Colin

Indeed. In a world of near 300 HP family sedans, things happen much faster these days. I had an MR-2 Supercharged followed by an MR-2 Turbo. The Turbo was a superior car in every way but the SC was more fun. It was always lingering in the back of my mind that an accident in the Turbo would be more serious and be far more costly than one in the SC.
We seem to be requiring more driver training here, xx number of classroom and xx hours of driving instruction. I'm not sure it's making things any safer since it seems like fatalities are relatively stable (seat of the pants guess). Of course there are no provisions for high performance driver training, and this could/should be an area for improvement.

BEAR-AvHistory

Noticed when I lived in the UK that most expats from here took a number of shots before they were able to pass the driving test. Its very rigorous & makes ours to be the joke it is.

fsttyms1

100% Instead of the useless drivers ed that kids have to take, all courses should be something like the Tire Rack offers.

http://www.tirerack.com/features/mot...t_survival.jsp

Our system is very flawed, and its too cheap and easy to get a license.

fsttyms1

More class time of what they are teaching isnt helping, and the behind the wheel training is horrid at best. (from having 2 kids go thru it in the past 3-4 years) Less fatalities comes down to the safer vehicles. Training doesnt have to be high performance training. Too many think that the Skip Barber and like courses are to learn how to race. While they help that area, what they really teach is awareness and vehicle control, something that Drivers Ed doesnt teach.

http://www.tirerack.com/features/mot...t_survival.jsp

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Not to get too far off topic, but the reason that fatalities are fairly stable is that the cars are getting increasingly safer. More people walk away from crashes that should have killed them. Instead of fatalities, we should be looking at accident rates, even minor ones, which I suspect is up in large part due to an increase in distracted driving and a larger number of drivers who get their license later in life and are thus exempt from the more stringent training requirements or graduated licensing.

neuronbob

Agree. I just did the Acura high performance course at Mid-Ohio two weekends ago. I wish I had done an HPDE 20 years ago. It would have made me a mischief better driver. I also appreciate how difficult driving on the track at high speed for extended periods really is.

When my son is of age, he will do the young driver's program at Mid-Ohio.

BEAR-AvHistory

Agree, my whole family but one has been through the BMW course in SC. Last one, my granddaughter, goes when I pick up the 435 next month. Haven't seen any BMW's upside down; or outside of the Army any other car that I can remember but the courses are worth whatever the fee is.

One fast lap with a instructor driving & most self described "I am a very good driver" realize how much they don't really know. Hot laps are fun but the most important thing to take from the course is car control for DD.

fsttyms1

i love hearing drivers who have never attended any type of performance driving class or any track events claim that they are great drivers and know what they are doing

Nexx

finally someone with some logic and common sense.

mylove4cars

1. Accepted, still working on my English, try to do my best.

2. Yes, this is correct.

3. All good George, like I said (my English)

4. Did not say anything, mentioned little for me. Tl Gen 4 FWD - Tl Gen 4 SH-AWD - RLX P-AWS (Tires All-Season)

5. Similar statement is made on more than one place.

6. Yes, some people have the impression that P-AWS is almost the same than SH-AWD or an other vehicle with AWD because some members on forums plus the nonsense going around the internet advertise as such; which I believe is a dangerous statement for safety of others. An example would be; taking you're RLX P-AWS out on this nice nature enchanting snowy day ending in a disaster because of misconception. (Btw. the track I drive on is 12.2 miles and is our own private property) existing of concrete, asphalt, caliche, and small patch of dirt. This gives us a pretty good conception of any vehicle's capabilities (we have 4 seasons - Winter with limited snow).

7. Maybe we did, I spent time on every major track in Europe. I was born there and lived there for almost 45 years. (my first language and others are Flemish/Dutch - S. Afrikaans - French - German - English)

holografique

^ Oh FFS give it a rest already with the safety crap. Just because someone (like myself) says "PAWS feels similar to SH-AWD" doesn't mean that I'm creating some zombie army of drivers that are gonna go out there and wreck havoc because they tried to push their PAWS vehicle like an AWD/SH-AWD vehicle.

You wanna know what's dangerous? Drunk drivers, asshole drivers, texting while driving, big fat-tires on the highway. That's dangerous. Making a comment on a forum of other CAR ENTHUSIASTS about the slight similarities in PAWS vs SH-AWD is NOT dangerous. Get a grip.

mylove4cars

You are changing topic holografique, we are talking about P-AWS - SH-AWD - FWD and try to compare the differences, no more no less.

Colin

...and I think it's been fully discussed at this point, don't you?

mylove4cars

I agree and disagree to a certain extend (Lol)

TLX'S - V6 - 420HP 410 Torque SH-AWD 6 or 7 MT enhanced sport suspension and Looking a bit like the prototype, hence needs exhaust... with some aftermarket.... I hope you agree and don't disagree (Lol) No Turbo's this time - To change the subject

George Knighton

Okay. That's clearer; however, I think that many of us would dissent from the view that this is an appropriate comparison.

Going to the RLX Advance P-AWS from a TL 6-6 SH-AWD, I'd say size of the vehicles and the related dynamics are very different, IMHO.

It's fashionable to refer to a mid-size universal "platform" for Hondas and Acuras, so we would be led to believe that the RLX, 4G TL, and 8G Accord would be all basically the same. This was propagated this year by a Honda engineering department employee speaking with Jeff Palmer, a very popular pro-Honda enthusiast and commentator. I wish he had not done that, and I wish that Jeff had not spoken of it in several venue, because it has caught on and I believe that it misleads people.

It's appropriate for engineering and manufacturing to refer to this as the same platform, but it's irrelevant and misleading to enthusiasts and dealers. That's just one dumb old man's opinion, of course, that this single manufacturing platform is modified so very much for the different projects, lines and sales that it's really no longer relevant to act as if it is the same "platform" in the hands of the dealers and purchasers.

But they're really not so similar, IMHO.

Whether or not it made sense for Honda to produce the RLX (5G Legend) in the way that they did is clearly debatable judging from the sales figures, but the suspension is unique. The 4G TL and Accord did not have the same kind of reactive dampers or multi-ball joint, ulti-composition A arms, even if you could make the argument that the pickup points for the front suspension appear to be in basically the same place.

And it seems to me that you could not really argue that the pickup points for the rear suspension are in the same place at all, there being quite a bit of difference between the rear suspension of the 5G Legend and the 4G US TL and 8G Accord.

It's easy for me to look under an 8G Accord and see the similarity to the 4G US TL. It's much, much harder for me to look under a 5G Legend and see how it resembles an 8G Accord...much harder.

Even though I now understand more completely what it was that you are talking about, I continue to view your comparison as less apt and less useful to the public than what you wanted it to be. And I would continue to dissent from a view that P-AWS is a "mimic" of a handling attribute, since it very clearly changes where the car's nose is pointing. If it alters the car's attitude and causes it to point toward an apex instead of outboard of it, then it's clearly accomplishing something and not pretending that it is accomplishing something.

Perhaps we should concentrate on things with which we agree: We would both prefer SH-AWD on any platform, if we could get it.

:-)

mylove4cars

I agree and disagree to a certain extend (Lol). This country needs more driving schools (track driving) (defensive driving) and the likes; awareness how important tires are, the mall parking's look like horror movies to me, I see to many coffins on wheels, more than half of the cars drive on slicks or close to. I can write a list a mile long, maybe I do so another time and steer the pot on this issue.

Most blame speed; I spent hundred thousand's of miles on the German autobahn less than half deadly accidents per driver % than in the US. (Most part of the German autobahn has no speed-limit as you most likely know)

I also see to many Fiat 600 and other Dinky-Toys lately, technology and engineering is saving the day more horsepower and decent mileage per gallon will help. I do not like to see another Europe with gas over $10 a gallon in most countries and insurances 6 times the price than in the US.

Btw. George, Tl FWD Versus RLX P-AWS give it @ shot at 9/10 :-)

mylove4cars

^^^Let me clear this up.

I also see to many Fiat 600 and other Dinky-Toys lately in the US which is not a good thing. (Politics & Petroleum in 1973) changed most part of the World's economy, affecting and scarred the US & Europe in a devastating way. (Patterns are similar and its scary)

Technology and engineering is saving the day more horsepower and decent mileage per gallon will help to keep us in decent cars.

I do not like to see the US become another Europe with gas over $10 a gallon and insurances 6 times the price than in the US.

internalaudit

Seems like there will only be two trims with SH-AWD:
http://www.hondanews.com/channels/ac...g-and-epa-data

I thought that with the TL SH-AWD, there was one without the technology or advance package.

Colin

^^This is not a surprise. I think I wrote about that back in March. 2 Trims for 4 cylinder, 3 for FWD V-6 and 2 for AWD V-6. The 4 cylinder doesn't get an Advance, and the V-6 AWD doesn't get a base. I think it's the right decision for the V-6, nobody bought a base AWD anyway, but I think they could sell some Advance 4 cylinders if they offered it.