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PAWS handles & accelerates better than SH-AWD

 
Old 12-17-2017, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Christopher. View Post
RE Bear's comments about getting FWD 'cause it's cheaper:
Well, the "base" 3.5L V6 w/SH-AWD would have been cheaper than the Tech FWD V6 TLX that I purchased - so, it's not only a price issue. I didn't really need the "Tech" package, I think that was a mistake, since driving enjoyment means more to me than the different feature package. I do really appreciate a few things about the TLX over the Honda 2.0T "Sport" package, which would have clearly been a better "value" for me - those include: how quiet the TLX is inside, leather seats, sun roof, superior suspension (?), and not getting a new "major revision" car in it's first production year.
Aye - they're replacing some transmissions on the 2018 Accord already. I guess the new Accord has some initial QC issues.
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Old 12-17-2017, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Sorry poor word choice did not mean to offend. Should have put it in better context. Acura is selling smart luxury & precision performance very heavily in all its advertising. The top of the line car is a V6 SHAWD. The fully optioned V6 SHAWD car is the best fit for the advertising.

On AWD vs RWD. First I am a RWD till I can't get in a street performance car I like.
Why C4S and 435i RWD then?

Again;



For those of you that like to argue that FWD is an inferior platform, you probably shouldn't have read this.
...
Amazingly, the FWD platform gives the driver more directional control and stability.
My experience exactly.

AWD are for gadget lovers who are scared to be scared / or just want all bells and whistles. I wished mine was a FWD (150-200lbs lighter), with a lower ground clearance and LSD.

Last edited by Saintor; 12-17-2017 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 12-17-2017, 02:50 PM
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I would never pay extra for AWD unless the other option is FWD. FWD is just so disappointing.
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Old 12-17-2017, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by kurtatx View Post
I would never pay extra for AWD unless the other option is FWD. FWD is just so disappointing.
i know itís been talked over, but sorry I didnít pay attention. Whatís wrong with FWD again? In what ways does it affect your daily drive?
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Old 12-17-2017, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Why C4S and 435i RWD then?

Again;

My experience exactly.

AWD are for gadget lovers who are scared to be scared / or just want all bells and whistles. I wished mine was a FWD (150-200lbs lighter), with a lower ground clearance and LSD.
Your experience EXACTLY? Excuse me but you are driving a $37K or so TLX not a race prepared Audi TT $142,200.CDN. Think your personal experience level has maxed out in the TLX so I would not trust your personal positions based on experience. Better you stay with other peoples experiences by sticking to cut & paste out of the magazines. Driving real performance cars vicariously through C&D or B&T is really the safe thing for you to do.

That said have not problem picking either RWD or AWD for a high performance street car that will see some track day or Auto-X usage. Right tool for the job. The AWD Carrera is easier to drive very quickly then the RWD version. Oversteer can be hard to induced in the current Porsche (lifting in a fast turn excepted) but its near imposable for even a good non-expert driver to recover from. Any non-pro who would dispute that is pretty clueless. Also until recently I was still driving better then my daughter & its her car. She has now improved to where she will out run me. Such is life.

In the case of the RWD 440 its no harder to drive under any conditions (snow excluded) then the AWD & still gives you the advantage of being easy to induce controlable oversteer to more quickly rotate the car in a turn. No value in going to AWD. The right tool for the right job

On the comment of the Audi TT being directional & stable, that's as old news as the arrow. Anything nose heavy is directional & stable. Its shortcoming is when you want it to change direction. The more stable it is the harder it is to alter its path. Aircraft are slick examples & since I fly aerobatics on occasion I can appreciate the difference in aircraft types.

Passenger planes you want a nice stable ride with gentle turns. You build the plane with a forward center of gravity.

General military aircraft. You want more maneuverability & turning capability so you need to reduce stability. You move the center of gravity back a bit.

Fighters. You want the ultimate in maneuverability & turning capability. You move the center of gravity back so far that the plane is naturally unstable & requires computers to keep it in the air because the pilot can't manually keep up with it.

txl2017
i know itís been talked over, but sorry I didnít pay attention. Whatís wrong with FWD again? In what ways does it affect your daily drive?


The way I expect you tend to drive, nada, nothing, zero & so on. FWD is just fine for a daily drive car. Why there are so many debates here is there are guys like Saintor who want the TLX to be so much more then a daily driver. Would also suggest that a lot of performance versions from the usual bad guys are bought by people who will never turn a wheel in any kind of automotive event or car a canyon. No harm there either but the fact is their cars are capable even if they are never used that way

Maybe its all because of the way the car is advertised. So cars are just not capable of doing anything like the TV adds.
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Old 12-17-2017, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Why C4S and 435i RWD then?

Again;





My experience exactly.

AWD are for gadget lovers who are scared to be scared / or just want all bells and whistles. I wished mine was a FWD (150-200lbs lighter), with a lower ground clearance and LSD.
Acura should just kill off SH-AWD ... and then they'll shot themselves in the head regards to Honda models. If you can't feel the difference between FWD vs AWD in the TL/X, you can't talk about performance cars ...even with all your idiotic copy pasting of exotic models which cost much more than the TLX and are designed for RWD
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Old 12-17-2017, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by txl2017 View Post
i know itís been talked over, but sorry I didnít pay attention. Whatís wrong with FWD again? In what ways does it affect your daily drive?
Doesn't affect my daily drive, but the FWD is noticeable on my weekend cruises through the hill country.

And if I want a daily driver just for my short drive to work, I'm never going TLX. If I want a FWD snore machine I'll get the Accord.
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Old 12-17-2017, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by kurtatx View Post
Doesn't affect my daily drive, but the FWD is noticeable on my weekend cruises through the hill country.

And if I want a daily driver just for my short drive to work, I'm never going TLX. If I want a FWD snore machine I'll get the Accord.
But my FWD TLX handles my hilly curvy coastal drives on weekends just fine. I guess the advantages of an AWD would be more obvious on snowy or rainy days. For us non track drivers anyway.
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Old 12-18-2017, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Your experience EXACTLY? Excuse me but you are driving a $37K or so TLX not a race prepared Audi TT $142,200.CDN. Think your personal experience level has maxed out in the TLX so I would not trust your personal positions based on experience. Better you stay with other peoples experiences by sticking to cut & paste out of the magazines. Driving real performance cars vicariously through C&D or B&T is really the safe thing for you to do.

That said have not problem picking either RWD or AWD for a high performance street car that will see some track day or Auto-X usage. Right tool for the job. The AWD Carrera is easier to drive very quickly then the RWD version. Oversteer can be hard to induced in the current Porsche (lifting in a fast turn excepted) but its near imposable for even a good non-expert driver to recover from. Any non-pro who would dispute that is pretty clueless. Also until recently I was still driving better then my daughter & its her car. She has now improved to where she will out run me. Such is life.

In the case of the RWD 440 its no harder to drive under any conditions (snow excluded) then the AWD & still gives you the advantage of being easy to induce controlable oversteer to more quickly rotate the car in a turn. No value in going to AWD. The right tool for the right job

On the comment of the Audi TT being directional & stable, that's as old news as the arrow. Anything nose heavy is directional & stable. Its shortcoming is when you want it to change direction. The more stable it is the harder it is to alter its path. Aircraft are slick examples & since I fly aerobatics on occasion I can appreciate the difference in aircraft types.

Passenger planes you want a nice stable ride with gentle turns. You build the plane with a forward center of gravity.

General military aircraft. You want more maneuverability & turning capability so you need to reduce stability. You move the center of gravity back a bit.

Fighters. You want the ultimate in maneuverability & turning capability. You move the center of gravity back so far that the plane is naturally unstable & requires computers to keep it in the air because the pilot can't manually keep up with it.
A lot of blah blah to divert away from very legitimate question, but you answered nothing. I don't give a damn about your aircrafts raving.
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Old 12-18-2017, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by pyrodan007 View Post
Acura should just kill off SH-AWD ... and then they'll shot themselves in the head regards to Honda models. If you can't feel the difference between FWD vs AWD in the TL/X, you can't talk about performance cars ...even with all your idiotic copy pasting of exotic models which cost much more than the TLX and are designed for RWD
My friend you are in denial. I will repeat what was written a few times above.... the P-AWS is quicker than the SH-AWD, period.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Christopher. View Post
How does the TLX rank as far as being able to push a car to the point where you can feel you're starting to slip a little, but that's OK? I'm not terribly knowledgeable in that area, but I read that a car like the Mitsubishi VR 3000GT, for example, is "too easy to drive fast" without giving you those clues that maybe you're pushing to hard for the roads/conditions/driver skill. Some cars you can start to lose some traction and you're OK, you just back off a little because you know you're not on a race track and you might not walk away if you wrap your car around a tree/pole/concrete divider...

I wanna have some fun, but I don't want to die before my kids are off to college. You could say that I've already used up my share of "must have had a guardian angel how the fuck did he not die" incidents when I was younger and I'm not wanting to push my luck these days.
Good plan. The TLX has 3 minuses & 1 +. Its nose heavy (natural tendency is to go straight) Its FWD (car unloads wheels under power/natural understeer) Crappy Tires ( mileage tires do not have traction oriented rubber) the + is PAWS ( tries to rotate the car on turns)

How not to kill yourself, Rule #1 Don't Be Stupid on the road. Personal experience, I have gotten 3 speeding tickets since 1959. Best plan is what the COBRA builders do when the car is first licensed for the street. Get up early on a Sunday morning & drive down to the local big box parking lot. Use a 200ft or so circle & drive it as fast as you can while holding the same circle each time around. As some point the TLX is going to want to go wide outside of the circle. That is the understeer point. The COBRA wants to push its tail out (oversteer point)

Keep pushing it to try to maintain the circle until the car wants to drift wide. The tires are now slipping sideways in addition to rolling forward. Two things you can do to recover. Back off the gas slightly till the tires regain traction or loosen the steering wheel angle slightly till the car recovers. In all cases always look in the direction you want to go not the direction the car is going.

Accident avoidance. Chalk or spray a line on the pavement. Do another one up about 50 feet. Start about 35MPH & when you hit the line brake as hard as you possibly can. If you don't feel the ABS you are not braking hard enough. Increase speed to 45mph & do it again. If you stop before the other line increase speed to 50 or so & repeat. this time when you hit the brakes also turn to the right or left to avoid rolling over the far line. This gives you are feel for how to get away from plowing into something stopped in front of you. Again do not pump the brake just push as hard as you can. Look where you want to go not where the car is going. If your eyes fixate on the obstacle you will hit it if the car does not stop in time.

Something else we all do is enter a local Auto-X. Lots of fun & will improve your ability to maneuver the car.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:10 AM
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Bottom line is if you can handle the pricing & want the most drivers car from a TLX the V6 SHAWD A-Spec is the pick of the litter,

Car & Driver August 2017

LOWS: Slow-witted transmission, still not rear-wheel drive

"These enhancements elevate the six-cylinder, SH-AWD TLX’s sense of athleticism and tossability to the same level as the lighter, front-drive four-cylinder TLX, previously our favorite version. This all-wheel-drive model, however, can power out of corners like a scared cat. Wringing the most out of the SH-AWD system requires that the driver chuck the TLX into a corner, point the nose at the exit, and mash the gas."


BTW as noted above it was the 4 cylinder FWD that was their favorite, not the FWD V6.

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Old 12-18-2017, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by txl2017 View Post
But my FWD TLX handles my hilly curvy coastal drives on weekends just fine. I guess the advantages of an AWD would be more obvious on snowy or rainy days. For us non track drivers anyway.
Goes back to the basic debate as to what is "fine" for the person buying the car. In simplest terms the more capable a car is the easier it is to drive. car A is OK, car B can easily run the same roads at 20MPH more speed. Car B will also be easier to drive at car A's OK speed.

Don't think you need to be a track driver to appreciate the difference. Here we have a road nationally known as the Tail of the Dragon - Americas most exciting 11 miles. 311 curves in 11 miles through the blue ridge mountains. The record average speed is about 54MPH so this is not about top speed even though its attacked by a lot of supercars. I would bet 80% of the people who come here to drive it have never set foot on a track but are just enthusiast drivers.

I took on the fastest man on the Dragon with a 458 Speciale
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Old 12-18-2017, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
Goes back to the basic debate as to what is "fine" for the person buying the car. In simplest terms the more capable a car is the easier it is to drive. car A is OK, car B can easily run the same roads at 20MPH more speed. Car B will also be easier to drive at car A's OK speed.
I agree with this. On that note, drivers can be so much different. The cars we see zoom in and out of the high way traffic as if they were racing are sometimes a civic or a sentra! I'm simply not that kind of driver who would tap the potential of whatever the car I have to the fullest, so the differences at "an advanced level" really don't concern me. That being said, I don't consider myself driving a sleepy car at all times either. The truth is that I can rely on the FWD V6 TLX I have to pick up and brake comfortably as I want it to, and to handle a hilly curvy drive at a moderate speed sturdily grounded. So I suppose I should correct the "non-track drivers" in my earlier post to "non-aggressive drivers".
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Old 12-18-2017, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by txl2017 View Post
I agree with this. On that note, drivers can be so much different. The cars we see zoom in and out of the high way traffic as if they were racing are sometimes a civic or a sentra! I'm simply not that kind of driver who would tap the potential of whatever the car I have to the fullest, so the differences at "an advanced level" really don't concern me. That being said, I don't consider myself driving a sleepy car at all times either. The truth is that I can rely on the FWD V6 TLX I have to pick up and brake comfortably as I want it to, and to handle a hilly curvy drive at a moderate speed sturdily grounded. So I suppose I should correct the "non-track drivers" in my earlier post to "non-aggressive drivers".
To me aggressive drivers tend to be stupid drivers, tail gating. lane cutting, brake checkers etc. Big difference from being quick but safe. In your example I wonder how many people would change their minds about what is OK if they had a chance to actually drive a more competent car over some of the more interesting roads back to back with the OK car. I noticed some posts here where 4 cylinder N/A Accord drivers have moved up to the V6 SHAWD & describe how powerful & planted it is.

A lot of what OK is might have a lot to do with what a persons frame of reference is. Think the 90/10 rule falls in here some place. 90% are happy with the status quo & 10% want something more. Take it to a basic TLX level. Most are happy with their car as delivered but a group still keeps the aftermarket in business selling things to alter the original product to make it "better". Better in quotes because some people will think is better but a majority will think the car is ruined.

Heads-up manufactures play to that market segement offering well engineered parts directly to the user, usually performance parts.
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Old 05-01-2019, 10:06 AM
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Question

Recently spoke to a man who had traded in his Dodge Challenger and gotten a TLX - he said the TLX "felt quicker" and more fun to drive.

Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
...I would prefer a nimbler FWD car (but with better tires), more of that with a front limited slip differential.
Which LSD kit would you recommend for the FWD TLX?
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Old 05-01-2019, 10:24 AM
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^none, see your thread.
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Old 05-01-2019, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by justnspace View Post
^none, see your thread.
Doh. I just now noticed that I won't get any reply from Saintor here, as he's been banned. I had thought maybe he wouldn't see my thread, but might answer here...

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
To me aggressive drivers tend to be stupid drivers, tail gating. lane cutting, brake checkers etc. Big difference from being quick but safe. In your example I wonder how many people would change their minds about what is OK if they had a chance to actually drive a more competent car over some of the more interesting roads back to back with the OK car. I noticed some posts here where 4 cylinder N/A Accord drivers have moved up to the V6 SHAWD & describe how powerful & planted it is.

A lot of what OK is might have a lot to do with what a persons frame of reference is. Think the 90/10 rule falls in here some place. 90% are happy with the status quo & 10% want something more. Take it to a basic TLX level. Most are happy with their car as delivered but a group still keeps the aftermarket in business selling things to alter the original product to make it "better". Better in quotes because some people will think is better but a majority will think the car is ruined.

Heads-up manufactures play to that market segement offering well engineered parts directly to the user, usually performance parts.
Well, my TLX feels like it has significantly less body roll, in hard turns, than my VW GTi did. And I'm not talking about a subtle difference either. It also feels far more responsive and "connected" (planted) to the road than most mediocre old American cars that I have either rented or driven that were owned by relatives.

I have not driven a late model Firebird, Camero LT/SS, or Dodge Demon etc., so - wait, no I did rent a Firebird around 2006, but, it wasn't one with a "performance package" or "track ready" model etc...

My two main complaints regarding using it for "spirreted" driving are that the brakes, while reasonably competent, don't feel like high performance brakes (because they aren't really) and the car does feel a little "floaty" when taking a turn at speed and hitting a bump, such as an uneven expansion joint.

A lot of people have remarked how much of an improvement it was to change to Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ tires, but, most of those people have come from the stock Goodyears on the SH-AWD model TLXs, so I'm expecting a somewhat lesser improvement over the Potenzas that come on my FWD P-AWS variant.

Last edited by Christopher.; 05-01-2019 at 05:49 PM.
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