J.R.

97 BONE STOCK FOR NOW CL 2.2 - 209k I've had her for a couple hundred miles now been searchin and surfin.... mad props to the posters!

With 200k+ I figured it's time for a tune-up. Prior to doing seafoam I replaced plugs with iridium NGK, new Borg Warner dist cap & button. (I read where I should have seafoamed first, but figured WTF - I'm not going to switch the she-ite back out - irridium is tough!) I haven't done wires yet, the resistance checked out between 9 and 12 ohms - longer wires being progressively 1 ohm more in resistance.

I couldn't tell and signifigant gains from the tune-up. She idles and runs smooth, but there is no power down low. It seems like there is a little boost at 2,500rpm, then another at 3,200, then around 4,200k I can barely feel the Vtec kick in. Like I said, the engine is smooth, but it feels kinda jerky or peaky at these rpms.

So I added seafoam thru brake booster vacuum line only. I followed the directions on the can (1/3 pint slowly - kill engine - wait 5 - recranked)

Didn't put any in the engine oil cause I just changed it

Threw a CEL as expected - removed neg terminal for an hour.

Recranked - no CEL

Seems like I lost even more power, especially down low.

Question 1 - While in learn mode, is the timing retarded or something? Could the reset be causing a temporary power loss? I've got 50 miles on it after the reset.

Question 2 - Seafoam doesn't get into the engine oil if you suck it in the brake booster line only, does it??? I don't see how it can, the PVC valve is good.

Question 3 - What do I do next... wires? I'm not hip on replacing items if I don't have too.

Question 4 -Could the I.A.C. solenoid be stuck open or shut, causing low end power loss???

STL+3.0CL

Hummm, not sure I seafoamed this last summer and noticed a little more power. I didn't go through the brake booster line though. I know the bottle says to, But i followed the DIY on here and took apart the T right into the PCV system. How much smoke did it burn off and for how long?

97BlackAckCL

iTrader: (6)

PCV vaccuum system and crank case

J.R.

Thanks STL - It smoked pretty good after I cranked it back up - for 15 minutes or so, maybe longer. It was dark. After reading thru probably 25 seafoam threads, seems like people have used both the brake booster and PVC vacuum lines equally. I liked the brake booster line because the car revs up when you disconnect it.

redsly

PCV = Positive Crankcase Ventilation (engine)
PVC = Polyvinyl Chloride (plumbing, etc...)

J.R.

Thanks for clearing that up.... PVC

You guys really know how to make a new guy feel at home here.

I can feel the

5-speed

hes a 2nd gen. cl man, dont mind him

redsly

Lol, sorry... I just wouldn't want you going to some professional asking about the PVC on your car and have him laugh at you. I was just trying to clear it up that it is PCV....

97BlackAckCL

iTrader: (6)

My best friend is a mechanic and manages a grease monkey, and he gets people all the time asking him to change the pvc valves

J.R.

Fun with TYPOS! Thanks for getting my back redsly. I do know the diff.

N E WAY.... Speaking of typos that make you sound like a dumbass... Check Question 4 in my first post. I meant to type I.A.R.

I saw this from Mitchell On Demand, thought this might be playin with my down low revs (Thanks for the Mitchel BTW )

J.R.

I drove a little more at lunch, and the power is back to where it was before the seafoam. I guess the ECU had to do some learning.

But I still have no torque down low. She falls on her face at take off, hardly no power on hills untill 2500 rpms then it feels like Vtec kickin in.

STL+3.0CL

Once you seafoam and let it sit in there for a little while it has to be burned out. I wouldn't let that stuff just sit in there. Did you drive it right after you seafoamed, or did you just turn it on? Also, you never noticed any power loss b4 you seafomed? Is it an automatic?

STL+3.0CL

Ohh, and the obvious question that hasn't been asked is Have you checked your plugs recently?

TexasHonda

Question 1 - While in learn mode, is the timing retarded or something? Could the reset be causing a temporary power loss? I've got 50 miles on it after the reset.
Response: Not to my knowledge. Timing is controlled by sensors which adjust timing continuously based on factory map.

Question 2 - Seafoam doesn't get into the engine oil if you suck it in the brake booster line only, does it??? I don't see how it can, the PVC valve is good.
Resonse: Seafoam isn't your problem.

Question 3 - What do I do next... wires? I'm not hip on replacing items if I don't have too.
Response: Any indications of missing? Poor fuel mileage? No reason to start replacing parts unless you can identify a malfunction.

Question 4 -Could the I.A.C. solenoid be stuck open or shut, causing low end power loss???
Response: IAC controls idle and has little or no affect on performance under partial or full throttle.

My first thought is perhaps you are expecting too much from a 2.2L engine in a fairly heavy vehicle. It will never be a real performer. Adequate, but nothing to thrill the average lead foot. If mileage is 25 mpg or so w/ mixed city/freeway driving, nothing is wrong w/ your fuel efficiency.

If you know someone w/ a scanner/monitor you can use the OBD2 system to monitor engine performance; O2 sensor response, timing, coolant temperature, inlet air temp, etc. You can put together a monitor system for ~ $200 bucks (software + used laptop). I've had one for several years and found it be well worth the investment. A monitor could provide a clue if there is something wrong. A "slow" but still working O2 sensor might cause poor fuel efficiency and might cause some loss of power (not sure about this?). Otherwise, you might seek out a good tuneup shop for help.

good luck

artbran

iTrader: (2)

What software are you talking about?

hornedfrog2000

I think I know what you mean with the power increase at different rpms... I can feel it where it's like it kicks in a little more juice at like 2500 and then up a bit higher.

TexasHonda

OBD2 Scanner Software

This is software I've been using for 2-3 yrs. I had some initial problems, but Harrison made good on his claim for complete compatibility and sent new firmware (RS232 interface w/ chip) that communicates w/ your ECU. I've used on Accords, Acura TL and CL, Subaru Forester, Dodge Ram 1500, Ford ?, and Toyota Celica w/ full functioning.

I purchased several IBM laptops over the years and use one of them for my monitor. You can buy them all day long on ebay for under $100. This use is one of the few useful applications for these obsolete laptops. You'll probably need an AC/DC inverter to drive the power supply. Most batteries are long dead.

One of the more useful features is to monitor your O2 sensor and determine if 1) primary sensor is functioning correctly, and 2) if your catalytic converter is working correctly.

good luck

J.R.

That sounds like a great use of an old laptop!

J.R.

She's a 5 speed. I let the seafoam sit for 5 min before I fired it back up.

After driving it for a while, I don't think seafoam hurt it at all. I also added some to the tank (1oz/gal) so it might still be screwing with the o2 sensors a little. I put another 50 on it last night and this morning and I can't really tell that it made much of a difference either pos or neg. Maybe you are right and I'm expecting too much from the lil SOHC. I'm averaging 29MPG, I doubt there is much wrong with it, I just want to get all I can out of it in stock form, performance and mileage wise. I don't really know much about its previous life, other that it looks like it was taken care of.

I have already changed the plugs, dist. cap, rotor button, and air filter (stock). I also cleaned the EGR manifold. It's just plain weak until 2500 rpm's, then it's like Vtec kicks in, actually it's more noticeable than when Vtec actually kicks in at 4x00 rpm. Maybe that's normal. Most of the time, it falls on its face, jerking your head forward right after the clutch engages, then like clockwork, it lurches forward when the tach hits 2500. That's why I thought it might be connected to the I.A.R. (not I.A.C. that was a typo on post#1):blindfold

Before you think that I'm an idiot and can't drive a stick - I learned how to drive on a VW bug in 1979. I was 8. - Yep, I'm 35 and have been driving a stick forever. I can double clutch with the best of 'em. That brings up another thing. The Clutch is from hell.

I might be getting a little off topic here, but the clutch is really tricky. It let's out at the bottom and is VERY grabby. It wants to dump all at once, in maybe 1/4" of pedal travel it goes from full slip to full grip. The pedal is very heavy. It feels like it might be a race clutch with a stiff pressure plate, but that is unlikely since it is bone stock all the way down to the factory air filter with the snorkel in place. I have to slip the shit out of it to be smooth, it's annoying. I will eventually go into the clutch and check it out. I printed off the excellent DIY on clutch removal that wannabe posted and when I can't take it anymore I'll do it. At that time I'll spring for a light flywheel, maybe around 12# from what I've read on here. That should help a little bit with takeoff.

I guess only 1 question remains

-Could the the I.A.R. be malfunctioning (IAR stands for Intake Air Resonator) As I understand it, this boosts midrange torque by opening or closing a resonator chamber between the air filter and throttle body. I guess I will pull that apart and see if the solenoid is working. Anybody been in there already?

for the rant and long post!

I need after all this typing!!!

redsly

Just got yet another question, since I don't and never have owned a first gen.
Is your clutch Hydraulic or just a straight up cable?
I personally liked my clutch to grab low, but that is why I would adjust it that way in my Integra.

If you have a cable operated clutch, there should be an adjustment knob on the cable that would change the engagement location, but it wouldn't affect the 1/4" distance from disengaged to engaged.
Your pressure plate may be worn or damaged causing the diaphragm spring to engage the clutch prematurely.
I personally drive hard and don't do the typical woman thing and shift slowly at only 3000 rpms. This would cause the engine to drop to much in revs and with a car that has less torque and HP at these rpms, would also cause the engine to act like a brake and cause you to "lunge forward".
Being that you've only driven this car for a few hundred miles, try keeping the revs up a little by shifting quickly (I personally don't double clutch) and at higher rpms before your shift.
All in all, the previous owner may have upgraded the clutch to a higher friction, which is causing this...
I don't know...
Just my

97BlackAckCL

iTrader: (6)

Sounds like it's still in your gas tank

J.R.

It's hydraulic. From what I have read, it's non adjustable too, with the exception of moving the pedal a bit, but that won't help the sudden engagement. I like it engagement to happen pretty down low. I just wish I had more than a quarter of an inch to play with..... uhhhhh wait a minute...... that didn't sound right....

If I didn't have 209k on the clock already, I would shift at 5 grand every time

I'm trying to be good and not on it too hard. I don't drive it like a grandma though. I usually shift around 3500. My only gripe is with the lack of power in first gear, taking off up to 2500 rpm's. I bet I won't be happy untill I get a light flywheel and replace the clutch. Just trying to do everything else before it comes to that.

TexasHonda

I think your car is probably OK. My daughter has a 2.2L, 5 sp CL. The clutch works fine but because of the lack of low end torque, startup requires good clutch procedure to get a smooth start. Even after some experience it's hard to be smooth every time. I told her to be minimize slip, but you have to rev a bit before engaging the clutch or it will simply die, requiring clutch release to avoid kiling the engine. I find the performance quite acceptable except on take-off. I don't think there is anyway to fix this fundamental problem.

Your clutch appears to be too sensitive. Not sure why unless someone did substitute a performance clutch and pressure plate.

good luck

TexasHonda

A hydraulic clutch moves the clutch fork a fixed distance every time (if it's working correctly). I would check to be sure the clutch slave cylinder is correctly engaged to the fork and is fully stroking each time. Perhaps the clutch is not fully releasing leading to quick release near the bottom of the clutch pedal travel.

good luck

J.R.

Thanks TH.

I also find the car adequate in every gear but first really. I have ran the rest of the seafoam gas thru the tank and refilled with fresh 87. I think the seafoam helped some, it just took the rest of the tank to do it's thing. It seems I may have regained a small amount of bottom end torque. Does your daughter's CL seem to have a little powerband at 2500?

I have had my daughter operate the clutch while I watched the Slave. All seems OK there, but I thought I would go ahead and replace it and bleed the system. Are the generic slaves from Autozone OK, or should I spring for an OEM?\

Thanks again for all the replies.
JR

garfieldwithCL

i c

Blazin Si

If you're looking for a sudden boost in power when VTEC engages, you'll likely never find that in a SOHC motor. Even in the B series that typically doesn't happen unless the engagement point is set too high and power starts to fall off the primary lobes and then jumps again when it switches to the secondaries. You want a smooth transition in a properly tuned VTEC motor.

I seafoamed my 5 speed 2.2CL about a month ago and it runs fine. I sucked most of it through the brake booster line and poured about 1/3 of the bottle into the gas tank. It smoked heavily for about 3 minutes while it was sucked into the engine. I never replaced my spark plugs either.

I think the 4 cylinder CL's are a dog from a dead stop. Like mentioned before, the car is heavy (about 3k lbs.) and is powered by a 2.2/2.3 Accord motor. Maybe you expected the car to be more impressive than it is?

agranado

I concur with blazin. The 4 bangers are dogs from a dead stop. I seafoamed recently and noticed that the car ran much smoother. I also changed the plugs and wires around that time as well.

In fact, I'll just stop there. Everything Blazin says pretty much sums up my point. lol

J.R.

Yeah, I know it's not a H22 . I'm convinvced the car performs as good as it can be expected from 2500 up. Vtec is barely noticable most of the time. The main reason that I thought something might be wrong is because of the little boost or powerband at 2500. A friend of mine also has a 97 CL 2.2 with 300,000 miles on it and his seems to pull a little harder down low (below 2500) but it DOES NOT have a sudden powerband at 2500 like mine does. That's why I have been questioning the Intake Air Resonator.

As I understand it, the IAR system opens and closes a valve that exposes the resonator box to the intake tract at certain RPM's. This is supposed to boost midrange torque. The valve has got to be in there for a reason though, otherwise they would just leave the resonator exposed to the intake tract all the time. I thought if it malfunctioned (solenoid failed in either the open or shut position) it could possibly hurt the bottom end a little. It seems fine in midrange and on top. Since mine is showing a hit at 2500, I thought the IAR may be the culprit. I was hoping someone knew how to troubleshoot this system.

I thought about pulling the intake apart to where I could see the solenoid valve, slowly rev the engine and note the RPM's when it closes or openes (if it closes or opens). I believe that the resonator is there for the bottom end torque(valve openduring low RPMs), but it needs to be closed off to maximize the midrange boost. The resonator probably adds drag or turbulence as the or air flow increases. I'm thinking the valve is stuck shut, which would decrease bottom end torque. This sound logical???

Anybody ever mess with the IAR system or has everybody just junked it and went to CAI/SRI? I would like to leave it stock and preserve the system. I believe with a completly stock motor, it needs this system. I'm not knocking anyones choice of intake, I just don't think I will benefit from a high flow intake without a header or catback system.

I should have a helms Manual sometime this week, (got it from Acurazine brother labelhunter) maybe it will have some info on the IAR system. I figure the Helms is a good investment, you have to be ready to do a little work on a car with 209k. She runs and drives really excellent for her mileage already. I'm just trying to bring her back to 100%. I believe she will go 300k

Once again... SORRY for the long post! Just trying to make myself as clear as I can!

Thanks guys.

J.R.

and Damn Blazin' - your avitar's hypnotic! I can't quit watchin it!

Is that you or your GF?

Sorry if that's your GF dude, but Son of aaaaa.......

That's Smokin'!!!!

J.R.

5-speed

^not his gf. people have mentioned her name before, but i forgot what it is.
anyway, i doubt the IAR will affect performance enough for you to feel it. I know what youre talking about though with the little boost at ~2500 rpm, im pretty sure its just the nature of the engine. it is more noticable the more throttle that youre giving it when it hits 2500 rpm. drive around at 20% throttle and see if you notice it then.

then again, i ripped my iar out when i installed my intake.

J.R.

Thanks for your input 5-speed. The hit is more noticeable with more throttle just as you said.

Blazin Si

LOL, no it's not my g/f... I wish it were!

Her name is Kato Rosa, search it on youtube.com, they have a few Japanese commercials with her in it. She's 50% Italian 50% Japanese and 100% smokin' hot!

Every time I see her I get this feeling deep down in my pants...