don't expect to be able to do advanced MT techniques like rev-matched downshifts and heel/toeing well yet. It takes a lot of practice.

2. (Almost) all cars are different and you'll have to relearn the details when switching cars. The TSX is more different from most cars than average due to what I suspect is DBW-induced lag (I believe there is a bit of a smoothing effect applied to the throttle input) and so, even for experienced drivers of other MT cars, takes more of an adjustment than usual. That said, when my best friend (who drives an RSX-S) drove my TSX it only took him about a day to figure it out.

3. Junktionfet, the answer to your question is almost certainly that the lag is intentional. My co-worker drove a B6 A4, and it had a similar effect, which was eliminated when he got it chipped. I do not, however, believe that the Hondata reflash eliminates the lag for our car, sadly. I believe they do this to smooth the throttle input (to understand why I think this, floor the throttle really quick and then go back to part throttle -- it feels like it never goes all the way to fully-open at all). It is a bad design decision, though -- people are used to driving with mechanical throttles and muscle memory expects a precise and rapid response to the pedal and the lag and smoothing are both quite irritating. I am certain that an electronic system -- even one like BMW's where the entire throttle body is eliminated and all depends on the VVT system -- could be designed to respond so similarly to a cable throttle as to be indistinguishable (except when traction/yaw control kicks in of course).

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

We have to remember, though, that cars are engineered to the lowest common denominator in terms of consumer. They average consumer, unlike us enthusiasts, is less likely to notice the throttle lag, is less likely to buy a manual transmission, and would prefer the safety of the throttle smoothing effect to the lightning quick reactions. Just the unfortunate reality of the idiots we happen to share the road with.

jpt

I'm not sure about the last one, actually. My friend's parents drive a Passat (A/T) with the same throttle-smoothing "feature." His dad hates it but is ok with it, but it drives his mom absolutely nuts, because of a pattern that goes something like this: She pushes the throttle down until she feels the car accelerate the amount she wanted it to. Due to the lag, this means she has pushed the pedal down too far, but her foot somehow can't quite figure this out, so she doesn't let up on it until the system catches up and now she's accelerating too hard, so she lets up on the gas, again until she feels the car respond which is again too late so now she's decelerating too much, and she pushes down on the gas again... and so on ad infinitum. The delayed feedback just completely destroys her ability to find the right pedal position and I suspect that many if not most less-skilled drivers suffer similarly.

Newplay1

I usually

1. clutch in
2. shift to neutral
3. clutch-out
4. blip throttle
5. clutch in
6. shift
7. cluth-out

Basically I do all this within seconds, while eating sandwich..

junktionfet

I wonder if the dampening is all in the pedal assembly. Since the pedal is essentially a potentiometer with a return spring, I wonder if they placed a capacitor across the output to dampen the response and help eliminate erradic behavior when the potentiometer becomes "scratchy"? The capacitor would either be in the pedal itself or in the ECU.

If this is how they dampened the throttle, all it would need is a smaller value capacitor--that would go a long way in sharpening the response.

Does anyone know if the pedal can be disassembled?

PixelHarmony

I just Press the clutch -> Rev match while shifting to lower gear -> release clutch.

It's all a matter of learning which rpm you are is at around x mph.

West6MT

to clutchperformer, junktionfet, and pixel.


I find the DBW system a little annoying, but once you get used to it you can drive smoothly. I think I would rather have a cable,...........but if they sharpened up the responsiveness of the DBW system in the TSX, it would be a much better drive IMO. I get pissed off at the slow responsiveness of the throttle at times. That said, I still like the way the car drives in general.

junktionfet

For real... I'd like to think I'm reasonably objective but a bit pessimistic. However, I've told my friends in the car with me that were it not for the sluggish throttle, the TSX would probably be one of the most perfect front-drive 4 door sports sedans available, in a bone stock comparison.

West6MT

I agree.

aaronng

If you want the correct rpm most of the time, then release the clutch on the upstroke of the tacho needle.

Twisteds2k

heel to toe is a bitch in the TSX. The brake pedal is way too small