BEAR-AvHistory

I like the give & take, don't take anything personal on the internet & treat the forums like a bunch of car guys hanging out at the local tavern shooting the s**t. On occasion some actual car stuff does fall out of it like the understeer/oversteer info which can be applied to any car you drive. Besides the ignore button should work to save some anguish.

With the limited membership on this forum if conversation was that tightly constrained there would not be any conversation IMHO. your results may differ. That said will shut up for a while & lurk after one last thing. This is sort of on topic with the TLX most likely going with at least 1 turbo version. Drove the new 718 Boxster today. 2.5liter Turbo & PDK (7DCT) RWD. The car is a pocket rocket. Floor the pedal at any speed & its Warp Factor 5, PKD shifts are instantaneous. This power package in the TLX would make the A-Spec with its better suspension the car many are waiting for from ACURA. HONDA makes very good Formula I & Indy engines. Civic R 300HP engine + 500CC & its there, I4 2.5L 350HP Type-S.

BEAR-AvHistory

Supercharged Cobalt SS Failed. To expensive & to little power. Pulled off the market till the Turbo version was released.

The Cobalt SS was GM's first foray into the tuner market, launching with a 205 hp (153 kW; 208 PS) supercharged 2.0 L engine in late 2004 as a 2005 model, paired with the F35 manual transmission of Opel. The following year, a naturally aspirated 1SS model equipped with GM's new 2.4 L,171 hp (128 kW; 173 PS) engine was added; it had both automatic and manual transmission options. Production of the supercharged version continued until 2007; after a brief hiatus the SS relaunched in the second quarter of 2008 with a more economical turbocharged 2.0 L engine producing 260 hp (194 kW; 264 PS) before all Cobalt production ended in 2010.

Small engine Superchargers are just something to dig up from the past that never panned out.

kurtatx

Is it not obvious? The DCT is developed for a four cylinder. S4 is a 6...? Even for you, this is pretty naive.

BEAR-AvHistory

Sorry for the extra post hit the post button to soon.

FORD Thunderbird Super Coupe was a failure:

,supercharged and intercooled version of the 3.8 L OHV V6 was used to power the high performance Thunderbird Super Coupe, also called Thunderbird SC for short. When running at a maximum of 5600 rpm, the supercharger provided 12 psi of boost, producing 210 horsepower. It was considered a failure by Ford's top management. On January 17, 1989, Ford President Harold A. Poling, with Ford CEO Donald Petersen and Ford Executive Vice President Phil Benton looking on, harshly criticized the MN12 program's staff in a meeting

The little Civic R Turbo produces 300HP+ out of only 2 liters.

VW TwinCharger:

The company’s 1.4-litre engine, which mixes turbocharging and supercharging, is said to be too complex and expensive to produce.

Instead, VW engineers now believe that new turbocharging technology can achieve similar results at a much-reduced cost.

Saintor

Nope. The previous B8.X V6 had a S-Tronic availalbe. You still in denial. Even the new 650HP M5 F90 has a regular automatic and it had a DCT before. Now you know.

Saintor

We all know that they went - I need no history copy& paste, I know very well all of this. The point was that it is BS to say that it couldn't be done because of cost. This was incorrect.

kurtatx

BMWs DCT can't handle 650 HP. That doesn't make DCTs in other cars a gimmick.

Saintor

1. Transmissions are rated by torque, not power.
2. You don 't know that.
3. If DCT was soooo compelling, BMW would have a proper version for this car. In the meantime, BMW claims a 0-60mph in 3.2s. No need for that gimmick.

Rocket_man

It was not only the torque but the size of the 8DCT was just not going to fit under the hood with a V6. I'm sure decisions like this are made for very complex reasons that we'll never understand. Timing, budget, packaging, ZF claims, who knows. Like other manufactured that were lured to the 9ZF, I don't think Acura meant to make a bad decision, but they were in full control of the response and they screwed that up big time. The car still suffers from the reputation and the impacts it had on the plunging reliability numbers. Honda has had several transmission related mis-steps in their history. Not sure why they can't seem to figure out this part of the car. Let's hope this 10-speed transmission doesn't write another bad chapter in that history.

kurtatx

As an Acura buyer, Saintor should understand this concept better than anyone. Acura gets second fiddle treatment behind their high volume cars.

BEAR-AvHistory

I expect anyone who says turbos & 7DCT's are not used bu high end car companies does not have much experience with high end car companies to know anything about their product lines.

Its interesting the way different companies look at these things & deside what to market. All the top supercars run 7DCT's. Mercceds top AMG two seat $175K to start sports car runs a 7DCT. The top of the sedan line the Maybach comes in two flavors cruiser & performance. This is a $175K+ 4 door luxo-barge. The small engine 4.0 Twin Turbo V8 produces 462HP & has a 9 speed automatic. The big engine Twin Turbo V-12 produces 621HP & has a 7DCT,

To call either a turbo engine or a 7DCT a gimmick is just ____________ (fill in the blank)

Nedmundo

Agreed. I hoped, and almost expected we'd see the 2.0T and SH-AWD in a next-gen top-trim ILX. A few years ago, Acura announced it would be moving toward AWD and using Honda's "best engines," and a 2.0T/AWD ILX would be consistent with that. With AWD and more luxury, it could cost the same as the Civic Type-R, no problem. We also know Honda has been testing the 1.5T with the 8DCT, which I figured would be the base ILX at around $30k. (I've even wondered whether they kept the 1.5T's torque below 200 lb.-ft. to allow use of the 8DCT.)

But Honda has indicated the Type-R range might expand, with something like a "GT." If so, perhaps that model will effectively replace the ILX. I think a 2.0T/AWD ILX would make more sense, but who knows?

As for DCTs, Acura also has the 7DCT in the RLX hybrid, which obviously can handle more torque than the 8DCT. Perhaps it could be adapted for use with the 2.0T.

CheeseyPoofs McNut

Two Things:
1) Let's keep the thread moderately on-topic
2) Name calling will not be tolerated. Next offense gets a temporary vacation from the site.

BEAR-AvHistory

They also use a in house 9DCT Gimmick Box on the NSX. So its obvious they can build the DCT in any power rating they want. Think the problem is the physical size & trying to get in into the TLX chassis with the V6. The new car will most likely (one would hope) be designed to take a V6/DCT power package if they want to move up the horsepower chain. The alternative would be a 2 or 2.5 Turbo with the 9DCT.

Have driven a 2.5L Turbo with a 7DCT in another brands 3000lbs car & it had performance level that just aced out a 6.2LStingRay Grand Sport in everything but top speed. This car was the middle of the range that has another more powerful version of the 2.5T 7DCT car, but it was not in stock.

Point is if Acura really wanted to build & could manage the production costs they could have a very quick TLX with the next generation either in I4 or V6. Gotta love those high performance gimmicks.

holografique

Would love to see:

1. This thread get back on topic (ILX Discontinued)
2. This thread moved to the ILX forum so it can be discussed by actual ILX owners.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

I would love to see Santa.
I would love to see Acura get it's groove back...

But we all know those two things arent happening

kurtatx

I would love to see
1) An ILX with an AWD platform based on the current Civic
2) No armchair moderators

How's that for on topic?

TacoBello

I want a 2G ILX, based on the Type R, with AWD.

I know. It's a pipe dream. I'd be driving at CTR right now, if I could get it in AWD.

Le Sigh.

holografique

^ ditto. I like the form-factor and nimble driving dynamics of my ILX, just needs more upscale quality and engine / drive-train options already mentioned.

And don't worry Kurt...I have no desire to "armchair moderate". I just figured there are plenty of other threads to read about the TLX...

mapleloaf

There is a whole lotta car knowledge and passion on display in this thread........ although somewhat off topic and a little too personal at times. Can I mention that the DCT in my TLX is a wonderful transmission, ditto in the ILX. That is a quick light car with the DCT and the 201 HP. I agree a more upscale interior, still reasonably priced, would make that car more attractive to the entry level luxury crowd, turbo or not.

fiatlux

I think you hit the nail on the head. If you look at the ILX as a more grown-up and nicer 9th generation Civic Si, then it's actually pretty good and meets expectations. However, if you look at it as an entry-level premium (not even luxury) car, then it's an abject failure due to the high levels of NVH and the relatively cheap interior.

CheeseyPoofs McNut

I think the future of the ILX relates to the future of the TLX which makes it relevant.

financedude

In many ways, this thread IS on topic, yet off. Lots of passion with Acura owners on here, why is that bad? I am very new to Acura, although I have come to understand it's not really a true premium brand, per say, but could be if Honda wanted it to be. For now, it fits a niche, not quite a Lexus or Audi or Porsche, but an upscale badge with some things not shared with Honda cars. The original Acura Legend was a really cool car, a buddy of mine had one and it was a blast to drive. The original NSX was a killer design. Over the years, Acura has teased us over and over. I don't quite get the downsizing of cars I guess. The TL was a nice sized car, and although it got dated people liked it. Then they downsized the Accord somewhat and the Civic, and we got the ILX and TSX. Again, Honda seems to be trying to decide what they want to be when they grow up, and they are a 31 year old brand! Their cars seem to become popular AFTER they quit making them, like the RSX. The TSX and TSX wagon were GREAT cars, IMO. Not the biggest sellers, but well made cars. The ZDX was a bad mistake, looked ugly as did the Crosstour. The RLX is intriguing but expensive. BMW and Mercedes and Lexus have no problem competing and beating the RLX. However, Honda COULD make Acura into a luxury performance brand, they have said this for years. They have done the A-Spec packages in a few models, but you don't get the REAL performance people buying that would want. Right now, Hyundai and Kia are going for it. I have seen the reviews on the G80 and G70 Genesis and Kia Stinger models, those cars are NOT junk and ARE a threat. Acura seems to be more daring in the past than now. I understand coming out with a generation 2 NSX, but at $150,000 not many buyers. Meanwhile, Audi keeps selling A4s over and over and over again. You can buy an A4 with out Quattro for about the same as a TLX. You WILL spend more to maintain an A4, but I see way more A4s than TLX in my neck of the woods, so someone is buying them. Not sure what the answer is. The ILX is ok but if I was interested in that size I would probably buy a Civic Si for less money. YMMV....

TacoBello

I'm not really even sure where to begin correcting the errors in your ginormous paragraph

WheelMcCoy

Hey, @financedude is new to Acura, and I welcome his enthusiasm. That said, @TacoBello is right and I'll start with the Civic, which actually grew larger, to the size of an old Accord. And the Accord grew larger still. The TSX was based on the Euro-spec Accord which was leaner and lighter than the U.S. Accord and that gave it superior driving dynamics. The ILX, based on the Civic platform, replaced the TSX (the arguably better vehicle) as the entry level car. And it's more or less accepted that the TLX V6 replaced the TL, while TLX 4 cylinder replaced the TSX.

financedude

I own a 2011 Honda Accord, Honda made the 2013-2017 Accord on a shorter wheelbase and an overall shorter car. I did not realize the 2018 redesign was a longer wheelbase, it's about time, the competition is more fierce than ever and they need to stay competitive. When you say the Civic grew to the size of an "old" Accord, we must be talking about Accords pre 2000? I owned a 2003 Accord, 107.9 wheelbase and 189.5 inches long versus 2018 Civic at 106.3 wheelbase and 177.9 inches long. Agree that ILX is probably not long for the Acura line. TLX is shorter wheelbase than 2018 Accord, I think it is same wheelbase platform they used for the Accord 2013-2017?

Mak P

They need to make a coupe to complete their lineup (I'm not talking about the NSX). Somebody on here said no coupes are being discontinued and yeah Honda got rid of theirs but, Lexus, MB, BMW, Infiniti, Audi all have coupes

Either that or put all the focus into the TLX and RLX, I have no problem with that

financedude

Agree, because the number of people looking for a $130,000 to $155,000 car is limited. TSX coupe would be nice, have a sport edition with more HP and better suspension, maybe a manual option...........

BEAR-AvHistory

Don't think you will see a new NSX for under $159K. The ones running discounts are the $200K versions.

financedude

Would rather pick up a used Lambo or Ferrari for that, if I had the cash. I like Acura and Honda brands a lot, but no Acura is worth $159,000, IMO...............

BEAR-AvHistory

The saving grace might be maintenance. A Ferrari or Lambo service can run up real quick. Minor every year major + minor every 3 years. Good forbid you actually break something. Tends to keep the punters out of the drivers seat. Don't know what the plan is for NSX.

Model 512/Testarossa
Oil Change $195
Annual Fluids $995
Major Service $7715
Clutch $999
Brake Pads $1395

Super Car maintenance & repair

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...h-maintenance/

TacoBello

Financedude... if you had any idea what it costs to keep a Ferrari or Lambo on the road, you wouldn't be saying that. The NSX is a bargain in comparison, and a car you can put miles upon miles on without much worry.

BEAR-AvHistory

Agree, big reason I never looked at a used one at auction. Even a sub $100K Ferrari like a 308 GTS "Magnum PI" car for $70,000. Within 3 years would probably double the purchase price in service.

TacoBello

any of those older cars with a manual transmission still, need ridiculous service intervals on the clutch. Some cars, the clutch has to be replaced every 5k or something... and it is not a cheap job whatsoever. Compared to an NSX of the same vintage, all you'd have to do is a timing belt at like 100k, or whatever their interval is.

financedude

I have a couple clients who own Lambos, and they don't seem to worry about maintenance costs. Perhaps people buying cars $150,000 or higher have enough cash to do the repairs?

financedude

I think the NSX is meant to reinforce Acura's brand message: "Precision Crafted Performance", proof they can make a high horsepower "super/muscle car" that makes Acura owners feel good about the brand. If they really want to take it to where it should go, they would expand the concept to the models they sell a lot of like MDX. Maybe an A-Spec MDX, with MORE HP? TLX A spec looks sweet, better performance on the track, cleaner, etc, but NO extra HP? What is the point?? Not like Honda can't put a supercharger or turbocharger on it, I am sure their engineers can figure that out!!

Mr Hyde

Back when the last NSX was sold, they had Integras, the RSX, the CL? along with Type-S, and Type-R (in other markets at least) variants of their sportier models. This time around, the NSX has no support. You can't have a "Precision Crafted Performance" brand message built around 1 vehicle. Audi has the R8 (for now), but also has support from several RS, and S models. The same holds true for BMW, and while Mercedes doesn't have a halo car yet, they have a rock solid base of performance variants of many of the vehicles in their lineup.

The A-spec is a nice step up from a regular TLX, but that still leaves it amongst A4s, and all 3 series as its competition. That's not a bad place to be, but they might as well ditch the Performance part of the tagline if they aren't going to make something that could go head to head with an S4/340, etc. As great as it is, I still don't understand the purpose of the NSX at the moment. Just like the original, it's pretty much sold at a loss, but unlike the original, people drawn in to the brand due to the Halo car's performance don't have any real performance options to then turn to.

I should also mark this date in my calendar, but I sort of agree with Saintor on DCTs. I do NOT think they are gimmicks though, and I think real sports cars will continue to have them since no one is going back to manuals, but for the more mainstream sports sedans like the S4, etc, the newest automatics rob much less power than they did in the past. They are also much smoother(the biggest benefit especially for cars that are supposed to be more premium feeling), and more reliable than the DCTs. Audi made the switch already, but I don't think they will be the only ones to do so.

financedude

Agree, Mercedes has AMG package, BMW has M class of cars, etc. You could have an "Aspec Sport Model" option for Acura and I am sure it would sell. Don;t let Honda have it and your truly have something different, and PERFORMANCE!

Agree, not sure why Honda doesn't go more upscale in performance with Acura engines. Maybe they are satisfied. Hyundai seems to be the innovator these days, with Genesis, Kia Stinger, etc. Hyundai Genesis G70 2018 - Details on the New 2018 Genesis G70

BEAR-AvHistory

Yeah, a few in the neighborhood but look at $250/275K for the entry level Huracan & Ferrari 488 with normal equipment a base RWD starts @ around $220 not $150K. $130/140K is 911 Carrera money not an exotic money. Ferrari is offering a 7 year maintenance deal on new cars. Its transferable to additional buyers down the line. Older car before the deal Tuff S**T.

One of the cars we run with to the Cars & Coffee is a black 458 not under the plan & the maintenance is pretty stiff but as you said if you can afford the car you can pay the bills. Nice thing about the cars is most are daily drivers not garage queens. Surprising number of car guys on the North End of Raleigh. Our sub division has 12 houses & 4 (5 if you include my cheapy) have interesting cars in the garage. One has a hydraulic lift that we use on occasion.

What is interesting is in the 3G era this area was over run with TL's not uncommon to see 4 or 5 at a traffic light during rush hour. There were still a lot of 3G during the early 4G era & the 4G never really sold well here. Now the only one left is a white one 4G across the street. There were always a lot of BMW & MB's but Audi has made huge inroads. Almost like a lot of people swapped their TL's for Audi's.

financedude

I am not sure of A4 sales numbers but there are a LOT of them running around my town, along with C300's. Lots of BMW X vehicles too, X1, X3, X5. A few ES350 and GS350. I only have seen two TLX in the past year. One of my friends owned a TL for 7 years, hated the look of the TLX, and bought a Sonata Limited..........