bob shiftright

I was reading the Accord i-CTDi road test in "Car", the English magazine last night.

Quiet (for a diesel), 6-speed manual with a self-adjusting clutch, 251lb/ft. of torque.

FIFTY-TWO, that's 52 MPG!

Since they're not importing that or the Accord wagon (Touring) I'm beginning to think they must HATE us here. They even sell the turbodiesel in FRANCE! What gives?

dom

I have to think Honda's done extensive research regarding offering their deisels to the NA market. But theres also a few factors to consider here. The engine your reffering to above is Honda's first ever in house designed deisel engine. You can't expect them to offer it in the US immediately after its world launch. Secondly, that engine finds its home in the Euro Accord which is our TSX. How many deisel powered cars can you find in the lineups of Lexus, Infiniti, BMW, Audi etc here in NA ? I can't think of one. Deisel and luxury just don't go hand in hand I guess.

I would expect that engine to be offered in a Honda product in NA in the near future though.

rb1

I would definitely consider a diesel once the low sulfur regulations go into effect in 2004 in the U.S. and makers can start bringing over some of the Euro-spec cars.

The VW 90hp/155 lb-ft TDI currently sold here offers respectable performance compared to the hybrids (0-60 and 50-70 both in 11ish seconds), but is otherwise on the slow side.

In Europe, they have versions that have 300+ lb-ft, 0-60 times only a second slower than the TSX, comparable top speeds,
and 50-70 times almost 2 seconds faster while still averaging close to 50 mpg.

moda_way

domn has it right. Mercedes and BMW sales in the past are extremely low. The common perception (as bad as it is amongst us more car savvy) is that diesel is dirty, low performing, and difficult to find. Think about it... what would someone owning a luxury based car think about having to fill up at a truck stop... cause that is the immediate perception. I don't share it, but the fact remains...

JeffPhx

Honda will not introduce the diesel in the US market. There is really no market for it because gas is so cheap. In Europe, the sales of diesels are about 40 to 50% of the market because their gas prices are higher compared to diesel fuel per litre. Here, gas and diesel prices per gallon are not far off and the advantages of a diesel engine are smaller.

It is a shame though, it sounds like another great engine from Honda.

ClutchPerformer

OK, I'll bite. What the heck is a self-adjusting clutch?

jonas

I know you mean in the NA market but in Europe that statement would be completely false... i mean you can get any BMW/Mercedes/Audi etc. in diesel... yes you can buy the new 7 series in a diesel 730di 735di 740di (off the top of my head)... and yes the last one is a 4 liter diesel and i believe the 0-60 time on that bad boy is in the low 7s


My family owns a Peugeot 406 2.0 HDI in Europe and that thing is awsome in terms of milage... i can get over a 1000km out of a tank (without a sweat) that's city driving... the tank is 60 liters

anyway... until the gas prices stay low we wont see diesel any time soon... however (hopefully) SUV's will start showing up in diesel... the likes of X5 3.0D and so on

sauceman

Add to this Mercedes with a complete line of diesels, as well as VW/Audi who go so far as to sport a 300hp V10 TDI.

There is even Jaguar with a 4cyl diesel in their X-Type, as well as a future 2.7litre 230hp v6 diesel for the S-Type.

rb1

Something you can't get in a Honda...

Seriously, though. In Honda's you have to get the clutch pedal travel checked and adjusted every 15,000 miles or so. With a self-adjusting clutch, this is not necessary.

Not really sure what the pros and cons are...

Dan Martin

What car doesn't have one? Every one I've seen built after 1960 has had one....

EDIT: Wow, I guess I'll have to look at my sister's Civic sometime!

bob shiftright

How does it work? I dunno 'xactly but it sure sounds awfully nifty!

"Refinement is therefore the key criteria with this new engine. The guy in charge of the project, senior chief engineer Kenichi Nagahiro, was originally responsible for Honda's variable valve timing systems (yep, the father of the VTEC powerband), which is seriously cool. He doesn't like diesels, so the whole project has been guided by the idea that it shouldn't react or feel like a diesel. Nagahiro has made the clutch self-adjusting so that it doesn't have the high torque snatch of many diesel saloons (a particular problem in the 320d) and he's put in thicker glass and extra padding on the underbonnet and A-pillars to tune out noise and vibration." -Car, November 2003

rick955i

First, GM converting normal gas engines to diesel have tainted us. Secondly, the CARB is F****** short sighted and would rather see us driving the EV-1 than more realistic cars like CTDIs and TDIs, it is totally illogical. Lastly, if we could get low sulphur diesel here, we could have high performance diesel cars....don't get me started, this whole direct injection turbo diesel conversation gets me SOOOOOOOO pissed off!!!!

Brad

Naw, Honda doesn't hate us. The North American market--or at least the US market--hates diesel.

Not only GM's half-baked grope to convert gas engines to diesel was a disaster, but other makes of diesel cars offered diesels that were noisy, smelly, and often smokey if not well maintained. 15-20 years ago I dreaded getting stuck behind a Mercedes in traffic because of smelly smokey diesels.

Nowadays they have significantly improved diesel engines. Their fuel consumption is very low compare to gas engines, but performance still lags similar gas engine models.

Dan Martin

Sorry to bring this thread back from the dead but I just looked this up in my Helm's manual and the TSX does indeed have a hydraulic self-adjusting clutch.

sauceman

So did my Accord EXR 95.

bob shiftright

No, it's always nice to bring the dead back to life!

As I read it Nagahiro's innovation is that the diesel's clutch adjusts itself every time it's used to compensate for the rate at which it's released. Not just to compensate over time for normal wear. Of course I could be wrong, but would they have made such a big deal about the inventor of VTEC designing this otherwise?

Has anyone actually driven one of these diesels?

omgsoup

the VW Toureg is supposed to be coming out with a twin-turbo 5.0L V-10 TDI-PD engine with 313hp and 553 lb-ft. (which will be awesome) and yeah, the 1.9L TDI is quite slow (i own one). but the honda diesel engine would be great. but diesel engines (avalible only through VW right now in the US) only make up 1% of total VW sales, so i can see how Honda would not want to introduce them, as they might not sell; however, the honda name/reliabilty, as well as the 251lb/ft would imply pretty good performance (it would have around 120+ hp i'm assuming), which would be quicker than your average 2.0L gas engine would maybe increase sales.

sauceman

The diesel ratio of sales for VW is much higher in Canada, and it happens to be a prime selling ground for... Honda!

I'd like to think it's not impossible, not to buy one, but out of curiosity.

LeeLee

Diesel = Truck Engine

Unless I want a vehicle that is used to tow heavy loads I will never consider a diesel engine. For performance driving enjoyment, diesel ranks somewhere between worn out suspension bushings and a steering rack that will only turn left.

And will you people *PLEASE* for the love of all carbon based life forms, stop quoting crank torque numbers for diesel engines as if they are a prelude to galaxial orgasmic tremors.

255ft-lb at the crank? So what? I can give you 255ft-lb at the crank with a hamster and some gears.

An 11-second VW TDI? Not unless you chip that smoke stack and find a tail wind.

rb1

Well, if you've added gears, then it's not at the crank.


The same can probably be said for any mass-produced car powered by a normally aspirated 4-cylinder engine. In fact, how many mass-produced 11-second car models are sold in the U.S period, regardless of engine type or displacement?

LeeLee

What's different from a diesel engine with 255ft-lb at the crank and an empty engine case with a hamster inside along with gears to produce 255ft-lb at the shaft?

The difference is that the diesel engine produces 90HP and the hamster does not. Therefore my point that it is pointless to discuss crank torque. Talk about crank HP instead. That way you won't be open to comparisons with a hamster.

90HP, be still my heart.

I meant 0-60 in 11 seconds, which was quoted earlier as the acceleration of a 90HP TDI equipped VW.

rb1

Fair enough. But note that this is the U.S. spec TDI (which incidentally went up to 100 hp/177 lb-ft @ 1800-2200 RPM this year.)

The 170 hp TDI sold in Europe will do 0-60 very close to the TSX (8 seconds officially, with 7 second times unofficially reported), has a top speed of 135 mph, and 7 second top gear pass from 50-70 mph vs 10 seconds in the TSX despite having much taller gears. And, it gets 50-60 mpg on the highway.

LeeLee

Right, no one is questioning the excellent top-gear acceleration and economical nature of diesel engines due to the characteristic bottom-heavy torque curve and the resulting flat HP curve. Just that such non-performance-oriented characteristics makes diesel engines unappealing to driving enthusiasts.