RogerPodacter

Well my battery indicator came on today for the first time. With my high mileage i expect the alternator to go out eventually. But my question, is it possible that it could be a bad battery? Remember a month ago i had battery problems, and they tested my electrical system and deemed my battery was at the end of its life. It only held about 12.2 volts.

At that same time they checked my alternator and it was putting out 14.3volts, so the alternaor seemed to still be going strong.

So does the battery indicator light mean a bad alternator OR bad battery? Or is it only for the alternator? I guess i'm just wondering if it could simply be a bad battery rather than "charging system not charging the battery" which is what the manual claims this indicator light means. Thanks!

npolite

It could be a few other things but most likely it is the alternator. The battery light indicates that it is not receiving current. How many miles on the car?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynph4KDSzQE

This video shows some other possibilities as well.

RogerPodacter

The car has 250k miles.

Well the light stayed on for 1 hour now its off. Then i was exiting the freeway and when braking the battery light came on, and then went off when i let off the brakes. So now its been off for the last 45 minutes.

RogerPodacter

ok i had the electrical system tested and the alternator is putting out 14.2 volts, so it looks to be running normal. My guess is its a bad battery since a few months ago the battery tested at near end of life. What i don't understand is why would a bad battery trigger a battery light indicator?

LaCostaRacer

^ Check your belt. It could be that the alternator belt is slipping under load. I had a problem like that on my first car and I would have dead battery problems when running the A/C because the engine was under load and the belt was slipping.

RogerPodacter

oh great idea. I forgot that i haven't yet changed my belt yet and its getting pretty old now. It could very well be skipping which could explain things.

JimHolloman

Lets presume that the battery indicator light monitors the voltage and triggers if the voltage is not above a certain threshold level.

Not get a bucket, cut a large hole in the bottom, and then fill it with water. Let's say the sufficient water indicator triggers whenever the bucket is not at least 90 percent full. The sufficient water monitor is going to trigger.

It is similar with a battery. A battery often fails when a cell shorts -- meaning that the battery will not hold (or store) a sufficient charge (voltage) to keep the indicator from triggering. Thus, the voltage level is not sufficiently high and the message is "charging system not charging the battery" -- and that message is 100 percent accurate. Sort of like "the water pipe is not filling the bucket". No mater how hard the alternator tries, the voltage is not going to rise above whatever voltage level the battery will allow. And the sensor reports that the battery is not being charged.

It my opinion, the sensor could be a lot smarter and measure both voltage and current and have different messages to indicate if the battery is at fault or the charging circuitry is at fault. But, a mechanic will know that the battery is more likely to be at fault and will check it first.

RogerPodacter

well i guess i expected the warming light to be smarter.

The other question i have is why has this light never come on before all those other times i've had my battery go bad? I've gone thru at least 3 or 4 batteries so far and this indicator light has never appeared before. So it made me think it was a larger issue.

But i definitely agree with your reasoning. Makes total sense. I guess i'll replace the battery and watch for the indicator light just to be sure. Thanks.

JimHolloman

A shorted cell is one way that a battery dies (generally caused by deposits that accumulate in the bottom of the battery). A battery can also loose its capacity to hold a charge (because the plates become coated -- or for other reasons). In such a case, the battery can still hold the voltage, but not a charge. Think of filling a swimming pool with the water line that feeds an ice maker. The water pressure, say 60 PSI, can be normal, but the water flow is much too low. Water pressure is like voltage. Water flow is like amperes. A storage tank is like a battery. As a battery deteriorates, it because like both a smaller water pipe (less amperes) and a smaller storage tank (less capacity).

Just as a precaution, detach the cables from the battery and make sure that both surfaces (battery post and cables) are clean -- and that the terminals have a tight fit. A brush, designed for this purpose, can be purchased at an auto parts store.

JimHolloman

I think for most people, it simply says "your car needs to go the shop ASAP". They don't try to understand it.

RogerPodacter

great explanation, thanks. a little refreshed from my electrical engineering class years ago (i went different engineeringmajor though!)

ironically the check battery light has been off now all day today, and all last night too. so i am guessing that the battery is just nearing the end of its life, so it was right on the cusp of holding sufficient charge, then going below hence triggering the indicator, then going back up to a sufficient enough charge to appear to be running normal.

i wonder how long it will continue to run like this. i'm gonna get a new battery anyway. also consider that a weak battery could be putting extra strain on the alternator jsut to keep the thing charged and running all of the accessories.

Simba91102

Like others here I'm sure, I'm curious about how this plays out, but...... I'll be really surprised if it's the battery. I'm pretty sure the "idiot light" is on the alternator side of the battery, which would disallow it from being concerned with (or able to determine) the charge in the battery. You may indeed have a failing battery, but I'm still betting on the alternator to trip the "charge" light. Something not mentioned here is the possibility that your alternator is not always producing enough power (similar to the effect of a slipping belt)(which is also a real long shot in my opinion). Sometimes it's producing enough (no light), other times it doesn't (the charge goes on). By all means replace the battery, but I'll be surprised if that completely cures the problem.

thunder04

iTrader: (1)

250k miles and on the original serpentine belt? I'd change it simply for peace of mind.

RogerPodacter

but what about the alternator putting out 14.2 volts when i tested it yesterday? i guess it's possible it was working then, like you said, but not early in the day when the light came on. in that case i'm not sure what action i should take.

a new battery is an easy step. i dont exactly have the money to take it to the dealer for an alternator when the alternator "seems" to be functioning normally. i'm not sure what to do...

RogerPodacter

yes i know i should be ashamed. a few months ago i actually did all my fluid changes, spark plugs, tranny, brake flush, etc. and the drive belt was the last on my list, but i put it off and never got around to it. i REALLY need to change the drive belt regardless...its so easy to do too (i think)...

salmart3129

There may be more that the simple voltage from the alternator there is the issue of current. There used to be a meter that one could put along the charging line from the battery to the altenator and it would read current flow to the altenator. I still have one of these...although it has been with me for many many years it works. This meter can allow you to see the draw of a starter or the charging current going to the battery. This might show anoither story... If the altenator is not sending a good current charge...it would show. Also, if used to see current flow when the starter is engaged it would show a weak battery in a real installed situation. See if you can find such a device...online, good luck. Belt change is a very good thing at your mileage too.

RogerPodacter

i wonder if autozone has that type of meter. Prob not.

Anyway i just wanted to add that when i did check the drive belt it looked ok, as good as that old of a belt can look. No cracking, and the auto tensioner was dead center where it should be. But it could be slipping but showing no external signs of wear. Gotta change it regardless.

RogerPodacter

ok sorry guys, this is my last post. Just had battery tested without car running and it was at 13.17 volts, so maybe it was really a belt slipping problem.

JimHolloman

I have never known of a serpentine belt slipping, although I am sure that it is possible at some point in time.

What to do:

1) If the battery is at least 3 years old, replace it.
2) Continue driving until the indicator light stays on for not less than 8 hours. Then, have someone that can load test a battery do so.
3) Get a spare battery, fully charged, and whatever tools are needed to change the battery and keep them in your truck for a week or two. Then, continue to drive until the starting is very sluggish or it will not start at all. Then, have someone that can load test a battery do so. Get home on the spare battery. The spare battery could be a battery booster that you buy at Wal-Mart or an auto parts store, but you may pay more.

The highest probability is the battery. If not the battery, then most likely the alternator. But, as you know, the alternator appears to be alright based upon the 14+ volt output. Check the voltage with your headlights, and AC, turned on. Try a new battery, or a different battery, or have the current battery load tested. Keep in mind that sometimes the Easter egg approach works well.

And, btw, I have seen practically new batteries fail -- it is very rare, but it can happen.

RogerPodacter

well the light is back on and staying on. Remember i had the battery tested only a few hours ago on my hour long commute home from work. So both days this has occurred after 1 hour driving. Maybe that tells something? I'm just not sure what because the battery JUST tested 13 volts a few hours ago. I'm going nuts here.

RogerPodacter

Ok well it happened. 10 minutes from my house on the freeway the entire dash lit up, every light, ABS, airbag, VSA, all of them. This is typically the last sign, or next step after battery indicator, or a dead alternator.

However with everything on, i was able to make it home another 10 min. But here's my confusion.

I turn off the car, wait 20 seconds, try to start and it only cranks once, then click click click. Dead battery sound. This leads me to believe that i was running on a working alternator those last 10 min, but it couldnt charge the expired battery.

Reason is the car drove perfectly still, no loss of power or anything. Of course i know the car couuld have been running off the battery too.

So i went to walmart and bought a new battery. Popped it in and the car started normally. But all the dash lights were still illuminated, abs, airbag, and still the battery indicator. I only ran the car for 2 minutes and came to bed.

So i'll drive to autozone first thing in the morning. But i still dont know if its the battery or alternator, which showed 14 volts remember. Do the illuminated dashboard lights have to be reset somehow? Or wouldnt they reset on their on themselves when the malfunction is fixed?

Maybe the car has to run a certain period of time before the lights will clear. I'm still confused.
Autozone in the morning, hope its an easy fix.

Simba91102

I know you stated that money is tight, but I think you really should consider taking the car to a dealer. They should be better equipped to diagnose what's going on with your charging system (be sure to tell them the story from the beginning).

RogerPodacter

thanks guys, i ended up taking it to the dealer this morning, and they claimed there were no loaner cars available but they ended up getting me one.

On the way there i did one last test at autozone and sure enough the alternator was not putting out any power. It was just dumb luck timing that the alternator previously tested ok, but on its way out.

I'm sure i'll be over paying at dealer, but i'd rather do it right. And i don't know of any shops around me. Of course i could put it in myself but everywhere has to order the alternator, nobody has it in stock. So i'd be stuck with no loaner. So the dealer works out best.

They will put a new belt while the have it off anyway. Maybe this thread will help others in the future even though a dead alternator is a pretty standard issue. Dealer quoted me 350 for the alternator and 200 for labor. Thanks guys.

RogerPodacter

Last question, new or re-manufacturer alternator? Re built is 50 cheaper and comes with a longer 3 year warranty. New only has 1 year warranty.

Simba91102

Expensive, but it will be done right and should put this story to rest (I guess I'm telling you that I agree with your decision to use the dealer). Tough decision, on the new versus rebuilt alternator, but I'd say the extra warranty would make the decision for me.

JimHolloman

A bad battery can kill an alternator; especially one with a shorted cell. It puts too much continuous drain on the alternator, causing the diodes to overheat. So, if you suspect that a battery may be going bad, get it checked ASAP. And, if the battery is three years old, go ahead and replace it if there are any doubts about its condition. $550 will buy about 8-10 batteries.

The last time I had an alternator go bad, I was quoted $250 for a new alternator and $180 for a rebuilt alternator. So, I pulled the alternator off the car and put new diodes in it (two or three diodes in one assembly) for $7.00. Never had any problem with it thereafter. That was a Pontiac. I imagine the parts for an Acura would be somewhat more (although they are probably Honda parts). A friend paid $70.00 for a wheel bearing for his Rolls Royce. He get the bearing, opened it -- and to his surprise found "Ford" stamped on it. Ford sold the same bearing for about $7.00.

RogerPodacter

guys i need advice. the dealership called and said they replaced the alternator, took it for a test drive, and it was fine. the tech got back to the shop, and now the car suddenly wont start. they say the start is bad.

now mind you the starter has not ONCE given any signs of failure. is this really possible?

of course i went thru all the talk about how it was working fine, never showed any symptoms of failure, and the fact that i was able to drive it in that morning. and even THEY THEMSELVES took it for a test drive, and it worked fine.

they took me back to the garage so the mechanic could show me under the hood, see the starter under the manifold, still connected with the positive wire to the battery, and the solenoid is connected. but what can i really do or prove...nothing.

so am i being worked over here? they best they are offering me is 15% off. so its another 400 bucks for a new starter, plus a couple hundred in labor, on top of the already fixed alternator. this is BS if you ask me, but i dont know what else to do.

of course i got the manager involved, etc. geesh this is not what i need. the car worked when i gave it to them, and now it magically doesnt work.

oh and they originally confirmed that it was in fact a bad alternator, text book case.

npolite

That sucks...nothing you can do or prove that they did or didn't. When you take it to the dealer you are at their mercy.

I don't think you could get a new alternator from Honda. Everyone that I've ordered is always a manufactured one.

They are still better than the Pepboys ones (which is why they are double the cost). Back in the day my father would be replacing them yearly as they would fail.

JimHolloman

I hate to say it, but you are stuck with whatever the dealer says.

There is definitely the possibility that the starter was what was causing the problems you were having. But, why would the dash lights say on? The starter should have no effect on them.

Or, you could have both an alternator and a starter going bad at almost the same time. And, there is a remote possibility that something else could be at play; especially in regard to the dash lights staying on. Electrical systems can be difficult.

If everything now works other than the starter turning over the engine, then it is likely that both the alternator and the starter needed to be replaced. I have seen it happen -- and it always puts the service department in an awkward position. I have seen some very unhappy customers when a car was taking to a shop to get a $50 item replaced -- and a $500 part fails while the car is in the shop. On the other hand, I am always sceptical of dealerships. Sloppy workmanship is all to common. And, with a decline in sales, many dealerships are looking to the service department for increase revenues.

But, basically you are stuck. The only other option I see is for you to pull the car and take it to another shop (perhaps an independent shop). But, that has extra risks because someone else already has there hands in it; and it can turn into a case of finger pointing.

JimHolloman

With that said, there is no way replacing a starter should cost $600.00. A rebuilt starter is around $70-100 and I would guess that it would take no more than an hour to replace a starter (usually just two bolts and one bracket) unless it is in a really difficult location.

RogerPodacter

i totally agree. the dealership admitted that they are in an awkward position, and they were trying to be very understanding. but with the weak sales lately, i have to wonder. hell i was talking to a salesman while i waited today, asked him how sales were, and he flat out said not very good at all. so who's to say they arent just trying to make a quick buck? but then think to myself, would they be so blatant in doing so? sabotaging a part when we KNEW it was a standard failed alternator fix? i mean it was a pretty standard case, alternator put out no voltage, and the dealer confirmed that as well. the starter never gave any problems.

but i DO admit that the average life of a starter is probably around 7000 cold starts. you figure 2-3 starts per day, every day for 6 or 7 years, that's about 7600 starts right there. so a failed starter is very believable. but to happen with no warning? i cant help but wonder.

also remember high mileage doesnt really have much effect on a starter. i could drive 10 miles a day, or 300 miles a day, and will have only used the starter once or twice. so its not exactly a high mileage item, but a number of uses item.

finally, i'm not convinced that putting a new starter in there will fix it. what if it was a failed solenoid (which they say they checked), or some loose connection problem (which they say it isnt)?

RogerPodacter

well the new starter was 400 dollars, which is robbery itself. and i didnt want to deal with buying it myself from napa auto, then having the dealer cry foul that it was a bad part or some nonsense. so i'll just let them take care of it all.

and in their defence, the starter is located under the manifold, so its in almost the worst possible spot. its not easily reachable. in fact based on dealership labor prices, 200 dollars for taking it all apart might not be that bad actually. nonetheless a 600 dollar job now turned into a 1200 dollar job, and i feel like i'm getting ripped off, with no way to do anything about it.

npolite

The starter lists for $375 (discounted to 281.25) on acuraauotmotiveparts.net so $400 is just around where is should be.

JimHolloman

I would hope that the starter will be the final resolution.

Were you able to find any reason, or logic, for the dash lights staying on after you replaced the battery? Did they ever go off?

It is expensive, but it is not uncommon for a starter to need replacing after 5-6 years. Most often it is the solenoid that arcs to the point that the contacts no longer allow enough current to pass -- but the two should be replaced as one unit. The starter eventually needs new lube in the bushings, or roller bearing, in the rear (generally a ball bearing is in the front).

In any case, both your starter and solenoid has seen a lot of use and you will have one that ought to be good for enough 6-10 years after it is changed. So, no matter what happened, you might want to consider the matter, at this point, as little more than routine maintenance on a car that is aging -- but, it still beats new car payments.

You have gotten good service from the car. Total it with your high mileage and see what the insurance company says it is worth.

RogerPodacter

yes well the lights actually DID go off with the new battery. when i first installed the new battery, i started the car only for 1 minute, so the lights must not have had enough time to reset. the next morning when i started the car, everything was back to normal, all lights off except the battery light of course, which made sense since the alternator was dead and just running off the battery.

yes i fully expect certain things to start going out on a car with high mileage, especially one that has treated me so good. but i had emergency money set aside for these auto issues, but it was for things like the clutch and brakes and alternator, which i KNOW would be going out very soon, NOT for things like the starter, which i thought would last a good while longer. so i'm kinda blowing my emergency fund wad now when i hope i dont have any problems before i can save up some money again.

my boss actually said i'm getting a decent deal considering the price and dealership. i think the total will be 1100 bucks after i got as much discount as i could.

my dad actually wants to buy my car. about 2 years ago the dealership here wanted me to trade it in and was going to give me around 11,000 at the time, when it had less mileage. i thought that was a good deal. i'm sure its worth much less now, probably around 6,000 i'm guessing. maybe i should start looking at a new TL.

RogerPodacter

the car is all done, and man i dont remember the starter sounding so strong when my car was new.

anyway i have a question again. i want to swap my old battery back in because the new one i bought is not the right size/configuration, so its in there but its not very pretty. my old battery is weak on charge because of all this, and i dont have a trickly charger.

i asked the acura tech and he told me that i can do it while the car is running. to start the car, remove the battery, and install the new one and then let the alternator charge up the old battery. i told him i've heard this is not safe to do with newer cars and their complex electricl components, but he said not at all, they actually do it when repairing all of their cars so they dont have to worry about losing customers radio presets and whatnot.

now my question is obviously is this really ok to do? i dont want to fry the ECU or navi system. and if so, i assume its negative off first, on last, just like normal battery swap.

JimHolloman

Be sure not to let the red cable touch any part of the body. I would probably cover the terminal end of the red cable first with a quart ziplock freezer bag (not as thin as a sandwich bag) and then with a rag with a couple of #64 rubber bands to hold it in place while I actually swapped the batteries. Naturally, you zip the bag as closed as the cable allows once you have it over the terminal.

Remove the top holddown and any bolts holding the battery in place before you start the car. You need not be concerned about the black cable since it is already connected to the body of the car.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

I personally wouldn't do it and risk messing up something else in the process, especially after all the money you've spent. It's almost like swapping out a household light switch or install electrical components without turning off the power first. Just think about the potential problem and what you gain in return - a minute or two to program the radio.

RogerPodacter

well i dont care about radio presets. the battery i want to swap does not have enough charge to start the car. but thinking about it, i can just swap with the car off then use the battery i just removed to jump start the old battery. dont see why that wouldnt work.

EM2typeflex

Sounds like you had a helluva time with this dead battery/bad alternator/bad starter. Today the vsa, abs, emergency brake, and triangle lights all came on meanwhile I was driving. Got off to eat and when I returned to my tsx the battery was dead. I got someone to give me cables and there were no lights on the way home.