kvan2007

Hey gang. I'm stumped and need your wisdom. This is for a 2004 TSX, ~96k miles, 5AT, non-nav.

TL;DR: Car is slow to start, isn't battery or alternator, could it be starter or faulty PCB in the HVAC/radio console?

Here is the full story.

April
Car had been slow to start for a few weeks/months. One workday, it won't start, leaves wife stranded. I run to Autozone, buy a new battery, and install it. Little screw thing on the negative battery cable broke in half (the one that clamps the cable to the battery post). I drive a Honda S2000, so I took the screw from my neg. cable and put it on the TSX (she had a very urgent meeting to get to, so I had to improvise). Car works okay for a while.

October
TSX starts cranking slowly again (may have been doing so for a few weeks by now; I don't always get the low-down right away). Suspecting a parasitic draw, I unplug the KPTech Mirror Down and Beep modules that I had installed a year prior. It doesn't help. Car is slow to crank and failed to start one morning, though it started a few minutes later.

I test the battery, and it tests 12.4v, which I erroneously thought was good. I tried buying an Accord negative cable, but it won't fit the TSX. So, I replace the negative cable on the TSX with the known, working negative cable from my Honda S2000. In the meantime, I drive up to Autozone to load-test the battery. Battery is too weak to test, so I leave it with them to charge for a couple hours, then I completely and thoroughly un-install the KP modules (re-solder the original wires back, etc.).

I visually inspect the USA Spec iPod interface to ensure it's plugged in. The only other aftermarket equipment on the car: six Alpine coax speakers (the tweeters in the dash are disconnected and the plugs are taped). The Alpines have been installed for about three years without any problems--all connections are well-soldered and taped.

I return to Autozone to pick up the battery, and before I leave, the guy tests it, and it's bad (12.2v, IIRC). After testing three new ones from the shelf (all bad), we unwrap the brand-new pallet of Duralast Gold batteries, find the one that fits the TSX (51 group), and test it: It's perfect. I put it back on the car. Next day, problem persists. Take car to Autozone for load test and alternator test--everything is good. That jibes with my tests of 12.7v with car off and 14.2 with car running. Car still threatens to not turn over after sitting all night (this is in Houston, BTW, with temps between 70º and 90º).

November
I return to Autozone and repeat the load test, charging system test, and starter check (starter is on car, not removed). Everything is good. I'm stumped. But in the meantime, we have to tow a small Uhaul trailer from Houston to San Francisco (2,000 miles). Ain't nobody got time fo the car to not start on a 2,000-mile road trip with a Uhaul in tow! I buy an automatic/self-contained jump starter in case we need it. We never do. Problem persists during the three-day road trip, except it was slightly improved because we began to wait about 10 seconds between turning the key to ON and then to IGNITION.

December (today)
Problem has persisted. Slow to crank after sitting in the morning. We turn all accessories off when parking the car, and when it's cranking, all the interior lights dim while it cranks. Waiting for at least 8 seconds between ON and IGNITION seems to help somewhat. And once the car turns over, it seems to start just fine after that.

I was looking around in the center console today, because an unrelated (or is it?) issue is that the buttons for my HVAC system are not illuminating—everything else is lit just fine, only the buttons for Auto, Off, Dual, Mode, Defrost, Rear Defrost and the fan and temp. up/down buttons are dark (this isn't dimness or the "easter egg" of the CD/AUX button turning the lights off). They've been off for a while--the wife can't remember how long and forgot to tell me until I was in the car and noticed.

Also, the USA Spec module stopped working. It charges the iPhone but won't play music/see the iPhone. I did bend the harness that plugs into the module whilst troubleshooting this slow-to-start problem, so that might be why it's jacked up,though I see no visual damage to the harness under a magnifying glass. At any rate, it's been removed from the car. Also, I tested the CD changer this morning, and it works fine.

Summary of Things I've done, Tested, Replaced
- Battery replaced in April; went bad, replaced again with known good battery in Oct.
- Alternator and battery checked and are okay (repeatedly, by different people and by me).
- Negative cable replaced with known working Honda one.
- Visually inspected ignition coils.
- Checked multiple times with code reader and GoPoint iPhone app (no CELs thrown)
- Spark plugs replaced with NGK iridiums about three or four years ago.
- Removed all aftermarket items except Alpine coax speakers, because that's a PITA, and they worked great for years, so I don't think that's it.
- Checked visible grounds for corrosion and wire integrity; cleaned battery posts, checked positive cable to starter as best I could without removing IM.

Symptoms/Issues
- Car very slow to start after sitting all night; sometimes have to let it it sit for a minute and try again. Always starts eventually, though.
- HVAC control buttons do not light up (only the A/C buttons--the climate control display, radio, clock, or seat heater lights all work great)
- My USA Spec iPod adapter stopped recognizing my iPhone. It still charges it, though.

I am now leaning toward the starter--perhaps a faulty solenoid is at play?
Or do I need to replace the PCB for the center console? Maybe a faulty PCB is causing parasitic drain?
Could it be a worn key? I've tested with both keys, with the same result. I haven't tried using the valet key (least-used key). I only mention this because the son of a friend of mine couldn't start his Civic, and it ended up being a worn-out key.


Oh, and to fully explain how the car behaves when it's slow to start: I turn the key to ON, hear the whirring (fuel pump?). Eight to 10 seconds later, I turn to the key to IGNITION. Car starts to crank, and if it were an older car, I would press the gas pedal moderately while doing this, because it just seems like it needs an extra "oomph" to get there. If car doesn't start that time, I turn the key off, wait a few seconds, try again. While it's cranking, the interior lights dim in time with the engine struggling to start. Second or third time is always the charm.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I'm at a loss. Thanks for reading and for any insight/advice.

V-dub-R

Did you check if battery cables are not corroded?
You might want to do a parasitic draw test first.

JimHolloman

You sure are taking an Easter Egg approach to troubleshooting. You might be better off taking the car to a dealership for repair.

Find someone that has a clip-on amp meter and check:
Current draw while cranking.
Battery voltage while cranking.

If the current draw is within specs., then it is not the solenoid. If the current draw is too low, then it could be the solenoid not making a good connection.

If the current draw is too high, then I would definitely suspect the starter.

A fully charged battery, at rest, should be 13.5 volts.

I would advise keeping the foot off the throttle when starting. I generally never touch the throttle. The few times I tried pressing the throttle a little while cranking, it caused the car to have to crank about twice as long before starting. The computer (ECU) is designed to provide the correct fuel mixture while starting -- as well as while driving.

You have a 2004. If the starter and solenoid have never been rebuilt nor replaced, I believe I would try to find a rebuilt starter and solenoid and replace both of them. Nine years for a solenoid is about a lifetime. If the starter is replaced, be careful with proper alignment (shims of different thicknesses may be required to get the correct mesh with the teeth on the flywheel).

But, as suggested, you might be better off turning this problem over to a repair shop.

TexasHonda

I can't tell from your post whether engine turns over fine, but takes a long time to start, or engine turns over slowly causing long start.

If the first case is true (turns over fine but won't start easily), something besides the battery and starter is problem.

If the second case is true, I would suspect a bad starter, perhaps worn contacts, bad pos battery cable, etc. Check starting amps. Low amps (spec is 80A or less). If low amps, then electrical resistance somewhere; starter or cables.

good luck

YeuEmMaiMai

test your starter... that will cause slow cranking, for your other issues check ignition switch contacts

kvan2007

UPDATE: So I haven't replaced anything or done any maintenance on the car at all, because the problem has not progressed. It is still a tad slow to start in the mornings, but we have gotten into the habit of waiting until the chime stops before turning the ignition/key to start. That seems to really help. What I find really interesting is that the car now sits for a week or more at a time without being started. Every 10 days or so, when it crosses my mind, I'll crank it up and let it run for a little bit.

I may be wrong, but if this were a power draw issue, it seems to me that it would be worse the longer it sat (we used to start and drive the car every day, and now it's rarely driven). Am I wrong about that?

tmcao55

I had similar intermittent issues. Changed the starter and now it's all good.

Davu

i got an 04, and my starter died 2 weeks ago after slow cranking. no more issues now

kvan2007

So, it turns out it was the starter. The car would not start at all—even banging on the starter wouldn't help—and left us stranded 70 miles from home. AAA dropped the ball, and it took them five hours and two different flatbed tow trucks to get us home.

At any rate, I bought a new starter and installed it, and everything is perfect now. :-)

curls

I'm facing the same problem myself. New starter from Honda (I have a hookup so it was cheaper than a rebuilt non-OE!). Installing on Sunday.
Hopefully the current one lasts that long.
*knock on wood*

curls

I replaced mine on Friday (nicer day outside).
Everything went smoothly but I'd recommend removing the drivers' side radiator fan in addition to the radiator reservoir. Once that fan is out (dead simple), accessing the lower IM bracket bolt is easy with a 3/8" drive 14mm socket, 6" extension, and ratchet.


I did take apart the old starter and noticed significant gouging and scoring on the armature, as well as two of the 4 brushes were worn down SO BAD that they were almost un-attached from the copper braided wire that energizes them.
At 262,222km... the old starter didn't owe me a thing. Replaced with OEM (new!) for just over $200 due to a hook-up at a Honda dealer.

Kparris

My car does the same thing, mine is also an 04 tsx. I've always and battery issues and starting issues. But not everyday but at least a couple times a year. I've had many new batteries put in. A week or so ago it wouldn't start at all and right as I was heading to work. Nothing, no lights turning on or anything. Got a new battery and it worked. But it was put in backwards so had it fixed and then took it to Acura because the lights on the dash wouldn't turn off.

So they found a parasitic draw on the battery, the radio is causing them to drain. Which is 2500 to replace new and 1500 used. Or get an aftermarket one. So they unplugged it and a week later my car won't start again but will turn that first notch to where the lights come on. So it got towed today to Acura and they dragged my front bumper some , not happy about that. And the people at Acura left me a message and based on trying to start it they think it's the starter.
Wonder if it's a tsx thing. Sounds like a lot of people have had this starting issue.

So you all think the parasitic draw could be from the radio? My friends father in law thinks it could be the radio more so than the radio after research it. But I figure Acura would know with having tested the car.

John Horner

Thanks for the pointer to the starter motor itself in this situation. I was chasing weak battery and high current drain accessories problems that were not real problems when I finally bit the bullet and replaced the starter motor. With a new starter, the car starts up quickly every time. What made the whole thing weird is that the car would start if I put the vehicle on a trickle charger overnight, but would act like it had a dead battery if I just parked in the garage overnight without an external battery charger.

I think my vehicle must have gotten to a marginal state where a fully charger battery was enough to start in the morning, but even slight degradation to 95% of fully charged wasn't enough to get me going.

FWIW, I used a brand new Remy brand starer motor which incorporates a different solenoid than the original factory design. The replacement was Made in Mexico, not China like so many of the aftermarket new starters are. So far I'm very pleased with the Remy unit and am glad to have my car reliable again.

Even though the factory manual doesn't call for it, I removed the radiator cooling fans and the radiator in order to improve access to the starter and make it easier to remove the bracket which attaches to the intake manifold. I put a new Denso radiator in because it only cost my $80, appeared to be identical to the original unit, and replace a ten year old, 148k mile original part. I also changed out the thermostat and it's plastic housing as a maintenance item given how easy that was to do with the intake manifold and radiator removed. All told I spent about six hours on the project moving at a very deliberate pace.

John Horner

I spent a lot of time chasing BS parasitic draw theories. My problem was a weak starter motor.

bluecarbonfiber

had similar issue turned out to be the starter.. seems to be the known issue for this vehicle