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P-AWS vs. SH-AWD

 
Old 01-10-2017, 02:23 PM
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P-AWS vs. SH-AWD

So a salesman from a dealership near me told me that the PAWS system and the SHAWD system are almost identical and that I should consider them the same. Does anyone else think this is completely false and a major red flag and that I'm dealing with someone who doesn't know wtf they're talking about?!?! I mean, there's a major price difference and I thought PAWS only allowed you to steer the rear wheels to turn a bit, where the SHAWD was a more robust system using axles, wheels and steering. Am I wrong?

I think I should take the red flag and go with someone more knowledgeable OR they're all gonna be like that and just get make sure I use my knowledge to my advantage, if possible.
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Old 01-10-2017, 02:30 PM
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you are correct, the salesman was just lumping terms together to get a sale that day.
instead; he/she should ask if you need AWD, or if you are comfortable with front wheel drive.

Dont go back to that Salesman! as your intuition is correct.
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Old 01-10-2017, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Civic2TSX View Post
So a salesman from a dealership near me told me that the PAWS system and the SHAWD system are almost identical and that I should consider them the same. Does anyone else think this is completely false and a major red flag and that I'm dealing with someone who doesn't know wtf they're talking about?!?! I mean, there's a major price difference and I thought PAWS only allowed you to steer the rear wheels to turn a bit, where the SHAWD was a more robust system using axles, wheels and steering. Am I wrong?

I think I should take the red flag and go with someone more knowledgeable OR they're all gonna be like that and just get make sure I use my knowledge to my advantage, if possible.
Ask yourself, why would Acura offer both P-AWS and SH-AWD if they were the same thing? Your gut instinct is correct and your salesman is a stupid lying idiot.

P-AWS simply turns the rear wheels slightly to help for tighter turns, it however sends ZERO power to the rear and is 100% FWD. SH-AWD is a full time AWD system that can send as much as 70% of the torque to the rear and of that 70% each individual wheel can get 100% of the power to turns like a kayak does when you move only one oar.

SH-AWD is VERY superior to P-AWS by a long shot. It completely transforms the way the car drives and if you live in a place with a lot of rain, snow, or like to drive your car very sporty, get the SH-AWD and don't look back. Now it won't turn your TLX into a rocketship or a sport car, but it really does transform the way it handles and drives.
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Old 01-10-2017, 04:57 PM
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SH-AWD is very superior to P-AWS mainly when it comes to traction and torque vectoring.

But, each are intended as different approaches to increase handling capability. To that end, the TLX V6 is better served with SH-AWD than without it particularly as the TLX V6 FWD can struggle in putting power to the pavement.

However, in the absence of SH-AWD, its better to have P-AWS than not have it in terms of handling. (Speaking from experience having come from a 14 Accord Sport to a 16 TLX V6 FWD.)
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Old 01-10-2017, 05:20 PM
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Don't waste your money on AWD ... you are at Miami!!! You know with your 2014 TL that AWD is NOT a necessity.

I would have taken my car FWD if available for sure. You'd save about 1mpg and that yearly differential oil change.(about $150).
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Old 01-10-2017, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by RDX10 View Post
SH-AWD is VERY superior to P-AWS by a long shot. It completely transforms the way the car drives and if you live in a place with a lot of rain, snow, or like to drive your car very sporty, get the SH-AWD and don't look back. Now it won't turn your TLX into a rocketship or a sport car, but it really does transform the way it handles and drives.
Superior indeed.

The issue I discovered though is that you really need to be spanking the TLX at greater than 7/10ths to really take advantage of torque vectoring. And then you quickly discover that the ZF 9AT/weak brakes/non-grippy OEM tires and soft suspension can't cash the check that the SH-AWD is trying to write.
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Old 01-10-2017, 08:12 PM
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It's true that the AWD is more useful in a location where you get snow. Of course it's worth mentioning that FWD works well in snow too if you have decent winter tires (engine weight over the drive wheels). It's also true that on dry pavement you do need to be pushing the corners rather hard to feel the advantage of the torque vectoring. Doing so with the crappy stock tires requires a bit of a leap of faith that the system will kick in before things go sideways. However, there is another advantage with the AWD on dry pavement. The AWD car hooks up really well when you punch it from a dead stop. Though the TLX may not be the quickest car around, this ability certainly makes it feels quick at launch time.
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Old 01-10-2017, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci View Post
Superior indeed.

The issue I discovered though is that you really need to be spanking the TLX at greater than 7/10ths to really take advantage of torque vectoring. And then you quickly discover that the ZF 9AT/weak brakes/non-grippy OEM tires and soft suspension can't cash the check that the SH-AWD is trying to write.
This is something discussed quite often in the 1G RDX section. All SH-AWD systems (barring hybrid) work the same. However there are actually 2 programs for SH-AWD. One used on lesser models or possibly lighter models like the 1G RDX and the TL and the other on top end models like the RL and MDX. The SH-AWD in my rdx required me to drive like a bat out of hell to activate however the system in my MDX is active on the mildest of turns. This is very unfortunate because obviously these lighter cars will benefit much more.

Originally Posted by Dolcevita View Post
It's true that the AWD is more useful in a location where you get snow. Of course it's worth mentioning that FWD works well in snow too if you have decent winter tires (engine weight over the drive wheels). It's also true that on dry pavement you do need to be pushing the corners rather hard to feel the advantage of the torque vectoring. Doing so with the crappy stock tires requires a bit of a leap of faith that the system will kick in before things go sideways. However, there is another advantage with the AWD on dry pavement. The AWD car hooks up really well when you punch it from a dead stop. Though the TLX may not be the quickest car around, this ability certainly makes it feels quick at launch time.
Today the dealer gave me an ILX hybrid as a loaner (with shitty shitty OEM, I am guessing all season tires...maybe even summers) and it was the scariest time I have ever driven in my life. It has been extremely icy here lately and I am not kidding you when I tell you the car would not move on some intersections, I gave my self AMPLE (1km distance+) room before cars came and it would not move, I was a sitting duck with cars barrelling towards me on super icy roads...to say I have never been as alert while driving in my life is an understatement of enormous proportions. In hindsight I should have returned to the dealer and told them it was unsafe and unfit to drive in these conditions. It really did risk my life. I was never happier to get back into my own car before, literally night and day difference, did not slip ONCE and I own a 2007 SH-AWD MDX with some all season mud+snow tires. Will NEVER EVER buy a FWD car in my life or drive a RWD one anytime but the summer even with sinters.
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Old 01-10-2017, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Don't waste your money on AWD ... you are at Miami!!! You know with your 2014 TL that AWD is NOT a necessity.

I would have taken my car FWD if available for sure. You'd save about 1mpg and that yearly differential oil change.(about $150).
It would be worth it for me even if there was no snow in NY. Once I made the switch to READ, AWD could be the only alternative. The torque steer elimination, and added push through the corners were definitely worth the premium to me. If FWD was my only option, then I'd be driving something else with rings or a roundel on it.

I did ditch the tires were horrible, and run Michelin SuperSports for 3 seasons which made a huge difference and take full advantage of the SH-AWD system.

The PAWS system does really work, and you can feel it in the corners, but as was said, it's not a substitute for AWD which gives you added traction, and completely changes the handling dynamics vs a FWD vehicle.

Last edited by Mr Hyde; 01-10-2017 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 01-11-2017, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci View Post
.... And then you quickly discover that the ZF 9AT/weak brakes/non-grippy OEM tires and soft suspension can't cash the check that the SH-AWD is trying to write.
I have no input whatsoever regarding the technical aspects of this thread.

But I sure like the way Fibonacci made the point! "cash the check" indeed
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:20 AM
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The 2nd and 3rd Gen MDX has the best sh-awd programming. It sends more tq to the rear and either side instead of being more fwd heavy like the sedans. The MDX evens switches up to 70% rwd on steep inclines and you can feel it when it does. I even get tq vectoring taking a right hand turn at a stop sign in the MDX while my RDX will only budge 1-2 bars with tq vectoring when I'm +20 mph over the posted speed limit on a tight curve. The MDX drives like a much smaller vehicle with the more aggressive sh-awd when the road gets twisty. You have to learn how to drive sh-awd a little differently since the tq vectoring only works with engine power.

I will stick with sh-awd when I'm ready for my next Acura a few years down the road.

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Old 01-11-2017, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mrgold35 View Post
The 2nd and 3rd Gen MDX has the best sh-awd programming. It sends more tq to the rear and either side instead of being more fwd heavy like the sedans. The MDX evens switches up to 70% rwd on steep inclines and you can feel it when it does. I even get tq vectoring taking a right hand turn at a stop sign in the MDX while my RDX will only budge 1-2 bars with tq vectoring when I'm +20 mph over the posted speed limit on a tight curve. The MDX drives like a much smaller vehicle with the more aggressive sh-awd when the road gets twisty. You have to learn how to drive sh-awd a little differently since the tq vectoring only works with engine power.

I will stick with sh-awd when I'm ready for my next Acura a few years down the road.
Exactly! The RL and MDX have something called "hill logic control" where on a steep hill they will send 70% of the power to the rear. The TL and RDX do not have this software (I don't recall if my RDX even sent more power to the rear on an incline unless the front slipped) but if the front wheels were on ice, it would send 70% to the rear and this is yet more proof that not all SH-AWD systems are the same. Similar to how Audi calls all AWD Quattro when there are VERY BIG differences.

I will say during my year with the RDX, I got it to send more than 1-2 bars to either rear wheel maybe twice and I drove that thing WAY harder than my MDX. The MDX in stark contrast will send all the bars to one side if I am making a right or left hand mild turn at an intersection going 20mph or less. I once watched a video of a RDX on TOV and the guy went under it and showed that the left and right axles on the RDX were MUCH MUCH thinner than those on the front axle, this indicates that they are rarely intended to receive the 70%.

This makes sense to me that they would cut costs on the RDX and lesser models a little bit by using less robust SH-AWD components.
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Old 04-11-2019, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Dolcevita View Post
The AWD car hooks up really well when you punch it from a dead stop. Though the TLX may not be the quickest car around, this ability certainly makes it feels quick at launch time.
The 0 - 60 time is .1 seconds faster on the FWD than the SH-AWD, interesting. Perhaps a the very start the SH-AWD gets off the line faster, but the lighter weight of the FWD makes it slightly quicker to 60?

I wish my dealer would have an SH-AWD TLX as a loaner car. I'd really like to see how it feels compared to my P-AWS TLX.

Strangely, I read today that the P-AWS model actually "feels more like a RWD car than the SH-AWD does", but, I will remain skeptical of that opinion until I can test out SH-AWD for myself.
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Old 04-12-2019, 04:31 AM
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Where did you read about that characteristic of PAWS?

....and yes. The PAWS 3.5 is quicker than the SH-AWD, particularly 0-100 and 1/4 mile traps. Off the line is really dependent on road conditions and the PAWS driver’s ability to get traction under aggressive throttle application, which is no easy task.
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Old 04-12-2019, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by F23A4 View Post
....and yes. The PAWS 3.5 is quicker than the SH-AWD, particularly 0-100 and 1/4 mile traps. Off the line is really dependent on road conditions and the PAWS driver’s ability to get traction under aggressive throttle application, which is no easy task.
To the OPs question, yes, that salesman is a noob and either ignorant or lying. A ton of good explanations and opinions from forum users about the differences and reasons to choose one over the other. I sought out the TLX specifically because it offered SH-AWD, which differentiates it from many other competent sedans. Snow is the obvious reason to want AWD when living in the Midwest. Sure, AWD acceleration in light to moderate snow is superior FWD, but many drivers forget that all-wheel acceleration does not mean all-wheel stop or all-wheel steering in snow. These are the SUV-driving idiots who end up in ditches. But AWD also adds confidence and security in heavy snow to know you can get to wherever you're going. This last year alone, I saw a dozen FWD sedans hung up in drifts, snow banks or intersections they couldn't get out of, stuck without leaving the pavement. I've been there and it sucks. At least two of my FWD neighbors last winter couldn't get up their inclined driveways without a push. To me, it feels better to have AWD when I don't need it (cruising the expressway in the middle of a nice summer day) than want AWD when I don't have it (during snow/rain storms, quick acceleration up a cloverleaf onramp, or a spirited drive on a curvy backroad).

F23A4 makes a good point. I've read elsewhere on here that it's hard to plant all the torque that the V6 makes, even on dry pavement. I've never driven a V6 AWS so I can't compare to mine. But I'm confident in my car getting up and going when I want it to and not having to worry about doing huge burnouts in town or around corners. In fact, one of the many things I love about my car - maybe the top of my list - is the feeling when I punch it from a rolling (5-10mph) stop and it goes. Fast. The ZF9 picks the right gear. No burnout. SHAWD display shows the back wheels maxed out. The V6 pushes you into the back of your seat. The power band feels like it's the entire tachometer range. The throaty exhaust sounds amazing. It feels like I get to 60 in like 3 seconds and I realize I'm 15mph over the speed limit. Guaranteed smile on my face every single time.

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Old 04-12-2019, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Civic2TSX View Post
So a salesman from a dealership near me told me that the PAWS system and the SHAWD system are almost identical and that I should consider them the same. Does anyone else think this is completely false and a major red flag and that I'm dealing with someone who doesn't know wtf they're talking about?!?! I mean, there's a major price difference and I thought PAWS only allowed you to steer the rear wheels to turn a bit, where the SHAWD was a more robust system using axles, wheels and steering. Am I wrong?

I think I should take the red flag and go with someone more knowledgeable OR they're all gonna be like that and just get make sure I use my knowledge to my advantage, if possible.
If you live in Miami, especially during the winter, you probably don't "need" SH-AWD -- unless you want V6 power. From what I have heard, the V6 FWD is the worst of the three models, neither light and agile like the 2.4 nor solid and planted like the SH-AWD.
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:28 PM
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The V6 PAWS really only trumps the other two configurations in the area of midrange acceleration and maybe top end, ideally on a dry smooth surface.
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Old 05-11-2019, 06:43 AM
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Regretting buying the p aws without test driving sh awd has anyone driven both and is there a big difference I live in FL?
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Old 05-11-2019, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by J Moon View Post
Regretting buying the p aws without test driving sh awd has anyone driven both and is there a big difference I live in FL?
if you havent test driven it; then HOW do you know you're missing out?

also, how are you going to rectify the problem? sell yours and purchase a SHAWD? why go through ALL that trouble for worse fuel mileage lol
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Old 05-11-2019, 07:20 AM
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Talking

Originally Posted by J Moon View Post
Regretting buying the P-AWS without test driving sh awd has anyone driven both and is there a big difference I live in FL?
I live in Ohio, where, the other year the snow and ice got so bad they didn't bother trying to plow it. I am in the same situation as you. But, they way Acura engineers chose to program the throttle response actually bothers me more than not having SH-AWD.

I drive with Traction Control turned off 100% of the time and my front wheels barely slip, and that's with the stock tires (which I gather, are better than the tires that come stock on the SH-AWD models, for some reason, but still not as good as the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+). I can "burn out" if I want to, by intentionally slamming the throttle down, and I do sometimes miss not having an LSD, but I don't think you need to feel too bad about not getting SH-AWD unless you're talking about the upcoming Type S model with more power.

Same 0 - 60 times and the TLX already suffers from being a little heavy without the added weight of the SH-AWD system.

Try driving with Traction Control off (warning: may be unsafe), in Sport mode (I hate Sport+) and use the paddle shifters to downshift when you want power, I think you'll be (mostly) happy with your P-AWS TLX. If you want to be all the way happy, well then you would need to have RWD + MT and the SH-AWD does not give you that.

Also, realize this: The Type R is FWD and doesn't even have P-AWS yet people love the performance that car gives.
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Old 05-11-2019, 07:48 AM
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^why take traction control off?
I guarantee you, the car works better with it on...from not having to think about feathering the throttle on take offs, to cornering and stopping...

because it can detect wheel slippage faster than you can...
which means you as a human wont be able to control the car the way you think you can.


also, the type-R has special control arms to mitigate FWD torque steer. Which is why it's special and has a special lap time around the ring.
No other Honda/Acura has this technology.

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Old 05-11-2019, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by justnspace View Post
if you havent test driven it; then HOW do you know you're missing out?

also, how are you going to rectify the problem? sell yours and purchase a SHAWD? why go through ALL that trouble for worse fuel mileage lol
Haha. Ditto all this. Plus you better do a lot of research before trading in your perfectly good PAWS for a SHAWD considering:
-you live in Florida and will never drive in snow
-the marginal gain in skidpad, g-force and cornering traction is of little practical driving enhancement unless you’re street racing
-you will resent the rear differential vibration if you buy one that has it - apparently still not sorted out based on the recent 2019 TLX reviewer on Edmunds

Careful what you wish for. The grass isn’t always greener. Many of us would gladly trade ours for yours. Straight up.

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Old 05-11-2019, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by justnspace View Post
^why take traction control off?
Because he's convinced himself that it's the secret sauce that somehow makes up for the shitty ZF9.
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Old 05-11-2019, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by J Moon View Post
Regretting buying the p aws without test driving sh awd has anyone driven both and is there a big difference I live in FL?
I had both the PAWS and now an 18 SH-AWD. I also did not drive the AWD variant when I purchased the PAWS. I would not ever go back to FWD if AWD was available. IMO having owned both the SH-AWD feels more planted cornering and accelerating in all dry and wet situations and even more so where you trying to make a right turn and get up to speed or just driving down some windy roads. I have only driven it a couple times in the snow and it was fine but I didn't buy it specifically for snow. I felt the PAWS variant really plowed through turns while with the SH-AWD you could power through them very comfortably. The downside is that it does get about 2 mpg less and some additional cost for maintenance but to me that trade off was fine. I forget the additional cost of the option but I think it was like $1600 on the sticker to get the SH-AWD. To me that is the single best value option available on the TLX. I would say if you are a fairly conservative driver then you may not really enjoy the difference the SH-AWD makes and enjoy the higher mpg more but for others it changes the driving experience significantly. It's really an individual choice but I am glad I went the second time with the SH-AWD and would choose it again.
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Old 05-11-2019, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by someguy11 View Post
Haha. Ditto all this. Plus you better do a lot of research before trading in your perfectly good PAWS for a SHAWD considering:
-you live in Florida and will never drive in snow
-the marginal gain in skidpad, g-force and cornering traction is of little practical driving enhancement unless youíre street racing
-you will resent the rear differential vibration if you buy one that has it - apparently still not sorted out based on the recent 2019 TLX reviewer on Edmunds

Careful what you wish for. The grass isnít always greener. Many of us would gladly trade ours for yours. Straight up.
Thanks thats the answer I was looking for appreciate it makes sense👍
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:18 PM
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Got a PAWS RLX as a loaner when the TLX was being recalled. I did notice braking felt dramatically different than my SHAWD TLX. I had to check the specs to see if it was different. TLX has slightly bigger rotors but it must be the PAWS on the RLX doing the toe-in during braking that I was seeing. I did notice a loss of traction in the RLX that i took for granted in the TLX. There's a stop light here slightly elevated and in the RLX it screeched on the cross walk paint when I gunned it. The TLX just gripped with no fuss. Regardless of the cost and maintenance I'd still get the SHAWD setup.
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:03 PM
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I break traction regularly under anything more than light throttle off the line even with TCS on....of course, the screeching is minimized with TCS on.
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Old 05-16-2019, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by justnspace View Post
^why take traction control off?
Because I frequently find the the throttle limiting it causes to be excessive to the point of not only being infuriating, but sometimes actually dangerous.

For example: often whend driving down a road and slowing down (or stopping) before turning left across oncoming traffic you only get a narrow window and where you could have safely pulled through otherwise, if you were unfortunate enough to have traction control left on, you may find that your power is DRASTICALLY cut, to the point where it almost feels like the engine got turned off!

The extent to which my control oover the car's acceleration is taken away, with Traction Control on, is simply intolerable - I regularly found it to be more than just a little annoying. Even with it off I still dislike the "rubber band" like feeling of trying to accelerate while the engine is at a low RPM - that annoyance can be mitigated by using the paddle shifters to downshift and get the engine revved up into a higher torque RPM zone.

At first, after I had owned the car for just a few days/weeks I was startled at the apparent lack of power - but, I found that was a misconception driven by the overly aggressive throttle limiting / too soft throttle mapping. Of course that is/was exacerbated by 1) having an automatic transmission 2) the particular transmission they chose and 3) how the transmission was originally programmed (this seems to have both improved over time, and perhaps been improved with the most recent recall when I had my car in for service).

Last edited by Christopher.; 05-16-2019 at 09:29 PM.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:22 AM
  #29  
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Question

Originally Posted by justnspace View Post
^why take traction control off?
I guarantee you, the car works better with it on...from not having to think about feathering the throttle on take offs, to cornering and stopping...

because it can detect wheel slippage faster than you can...
which means you as a human wont be able to control the car the way you think you can.
I don't understand why you would say that. I thought you had a better understanding of this car? Do you not know anyone who owns a TLX?

The problems with ridiculously excessive power cut/delay [particularly after slowing down then turning] are notorious and quite unacceptable - see this guy's recent post, for example: https://acurazine.com/forums/fifth-g.../#post16427430
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Old 05-19-2019, 11:00 PM
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I prefer anything AWD, there's just more grip all around.
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