SinCityTLX

I am a red-blooded American and love american V8 horsepower. However you can tell a difference from a car built here as compared to Japan. Compare todays TSX vs. todays TL. The TL is not as tight of a car, nor is it as smooth....Dont know why.

I hope the new TLX is smooth and quiet and tight.More so than todays TL. Thats what makes Lexus so appealing is they are tight as a drum.

KeithL

Sorry to disagree, but my 09 TL AWD was probably one f the tightest bank vault reliable cars I have owned and that was early in the model release when you expect many flaws. The gf's ex-TSX was a great car too, but honestly I could not tell between them which was made in US and which in Japan.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

I dont understand why some people have need to pit auto makers against each other.
sure, its competition.
however, there are enough vehicles and enough auto makers to completely get rid of this old notion of:
because so and so did this, I'm leaving.

fine, leave. dont let the door hit you on your way out!

this cant turn into a productive conversation because of the negative connotation in your first and original post.
come up with some meaningful thoughts, then press post.

slogsr

iTrader: (2)

...... Most Acura's and Hondas built after 2003 were made here in the states. This goes for the TSX from 04 till present. They have been building the engine and trans in Japan and shipping them here. Same goes for the 04 and up TL, built in America. Maybe the "difference" you think you see is them trying different materials and set ups for the different generations of cars.

With that said, most "American" cars aren't even built here. It really is funny hearing people saying "Buy American, and support American industries" when the Foreign companies are building their cars here while the Big three are doing China and Mexico. Makes you think, doesn't it.... I'll look at the numbers but Honda and Toyota employ a good amount of Americans, and may even surpass the big 3 in that number if they already haven't. The foreign car markets demographic over here makes it more economical to build them here.

kurtatx

All TSX's are built in Sayama Japan.

Nope. Almost three times as many Americans were employed by the Detroit 3 versus the Japanese 3 in 2012 [Source].

weather

I am of the opinion that the country of origin has nothing to do with the quality of the vehicles but rather the PEOPLE and the PRIDE of their work does. Usually, and I say usually, the less unions are involved, the more pride and a sense of ownership in the work people have. Don't get me wrong, unions have a purpose but as with anything, the pendulum of the pre union days have swung too far the other side and now we have people making 50$ an hour to put screws into a door panel....come on'

VR1

IDK why but I just feel more comfortable buying a car assembled in Japan/Germany vs. Mexico/US. I remember when I was looking at a CPO E90 328i, it was assembled in South Africa, not sure why but it was a major turn off vs. the ones assembled in Germany.

docboy

+1. Unions have become too powerful and entitled. IMHO.

I didn't realize the 328i was assembled in South Africa. Is this true of all 328i's?

VR1

No only some are. I found E90 328i's assembled in Germany and some in South Africa.

Ken1997TL

I'll strongly disagree with you.

I've owned numerous (as in a dozen) Hondas/Acuras, built in the US, Canada and Japan.

It's far more dependent upon the MODEL of the car and its intended 'purpose' rather than where it was built.

fsttyms1

I dont agree with the naive statement about cars not built here being better. Also, comparing the TL to the TSX isnt tight either, they are 2 different cars, and how "tight" they are has NOTHING to do with build Origin, but has to do with Chassis Design.

My 2000 was built in America. Other than the shit trans (japan built/design) the car was and has been for the most part rock solid for the past 600k miles.

fsttyms1

Actually the 99-03 was built in America as well

atsx1313

well.... acura in general is very reliable... i see many old acuras here... and no problem with my tsx and it's from japan..

IrvineAcura

Hate to bring up old wounds, but the American built Acura (Hondas) are not built to the same tolerances for the vehicles and parts made in Japan. First, I've owned since 1978 an Accord, CRXsi (loved that!), Prelude, Odyssey, Legend, Vigor, TL 2002, TL 2012, so I am a lifetime owner.
When the Ohio plant was being built and negotiated all of the details came out in the press (not the open press).
The "employment and build model" in Japan was that Honda/Acura built all of its key components and thus could marry the tolerances between parts (think doors and frames, radios, everything!). In the US model, parts came from Japan and then also from other US suppliers and even several different US suppliers (mandated US %). To accommodate the variance in the tolerances of all the mfrs. the acceptable tolerance for Hondas and Acuras became much greater. The US parts manufacturers could only meet the tolerances they had been using all along for Detroit. Making them tighter to accept the Japanese standards would greatly increase the cost, if it could be done at all, cause a revamping of the production lines, etc. An example below.
I heard tolerances of .001" in Japan between door and frame (this may be off or .01" or .1", but it is an example of...the tight door slam), and .004+" being requested by the US mfrs. Even if the final tolerance was .002" as I recall, that is DOUBLE what the internal Japan tolerances were and I believe they were greater than that. A thousandth here a thousandth there and it adds up to "slop". When your vehicle must accommodate parts from several outside DIFFERENT manufacturers, each with their own tolerances, you can see where the root of the problem comes from. There was really no solution other than accept a larger tolerance for Honda to build in America, and for the Americans to get better than they were, to be permitted to build Japanese cars. These negotiations were mini-battles and must have driven everyone to battle.

I thus bought my Vigor in 1991 (inline 5 built in Japan 1992 model). That was the tightest car I have owned, even better than the Legend. The windows did not have a frame, but the car was so tight that the windows were sucked outward at high speeds (a deficiency to me with my habits living in Texas at the time), so it was like a vacuum seal once the door was closed.

The same reduction in tolerances were noticed on my Japan built Honda Accord, CXI and Prelude (built in Japan with 4 wheel steering!) comparing with the Odyssey (although completely different cars, so I can't compare, but the issue is exactly the same). US built meant US suppliers and to get vastly increased supply of US made sales, tolerances had to be sacrificed.

I also owned Chevy's, Dodge's and my wife Fords, so the comparison at that time (60s to 80s) with Detroit isn't even describable, it was pathetically different when rattles disappeared upon my first Honda purchase. (however the automatic transmissions were horrid!). I remember some squeaks and rattles in Hondas, but it begged you to find where that darn one noise was coming from. In US cars, it was a relative symphony that actually gave the car a life of its own.

Bottom line, building and controlling the tolerances internally on all parts manufactured and QA is significantly tighter than accepting parts from outside (and multiple) suppliers.

fsttyms1

Where they are built has NOTHING to do with tolerances. That comes from what HONDA wants them to be regardless of WHERE its built.

Nedmundo

Exactly. It's all about the company's engineering, culture, and manufacturing practices, not the location of manufacture. BMW has been building cars (though I believe not powertrains) in South Africa for decades, and very few Bimmerphiles complain about "African" BMW's. And how many complaints do we hear about all the BMW's built in South Carolina? I don't see many, and I bet most BMW buyers have no clue where their cars were built.

slogsr

iTrader: (2)

Got me on the TSX, could of sworn it was here at the same plant the civics and accords came from.

The numbers you posted are from 2012, I would be interested to see how they shift from 2013 and the current year. The big three are looking elsewhere for plants and cheap labor, so I'm sure back in 07 before the slump in 08 those numbers were way more than that. I would expect the numbers the source you linked to drop over the next few years if they already haven't in 2013 and this year. Either way, the big three need to take notes on how the Japanese (and other foreign companies) make their cars. Seems like Ford is the only one to get it right since 2008.

Either way, the TLX being built here Vs. Japan you won't be able to tell the difference. All the materials, clearances, specs, instructions, etc will be the same. This goes standard for the ISO they follow.

hadokenuh

Maybe just my perception, but I prefer Japan built cars than American ones. The Japanese workers put their pride and dedication to the work they do.

The company's standards, tolerances, specs, etc. all play important role in the process but it's the workers who actually carry them out.

Ken1997TL

Ever taken a tour of a Honda factory in the US?

Lots of pride and skill there. Believe me, it completely changed my perspective.

350

iTrader: (4)

I haven't toured a Honda factory but I'd believe it. I talked to a random customer on the phone a while ago from Marysville, OH, I was making small talk and asked if they were near the Honda factory. It was an old lady who went on about how great Honda is for the town and how much they love Honda. You probably don't hear that about the GM plans in that area, I know the plant that they closed in 09 when Trailblazers ended had a bunch of suicides...

I won't knock Japan but I'd much rather have a US built vehicle than a Euro one, I wouldn't turn down Japanese but it's not a selling point for me. Go figure my wife's Chevy is Canadian built...

keith7120

I'm confused, the last V8 I owned was a Japanese car made in America. Infinity M45.

KeithL

I think there is some validity to several points in this thread.

First to the tolerance comment, I think probably when Honda first came to the US they did have issues getting US suppliers to meet the tolerances and quality standards that Honda needed. That was probably due to the fact that american cars in the 70s/80s were crap mostly. So key critical components (general the drive train) were imported and assembled to the car here. Now, roll the clock forward and I think today any American supplier can meet any manufacturer's requirements or they would not be in business as the supply chain is far more global today than it was 20 years ago.

Whatever your opinion of Unions the fact is the imports set up shop in southern states to avoid the "entitlement mentality" of the unions. High wages and low productivity drive up costs and that is what made it easier for the imports to compete early on. As well as the adversarial relationship the US makes and unions had fro many years.

Does region or country factor in? Maybe, if you have a culture of workers that are used to taking pride and ownership in their work like the Japanese have you are more likely to have better overall products. Is the same possible in the US, sure. Refer to my Unions comment. If you have people that show up to work to plod through the day with no pride in their work and no feeling of participation in the process you get sub-standard quality.
I feel the Japanese empowered their employees in the US in a way the US makes did not and thus you have better quality regardless of where made. Now the Unions and US makers (they share some of the blame) started to wake up and realize if they do not work together that they both both crash and burn and now produce good products. Look at Cadillac and Buick that have had great improvement in reliability and quality.

hadokenuh

I'd love to. Is it open to the public?

boe_d

I've had the displeasure of working in a factory with the UAW. Lazy, self-entitled and worthless. They'd much rather sabotage the lubrication vats and cause damage to engine parts so they could get free time then produce anything. Destruction is more enjoyable to them then actually producing a product they could be proud of. If every single bit of the vehicle was built and assembled by robots in the US that would be fine but I'd rather not trust a single component of my vehicle to a UAW employee.

I'd much much rather have a car built in Japan (or just about any other country for that matter).

Ken1997TL

Multiple plants are open, certain days of the week. Just need to call ahead and make a reservation so they can set it up.

By the way, NO cameras or cell phones are allowed. They will check

graphicguy

Toured both the Marysville, OH Honda plant and the Corvette plant in KY. I don't know who has seen UAW workers who weren't proud of their work, but I can say that there weren't any prouder people than I saw at either of the plants...UAW at the Corvette plant, and the non-union workers at the Honda plant. Both loved their jobs, and both groups were careful in performing their jobs.

BTW...my Marysville OH TL was better built than either my BMW 335i or my Audi S4. No squeaks/rattles. Everything works the way it should (that's a big one as I could never get working in th European counterparts).

Acura/Honda knows how to design, make and engineer cars...great cars. And, they've been doing at a very high level, for a very long time, in serveral geographic locales.

KeithL

Not sure I would use the Corvette plant as an example, those folks take pride in those cars they build ;-)

I have toured the BMW plant in SC, amazing tour, I encourage anyone to visit a plant and see what the process and logistics of building a car are, you won;t get in your car again without appreciating the amazing co-ordination and juggling act that goes into the current "Just In Time" manufacturing.

kurtatx

"Well done fat men from Kentucky, this is a masterpiece!"

Legend2TL

In the book "Comeback: The fall and rise of Detroit", they got into this subject. One of the main reasons Toyota partnered with GM to build cars at NUMMI was to learn about GM's vast sub-contractor network. Toyota used that network when they moved into US assembly on their own vehicles. One of the problems they had was poor US plastic manufacturers, these companies would complain back to Toyota that Detroit had no problem with them. Instead of firing them, Toyota worked with them to improve their quality at minimal costs.

Business Week had a article back in the 90's about the sub-contractor network. The article used as a example a single Honda crankshaft used for US production. It showed all the process steps and companies involved. IIRC, it was something like ~6 outside companies did the casting, machining, and processing.

The country of orgin typically does not matter, what really matters is the company and their overall management of the satellite operations. One exception is VW's Brazil operation in the 80's and 90's, which had really poor quality control and ignored process steps often.

350

iTrader: (4)

I'm still an old school GM guy at heart but I'm realistic on the quality, Bowling Green is definitely the exception. If I was building a US econo car and worried about getting laid off cause nobody bought a crappy US econo car, I don't think I'd give a crap either after a while to be honest. I don't think I'd be the Chrysler guys smoking joints and drinking 40's on lunch, but probably be tempting after screwing 1000 pieces of cheap plastic together knowing I'm making a crap product.

fsttyms1

Honda is Non Union


Im sorry but this is extremely close minded. They arent any better built

boe_d

You can believe it is closed minded but there are a lot of ex-McDonalds or BK etc workers who will never eat at those places after they've seen what happens behind the seens. If you ever worked in a UAW shop you might feel the same and might think it is closed minded to assume something if you haven't actually experienced those things yourself.

As far as Honda being non Union - I did not know this and should have checked before assuming that myself.

johnrh

FYI kids - Japanese autoworkers are unionized ...

http://www.autonews.com/article/2014...aring-profits#

another link in case the first one does not work http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...s-profits.html

fsttyms1

Im not saying that the unions are good. IMO Unions NEED to leave this country as fast as Obama does. I am talking about your comment that things in Japan are built better than here. Honda builds here Non Union there by making your comment not hold much water in an argument.

shurik74

+1 ^^^

boe_d

Fair enough but the truth is, I do believe that a Honda built in Japan would be likely to have less issues. I did overstate it when I said I'd rather have one built just about anywhere as I believe a Chinese or Russian made car would be far less well built than a US one. I've worked overseas and once you get a feel for the cultures, you might get the sense that the Japanese strive for perfection in a way we don't as a mass rule have over here. I'm not saying there aren't hard working people over here or that there aren't people that strive for perfection over here but if you took 1000 people at any large factory over here, I don't think you'll find the commitment you would in Japan. If you go to Japan, some factories have anything you've done incorrectly in the break room so that your mistake is on display for your coworkers to see - and that is a source of great shame. They've tried that same technique in China and the employees don't care - because it isn't in their culture to be ashamed about your mistakes or how it hurts the company. A company in the US that built arc welders did have a system that worked pretty well with the US mentality, you built as many components per hour as you could and got paid by the component. Any defective components had to be repaired by you during the time your were supposed to be building new components so you made far less per hour if your products weren't perfect the first time. The inspection process occurred during the repair process so it deducted even more from your pay.

KeithL

Japanese unions are so different than US unions. Some of it is the Japanese culture also.

slogsr

iTrader: (2)

Regardless of what you think the two cultures will do, they still have to meet the ISO standards. If Honda wants to sell in the US they must meet the ISO standards followed in Japan. This ensures that the tolerances, material, instructions, etc are identical. When I worked at Alcoa we had to do the same thing. As an Engineer I had to ensure that my process in Hampton mimicked the one set from Deer Park. The only way I could break that is if I found a way to make my castings better. That is the point of ISO.

fsttyms1

That is not up to the people building it or where its built, it is up to the specs the manufacturer specifies and and the specs they have to follow to meet regulations.

hadokenuh

Meeting the standards is one thing. Exceeding them is another thing.