It's not the ZF, it's the traction control
 

Several folks have made the point that they turned off Traction Control and shazam! All the misbehavior attributed to the ZF9 disappeared. I decided to attempt to duplicate the results in controlled circumstances.

Here's what I observed:

1 - Car seemed to leap off the starting line
2 - No problems downshifting around corners, almost too aggressive
3 - No problems downshifting several gears at slow to moderate speeds (e.g., punching it at 35 mph or so)
4 - SHAWD torque vectoring seemed even more aggressive.

Turning off traction control turned the car into a beast. I could see how on a wet road you could really get in trouble, even with the grip of the Michelin Pilot Sports. ;-)

So I would be curious to see the results of others CAREFULLY duplicating the same experiments. It certainly does seem that it is the traction control programming, NOT the ZF, that causes the unpleasant quirks people report around downshifting. That means it is an eminently correctable problem, and could even be tuned as part of IDS.

Nah, sorry to burst your bubble. Hesitation off the line does improve but the tranny still has the dreaded lag. Car does feel more peppy but the tranny is lazy at times, especially when you need a quick sudden get up.

I have to say even with the 2019 TLX V6 there is some lag when you try to get that quick burst changing lanes. My 16 Accord coupe V6 was instant power with that 6 speed tranny. Disappointing that in the 6th year of production they're still using it, however it's improved over the years. Next gen needs a whole new system.

The next gen TLX is reportedly using the Honda 10-speed tranny, so you may have your wish.

Don't believe traction control as a thing has anything to do with it. When you go to sport the throttle & transmission map changes to a more aggressive one. I have a solid 370 horsepower at the wheels & it feels a lot stronger going from comfort to sport, nothing unique about that. My map looks like this you will have a similar one within limits of how they programmed the system. Same with all modern cars that have a sport option on the car.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/acurazi...cf3fd414b9.jpg

So in terms of pure straight-ahead shifting, that may well be true (i.e., that transaction control has nothing to do with it). But a number of people have reported a frustrating lag when turning right in particular, where in the turn you punch the accelerator expecting the downshift to occur and nothing happens, and I have repeatedly observed this myself. Well, my tests show me that THAT in particular is traction control, not the ZF.

Yeah that might be as its not a good plan to punch the gas in a turn. Its also not a good plan to change gears in a turn as it will typically upset the cars suspension somewhat.

You should set up gearing & speed before the turn & accelerate on the way out. So if you want a lower gear to accelerate out of the turn shift down with the paddle just before you turn in.

BTW: Regardless, both the ZF 9 mechanically & the Acura software implementation for it suck. The particular dog clutch design in the transmission which is not present in the ZF8 was never designed for very fast shifting like the ZF8. It was designed for nice gentle family oriented rides where the internal & external teeth in the clutch assembly would have some time to get aligned before they engaged.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/acurazi...339b45d50b.jpg

Beautiful diagram. :-) The only dispute I have with it is, from what I understand, with SH-AWD, it only works when you are accelerating, so you are supposed to begin accelerating earlier than this diagram appears to show, so that the torque vectoring will kick in and help push the car around the turn. And THAT is where the problem is, because as you attempt to start accelerating as you enter the yellow part, the transmission can leave you hanging, depending on how sharp the turn is, how fast you are going, and how much you want to accelerate. If I am misunderstanding how SH-AWD works don't hesitate to explain. Thanks!

I had a scary situation today. Came to an intersection was almost to a stop, basically a slow crawl, saw my opening to make a 90 degree right, Started to accelerate and to not cause anyone coming up behind me to slow down I nailed to about half throttle and about halfway through the arc of the turn and the car just feel flat on its ass I had to go to the floor and it took a solid 1+ second for the same computer and tranny to do anything. While my 15 was worst this car is still a tranny and computer logic mess. Part of me says this can’t be just the ZF, but by now Acura should have been able to fix any shift logic so I have to think it is the tranny. My wife's 19 RDX SH-AWD shift perfectly, rap day to any throttle command as expected.

i am glad I leased this one too and if the next gen is not far better then I will be leaving Acura again.

My 19 has its moments, but I swear after the fuel pump recall things got better. I put an k&n air filter in, michelin as/3's on and I keep it in sport mode and I'm gone. I get looks all the time too since it's white, tinted all around. My biggest complaint is the fuel management engine cut off thing and the vibration at 70 its a little annoying

Its just what KiethL said that you agreed with. The shift logic is screwed up its not selecting the correct gear to put the SHAWD under load in the turn. Its not the traction control interfering because the transmission is hanging up between gears. If it has not shifted & since is caught between gears the tires are not under load, if the tires are not under load they can't be slipping, if they are not slipping why would the traction control intervene.

The yellow portion is a powered portion. You do have your foot in the throttle the car is under load till its the best time to shift & power out (light blue) or if your gear selection is already good to just power out (light blue) before you go to WOT (dark blue). Its a smooth progression from the approach till you are straight. Only thing that really gets punched is the brakes in the red zone.

The type of turn SHAWD is best suited for are sweepers & high speed turns over the road under load, IE twisty roads. Making 90* turns off a low speed approach then cracking the throttle part way around your system is going to say WTF & freeze up while it tries to solve the problem. Since its not getting into gear the SHAWD is just sitting there waiting for something to do.

The diagram is taught in every HPDS in the country you might have a quicker way to get through a corner by punching the throttle in the yellow but I don't think it will work with SHAWD, especially one with sloppy shifting. That is one of the advantages of a DCT you can if you have to shift in the middle of a turn & its of a problem for the suspension to handle.

Watch the cars brake lights in front of me in the Rat Race vid as he turns. We are shifting multi times during the lap but at the end of the braking period & as we come out of the turns as necessary. Every time the cars are coming out of a turn is hammer down.

BTW these are 444BHP 3.8 second 0-60 cars so the speed & traction loads builds very quickly. None of us are getting squirrely coming out of the turns the traction is solid. Only place they got loose was me in the section by the dirt in the left hander & the car in front of me coming off the skid pad.

The Honda 10spd seems to be working well with the 2.0T. if they keep the V6 and increase hp some it could make for a nicer ride.

I've driven a ZF-9 Odyssey. While it felt a little rubber band-ish sometimes, it was still rather pleasant... And very fast off the line, IMO!

Did you get your 19 in 2018? I got mine in March and mine hasn't had a recall. I know there some cars that were not affected by the fuel pump issue.

Regardless of how good or bad the ZF9 is, the Honda/Acura engineers have made, IMO, a piss-poor design/programming decision in regards to how drastically the power is cut in certain slow down/stop then turn + accelerate situations - the lack of power is frequently [can be] so severe as to be downright scary/infuriating.

Turning Traction Control off virtually eliminates this danger/irritation.

Also: most of the time I am able to downshift and get a sudden burst of power almost instantly - I will only occasionally be in some bad spot for the transmission (presumably at a "dog clutch" transition point?) where there is a little lag.

Where I NEVER experience lag is when I am at highway speeds and want a quick boost in power - my 2018 TLX has always been exceptionally good in that regard - in fact, in other threads I had previously pointed out where, in testing, the TLX was superior, in terms of acceleration from already at highway speeds, to faster, than even the competitive 4 series model that BEAR had been discussing/presenting as the superior car.

Before turning Traction Control off I was actually quite confused about the apparent lack of performance from my TLX, almost as if it wasn't really a V6 engine - it left me disappointed and scratching my head. Now that I basically automatically turn off Traction Control every time I get in my car, without even thinking about it, it's mostly "fixed" that perceived problem which had been a result of the Honda/Acura engineers mistakenly [IMO] thinking that it was my grandma driving my car rather than me.

@Christopher., but-but-but, you have that cheezy Type-S logo on your TLX, by definition that makes your car faster and more perfecter. :tongue:

TLX/Aspec (V6 9ZF AWD) vs 440i. (I6 8ZF AWD) (note1)
Car & Driver 2018 TLX Car & Driver ASpec 2018 440i

440-Top gear, 30-50 mph: 2.8 sec
TLX-Top gear, 30-50 mph: 3.3 sec

440-Top gear, 50-70 mph: 3.3 sec
TLX-Top gear, 30-50 mph: 4.1 sec

440-Zero to 60 mph: 4.4 sec
TLX-Zero to 60 mhh: 5.7 sec

440-Zero to 100 mph: 10.8 sec
TLX-Zero to 100 mph: 14.2 sec

440-Zero to 130 mph: 19.2 sec
TLX-Zero to 120 mph: 22.5 sec *

440-Zero to 150 mph: 28.8 sec
TLX-N/A * limited to 126MPH

440-Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 5.0 sec
TLX-Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 5.9 sec

440-Standing ¼-mile: 12.9 sec @ 109 mph
TLX-Standing ¼-mile: 14.2 sec @ 100 mph

TLX-*Top speed (governor limited): 126 mph

(note1) Base 320BHP 440 optional 440 MPPSK 355BHP not tested

Hey, at least I didn't stick a noisy exhaust on my Civic (I don't have a Civic) and pretend that it's fast just because it has "VTEC" and new the exhaust is loud :P

Oh, and my Type S logo is a genuine OEM part I'll have you know! 😜

Hmmm, and OEM part for a TLX? Nah, I'm thinking not.

You got me, do I have to turn my TLX in to the teacher now? It is an Acura OEM part, yes, it doesn't belong on a TLX, yet...

The sticker is honestly for me, not for other people looking at my car.

BTW, I think the TLX is beautiful in "Lunar Silver"...

Edit: beautiful? OK, no, it's fucking beautiful. Am I still jealous of people who can afford a Porsche or a BMW M2? Yes, some, but, with Traction Control off, the Acura TLX is a fine piece of machinery. Now that I've "had" an Audi A6, I'm not sad that I'm "stuck" with "just" a TLX, I'm feeling happier with it. It's kind of like after you've had sex with the hot girl, and you loose that "the grass is greener on the other side" feeling. Yeah, it was good, but now that you know what you were missing, you have confirmed that you married the right one.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/acurazi...2556efa176.jpg

Oh, and I could listen to the stereo a lot louder in my TLX before the kids complained and asked me to turn it down (in the Audi A6).

I honestly did not think that I would feel exited to get my own car back when given an Audi A6 for a rental. Things might have (probably would have) turned out differently for me had I been given an Audi "S" or "RS" class car, but I don't know, I really want to try an Audi RS3 or S4!

:leghump: :facepalm: :thud:

Try the same turn with Traction Control off and, you will curse whoever programmed the car's TCU/ECU power response after slowing down then turning and trying to accelerate, because now you will know how it should perform.

@Acura WHY T.F. did you program this car to behave like a scared grandma instead of delivering us the torque we want (and need) to haul our ass out of the way of oncoming traffic when we're turning?!?

A 9 speed that works but its big bucks.

K-J seven clutch nine speed

How do I turn Traction Control off on my 2018 ASPEC V6 TLX please?

Just press and hold the traction button for a few seconds and it will kill it. Unfortunately, you have to do this every time you turn the car is on.

This process has become automatic for me every time I get into the car. Would be nice to have a menu setting to "always off". Is it truly 100% off in the "off" setting? I don't want it all the way off, I just want to override the stupid excessive power reduction and not feel like my car is trying to kill me every time I have to turn across oncoming traffic after a stop!

If the tranny is slow to act, quickly let go of the accelerator completely, then press quickly again. This seems to reset the transmission when it pauses in a turn. If you have a SprintBooster like I do, I just jam the accelerator and the transmission downshifts, having gotten a “throttle full open” signal from the device. The traction control is too important to be shut off in regular street driving IMO.

Good luck!

I've had multiple seriously bad experiences (dangerous even) caused by overly aggressive throttle reduction when TC was on though, I actually feel safer with it off. I suppose you could call it "throttle throttling" ;)

I want Traction Control to simply react when loss of traction is detected, not to proactively try to prevent it.

Even without the option of having Traction Control on, I feel like my TLX is 100x safer than my old 1981 Formula Firebird was - although I still miss the ability to throw out my car's rear end however much I wanted to, basically instantly. I once avoided being "T-boned" by slamming down the throttle in my Firebird, instead of getting hit in the side by a speeding truck that came around a blind corner, my car danced around it like almost like a figure skater pivoting around her partner while they hold hands (except our vehicles did not touch).

Two things. Was reading up on this in the TLX & it said you can degrade it but can't completely turn the system off. Question I had is the traction control & stability control under single control or can you set them separately?

After reading this thread, I experimented myself and can confirm plausibility. Can't guarantee it's not placebo effect, but jaunted through town for two days with TC off and did perceive better shifting and acceleration though turns.

As far as the quote above, I could not agree more. I really don't know how the TC is programmed. It obviously intervenes in loss of traction events. The best example of this (and when I normally turn TC off) is in the winter when I want to drift around turns or do donuts in parking lots. On, it controls throttle and brakes slipping wheels. Off, it does nothing. I absolutely hate the notion that it's a nanny system programmed to proactively prevent slips and skids by controlling throttle, shifting and steering, if that is indeed the case. Thinking to myself on the drive home: I bought a car with AWD so I could trust and control the traction myself. TC babysitting my car totally destroys the whole purposes of spirited driving with performance AWD systems.

It seems this car has several features that many of us would like off or deactivated by default. I count at least three: AEIS, TC and VCM. You could add one that we want activated by default: Brake Hold. That's four buttons to press every time we get in and start the car. How annoying is that for a luxury/sports sedan (whatever the TLX is)? The inability to toggle any of these by default is absurd.

For me, personally, I leave what's off by default off and what's on by default on simply because I can't stand staring at green or amber lights on the dash board - which is another beef of mine with this car. Why are there system on/off indicators on the dash where true warning/hazard lights should be? If something on my dash is lit up, dadgummit, I better need to pull over to check it out. System indicators should go on buttons.

^ I do agree with you on the 'leave what's off by default off and what's on by default on'. I actually used to turn off my TC every time as I do feel a difference. Manually switching things on and off will get old eventually. We live in a fast paced world where vehicles should just be a button or two away (ignition and drive) and you should be good to go on your commute and enjoy the drive.

The difference w/TC off is absolutely not just a "placebo", it has a dramatic effect and significantly improves both the amount of fun I have driving my car, and, my perception of how "safe" the car is. Perhaps something will happen at some point, where having Traction Control on would have prevented a "bad thing" from happening. But, two things I know: leaving TC on results in a high likelihood of a "bad thing" happening when I'm trying to turn and my car doesn't quite make it out of the way of oncoming traffic because the power cut is too severe, and, if I'm going fast my setting it "off" has no effect anyway because it comes back on at speeds over 40MPH even in the "off" setting.

Right - I was recently reading up and watching some videos also - what I do, that I call "turning Traction Control off" is not actually "fully off". "VSA" (Vehicle Stability Assist) is actually still on when you simply press and hold the TC button to shut it off. There is a fairly tedious procedure you can go through to actually turn off VSA also (and I think that procedure also fully disables TC?).

So, I don't quite know completely what is left on, safety wise with TC off, but I do know this important tidbit: "Turning Traction Control off disables Traction Control at speeds under 40 MPH but does not disable ABS" (or VSA).

has anyone tired to fully Disable TCS and VSA together? i will try this method later and see how it goes.

Fully disable
-------------------
1. Turn car on
2. Parking brake off
3. Press and hold brake pedal
4. Turn traction control on and off
5. Release brake pedal
6. Parking brake on
7. Turn traction control on and off
8. Press and hold brake pedal
9. Turn traction control on and off
10. Traction control light should be solid and another light blinking

I'm fully satisfied with the TLX's powertrain performance above 40 MPH - it's the 0 - 30MPH quickness that I desperately wanted to improve. I found some significant satisfaction in improvement in that area by the simple "press and hold" to turn off TC (below 40MPH) while leaving VSA on.

At highway speeds, basically the only change I want from my car's performance is to be less "floaty" when hitting a bump while turning at speed. I don't like how it seems to bounce more than once - I wish it would hit the bump and just have one single "thud" without that bouncy feeling. I'm not exactly sure what aspect of a car's suspension needs to be improved to feel more solid around turns when hitting a bump - I'm assuming that it goes beyond simply having a stiffer suspension.

Yes. I will say turning off traction control is better

The aspect of the suspension with the TLX that I find disturbing is that it seems to sway side-to-side after a bump in a way that I don't remember my TL Type S doing. Anyone else notice that?

I think the move move away from DWB made the car less stable on rough roads. Also the thought of turning traction control off defeats the safety aspects of the car.

With my son out of town on and off for the past month, I've been driving his Q50 3.7 RWD. You know what? Its 7AT does the same thing when turning at 90 degrees.

While it is an annoying characteristic in both cars, I've not found it too problematic in my daily driving....just something to consider as I drive.

All that said, turning off TCS does mitigate this characteristics somewhat. :shrug:

I would like to know - I wonder if we could correct that somehow?

I read that turning it off only affects speeds under 40MPH though. It also does not disable ABS or VSA.

Perhaps someone could confirm, before something happens, in case I'm wrong - wouldn't want someone to assume that their traction control was working at 80MPH but then it's not. If I come across some documentation about that, I'll share it, to confirm.

It does feel a little "floaty" under one certain circumstance: and that is, hitting a bump at speed while turning hard.

I mean, it bothers me just enough that I think about it and wonder if there's something that could be done to improve it.

For me, there is only one bump, on one particular turn, where I experience this happening. In thousands of miles of highway and back road driving, I haven't experienced this unsettling feeling from my car anywhere else and yes, I certainly do drive it faster than I'm supposed to most of the time.

Otherwise, the car is fantastically stable, far less body roll in hard turns that most other cars, such as my previously owned VW GTi - it had significantly more body roll in hard turns.