draph

I'm willing to keep an open mind and see if the new 9-speed transmission responds to manual driver inputs with no perceived delay; but I'm more apt to go elsewhere for my next roomy sports sedan if no MT is available on this one regardless of performance numbers. I prefer an enjoyable driving experience over pure numbers, which includes a feeling of connectedness and control of the vehicle, something that computer software still doesn't quite simulate well enough when it comes to manually controlled gear changes.

I'm aware of all the business arguments for not making the investment (I realize I'm a rare customer that may not be worth the effort to retain); but I also believe abandoning the MT in the TLX would be another nail in the coffin of Honda's auto-enthusiast soul, and a sign of how increasingly small the number of automotive engineers, executives, and product planners probably know how to drive a stick, let alone design a good one and bring it to market (especially in the USA where MTs have virtually disappeared from the mainstream). If those folks don't understand the MT enthusiast market, they sure won't cater to it.

I'm interested in hearing from other MT fans - are you going to hold out for a mid cycle TLX-S with MT, abandon the brand altogether, or drive your "vintage" MT Honda/Acura until the wheels fall off? I'm in the latter camp unless/until something compelling comes along in any brand with MT - still holding out hope the alpha version of the next Chevy SS based upon the Caddy ATS architecture is offered with the LT1 V8 and 7MT from the C7 'vette (30 mpg on highway), or perhaps the Buick GNX with twin turbo V6 and MT.

012TL-GLM

I doubt a tlx manual will be offered. Not a deal breaker for me. The older I get the more my knees hurt and not having to ride first gear in 8 blocks of traffic is fantastic.

Colin

^^ In 30+ years of buying and owning cars, I've never owned an automatic. I would consider one with the TLX if the rest of the package works for us. I'm in the same boat, my knees ache if I get stuck in traffic (which is only getting worse).

NetEditor

It used to be that my cars always had to be manual, but with age and the fact that autos can pull better acceleration times, it's no longer a "must have."

My apprehension is Acura's reputation with automatic transmissions.

SilverJ

I feel similarly. I had driven manuals my whole life, back in 2001 I sold my manual Civic EX
for an Acura CL Auto. The step up to Acura was great. I really liked the CL-S but after about 6 months that wore off and I was pretty bored driving the car. In 03 I was all set to get a CL-S six speed but then the 3rd Gen TL came out with a affordable priced manual. I was in and haven't looked back. I fear even if the TLX DOES come out with a manual, it will be a nightmare to find one and I will have to pay MSRP to get one. No thanks. I have plenty of money to do so, but I cant see myself paying 42-44000 for a TLX. Not worth it to me. So Im either going with an Auto, or looking somewhere else for a manual. Seems to me Acura left the mainstream performance manual market a long time ago, back in 2006 I would say. I wouldnt be surprised if they just stopped making them for the TLX, actually I would expect it.

fsttyms1

With the advent of the DCT transmissions, Manual trans are going to be extinct soon. Ive been a manual trans guy, but i must say the DCT is a better trans, especially what the 2 were designed for. When you have Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche all but abandoning the manual you know its not long before its gone.

weather

^^ well said although quite honestly, I feel for my Acurazine colleagues that do like the manual. Its too bad that both can't co-exist to give the purest their fun and thrill. I really dislike how the country music industry has gone mainstream and strayed away from the roots and the real twang....I am a country music purist but I am also a dying breed.

I guess 20 year old chicks that look good and sing bubble gum song and mention the word "cowboy boots" at one point in the song is country enough....*sigh* Why can't I have my real twangy cheatin' and hurtin' songs again?!? (my rant over)

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Sadly, while there has been the introduction of a 7-speed manual, the vast majority of high performance cars are sold with automatic transmissions these days. People just value different things these days and squeezing every last drop of performance out of the cars is valued over driving engagement.

While I have owned nothing but manuals for nearly a decade, even I may have to give it up in order to get a car that meets my other requirements unless I am willing to pay a lot more.

Nedmundo

As I've driven my TSX with 6MT and enjoyed its hassle-free nature over the years, I've become more inclined to just keep it for the long haul. For now, none of the other MT options are truly compelling, but with good steering the BMW 3 Series could be. And of course I'd be more excited about the TLX with MT, but I'll keep an open mind and at least test the 8DCT. (Besides, I think it will get a stick after about a year on the market.)

The decline of the manual transmission is depressing, but it's well under way, so my absolute insistence on MT is starting to fade, provided the car has a good transmission and is otherwise superior. For example, I might prefer the steering and reliability of an IS350 F-Sport to a 328i with 6MT. I'm not sure, but it's possible.

Steven Bell

iTrader: (2)

^^^^ This......

Colin

I guess there are only so many songs you can write about how your pick up truck broke down, your wife is sleeping with your dog, and your best friend took your gun.

Making country music into "pop music with an accent" opens it up to wider audiences. Kind of the same way automatic transmissions enjoy wider popularity. As I mentioned before, I've never owned an automatic but I'm far less dogmatic about it these days.

Edited to add: funny additional anecdote. When I first started in the car business, it was not uncommon for me to have to teach a younger driver how to drive a manual transmission in order to make my sale. It would literally have been several times a month. It's probably been three or four years since I had to give a driving lesson. Nobody (new) cares anymore.

Ken1997TL

My wife and I both drive manuals. Our Accord is a CVT though, simply because Honda only offers manuals on models with less content

CerberusKy

iTrader: (1)

The only cars on my list (when looking) are Manuals with all-wheel drive. Been rowing since I was 15; my pop (72) still rows his own as well. I hope Acura is successful with the new TLX, but without a manual, I will not be a return customer.

fsttyms1

But the thing is, is there isnt any less thrill. Those comparing or thinking a DCT is like Acuras current Sport Shift mode with their auto arent really comparing accurately.

No offense, But I really dont understand peoples thought process and statements like this. There isnt any loss in thrill and excitement. You still have the car shift when you want, The only thing you are loosing is the clutch pedal. A true DCT (NOT the Sport Shift that the current Acura and other manufacturers have with Automatics with buttons, paddles, or movable shifter have) will give you every bit of control over the trans just like the manual minus the clutch pedal. You have full control over the shifting and when to shift, with faster up and down shifting. Manuals were designed for those that wanted (to have that connection with the car, to be able to drive sporty (hold the gear they wanted, shift themselves etc..) and in the past were faster. Now days the DCT is the performance trans that is faster yet gives people the same option. Saying you arent connected like you are in a manual, quite frankly is But that is just my opinion. Its just a different place for your connection (steering wheel vs a shifter)

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

I never understood why Honda does this. If anything, people who buy manuals nowadays are more likely enthusiasts and willing to spend more to get the right car. Forcing reduced content on us seems rather misguided when people who are looking for fuel economy increasingly go for CVTs or DCTs.

Plus, I feel like the decline of the manual is also self fulfilling in that the manufacturers offer it on fewer variants of the same model, claim that they do not sell at all, then cut the production or drop it from their line-up. I suspect that if they offered manuals on cars at higher trim levels and paired with larger engines, the decline in buyers might have been less drastic.

fsttyms1

And

CerberusKy

iTrader: (1)

Simply what I prefer to drive... even more than preference, driving an auto (weather DCT or not) just doesn't do it for me. It feels like less of a driving experience, and less of a connection to the car (to me). Driving a manual while pushing the cars limits takes more skill, you invest time in learning techniques like heel/toe and double clutching. Driving a manual is more involved, and more involving of the driver.

I don't care what others want to drive, but I certainly understand it. I can see how it might be nice to just sit back and only deal with a accelerator and break, and not having to shift (especially in city traffic). Just not for me... maybe I'm just ADD, but I need a clutch and a stick.

docboy

Not quite true.

I recently test drove a 2013 911 4S Cab with the 7spd PDK transmission.

Lightening fast shifts for sure, but it doesn't always hold the gear. During acceleration the PDFK is fine, I was able to switch and hold 2nd/3rd gear and shift at will. However,when I was in 2nd gear and slowed down to ~2-3mph, the system shifted by itself to 1st gear.

In my brief experience with PDK, at some point the computer takes over. Not sure what other DCT transmissions are like though.

BEAR-AvHistory

All, AFAIK DCT's will shift to 1st under 3mph or so. That is the only time in full manual mode it will control the shift unless you try a downshift that will put you over the red line, it will not make the shift till the revs drop into the safe zone.

One think prevents you from trying to dive away from a traffic light in 5th the other prevents a blown motor due to an over rev.

I don't think anyone in real life would consider either thing an issue or something you would want to eliminate.

Car slows to 3mph shifts to 1st. If you want to launch in second gear hit the paddle while stopped.

The Porsche & BMW DCT have the same functionally but different gear ratios.

EDIT: Drove a pair of BoxerS models back to back & over the same twisty road section in Cary. The DCT was faster & easier to drive than the 6MT. Despite whichever was quicker the handling was outstanding on both of them. Two of the best street cars I have ever driven. Would buy one in a heart beat if I was sure the wife would not cut my heart out for having two two seat play cars.

docboy

I guess it all boils down reference.

FWIW, regarding control, I was driving my TL 6MT in a snowstorm this past weekend. My neighborhood has very steep inclines/declines and hills. I was able to go downhill, down very steep declines, without losing control.

I attribute being able to go down hill without crashing into parked cars/curb b/c I was able to drive the TL at ~5mph in second gear. At such low speeds in 2nd gear and with light throttle, I was able to avoid excessive wheelspin. In this situation IMHO is where I prefer the manual and another situation where I have total control.

I don't doubt DCT shifts FASTER than a traditional MT however.

Having said that, I agree p-cars are a lot of fun with superb handling and design. I have my eyes set on a 997 tt MT. I haven't driven the new Boxster with PDK yet, but I'll have to take a look at it one of these days when the weather is nice again.

i64X

I am one of the ones who are aware that manuals are going away, and that a dual-clutch auto shifts faster than I can. Problem for me is - I don't care.

I enjoy driving a car with a manual because it's a better experience for me. I don't live in an area with heavy traffic. I live in an area with little police, and a lot of curvy back roads. I enjoy feeling connected to the car when I drive it.

I also enjoy the simplicity of the way a manual transmission is built, and the fact that I don't have to worry about the maintenance-free, worry-free experience that a Honda manual provides.

I love Honda, and I've bought quite a few brand new Hondas in my day. My '12 TL is great, and I love it, but someday I'll be searching for something else. When I do, I'm going to look at what suits me best at the time, my only requirement being that it has a manual. If Honda chooses to not provide me that as an option in an Acura, then I'll have to find something else from someone else.

Simple as that.

Honestly, the IS350 would have been a HUGE contender for my dollar vs the TL. There are a LOT of things I like better about them than the TL I bought. But alas, no manual = no sale.

BEAR-AvHistory

Agree its a matter of reference. Don't remember ever having a control issue going down a snowy hill in 1st or 2nd or manually shifting between gears on a hill.

I am pretty sure the DCT will not auto shift under load , like going down/up a hill till it stops but will have to check it out to be sure. Costing to a stop 3mph or less is what I think mine does, again will have to check, but I never paid much attention to it. If I want a quick hard launch I just paddle 2nd gear while stopped.

I really think the whole "total control" thing is blown way out of proportion if its down to a 2mph downshift shift possibility on a hill in the snow.

People can say a 5/6 MT is more fun, I agree & have 3 in my driveway, but to try to do a more total control debate IMHO is a very long stretch.

weather

LMAO...and I thought I had a twisted sense of humor

My next song: "My dog stole my Peanut Butter"

JM2010 SH-AWD

How can I talk/text on my new whiz bang cell-phone while drinking my big gulp if I also have to shift the transmission? No wonder MTs are going away.

weather

^^ LMAO....That is what passengers are for...you press the clutch and they shift

Carbide

yall know chicks dig it when u drive stick. dct doesn't do it for them

fsttyms1

I dont buy that. Sure some of it takes some time to learn BUT, Once you learn how to do it it becomes a 2nd nature that you dont even think about while you are doing it. If you are on a track and have to start thinking about the sequence of down shifting/heeltoe you will go off the track or at min make yourself much slower than you need to be.
Personally i want what would make me faster on the track, and give me more fun on the country roads. Having the faster up and down shifts from the DCT does that. You still get the same involvement of getting to control the gear you want and when to use it. And this is coming from a die hard MT fan.... The only autos i have ever owned in my over 1 million miles of driving were in my trucks. (I even went as far as to convert my 2nd gen TL to a 6spd manual)

fsttyms1

You can shift a DCT to 2nd at that. Many will even let you start out in 2nd as well for inclement weather.

Acura_Dude

That was an amazing build thread.

BEAR-AvHistory

Anyone drag racing with a DCT & not using launch control, me, starts in 2nd with the BMW 1 or 3 series for the best 30ft times.

One of the guys in the thread mentioned looking at a Porsche Turbo 6MT. Interesting thing is the top dog GT3 only comes with a DCT no manual is available for it. So even Porsche has joined F1, Indy Car, Ferrari & Lamborghini in the switch to the DCT gear box. The 6MT is a fun street box, have one in the 135IS, but if you do any kind of track days or drag race & want to be competitive it’s the DCT.

docboy

I guess you are referring to me? I've been looking at the 996tt/997tt 6MT. The tiptronic didn't do it for me. Haven't tried the 997.2 PDK; the 991 4S PDK was ok, but the 991 felt heavier, more lush, and Lexus like (not for my current tastes).

The likelihood of me (or as I suspect the vast majority of auto owners) tracking their car is near 0. Aside from the occasional joy of the red light launches and on ramp romps, we are your typical car enthusiast street drivers who have day jobs and who have wives who bitch to us at night.

At the end of the day, this will all just be an endless run around in circles debate. Those who prefer the MT will still prefer the MT; those who are satisfied with the DCT will still end up with the DCT. Neither side will likely stray.

Colin

Not to get too far down the road on this, but the V6 9AT is not a DCT right? As far as I know, the 4 cylinder will get the 8DCT with torque converter but the 9AT is technically not a DCT.

Ken1997TL

My understanding was that the 9AT was a ZF, not a Honda design.

Colin

That is my understanding as well. The 8DCT is a Honda design.

docboy

I wonder why the 4 cylinder gets a DCT, the V6 does not? Is it an engineering limitation due to the V6 engine?

Colin

Could be. Maybe they figured they can create an in-house design for 4 cylinder motors and sell it globally. Whereas the V6 tranny would primarily be a N. American product. If they sell 50-60K TLXs and 50% are V6 units, perhaps there isn't sufficient volume for the effort? 25K x 5 years is only 125K needed over the projected lifespan of the TLX.

BEAR-AvHistory

Still trying to think why anyone would put a torque converter in a DCT which is a manual gearbox with an automated clutch? Anyone know?

Acura_Dude

CoquiTSX

I believe somebody mentioned the torque converter makes the gear changes smother than the DCT when taking off from standstill or @ lower speeds. I’m sure I will be corrected if that’s not the reason.

Jim 2004

The 4G was automatic-only in 2009. So who knows? The 2016 TLX could have a stick option. Still, why did Honda go to the trouble to offer 6MT in cars built in Ohio and sold mainly in North America?