docboy

150hp is atrociously small for a non hybrid, and the exterior dimension is just too close to that of the 201hp TSX. These 2 models are killing each other in sales. Rumors suggest the TSX and TL will give away to the TLX, so for all we know the ILX and TSX may be just a test for the market.

But... take the Lexus CT200H for example. A ridiculously small car, rather expensive, nonexistent power... but Lexus advertises it as a sporty hybrid hatch. And it seems to be selling well. Why? Focused on a niche market.

IMHO, the ILX and TSX can be in the market together, but Acura should offer the ILX as ONLY a hybrid, and preferably a hatch like the CT200H.

KeithL

I have read a few folks on the A6 forum complaining of the car hesitating as it hunts for gears. Some M owners have complained similarly, I have not had that problem except when coming to a stop if I punch it on occasion it will hesitate (not a good feeling when punching it for a reason) as the car figures out what to do.

I thought I read that GM is working on a 10 speed, but it will have logic to allow it to skip gears as needed.

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

Are there any issue with the 8-speed auto boxes on the Lexus and Hyundai sedans ?

RosieQ

I may be a little different from most of the performance enthusiasts who are so active on this thread- but I really hope that the new TLX focuses on 1) Aesthetics 2) Driving dynamics 3) Fuel economy. I live in a big city and spend most of my driving time between stoplights and almost never get the chance to punch the accelerator. That doesn't mean I don't want a little zip in a car, as well as one that is exciting and beautiful. In particular, I think that there is a huge gap in the entry level luxury market that can potentially be filled by hybrids. And I'm not talking about the 30MPG RLX performance focused hybrid system but something more in line with the 40mpg combined Lexus ES Hybrid that was just announced this year. It's a huge market that targets so many people in cities and would be perfect for Acura. I'm thinking of something based on the really exciting new Accord tech with 49/45/47 MPG promises. Plug that into a non-anemic engine such as the existing 189HP Accord 4 cylinder and you have a car that would be surprisingly quick, a bit faster than the upcoming Accord Hybrid with a downsized hybrid gas engine for product differentiation, and likely a car that can still get a fuel economy well into the low 40s. Couple that with an entry level performance 4 cylinder all gas TLX to take over for some of the TSX market segment, and then a second tier of 6cyl TLX with the 300+ HP range with a hybrid version there that is focused on performance similar to the RLX system, GS 450h etc.

Going hybrid just seems so comfortable and practical. It takes the weakness of a gas engine (city driving) and makes it a hybrid's greatest strength in terms of fuel economy. When practical meets economical (ie you actually might get a feasible cost savings by purchasing a hybrid a la Prius rather than a BMW fashion statement on their weak hybrid offerings) and combines with something that is actually exciting to drive and beautiful (Prius is not beautiful, the Leaf, Volt etc are all totally ugly) then I think Acura will have a real winner.

Thoughts? I haven't heard anything about a 45mpg TLX option but would be most interested!

KeithL

I read a while back that there is supposed to be a hybrid TLX, seeing as Lexus is there now with the ES, Audi is coming with an A6, BMW is there and even the M35h and the new Q50. I think Acura would be better served with a 30-35MPG hybrid that still has reasonable performance, similar to where the Q50 is going. I am actually impressed with the 14 MDX MPG numbers so I have hope that a TLX AWD might pull 20/28/22 and the base TLX should be able to do 21/32/23. These are unheard of V6 numbers a decade ago.

RosieQ

I think that this is certainly a societal turning point where fuel efficiency is starting to take a front seat and all the major manufacturers are getting into the game in full force. I just had to babysit my friend's Range Rover HSE which netted an abysmal 10.4 mpg for me over San Francisco's hilly landscape. Total cost of fuel isn't really the issue. I find that I'm much more value sensitive than price sensitive, and when there are good options available that keep performance the same, or even increase it while lowering costs and being more environmentally friendly then it seems like a no brainer. I agree that the 30-35mpg TLX hybrid would be a good range to hit, though the ?2005 V6 accord hybrid in that range totally tanked, possibly another era with different consumer sentiment but also possibly not hitting the optimal balance between efficiency and performance. Either way, the best way to cover their market would seem to be for Acura to deliver two models- a more fuel economy centered 40+mpg model with a 4cyl engine, and then another 30-35mpg version based off the 6cyl.

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

The US CAFE requirement is what drives all these auto makers to churn out fuel efficient automobiles.

JM2010 SH-AWD

I know some people with '13 V6 Accords (which is ridiculously quick for a mainstream family car) are getting some lofty mpg numbers that, as mentioned above, were inconceivable for a V6 a few years ago. And Honda seems to have found a way to make the cylinder deactivation pretty seamless. But still, I'm not sure a sport sedan is the place for cylinder deactivation.

OTOH, I don't think the Lexus and Infiniti hybrid sedans have been very successful from a sales standpoint, although there is no denying the engineering prowess behind them or the mpg/performance numbers they offer. Some of it is no doubt the extra up front cost associated with the hybrid setup.

All that said, I expect we will see a hybrid variant of the 5G TLX.

KeithL

The Accord V6 hybrid was a mistake, people in that class of car want a hybrid with good MPG.

KeithL

I know it is rare to see a dealer with a M35h, but I think that is the future, having big gas guzzling V8 is not the future. A hybrid is a way to get a good performance kick because of the low end immediate torque and get better MPG as a bonus.

Edward'TLS

Agree.

Buyers buy economy brand hybrids for more fuel economy, and buy premium brand hybrids for more performance.

The V6 motor in the Accord V6 hybrid already defected the purpose of excellent fuel economy in the 1st place. A 4-cylinder hybrid is more suitable in this case.

BEAR-AvHistory

Saw my first ILX on the road in the pick-up line today. Hard to tell the difference between it an any other small Asian car. Why not a Honda Accord EX V6 instead?

TL Dawg

I'm changing my name from "TL Dawg" to "BMW M4 Gran Coupe.............Dawg!

BEAR-AvHistory

Don't expect a screen name change but do expect as of right now either an M4 Coupe or StingRay Convert to be in the driveway in 2014.

George Knighton

I dunno.

But it seems encouraging to me, considering that the base J Motor with the direct injection head is already 310 HP.

The electric motor SH-AWD predictions are coming in at 360 HP to 420 HP, and it'd be incredible if they offered the electric AWD enhancement to an Accord-sized sedan with sporty driving potential.

Having a great time with my 305 HP SH-AWD 6-6, so even if the published HP isn't a huge improvement, I might still be interested.

I liked the idea of the RLX AWD...but as the details develop I'm no longer sure.

I might wait for this new TLX.

deepen03

so true.

weather

So anyone care to take a stab at when we'll start seeing camo TLX? I am thinking late August or early Sept (Aug 20-Sept 10 window).....I know its a crap shoot but it will be funny if I am right. Also, a member here posted somewhere that he lives near the Ohio plant and that he heard that the TLX will be out next fall only as a 2015 (unlike our prediction it will be a spring release as a 2015 MY. Are you guys still confident we'll see a spring/early summer release? A car released in the fall is no good for me...I want it for the summer as I don't drive my cars in the winter.

George Knighton

Get to know people who work at Mid Ohio. :-) It'll hit the track before it hits the roads.

weather

^^ I wish I could....I am so itchy to get the details on the elusive TLX. I know the overall styling cues it will get, it will still be an Acura with similar look as the RLX, ILX and RDX (as far as interior, grill etc) but the differences are in the details. I prefer the interior execution of the ILX than the RLX as far as the center stack is concerned. The RLX seems more like the RDX but the ILX has no discontinuity in its center stack area.

In addition, what Honda/Acura does with wheels and accessories (bodykit etc) will make a huge difference. I think the RLX would look so much better if equipped with better wheels. I have seen some photoshops of the RLX with different wheels (the ILX wheels actually) and what a difference it made.

g37guy01

what do you do? walk in the winter?

weather

^^ I take a cab.....*lol* Just kidding...actually, I should have said I don't drive my Acura vehicles in the winter....the TL and RDX stay parked unless the roads are super dry and clean. Otherwise, the little Accent does the heavy lifting

docboy

In my neck of the woods during the winters when it snows, due to abundant hills and slopes, some people do actually only WALK in the winter and will not drive.

Bruce_Wayne

Well, judging by the cyclicality of the cars... the TLX should be released sometime in the fall this year with production starting in October and sales starting in September. But that seems unlikely as we haven't seen any spy shots or concepts or news at all from Acura/Honda.

As far as styling goes, I really hope it's not like the RLX at all. I just saw the RLX in person at a dealership and I have no hesitation it did not feel like the $60k sticker price inside or outside. I sat in the driver seat and asked myself, does this feel (at all) like a $60k car? My answer is a resounding 'No.'

I don't see many people buying the RLX, especially at $60k. All in all, I'd call the RLX another flop and will not help Acura in terms of sales or perception. I don't know if it will "hurt" Acura, but I don't see it changing much at all as far as consumers and perception go. Truth be told, the release of the RLX probably went largely unnoticed by consumers. And if the commercial they released featuring the RLX actually did make any potential customers go check it out... I am guessing they were sorely disappointed. I'm not saying the RLX is not worth $60k as far as all the engineering and technological advances go (self-driving, p-aws, etc.)... but I don't think people can SEE the value visually and aesthetically and that will hurt sales.

The RLX is incredibly bland and conservative and safe and ordinary. It, in no way, to me, looks like a $50-$60K car... inside or out. It does not look a car in 2013. Its body looks like it is from the early 2000's. If I were spending that kind of money, I would not consider the RLX just based on how it looks alone. Jewel eyes? Please. The whole car legitimately looks tailored for retired people.

I sincerely hope the TLX is more aggressive, takes a bit more design risk, and looks vastly different than the RLX. If it is going to look like a baby brother to the RLX, I fear they will miss the mark. For Acura to succeed, not only for the TLX, but for the future of the company... all their cars need to start taking styling cues from the NSX. Period. I find nothing wrong with Acura's current design language (look at the NSX)... BUT they need to go all in on it just like they did with the NSX. To me, their designs are such watered down versions of the design language itself. Did everyone love the 4G? No, but I did. I love the 2009-2011 models. The beak was too pronounced and the satin chrome finish didn't help. If they had factory finished it to match the cars (like many of us 4G'ers have done)... the car would have done much better I think. Toning it down to the shield just mutes the whole car in my opinion. If this is their design language.. STICK with it or change it entirely.

Right now, Keen Edge Dynamic, well... it's a barely a distinguishable design language at all. Their entire lineup looks like some generic japanese manufacturer. Nissan seems to have the most distinguishable design language out of the japanese cars. Go all in. Take a risk. Keen Edge Dynamic mixed with conservative, toned down style IS NOT doing it. Even just being different will make sales. A lot of people hate the hourglass grill on the new Lexus, but it's different. They are owning up to it. They have stuck it on all their cars. It is THEIRS. Acura needs to do the same. Make it fresh, make it modern. The Grill SHOULD BE like the NSX. Whatever design language a company goes with... needs to be THEIRS. You should be able, JUST BY LOOKING AT THE CAR, who the maker is. People can easily do that with Cadillac, Lexus, Audi, Mercedes, BMW, Infiniti to varying degrees. But Acuras just look like good looking, but generic cars.

If the RLX is a sign of the TLX to come... I'll be sorely disappointed.

weather

^^ You made some good points in your posts. The one I have to comment is on the Lexus grill...I agree that they used the hour glass and some like it and some hate it. Acura did a similar thing with the shield....They also put it on all their vehicles as well so they can't be accused of not doing that. The problem is that it was poorly received and maybe a bit too much as first and once the opinion on the shield was made, it was hard to remove that negative stigma associated with it.

I do agree with you though...if the TLX is a baby RLX, it will be sad indeed because for me, the flagship can be conservative by the brand still need a bold/aggressive design in its line up and that is the TLX's job. In the TOV website, a frequent poster, and one associated with Acura (either as a dealer or an employee of Acura itself) has been posting some fairly accurate comments through the years and he recently said that the TLX will NOT be a baby RLX and that will will be pleasantly surprised, visually and under the accelerator too. Something to keep me hoping anyway....

docboy

Here's hoping the TLX's front end will take cues from the 2015 NSX. If so, there's is hope for the TLX.

If it ends up being a mini-RLX, I'm probably driving in my last Acura (sedan at least).

KeithL

Not sure that would be true, I believe Acura has pretty much made it known there will be a 14 of the 4G thus seeing a TLX this fall is pretty much not going to happen. I think with RLX and MDX roll out they have their hands full. True they have rooled out that many cars in the past, but I think the TLX needs to be a home run and they are fine tuning everything to be safe. If you look back to the 4G the press release was in July 2008 and the spy shots starting surfacing before the press release. The SH-AWD did not go on sale until November if I recall and it was a rare breed then. I truly think the 5G TLX is March next year on sale with it getting shown at the November Car show in LA.

weather

^^ I like the way you think.....

KeithL

I think the TLX will be somewhere in between the RLX conservative and far from NSX sporty. I actually don't even think an SH-AWD TLX would be as firm as the current TL AWD. That is why I ave been tempted to jump on 13 TL AWD Adavance, because I think the sportiness will be substantially softened. I don't think they want to compete with the IS F Sport or the Q50 Sport or even the CTS.

weather

I think Conrad had mentioned something about the TLX going against the Elantra... *lol* (just kidding of course)

All kidding aside, I do hope that Acura doesn't drop the ball on such an important vehicle as the TLX but I agree, it seems they don't have the drive (no pun intended) to put out exciting vehicles that raises the passion level and excitement. We'll see...we should start seeing some things later this calendar year.

KeithL

I am so close to pulling trigger on a TL AWD, this would be a no brainer if the TLX were out soon. My problem is I have been cross shopping an A6 and even though substantially more expensive it is a sweet ride, just not sure I want to deal with potential German gremlins ;-)

weather

^^ I think you hit the key word there....Potential. There are always the "what if" but at the same time, it may turn out to be problem free. I know some who have had no problems with their Audi's and you are correct, they are so sexy and handle so well. It is alot to give up simply based on something that MAY happen. If you can afford it and its not leaving you very strap for cash, why not try a lease....if you get the gremlins, you still don't own it. It will be a lesson in life....I am leaning quite heavily that way next spring. IF the TLX is nice looking, I will get that one for sure as for me, the esthetics is more important than the gadgets....however, if they botch the styling, Audi will likely be my next one. I had thought about the Q50 but now decided to scratch that one off my list....the BMW 4 series may make the shortlist when I see it, and so will the IS 350 (with some accessories like a body kit)...otherwise, an S4 will be the winner. The reason I have the Lexus and BMW still on my short list is I need to see them in person...Right now, the S4 is the only one I know for sure I love styling wise.

KeithL

Leasing sucks now in Georgia, they changed the ad valorem taxes here this year and you wind up paying the full tax load up front, in the past you only paid taxes on the part of the depreciated cap cost. On the A6 it is like paying and around extra $1800+ on a typical 3 year lease. I decided to go back to buying. Also trying to determine how much I want to keep feeding my car habit. I need auto rehab ;-)

weather

^^ LMAO...If you get a good therapist, let me know. I have that disease too, although it subsides after mid June...

Bruce_Wayne

I know, I was saying it's supposed to come out this fall, but for whatever reasons, I doubt it will and I think we can be pretty sure that it won't... Which is a shame. I read, thanks to another poster, that there is/might be a Special Edition version for the 2014 TL??? It was on a honda website a few pages back...

Yes, I agree that it won't be nearly as sporty as the NSX, and I would probably argue that it shouldn't be. But I would argue that they SHOULD take the same styling cues from it when designing the TLX. I can't imagine how many they would sell if they made a 4 door sports luxury sedan in a toned down version of the NSX and called it the TLX. Who here wouldn't buy one? They certainly could keep the profile lines... Keep the mid cross line running across to the top of the front wheel. Have the top profile line run parallel and over the front wheel arch and running directly into the beginning (end) of the headlights. Those lines are incredible. Incredibly conceived. THAT, I hope, is the definition Acura will use for "keen edge dynamic." Obviously they'd have to tone down the front and rear bumpers the most. Lose the scoops, do a more traditional bumper, but the lines they need to keep or play off of. They would sell a ridiculous amount of TLX i think.



Agreed that some like it and some hate it. And to an extent, yes Acura has done something similar with the shield. But the shield is honestly not all that. It's pretty bland and boring in my opinion. The shield looks like it is just placed somewhere at the end of the hood and in between the headlights. It does NOT look tied INTO the lines of the car on ANY model, imo. They also have NOT been consistent AT ALL with it, which ruins the identity it should have created. Take a look. I've included a painted 4G front grill... and imho, if acura had done that to begin with, the "power plenum grill" would have still sold. Either painted the whole grill or just color matched the middle insert. Either way, I think the 4G TL would have been okay. I personally don't like the current grills on any of the acuras.

Edward'TLS

For god's sake, don't use this grille design for Acura products.

This U-shaped chrome underchin grille is the Honda signature grille, as used lately on the Accord's and the Civic's.

Honda has been working so hard trying to differentiate the premium Acura products from the economy Honda products, don't let this Honda grille design ruin it all for the Acura brand.

Bruce_Wayne

True... But I think this is partly my mistake for attaching what looks to be a concept image still.

The actual concept car has a shield a bit different than on paper:



And that grill is significantly not as 'U' shaped as the honda ones. I'm not sure that makes a difference to you... Though I think it is different enough to cause that separation Acura needs/is looking for. You might disagree...

The two parts on the end of the shield angle up in the same lines as the hood... which is why I assume they did it. Otherwise they would have just been better making the shield angled horizontally instead of angling up into the hood. Either way, I really, really like this "Shield" out of the Keen Edge Dynamic language. And I do believe and consider it to be a potential seller. I love how it plays off the headlights and hood.

It is very different than the mesh grills we see from Audi and Lexus and all the stretched octogon grills from the new Ford Fusion to the Toyota Avalon to the Hyundai Veloster.

Also those Jewel Eyes are immensely better design-wise than the ones on the RLX (which I think are bug eyed looking and kind of ugly TBH). NO ONE is doing headlights like this (granted no one is doing the ones like on the RLX either). It could steal a lot of customers away because they look incredible are are so.... different. They could steal customers and keep current ones in the same way the Audi LED headlight strips caught on a few years ago. I'll admit, those headlights were so beautiful and different at the time, I would have considered an Audi JUST for those headlights at the time (they are obviously good cars beyond that as well). Now EVERYONE is doing LED strips. Even the new Honda Accord. I want to believe and think a lot of people want those headlights on the NSX.

I know what some might be thinking... Dude, they're not going to put their HALO car's features on their everyday vehicles. BUT THEY SHOULD. They can't keep ALL the best looking features for the NSX because VERY FEW PEOPLE CAN AFFORD IT. Putting that kind of shield and headlights on their cars will immediately gain them a market identity. IMMEDIATELY. The more cars with those headlights, the more people will recognize Acura. How could they not!? Loook at those headlights. My God.

You can see they kept the 5-Point shield with the a horizontal/middle insert (as seen on Acura's current grills)... but the 5-point shield interpretation looks VASTLY different on the NSX. I've changed it for comparison's sake:

SSFTSX

Current Accord Euro will continue to be built untill the end of 2014. Honda may want to combine TLX and Accord Euro.

Rocket_man

That is going to make me wait longer than I want. My current short list is...

1) IS250, but I just learned a new 4 cyl turbo will be on the 2014 car. I may wait for this.
2) Q50, but no ventilated seats which I can get on the IS without a ton of options.

Recently removed from my short list is the new 3-series. We drove one a few weeks ago and the seats were crap. I just could not get comfortable and there were practically no side bolsters. I was all over the place. Liked the new N20 engine though. Drove a new 535 and those seats were awesome. Scratch the 3-series.

There will be a few more new cars to add to the TLX competition before it comes out. Acura better hit the mark with the TLX.

You can find more information on Big Foot than the TLX. I think the secrecy is overall bad for Acura. Infinity had a Q50 web site up with lots of details months before production began. Acura should learn how to use advertising to increase desire for their cars. Instead they develop it in secret. Put it in the dealership and a month later have an ad on TV. Old school.

When you see the new Lexus grill in person it looks nice. I've seen the new IS in person and I like it. It is more extreme (I think) than the offensive version of 'the beak' but it looks okay. I'm not sure I can understand why, very subjective I guess.

KeithL

I am not interested in the Q50 as I suspect it will have some of the same lesser quality components that the G did. Never felt the G had a nice interior.

jwong77

Have to agree, the Jewel Eyes on the NSX and MDX concepts are much better executed than the ones on the production RLX.