lltfly

Hi, All
I am a 4g TL owner. But suddenly curious, Why Honda/Acura uses their own 8 speed dual clutch transmission on v6 tlx but using ZF 9 speed. I do not think f 9 speed is better than 8 speed. Meanwhile, more gears is not even better than right number of gears.

weather

This has been explained several times in previous thread but in a few words, the 8 speed dual clutch can't handle the torque of the V6.

dezymond

this.

AZuser

Que?

BEAR-AvHistory

The more gears you put in the better/quicker the controlling software needs to be. If the software is not efficient & quick you get gear hunting & hesitation on automatic up/down shifts.

Right now the sweet spot is the 7DCT & 8ZF.

BC01191980

Interesting the a4 is using the 7 dct and 328i uses 8 zf

Stew4HD

And to think they are looking towards a 10 spd.

lltfly

I do not think v6 tlx has that much toque which is 267 to break down the 8 speed DCT.
Same, Honda should not only be able to build a 8 speed DCT to hold 4 cylinder car.
I heard from somewhere I forgot that it is because the size of 8 speed DCT is too big to be put into a v6 TLX.

BEAR-AvHistory

They are already out in some trucks. That said all the heavy hitter performance cars, Lamborghini, Porsche, Ferrari, Audi are using 7DCT & 8ZF.

My 335is semi performance car was a 7DCT ran a best of 12.1/116mph at Rockingham.

BC01191980

I think acura should refine the 8 speed and put in all their vehicles

Maybe create a nice turbo engine to go with it also

Saintor

*And the S4 will use the ZF8.*

h_dawg

Acura doesn't use the dual clutch 8 speed in the V6 because there it not enough room for it to mount. The ZF 9 speed is mounted transversely and is a compact unit, so that's why they use this instead of the dual clutch

weather

...so you if you had the answer, why start a new thread? (just teasing)

lltfly

I am not sure that is the real reason to make Acura to choose zf9 for v6 tlx.

Just want to hear the opinion and better answer

hadokenuh

Because it's ... uhm .. Honda. They do weird things.

5 speed for 10 years, then 6 speed for a couple of years, then all of the sudden, 8, 9, 10 speed within 2, 3 years.

Heck the Toyota Corolla still uses the 4 speed ) Whatever works for them I guess.

weather

I wish I had the full answer....I think only Acura does but I suspect that they had no choice otherwise, why not use their own 8 speed tranny.

THey couldn't afford to stick with a 6 speed other they would have been bashed for using such an archaic transmission (as they do with Toyota and the 4 speed)....Just too bad that out of all of the transmission they could have used, why the ZF 9 speed unit? Heck, the ZF 8 speed would have been better.

I have read and heard that the ZF unit is a stop-gap measure until their 10 speed unit is read and I am fairly certain that at the MMC, we'll see the new tranny - and if not by MMC, for sure by FMC.

For the record, and I can be quoted on this.....I would have been happy with 6 speed on a TLX. I just don't see the need to have 8, 9, 10 speed....serious, these are not 18 wheelers.

lltfly

Right, 9 speed looks weird which has too many gears so that it always is thinking about which gear is the best fit for now.
4G TL's 6 speed is a good tranny except toque converter issue potentially. other than that it is a good gearbox. 60mph, rpm is at 1500+ which is very good. and it it quick.

ZF8 is the best one I drove. But for honda's 8 speed. it is really odd. Honda spent money on 8 speed only for 4 cylinder car? Actually, Honda doesnt have many engine options for his luxury brand. no v8. v6 will be the biggest engine on acura. It doesnt make any sense to me that Honda did not take into account the size when buiding 8 dct to fit to v6. Accord is using CVT. only tlx l4 and ilx has 8 dct. tons of money spent on 8 dct which only for two models?

BC01191980

It seems BMW is happy with 8 speed it's in almost all their vehicles.

MB is weird that they put 9 speed in glc and 7 speed in other cars. I guess 3 pointed star and odd speed transmissions are an odd number theme.

youngTL

For the record, I absolutely love the spread in ratios. I think 8+ speeds are a good idea, but they rushed out the ZF9 and the initial implementation was poor. And even still, the design takes some time to shift through the dog gears. But it sure as hell saves gas (I got 40 MPG on a recent trip with my SH-AWD on the highway, verified by filling up with odometer reading).

Acura couldn't use the ZF 8 speed because it's for longitudinal RWD applications.

And I think Acura's 7DCT only works with hybrid powertrains. I think they caught themselves out on this one, designed the car before the transmission was ready and it wouldn't fit, so they had to go to ZF or use an archaic 6-speed. I actually trust the durability of the ZF9 more than I do Acura's 6-speed auto. They tend to do poor designs for traditional automatics (their DCT is fantastic). The 1-gear shift speed on the ZF9 is actually really fast (to shift up or down 1 gear). I think people mostly have a problem with the reluctance to downshift when you hit the gas, and the wait time on shifts that go through gears 8 and 5. The first issue is software, the second is hardware.

Saintor

PRICE vs torque capacity, and a borderline decision.

The ZF9 is not a direct modern ZF8 descendant, but an evolution of the ZF6 (6HP19) adapted to front-driversm produced almost 10 years ago on read-drivers that had great reputation, despite a few leaks.

I don't understand why the 4-cyl got a special transmission, though.... I don't see the point of DCTs, specially on 4-cyl.

youngTL

The DCT has less parasitic drivetrain loss, which for a 4-cylinder is more important. Also it makes the car more fun than a regular automatic. I really liked the I4 TLX, except I wished for more power and SH-AWD.

mapleloaf

The 8 DCT is an excellent pairing with the 2.4 TLX and the ILX. I like lots of things about my 2015 3.5 SH-AWD, but the transmission at the lower end has some quirks, which for the most part have been eliminated from the 16 model. However, I really don't need more than the 2.4 power and i love the tranny, so will switch when the numbers make sense.

youngTL

You might sorely miss SH-AWD. That for me was a major tipping point.

aggybong

Straight DCT would have less parasitic drivetrain loss, but is that still true when they threw in a torque converter as well?

I have been hunting around for a dyno of the 2.4 TLX, but I haven't found one yet to see what it's putting down to the wheels.

BEAR-AvHistory

Another spun section equals more drag. How much more is the key vs their objective of smoothing out the DCT's start from stop.


Personally never had any problem with my 7DCT from that point.

mapleloaf

I will miss it no doubt, along with the extra power and smoothness of the 3.5, but I think on balance I will be even happier with the 8 speed. And don't get me wrong…I still enjoy my current car and will only make the move if it also make financial sense. If I did more highway driving, I suspect I would stay put.

youngTL

It would, but the torque converter on the Acura 8DCT locks up fairly fast. As far as I know, it's only used for basically first gear, and maybe unlocks during a shift. But that's still locked up far more often than a conventional auto. As a side note, the ZF9 seems to lock up quickly as well.

lltfly

I am looking forward to seeing Honda put 8DCT on 10 gen accord. cvt sucks. previous generation Nissan Maxima looks great and engine is great which is vq35. But it was paired with cvt~~~~.

If middle term for tlx would have double wishbone, I will significantly consider about getting one. 2016 tlx looks good with jewelry headlight. But the 2012-2014 TL has more unique rear end and stronger front fender which looks gorgeous.

h_dawg

I agree, I trust the durability of the ZF9 speed more than I do of Honda/Acura automatic transmissions. Honda/Acura built automatics have definitely been hit or miss the last several years. I think I would rather have a transmission that lasts a long time even if a couple of the shifts aren't as smooth as I would like. But yes, the 9 speed rough shifts can be kind of annoying and I have contemplated switching to a Lexus, but I don't know if the price difference is worth it to me.

It will be interesting to see the long term durability of the Honda/Acura DCT and the ZF9 speed

mrgold35

Does the ZF9 trans issues feel the same, better, or worse comparing the fwd and sh-awd TLX versions?

youngTL

SH-AWD and FWD are the same for the 2015, although Acura Canada axed FWD V6's for 2016 so I can't go try one of those.

I have a 2016 SH-AWD, and the 2016 transmission is much better behaved than the 2015. No 2-3 shift bump at all and it seems faster to upshift as well.

mrgold35

I've started the process of looking for another vehicle to add to the stable and narrowed it down to TLX or RDX with AWP. Still planning to keep my current 11 MDX, 08 RDX, and 06 TSX. I wasn't sure if sh-awd in the TLX would lessen the effects of the transmission harsh shifts since the tq is split between all 4 wheels and having more drivetrain loss. Sounds like it doesn't matter, the 9-speed is hit-or-miss in the 15 TLX.

I'm a little surprised Acura isn't offering the fix under warranty or TSB since the +16 TLX has it?

youngTL

Some lucky '15 owners have had their tranny replaced with the '16 model or something close (all I know is there was something physically changed about the transmission between the early build '15's and the '16's or late build '15's). Other owners have gotten the run-around.


I'd say if you're ordering from the factory, the '16 is a safe bet, but if you're thinking of getting a '15, don't do it blind. Test drive the hell out of it. Look at the thread about it on here to see under what conditions the 2-3 shift bump happens. If it's not happening, then it's fine. But drive it for a couple of good long drives first. The '16 seems to have better throttle response too.