cruiserchuck

I went from a 2004 TSX to a 2017 A4. Prior to the TSX, I drove an Integra, a Civic, and an Accord before that. I had reserved a TLX when they were first released, but due to reports of transmission issues, I passed on the TLX and went with the A4. The A4 has been great so far. I leased it, so I am not worried about long term repair costs, although I may possibly buy it at the end of the lease if reliability remains good. According to Consumer Reports, the A4 is one of the most reliable cars in its class, while the TLX is one of the least reliable,

FLYGUY31

I'm heading to the Philly car show this Sunday to check out all the new cars..specifically the A4 and A5 Sportback. I'll probably going to pull the trigger this June or the following. I'm leaning towards Audi right now..I wish the new Acura models would come in 2019...I would wait a year if that was the case, but I don't think a new TLX will debut until 2020...

boe_d

I definitely get where you are coming from - I'd like to go crazy and buy a new car now but would gladly wait if I thought Acura could pull out of their current sedan situation. They definitely had great cars in the past but the 4G and the TLX aren't giving me much hope that they can turn on a dime.

pyrodan007

Honestly can't complain with my 2017 A4. My version is almost fully loaded so if there's a problem it will for sure happen with mine. That's why leasing is so interesting now a days. If you like buy it, if not run away 😉

BEAR-AvHistory

The 10 year cost of ownership is a slippery slope. A lot can happen in 10 years as far as quality. Ten years ago ACURA was at the top of their game & AUDI was below average. Over the past few years those two items have switched. A 10 year story with a base starting 5 years ago might be interesting.

As for pure cost of ownership even with zero maintenance a $60K car costs more then a $40K car. To further the point a $40K car costs more then a $25K car. Its expected regardless of which end of the buying public you are you should be able to cover the cost of ownership. Somebody writing on the CIVIC board could easily say about what niray9's good value choice as he says about the INIFINITI & they will be 100% correct. Purchase price is the major piece of the cost of ownership.

How they will last? 3.0T DOHC I6 was introduced on the 335 around 2006. A lot of them are now in the hands of young owners pushing 400+WHP out of them. No real reports of major failures on any of the boards. The DOHC engine is not a new idea, just new to ACURA.

Some people really should just be happy with what they can afford & recognize others can afford less, others more. Such is life & how our choice of employment & natural ability has worked out for you. I don't do Cars & Coffee & look at a Ferrari or GT40 & think wow his cost of maintenance must really be high just because I don't have one.

Time for everybody to step back & if someone moves from a TLX to AUDI just say congrats. If you can't do that think about not saying anything.

BTW The only one in my family with a private jet is my cousin who owns a company in the oil business.

Christopher.

@BEAR: While I don't disagree with what you're saying there, it's also reasonable, for people who can afford to choose a new Audi, but still want to watch their budget, to be aware that leasing maybe a "safer" option (even though reliability has improved, thus risk of major costly repairs is decreased, compared to cars they made 10 or more years ago the cost of those repairs, when needed is still in the realm of "silly high", IMO.).

By no means am I saying that nobody with a "$50,000 car budget" should buy an Audi. Just be aware, that if you're coming from a history of owning more "mainstream" cars like a Toyota Camry, etc., the maintenance costs for Audi could be shockingly high and the simple routine maintenance, without unexpected major repairs will seem strangely inflated and expensive, relative to what you were used to paying on that Toyota.

In my family, it's my uncles that have the extra homes, private planes, and Turbo Porsche 9/11... I suppose my in-laws are even wealthier, but they don't "show" it by purchasing expensive "luxury" items or extravagant homes. My father-in-law could afford multiple Audi RS7s, but he drives an economic little 4 cylinder Toyota that must have cost under $20K and is at least 10 years old. I suppose he's a little like a more handsome, and Japanese, version of "Mr. Bean". :P Seems so nervous when he drives, constantly tapping the break pedal so that it's kind of jerky stop/go/stop/go when I ride in his car. (Maybe he would stop if I point out how much gas he's wasting)

TacoBello

There are no repair costs on a new Audi, due to warranty.

As for maintenance costs- well, I assume an Audi more or less needs the same kind of maintenance any other car does in the same segment. We're talking oil changes, filter replacements, and.. uh... what else gets changed in the first 5 years? Fluids? That's about it. The cost of those items, even if more than Acura, aren't astronomical.

One can even do all that stuff themselves. A jug of synthetic oil and a filter runs me $39.99, here. And it's the same oil I would use on an Audi or Acura (save for maybe the weight of the oil). I do it myself because I have no desire paying any other place $129.99 for the same service, regardless where I go. The only thing more expensive would be air filters. But we're not talking 10 times more here.

You can buy quality fluids on the cheap. You generally only need basic tools and basic automotive know how on how to do it. Granted, not everyone wants to- that's their prerogative though. They can find independent shops to keep prices on changing fluids down. Fluids have never been back breaking expensive to replace, on normal cars like the A4 or TLX.

Being a car forum, this place used to be full of many more DIYers... though with the enthusiasts having dumped Acura long ago, we now have just regular ol' folks buying these cars. If they don't have $100 in tools and don't know how to pop a hood or remove wheels, well... that's kind of their own, individual problem. But I wouldn't lump everyone into the same category. I do my own work, even if I hate it, because I simply do not trust dealerships or shops.

Christopher.

Yeah, I need to remind myself, even if oil changes are $100 a pop, it's really irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, if you paid $50 - $60K for the car...

When you're in the warranty period, then I suppose about the only thing to be wary of is shops trying to push extra unneeded maintenance on you - this can happen with any brand. I had my Toyota shop telling me I should probably replace my rotors soon, when I was at about ~34,000 miles. I was like "huh? what?" and the guy tried telling me: "well, you know, these days they're trying to rim weight everywhere and the rotors are thinner that they were years ago...". I looked at my rotors, they were fine - perhaps 1/16th of an inch had been worn away (smoothly) by my brake pads (1/32" on either side). Something like 95% of the rotor's thickness remained. Good God, I hate to think of ignorant people being taken advantage of like that - if they didn't know better and just said "OK". Isn't that criminal?

niray9

I enjoy driving cars & the 1st car I bought out of college gave me real driving pleasure for around 7 years after buying it(I replaced the suspension and the magic went away!!). Now on my 2nd car(it's quieter,better ride , better tech, more luxurious, more fuel efficient than my 1st car) however I don't feel the magic & 3 years have already passed... i.e. I'm getting older with an important part of my life(driving) not keeping up with my expectations.

The financial loss of changing my TLX to another product with similar remaining warranty@5 years(I have Acuracare) is @17-18K(including sales tax loss).

Btw arguing from an opposite angle, the return of that possible17-18K loss by investing in the stock market instead since January 2018 has been @10% for me.

BEAR-AvHistory

Christopher. I understand what you are saying but you can't really think your relatives are the norm for well off people. In North Raleigh you can drive for miles in any direction & see full subdivisions of very expensive houses, 7 figures which in NC buy an easy 5,000SQFT+ on a few acres + with very nice cars. Nothing special about this area as there are similar areas all over the country. We just happen to live better for the money then a lot of places like the more metropolitan cities.

I don't think anyone is showing off they are just enjoying their lives they earned instead of just dying rich. Besides its hard to show off when everybody else in the neighborhood has the same stuff. But that's a matter of philosophy, No right or wrong. I did my thing raised my kids, put them through school & gave them the tools to make it on there own.

Three kids one EVP, one VP in competing firms & one black sheep a university professor. There are Porsche's etc in some of their garages but they got entry level university graduate jobs in a growing industry & worked their way up. Now their kids are doing the same thing, one university entry level job & the rest still in school.

The one on the job did two summers as an intern is a financial institution in Shanghai. So the kid paid his dues gave up two summers at the beach to work five and a half days a week to beef his resume. He is the one driving the Genesis R-Spec Coupe.

This whole showing off thing is what leaps out here when someone jumps up a brand & the negatives start rolling in instead of nice car Congratulations.

I expect there are vey few here who would not change brands as they moved up in their jobs. Its why you can generally tell who management is in any corporate parking lot by just looking at the cars.

Sorry got off track but this thing as someone who lived in the projects till high school is one of my pet peeves.

The car budget thing. With most of these brands there is not maintenance expense in the first 3 or 4 years of ownership. Everything but tires is covered. First owners of these cars are not keepers except for a specific model. I have/had two. My 330ZHP convertible was about 10 years old when I sold it & the 135is will be around for awhile. The rest are typically turned over in 3 to 5 years. People move around the brands, change on new model or mid cycle up dates & about 40% are leased.

A large chunk of people in the price range $60K & up are getting car allowances as a fringe benefit outside of their salary or company paid leases. Might seem like a shame but a lot of people who can afford these cars are not really paying for them or paying the full price. Get a $750 a month allowance throw another $300 of your own in & lease a Porsche.

There is nothing shocking about Porsche maintenance. When you buy one they layout what regular maintenance will be over the time you expect to own the car. You can buy prepaid maintenance at that time for a major discount or take a chance something will come up that is costly. Standard warranty is 4 years 50K miles.

Audi is 4 years 50K miles & their prepaid maintenance plan is 5 years 57K miles.

niray9

One honest car reviewer I trust and who is a great lover+owner of Audis and German cars in particular says "He would either lease or would NOT own a german car after the warranty runs out".


Is CPO Audi good idea(minimize the risk that is)? CPO = Remainder of original warranty + Up to 6 yr/100k mile LIMITED warranty from the original in-service date

Btw, I'm not worried about normal oil change, brake pad change costs, tie rod replacement at 90-100k, suspension replacement at 80-100K BUT more about going to the shop every month after the warranty runs out for small glitches which cost 300-500$s a pop + some unscheduled big ticket items.

Also, if a certain car company only provides 4 year/50K miles warranty & no extended warranty for new cars ...... that sets my spideysense tingling.

niray9

Few Hondas in the list below in addition to Toyotas. Nooo..... german cars.....

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-...es-and-beyond/

pyrodan007

Cars in general aren't cheap to fix. My 12 TL had a very annoying rattle coming from the sunroof. Decided to fix it before transferring it to my father, warranty had expired. Total cost, 850$ CAN to redo seal and check transmission (told me ok, but later needed software update for recall for torque converter). So unless you know somebody, if stuff breaks prepare your wallet for any brand and just suck it up. Cars are complex, no more easy cheap fixes. That's why leasing is a good idea for luxury cars in particular.

niray9

I'm slightly biased here, since this is my 2nd Japanese car.

The 1st Japanese car(not a toyota nor a honda) had suspension + tie rod + rotor replacements @100k but it was OK since it was 100K miles. So, I have this viewpoint in my mind(probably erroneous) that Japanese cars are good long term, which current data might NOT support but we will for sure only know going forward in maybe 7-9 years from today.

kurtatx

I'm confused

1. Why nationality of the manufacturer matters when almost every car company uses some version of the Toyota lean manufacturing process
2. Why anyone would use the (questionable) fortune of their Toyota to judge an Acura.

I mean, yeah, i like German cars, but not because they're German. Being biased towards Japanese cars is silly.

niray9

Because traditionally/historically cars from certain countries were similar in terms of reliability, quality of materials, performance,handling etc.

The outcomes of different companies are NOT similar to Toyota in-spite of using Toyota lean manufacturing process.

I said I did NOT own a Toyota.

kurtatx

Reread. Sorry, still. You're comparing Japanese cars. it's silly. They have almost nothing in common with each other.

BEAR-AvHistory

No Acuras either so what's you point?

BEAR-AvHistory

Again I got 125,000 + miles on over 10 years my 2004 BMW 330 with brakes, tires, O2 sensors, oil & filters, sparkplugs, battery & ?/?/ nothing else. That said it was the 3rd longest non keeper car I ever owned. No expenses with any of the others or pretty much any car I have owned in the past 20 years.

Speaking of 20 years & a few hundred thousand miles my 1998 Ranger 4X4 has had all of the above + I clutch, pressure plate & throwout bearing, 1 AC compressor, 1 alternator & 1 starter all self installed. Never went down on the road. Maybe everybody should just buy trucks.

Christopher.

The engine system design of the 1969 4 cylinder VW my family had was so simple that every aspect of it was basically completely obvious just by looking at it, does that mean everybody should buy one of those, since there's no need for a mechanic with something so straight forward?

No, but, the evidence supporting the statement: "Japanese build reliable cars" is so hugely overwhelming, when taken as a lump sum across their history, that it becomes almost stupid to ever buy any non-Japanese car - if you want to over simplify things to an extreme degree...

BEAR-AvHistory

You missed the point or I did not make it very well. ALL cars today are extremely reliable even trucks. Some cars will have a bad run short term like the air bags, ignition keys, 9ZF, early 335 HPFP etc but at 20 million or so cars world wide every year they are not doing bad. Most of the stuff in the reports of quality or doom are pretty trivial & the guy who is up this year might be down next year (FORDS nav screen a few years ago was worth a pile of points against them & killed their rating).

The rest is marketing hype & living on a good reputation when things go bad. Right now AUDI is way up & TLX is way down. Personally I think if you buy are car based on what was valid 10 years ago you are crazy. If this years AUDI is good & TLX this year is down money aside you buy AUDI if reliability points are the key to your purchase. Why would you do anything else?

I use the "my experience model" & so have not gotten stuck with a turkey

TacoBello

I didn't read past your first word. Opinions are like buttholes. Everyone has one. And that's just it. One.

steig

I went from Audi A4 Sline w/sport package to a TLX ASpec. Both are / were very good cars. Liking my 18 ASpec right now, but I trade my vehicles every couple years, who knows, next car may be an Audi or Lexus.
Audi repairs are more expensive, but mine was under warranty, only thing I paid for was 130 dollar oil changes. Could of done oil changes myself cheaper, but while the car was at dealer for inspection / recall, etc. i just had them do it.
Audi dealer always gave me a very nice loaner car, my favorite was the Audi S4. Audi S4 was fast, dual clutch trans, and had a nice mild rumble. The only issue was the S4 window sticker was like 62,000.
My Audi A4 depreciation was steep, depreciated more than Acura, Lexus, Corvette, that I previously owned. Could have been just bad timing on my trade ?

WheelMcCoy

In terms of reliability, fit and finish, I agree with @BEAR-AvHistory. Most manufacturers do a good job and quality largely depends on design of assembly rather than country of origin. But I also see where @niray9 is coming from. The Japanese are reputed to be meticulous. I recall one news item back when they hosted the Olympics. There were no garbage cans in the town for the tourists, and the tourists just left their trash in neat little piles on the street. Japanese citizens took it upon themselves to pick up the trash and take it home, and I'm sure that attitude makes it to the assembly line. The Japanese aren't perfect though; the planners should have set up trash routes in the first place, but that the people cared so much speak volumes.

As for cost of repairs, Germans are less willing to sacrifice performance for ease of maintenance compared to the Japanese. To do an oil change on an older Audi, one would have to remove the front bumper to gain access. The Porsche Cayenne battery is located under the driver's seat -- presumably for balance -- but it's a hassle to get to. The Porsche Boxster (I think) has its oil fill hole in the trunk, so you need to make the extra effort of lining the trunk with plastic for protection against drips and spills.

In contrast, one model Honda Odyssey let's you get to the oil filter if your crank the steering wheel all the way and reach in through the wheel well. No jack or stands needed. And mechanics for German cars need to buy special tools, whereas most Japanese cars can be worked on with standard tools from AutoZone / Walmart / Harbor Freight / Amazon / etc.

BEAR-AvHistory

Thing you need to remember is most Japanese mass market cars for the USA market like the TLX are designed & built here with almost all US sourced parts.

niray9

slower reading clears confusion

I wish I could evaluate each of the Japanese companies with real data which I don’t have. Didn’t you initially say that all manufacturers use TPM, implying therefore that the quality/reliability should be similar. Now, your claim is there is nothing in common? Pretty funny…. I would say.

All the Japanese luxury car makers have a 6 years powertrain warranty in addition to 4-6 years bumper to bumper warranty. In addition, they provide 8-9 years/120K extended warranty on new cars. In comparison, the Germans do not provide anything more than the 4-year bumper to bumper and no extended warranty on new cars. Hence, the Japanese seem to put their money where their mouth (reliability claim) is and stand behind their products, unlike the Germans.

niray9

Ha ha ha .....

ONE - Just checking if you will read beyond the word one.

Given an option of believing someone’s opinion who has been reviewing cars for 20+ years and travels year around to car shows & is a fan of the brand in terms of performance & someone who is not a stealth marketer like other car reviewers (my belief based on validating his car reviews vs actually how some of those cars perform) vs someone anonymous on the internet, I know which opinion I would consider as a something everyone has.

Point is there is a reason why only few people are credible vs others. I agree consumers reports is credible, however I’m still trying to figure out if their car reliability ratings include cost of out of warranty repairs till @10 years.

niray9

The difference between my anecdotal example vs yours is – mine supports the general perception of reliability vs yours which is against the general perception of those brands.

So, essentially your anecdotal example can be described as an outlier unless large scale data supports it.

WheelMcCoy

Agreed. And that could correlate as to why the 2018 Acura TLX scores an unimpressive 2 out of 5 on Consumer Reports predicted reliability stat. In contrast, the 2018 Audi A4 earns a notable 4 out of 5.

For those who insist on Japanese build quality, it's best to check the VIN for the country of origin.

kurtatx

And I just want to say, I'm hard on people here who favor Japanese cars because they're from an island in Asia, but I hold German car people to the same standard. For example, I have read in multiple places that German cars built in Mexico (Q5, for example) aren't the same quality. I strongly question anyone who suggests quality is a product of the place in which an object is made. Only exceptions are things like guitars, which tend to be made with more expensive parts when they're crafted in America.

WheelMcCoy

And Stradivarius Violins. Only Northern Italy had the "magic" tree bark from which it was made.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/20/s...olin-wood.html

I agree, once the process is mature and reproducible, and the culture accepted, then the quality will be consistent wherever the car is made. One classic example is how Toyota saved GM's failing NUMMI plant in 1984. Toyota kept the workers and changed the process.

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/403/nummi

Sixers12

the TLX is better in my opinion, way more reliable and fun to drive

not a fan of Audi performance, nice design though

BEAR-AvHistory

When perception meets reality the TLX sinks quite a bit:

http://www.consumerreports.org/car-r...-satisfaction/

Chart is part way down the page but of the 30 cars listed TLX is #30. If people don't like their brand new car how are they going to feel about it in a few years?

Reliability:

Audi 85 points
BMW 3 78
Volvo S60 68
LEX IS 67
INI Q50 67
MB "C " 66
TLX 61

My anecdotal example over 5 cars 2 of which I still have looks to fit the real world a little better then your perception.

BTW my TL in 5 years had more fixes, including a manual transmission rebuild @ 23K miles under a TSB, then all 5 BMW's combined. Issues were listed on the 3G forum at the time each happened starting with a dead LED tail/stop light @ 2 weeks old.

Honda430

Not to nitpick, but if you read the CR review the car in question appears to be the 2015 model. The MMC updates improved quite a few things. Personally I’m doubtful that any of the current CR ratings would apply to the 2018 version. Seems rather slipshod that they label the review 2018 TLX yet did not actually test the 2018 model. I think we all can agree that the 2015 model was just short of a disaster.

BEAR-AvHistory

They don't need to test the car because that's not where the reliability ratings come from


"Where Is the Data From?
Consumer Reports obtains its reliability data from an Annual Questionnaire that is sent to subscribers to CR.org and Consumer Reports magazine. In all, we received responses on over 640,000 vehicles in our latest survey."

For what its worth the 2018 dropped 4 places from the 2017 survey.

Honda430

My post referenced the review not the reliability ratings. As to 2018 any ranking could not based on the 2018 model whicb was released in late May. The reliability ratings were published in December and most likely finalized 4 months prior There’s not sufficient time available to incorporate survey data on the 2018. Any movement in the rankings was caused most likely by other cars getting better scores in the last survey data pull.

TacoBello

Do I need to provide you opinions from well respected journalists that do support German cars? Does that make your guy more right than them?

Again. One opinion. Isn't worth shit.

TacoBello

Please provide proof of reliability. I can show you about 50 threads on AZ with regards to how unreliable the TLX is. I can show you various reliability lists that prove how unreliable the TLX is.

show me any proof, showcasing this reliability. I'll be here waiting, all day.

and for the record- I grew up driving some of the most reliable Honda's and Acuras, back in the day. It's what made me fall for the brands. Well that and VTEC. Acura is a figment of what it used to be.

oh. I just realized you wrote "in my opinion". So it's not based on any facts other than what you personally fool yourself to believe. Got it.

Christopher.

Well, a sample size of 1 is not that useful statistically, but, I'll happily report back each year

I've never owned ANY brand of car that had zero problems, other than my current Acura TLX. I knew some guys that had some old Mercedes that seemed to never have anything go wrong, but all three Toyotas, every VAG, and even my Volvo and old Honda CRX each had at least SOME kind of problem beyond "routine maintenance".

My dad did own a Toyota Camry that was trouble free for over 10 years, other than the exhaust system rusting badly.

What I really want to know, is how much faster will I have engine troubles if I drive my car hard and push the pedal to the floor on a regular basis? Can the Honda/Acura J35 regularly see 6,000+ RPM and still run solid and smooth for years (as long as you do all scheduled maintenance and use decent gasoline)?

BEAR-AvHistory

The question can't be answered as each engine is a unique item. Some Acura 3.7L went through oil at an alarming rate others had no addes between changes. Is the Honda engine designed for sustained high speed Autobahn type driving? I don't think so because most markets are tightly speed regulated. Will an occasional blast up to 6K kill the engine No. As long as its oil is warm before you do it.

It would seem clear that a car run to the red line every day will ware faster then one that doesn't. That said most wear occurs when you turn the key.