Originally Posted by George Knighton

Sales-wise, overall, the RDX changes have worked for them.

It looks like people who'd shop for an RDX-type of vehicle are less interested in handling and more interested in safety and reliability.

Originally Posted by George Knighton

Marketing. What can you do.

All in all, though, very encouraging so far. :-)

Originally Posted by rockyfeller

I've also said in past threads the 6MT is dead at Acura. DCTs are the present technology and offering a manual is like going backwards according to this company's direction. I think it's sad that BMW seems to be the only one committed to offering them. I don't expect that to stick around too long either, that is one company that has been getting soft lately too.

Originally Posted by winstrolvtec

Some specs likely do leave more to be desired especially in comparison to the previous model and the RLX but I'm not going to underestimate the weight savings and new transmissions roles in increased performance because that's what allowed the engine to scale back in the first place and in the name of fuel economy which is good too. If you can compete or do as well with less power on paper, it changes very little except from a marketing perspective, which is where the problem and disappointment really lies IMO.

Truthfully, a little disappointed not to see a more sport dedicated trim and Acura not side with a little extra performance in the 310 hp variant but honestly there is still a lot to be happy about and that shouldn't take away from the rest. Naturally we have to reserve some judgement until after release and testing but they should be hands down better performers than outgoing TL models all around and the extra refinements, improvements and features (and mpg) sound very promising.

Acura has stated a few times that they want this TLX to be considered in the mid level neighborhood with cars like the 5 series and E class, etc, along with the RLX as well, one high and one low in that category as well as against the normal compacts in the price and luxury range I would assume. Hopefully, they can get a bit more consideration for the TLX in that respect compared to the last gen and an AWD ILX with some additional refinements and features will help that, almost like Caddy did the with CTS and ATS and how they position the CTS and XTS now as a result. Probably need another gen for the ILX but better and maybe true compact competitor with coupe variant seems to be the likely direction as a result of these changes.

Originally Posted by CoquiTSX

Funny you said that. Last weekend I was @ Costco getting new tires, and one of the employees told two different customers that using the "Fix a whatever" tire sprays voids the manufacturers warranty.

Originally Posted by 012TL-GLM

Stupid, stupid, stupid

Less than 300hp???? That is the killing blow. Sure some of the new features are nice, but 300hp is the benchmark for this class. Acura was already at the bottom with only 305 advertised. Going backwards is not going to win them any fans. Guess Lexus will be my next route...

Originally Posted by 012TL-GLM

Stupid, stupid, stupid

Less than 300hp???? That is the killing blow. Sure some of the new features are nice, but 300hp is the benchmark for this class. Acura was already at the bottom with only 305 advertised. Going backwards is not going to win them any fans. Guess Lexus will be my next route...

Originally Posted by TeamAcura

Actually Audi makes some darn good AWD 6MT cars. So BMW is not the only one. I prefer Audi's Quattro AWD over BMW's xDrive any day MT or AT. And I do not believe 6MT is dead just yet for Acura. I want to give at least another year or two for the TLX to offically call it dead. Something tells me though they will offer it down the road if history repeats itself. Honda/Acura makes one of the best/most engaging MTs out there. And although a very small market, they know they are the only few who offers AWD mated with 6MT right now still. Even the 2014 4G is still offered in a 6MT. IMO, they would of canned it by now if it was really dead.

Originally Posted by H_CAR

A 300hp Lexus IS will still be slower than a 290hp TLX.

The 2014 IS really isn't that fast. It's about as quick as an Accord V6.

Originally Posted by 012TL-GLM

You're basing this on what fact? We have yet to see any true numbers on the TLX. What we were just told is the TLX V6 is under 300hp - that is a deal breaker for myself and many others. Even if it is a little quicker than the outgoing model due to transmission and weight reduction the hp buyers won't even look at it because of the numbers. Its a bad move by Acura, and I'm sure they did it because of the RLX.

Originally Posted by 012TL-GLM

You're basing this on what fact? We have yet to see any true numbers on the TLX. What we were just told is the TLX V6 is under 300hp - that is a deal breaker for myself and many others. Even if it is a little quicker than the outgoing model due to transmission and weight reduction the hp buyers won't even look at it because of the numbers. Its a bad move by Acura, and I'm sure they did it because of the RLX.

Originally Posted by H_CAR

Why is that a deal breaker?

In 2008, the TL had 258hp and in 2009 it was upgraded to 280hp. The 2009 TL was slower than the 2008 despite the increase in power. In 2012 the Accord had 190hp and in 2013 it was "downgraded" to 185hp. The new Accord is still way faster than the old one.

Which do you prefer, more power and less performance or more performance and less power?

The 2014 IS is slower than the old one and didn't get a power boost, and neither did the Q50. If the Accord V6 does 0-60 in 5.5 seconds and the TLX is supposed to be half a second faster than the old one (Which has been tested in the 5.2-5.6 second range) then what is the problem?

Originally Posted by CGTSX2004

The problem is that luxury brand consumers are not the same as your mainstream brand consumers. They are paying more for a luxury vehicle and thus expect certain things, including bragging rights. Being able to say their car makes 300 hp is likely more important to them than being able to get to 60 faster. It is a panacea to their minds, but this seems to be the one thing that Acura seems to still not realize.

At the end of the day, if Acura wants to compete against BMW and Audi, then they need to play the marketing games to reach the same customers. If they want different customers than BMW and Audi, then they need to stop claiming to be a luxury automaker and accept their status as a non-luxury premium brand and focus on succeeding at that.

Originally Posted by CGTSX2004

Time for Acura to fire its marketing team then. If I were marketing, I would have made a serious push to get to 305 hp, just to be able to make that claim of being over 300 hp. Going with 290 seems like a bad move.

And you are much more optimistic than I am at this point, George. I see these numbers as a stumble on what should be an otherwise decent product release.

Originally Posted by TeamAcura

Actually Audi makes some darn good AWD 6MT cars. So BMW is not the only one. I prefer Audi's Quattro AWD over BMW's xDrive any day MT or AT. And I do not believe 6MT is dead just yet for Acura. I want to give at least another year or two for the TLX to offically call it dead. Something tells me though they will offer it down the road if history repeats itself. Honda/Acura makes one of the best/most engaging MTs out there. And although a very small market, they know they are the only few who offers AWD mated with 6MT right now still. Even the 2014 4G is still offered in a 6MT. IMO, they would of canned it by now if it was really dead.

Originally Posted by graphicguy

Ummmm....all DI is is a more accurate fuel delivery system. I'm guessing the compression ratio is still pretty high to go along with that. That requires higher octane to avoid pinging and detonation issues.

Originally Posted by docboy

I had to go back up and read page 2 and just saw this.

Ugh, why are the LEDs below the headlights gone? IMHO that was one of the "cool" looking features of the TLX in all of its ads (plus its mirrors). That's like showing a child a tasty ice cream treat, letting him/her smell and savor over it, and then taking it away! Cruel to say the least.

Meh, that kind of ticks me off that Acura would deliberately show something desirable, flaunt it in its videos (ie. more than 1 video shows the TLX with the front bumper LEDs) and then take it away! Why in the world would Acura do that???

Originally Posted by Tonyware

"3.5L V6 puts out 290hp and 267 torque"

Thats a little disappointing. They can get a lot more out of 3.5L. Did they say at what RPMs?

"Motion Adaptive EPS with crosswind detection"

Finally! I mean after all the TL drivers complaining they can't land the damn thing on their runway with crosswinds Actually the current TL sucks big time with crosswinds so it may help but aerodynamics are tricky and what works under some conditions doesn't work under some other conditions. Crosswinds with blowing snow is what I was thinking...

"They are planning to sell 44,000 TLX'S the first year..."

Is that world wide or just North America?

Originally Posted by KeithL

Both a bargain, the LED headlights on my A6 are like $2800

Originally Posted by rockyfeller

First of all THANKS so much for giving us this inside info Corey. Second of all, are you sure you don't want to change your screen-name? If that isn't your real name, it still seems too easy to trace who you are. I just hope Acura corporate doesn't give you an issue. In most companies something as innocent as this can land you in hot water. I hope you're safe.

After all the speculation it was nice to hear details that add up and the first thread to make real sense. Everything you mentioned is conceivable and it confirmed most of our notions.

What stood out to me the most is that the 4 cylinder powerplant is underpowered. Perhaps they will market the "TURBO!" concept heavily, lol. Weight and acceleration suggests it is probably adequate but if it pales heavily to the 6-cyl version, then it will be a problem. Perhaps a few "appliance drivers" (driver's who just want a commuter. They just want the badge and don't care much about the trim.) may buy it. But people who research carefully won't. I'll give an example of this: The Jaguar XF came only as a V8 this is overkill and a gas-guzzler for most people. They then introduced a V6 which is PERFECT for 90% of the market. Now they have a pathetic anemic 4cyl. I drove it, BLAH the turbo-lag is ridiculous. This was a bad move, they can't move these cars off the lot, nobody wants them. It's as if they made this model just to be competitive and offer options. It's obvious on the redesign this will be dropped. It is clearly underpowered and takes away from what the brand is about. The 4-cyl in the TLX should have bought at least 230hp to be marketable. Perhaps once I drive it I can say for sure but I doubt it.

SH-AWD ILX?? I think that is a risky move. There doesn't seem to be much of an ILX market in the first place. And that's not because of a lack of SH-AWD. A fully loaded ILX is not exactly a bargain and an SH-AWD model will take the top extent of prices even higher. I don't see that helping. The car itself is actually a GREAT car and under-rated, particularly the 6-speed model, which basically drives like a Civic Si. It will surprise you how fun it is to drive, I think it is the MOST fun to drive Acura in the entire present lineup. If they are going to now share that 4-cyl engine with DCT, they are surely going to drop that 6-speed model. It's not selling and partially so because most people don't even know it exists. Sad. What is killing this car is the bland styling. That's it. Good thing jewel lights are coming, that means a refresh with it hopefully. They need to make that car look aggressive. Otherwise it's dead in the water with SH-AWD.

Originally Posted by rockyfeller

I am the biggest cynic of big corporate entities and their interests. Having worked for plenty and doing sales for many years have had me see plenty of evil. I'm really good at sales, I just don't gel with those job roles anymore. The advantage of a corporation is the manpower and capital to get big projects done and market them to masses. That's about it. Otherwise real quality, trust and service in the business world is always with the small business model. I own one so I can relate. Whenever possible I deal with the little guy if he can do it better, even if it costs more.

When I was in sales the salespeople that make numbers were only of 2 flavors: The evil satan ones that know full well how it all works and don't care. They want the commission. They can sell toasters for all they care. These are the majority. The other type are the nice ones that buy into the kool-aid. I was once this type but woke up. The salespeople that make bad numbers didn't matter, they were the next to get laid off. Management's job is to motivate everybody regardless of which type they are so they will appeal to both flavors. I hope what I said doesn't offend you, I can tell you are a good person with good intentions.Most of my nice friends in sales are so in LOVE their product/company because of the way the company has pitched it to them. It's not that they are naive but management knows that in order to make salespeople motivated you have to sell it to THEM too. They don't want you to see too much behind the scenes to let you know how it all really works. The corners they cut, the unethical stuff, cheating, stealing, politics, etc. Why not? It's those evil ones that get higher faster in this company. I know this sounds negative and I wish I could find an exception to this, I really haven't. Hence why many of us think that dealers/corporations are evil. So I am always on the defensive and want to be a informed customer. I ALWAYS do my homework on every purchase and do what suits me instead of being "sold to". I wouldn't have known as much without having been a salesman myself.

I commend you for speaking up to the designers, what you said is sensible and nearly anyone would agree it's the truth. Obviously they are not listening to you or us. You see how your GM shut you up? The rule is always to go along with people in influence higher than you. They always want to promote that guy.

As you said they don't give a rats ass about the enthusiasts. Not surprised at all. In the 50s cars were designed with bold and wild imagination. They could afford to take risks, the American auto industry boomed. Look at Porsche or Ferrari today. They don't have to spend so much on TV commercials. They can make a car with a soul and design directly to a niche market. Acura is trying to stay afloat and keep the lights on. When a company is desperate they want to take the "safe route". As you said volume and numbers is all that matter and the number crunchers have their calculators out. These guys upstairs can be out of a job otherwise. This car HAS to sell without question. But in times of desperation can either come incredible success or massive failure. I only see a Type-S coming out only in 2-3yrs if this car is a hit. Otherwise forget it.

I've also said in past threads the 6MT is dead at Acura. DCTs are the present technology and offering a manual is like going backwards according to this company's direction. I think it's sad that BMW seems to be the only one committed to offering them. I don't expect that to stick around too long either, that is one company that has been getting soft lately too.

Originally Posted by CGTSX2004

The problem is that luxury brand consumers are not the same as your mainstream brand consumers. They are paying more for a luxury vehicle and thus expect certain things, including bragging rights. Being able to say their car makes 300 hp is likely more important to them than being able to get to 60 faster. It is a panacea to their minds, but this seems to be the one thing that Acura seems to still not realize.

At the end of the day, if Acura wants to compete against BMW and Audi, then they need to play the marketing games to reach the same customers. If they want different customers than BMW and Audi, then they need to stop claiming to be a luxury automaker and accept their status as a non-luxury premium brand and focus on succeeding at that.

Originally Posted by CGTSX2004

The problem is that luxury brand consumers are not the same as your mainstream brand consumers. They are paying more for a luxury vehicle and thus expect certain things, including bragging rights. Being able to say their car makes 300 hp is likely more important to them than being able to get to 60 faster. It is a panacea to their minds, but this seems to be the one thing that Acura seems to still not realize.

At the end of the day, if Acura wants to compete against BMW and Audi, then they need to play the marketing games to reach the same customers. If they want different customers than BMW and Audi, then they need to stop claiming to be a luxury automaker and accept their status as a non-luxury premium brand and focus on succeeding at that.

Originally Posted by 012TL-GLM

Exactly, I'm not paying close to $50K for a car with less than 300hp...

Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger

lexus's V6s are just as underwhelming. Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti have basically been trotting out the same V6s for the last 10 years with subtle tweaks here and there. It's easy to gain mpg by adding gears. Maybe they're afraid that FI will jeopardize their reliability reputations... but I still don't see why they can't offer a trim that can run hang up top with a 335 or an S4. When the '02 TL-S debuted, it was faster than all of its german/japanese rivals.

Originally Posted by rockyfeller

IMO Audi has the best feeling chassis out of all cars. The AWD and suspension is really second to none. Solid and capable, it handles anything thrown at it. Love the interior too. The biggest thing that plagues Audis is their steering. I can't get over it, even their S models, the loosey goosey numb steering kills the experience. But the manual transmission I feel is WAY better in the BMWs. Not to mention steering. The latest 3/5 has lost the edge compared to the past. But that new M235i with a manual proves they still got their guts somewhere. There's no Audi at that price point that can compete.

Originally Posted by reddogTL

I honestly dont think the 290hp bit is a big deal as long as Acura/Honda has spent a great deal of R&D refining this powertrain combo. "300hp" may be a mentally stimulating number but imagine the look on the guys face that has a 328hp G37 or 300hp 335i or 302hp C350 that gets beat at the light with your 290hp engine and gets 34mpg. THATS bragging rights in my opinion.

Originally Posted by CGTSX2004

The problem is that luxury brand consumers are not the same as your mainstream brand consumers. They are paying more for a luxury vehicle and thus expect certain things, including bragging rights. Being able to say their car makes 300 hp is likely more important to them than being able to get to 60 faster. It is a panacea to their minds, but this seems to be the one thing that Acura seems to still not realize.

At the end of the day, if Acura wants to compete against BMW and Audi, then they need to play the marketing games to reach the same customers. If they want different customers than BMW and Audi, then they need to stop claiming to be a luxury automaker and accept their status as a non-luxury premium brand and focus on succeeding at that.

Originally Posted by internalaudit

Over at DriveAccord, people were talking about dyno testing on the V6 and it seems from the results that Honda understated the HP and Torque ratings:

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/sh....php?p=2114114

Maybe they are doing the same thing with the TLX numbers?

Originally Posted by CGTSX2004

The problem is that luxury brand consumers are not the same as your mainstream brand consumers. They are paying more for a luxury vehicle and thus expect certain things, including bragging rights. Being able to say their car makes 300 hp is likely more important to them than being able to get to 60 faster. It is a panacea to their minds, but this seems to be the one thing that Acura seems to still not realize.

At the end of the day, if Acura wants to compete against BMW and Audi, then they need to play the marketing games to reach the same customers. If they want different customers than BMW and Audi, then they need to stop claiming to be a luxury automaker and accept their status as a non-luxury premium brand and focus on succeeding at that.

Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger

You're probably right, but Acura shouldn't be understating them here. It makes sense on the Accord, marketed for sensibility, practicality, responsibility, eco-friendliness, etc... But it's a poor choice here. If it really does dyno as strong as a IS350, or a G37, then they need to advertise it as such. Infiniti's been overrating that G37 engine for 7 years now. Everyone knows it can't keep up with a "300hp" 335i.

Originally Posted by 012TL-GLM

Exactly, I'm not paying close to $50K for a car with less than 300hp...

Originally Posted by CGTSX2004

The problem is that luxury brand consumers are not the same as your mainstream brand consumers. They are paying more for a luxury vehicle and thus expect certain things, including bragging rights. Being able to say their car makes 300 hp is likely more important to them than being able to get to 60 faster.

Originally Posted by H_CAR

Fine, then pay $50k for a car with 300hp but that is still slower than the TLX

Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger

Well said.

I think it gets lost that the 2nd and 3rd gen TLs didn't just sell well because they were attractive and well priced, they were also faster than their rivals..

In 2002, you had the TL Type-S @ 260hp, the 330i at 230hp, the a4 3.0 at 217hp, the C320 at 215hp, and the IS300/ES300 at 215hp. That's a big sell. When the 3rd gen came out in 04, it was still the dominant player. Nothing new from Lexus, BMW, or Mercedes yet. Audi jumps to a 252hp 3.2L V6 for the B7 A4 and Infinti introduces the G35 with a "huge" 3.5L V6 putting out 260hp. So in 2002, Acura set the bar in 2004, Infiniti met them. Japan is sending a message.

The next big player to emerge would be the IS350 in 2006. This was a big deal as we got to the "300" figure without using the letter M, AMG, or S/RS. So now you had the big 3 of japan beating all the mainstream german options in the "numbers" game.

In 2007, acura offered a Type-S variant with 286hp to bring it closer.. But in 2007, the 335 came out, advertising 300hp/300tq but putting down numbers that suggested it was significantly faster. (My car dynoed stock in the mid 270s). In 2008, Infiniti countered with a 3.7L that advertised even greater HP numbers, yet still appeared to be slower than the 335 in every measure of acceleration.

So in 2009, acura comes out with an ugly, inflated, whale of a TL that's introduced with lower performance numbers than the offerings from BMW, Audi, Infiniti, and Lexus. And they wonder why it doesn't sell? Meanwhile, Audi drops their non-S v6 option and moves the S4 downmarket with a 333hp supercharged V6 that runs with the 335 at a comparable price point.

Fast forward all the way to 2014, same VQ 3.7L V6 from infiniti just with a new transmission, same 3.5L V6 from lexus just with a new transmission, a single turboed 335 has replaced the twin turboed one that came out in '07, but it's still the hardest hitter in the class, Audi continues to offer the supercharged 3.0 mated to a dual clutch or a stick.

I think if you want an example of "getting the picture" look at the C class. The car hasn't been a good seller in seemingly forever. In 2009, they bumped it to 268hp, in 2012, they bumped it to 305. Finally, they unveil a completely new model for 2015, equipped with an available 329hp/354hp turbo V6 in C400 trim.

So let's not act surprised that people aren't enthused when Acura went from leading the pack in gens 2 and 3 to being at the bottom of the barrel for gens 4 and 5.

Originally Posted by Goosew

I think most people are overstating this fact. I mean on this board, this type of thinking will prevail, but if we assume that Acura is trying to cater to a discerning clientele, then we have to understand what that typical clientele finds important.

Now granted, this is just 1 example, but for arguments sake, lets take it as a cross-section example.
When my uncle (age = mid 50's was pricing cars , he looked at the Lexus LS, Acura RLX, Audi A8 and BMW 7series and Merc. E-class

He and his wife were intersted in the amenities the car offered. Heated seats, Blind spot monitoring, Navigation, easy access to controls, keyless entry/start, pushbutton start, one touch sunroof, (and the list goes on).

Honestly, not once did he really talk about HP, or 0-60times. They were more concerned with ride quality and smoothness of shifting, and if the car could reach highway speeds (off ramps), and passing speeds at a good clip.


I think we (as enthusiasts), may put a bit too much 'guff' in the numbers that the "regular guy" just doesn't even understand or care about.

Originally Posted by iforyou

I don't think the G37's engine has been overrated. Rather, it's BMW who's been underrating the 335i big time.

Originally Posted by internalaudit

Besides HP/Torque Ratings, what else would the luxury brand consumer find in competing offerings (>$55k) that the highest-end Acura TLX still lack? Brand cachet and what else (I'm sure there are a lot more that are lacking)?

Brand building takes years to build and as per many members here, Acura wasted it away the last few years with the beak fascia and what not.

I'm genuinely interested to know.

Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger

That's fair. I always forget neglect torque figures when I think about these things.

A dyno will tell you, S4>335i>G37. Published crank figures will tell you S4>G37>335i. Quarter mile times will tell you S4>335i>G37. So really, the 335i is underrated, the S4 is equally as underrated. The G37 is about right.

Either way, acura isn't touching the 335 or the s4 without starting from scratch, which isn't what they've done here.

Originally Posted by internalaudit

What did he decide on? Seems all those features can be found in mid-level luxury vehicles nowadays.

Anything feature that tipped them towards a particular model?