svtmike

Eighth place, not bad!

kurtatx

TLX can't even beat a more expensive Jetta

Honestly? Behind Q50, ATS? That's awful

Christopher.

They need to do another version of this chart without the transmission problems considered, because Acura is replacing transmissions and giving those 10 year warranties to address the problem.

And I'm sorry, I just do not believe that an Audi is close to Lexus in reliability, I don't buy it. Nope.

Remind me: come back in 5 years and post my maintenance records and you can post yours for your Audi A4.

I mean, I would think that we should expect close to Japanese level quality from a German made car, but years of past history with VW & Audi high maintenance costs and those issues have all suddenly been fixed at Audi? How?

Logically, I understand the flaws with "anecdotal" evidence, but, both my 2008 Japan made Scion xD at 100K miles and my father's Toyota Camry @ well over 100K miles had not needed any repairs, no maintenance beyond oil changes, brake pads, new tires, and a new battery (oh, and he had to replace a rusted exhaust flex joint) - but, my Golf GTi and my father's Passat both needed hundreds of dollars or more of repair work beyond routine maintenance at under 50K miles to the point that we decided to trade them in or sell early out of fear for what we would be facing in the years to come, in terms of unpleasant repair costs. I know that people snap up old high mileage accords quickly because of their reputation for continued reliability.

Yeah, this 2015/16/17 transmission issue with Acura TLXs is a big deal, but they're taking care of them, right? Has Honda/Acura quality really declined that much, or are there Russian Trolls being hired by VAG/BMW/Mercedes/Toyota to secretly undermine Acura's rep?

edit: Meanwhile, for the next couple years I will be anxiously awaiting the discovery that the dealer had drugged me, and what I bought was not actually a "Precision-Crafted Performance" automobile, but rather, a giant silver painted hollow turd on wheels... If I do, I'll change the little sticker on the back from saying "TLX" to: "TOW", which, would be double appropriate presuming I'll frequently be having it towed in for repairs? However, what I hope is that I will find this car to be a reliable pleasure to own for years...

svtmike

Beautiful illustration of cognitive dissonance, right there.

And yet there the data is. And it's not an isolated instance of the same conclusion.

I hope that your car is reliable. I certainly hope that it never gets towed (a low bar). I haven't called a tow truck since I traded in my last GM/Ford/Chrysler vehicle and started buying Honda, then Acura, then VW (Golf Mk VII TDI which convinced me the Audi certainly could be very high quality/reliability), and then Audi.

kurtatx

TacoBello

You cant say "do another version of this chart that shows issues, by taking a known and common enough issue out of consideration". That's called moving the goal posts. If I buy a brand new car, I don't want the transmission replaced. Ever. I don't want to argue with a dealership about it. I don't even want to ask. I don't want to be stranded on the side of the road, I don't want to wait for a tow truck, I don't want to waste my time dealing with something that shouldn't be an issue, and I sure as hell don't want to have a car that needed a new transmission, because it destroys resale value.

So yes, in my mind, if it's an issue it belongs on that list, regardless if there is a fix or not. Every trip to the dealer, no matter how quick or small, is still an inconvenience.

You also display what is known as "car stigmas die hard" syndrome. It's understandable. Cars are a big expensive purchase and we don't want to make a bad one.. so we are very slow to let go of the past... just like Acura and Honda are STILL considered to be the most reliable brands, when they are FAR from it anymore. They aren't horrendous. But they are a figment of what they once were. It's the same with people who still think Hyundai's are junk, and Audi's are unreliable.

Finally, what do Toyotas built in Japan have anything to do with an Acura built in north America?

TacoBello

FYI- Volkswagens still suck. Audis are pretty dang good. True story.

BEAR-AvHistory

It does not work that way. Back when the E series 335 BMW when barffing up their high pressure fuel pumps left & right they took the hit even though they were also replacing them & issuing extended warranties on all cars equipped with them.

We all have our personal beliefs on surveys based on experience. Mine is 5 BMW's & no major reliability hits or out of pocket service expenses. 1 TL with a number of major faults. ACURA made good on all of them so I had no major unplanned expenses . I did have a lot of normal items I had to pay for like oil changes, brakes changes, filters, wipers etc that would have cost me more if I did not do them myself on the TL. They were all covered under BMWs warranty.

Anyone who has been watching the surveys over the past 5 years will notice a very real shift in the rankings with most all the German brands moving up.

One of the real unpublicized facts about Honda is going back over 10 years they pretty much suck at building a reliable transmission. Acura 2 3 & 5 have had both manual & AT trans issues. 4 had bad Torque converters. Honda cars had a string of AT fails leading to a lost class action suit which resulted in compensation, rebuilds & extended warranties.

All companies have issues & I don't think anyone of them is bullet proof.

pyrodan007

Besides the well known transmission problems, the TLX has a nasty issue when battery is low that car flags every warning possible while driving and dies. This still makes no sense to me since alternator should very well handle the load until engine is shut off. If you feel we're Russian trolls, by all means keep on thinking so. In the meantime, I've moved on to something that is proven to be better built. To prove a point, my brother thought my Audi was money wasted ... until he drove it. He's now willing to buy it off when my lease ends, NEVER mentioned getting my TLX.

My post is not to sale the A4, that's for people to try out. It's to break the mantra that Acura's are more reliable compared to everything on the market. Not at all true now a days.

Christopher.

Yeah, that's the story (what Bear says) I hear consistently over and over, either reading about long term analysis, or general personal opinions (throwing out the few outliers of people that just had terrible luck with their car).

And that is: Audi/BMW do not make bad unreliable cars, they simply have a relatively high cost of ownership both initially and over time. Toyota/Lexus have for years, and probably will continue to have significantly lower cost of ownership over time, and Acura would be in the middle/pretty good if we don't find another major set of problems from their cars like these transmission nightmares they've been having.

Acura does come with a good long power train warranty though. Since the ZF transmission problems seem to be almost all traced back to either A) a faulty part that's been revised or B) Programing, and the V6 engine in the TLX is a very tried-and-trusted long used design, I think, over time, Acura will recover their reputation for reliability and they just need to breath a little excitement back into the brand with a new, more powerful engine TLX model within the next couple years... As long as that new engine isn't a fuck up...

svtmike

If I could find a Lexus whose interior or handling I could abide, I might try one.

I've never found one that I considered worthy of its lower cost of ownership.

BEAR-AvHistory

Would agree about brand recovery. Putting out a string of good units will do wonders. Negative large scale publicity can kill a brand or cripple it for a long time even when the product was either badly treated nor deserved the publicity.

Chevy Corvair was killed by Ralph Nader with the book "Unsafe at any speed" even though the type of swing axle suspension in Nader's tests was no longer used in the car. The last few years of the car were like a poor mans Porsche but is was still pronounced dead & buried. Audi had the infamous "unintended acceleration" issue spread by 60 Minutes which also almost put them out of the US market, but they hung in & are now probably one of the fastest rising lux brands. But it has taken a lot of years & investment to come back.

The German brands suck & you will be sorry was also a prevalent theme here when someone announced a move to one. Not sure why that was but it happened in 99% of the I got a new car threads. Maybe it was because ACURA was pushing so hard for brand equality with them.

Christopher.

I should re-phrase that like this: I think Acura hit a rough patch that has seriously tarnished it's standing both it's reputation among many enthusiasts, and, on charts like this - but - is that still relevant 2018 models? The ZF transmission is the same brand as used in other highly regarded premium brand automobiles, and (AFAIK) Acura has addressed the two main problems.
Yes, I understand that it must have been quite unpleasant to have been one of those affected 2015 TLX customers.

I won't say Audis are unreliable, just that they're expensive to own, over time, on average.

TacoBello

So what you're looking for is a value proposition. You want it all, without the cost. I dunno if that exists. In a limited capacity, sure, Acura fits that... kind of.

You might be surprised with the cost of ownership of a new Audi, over the first five years. I'm sure you know a guy who knows a guy that had a bad time, but let's be honest- every brand has that. Also, we are talking about recent audis. Like, from the last 2 years. Maybe 3. Granted, it hasn't been a ton of time, but thus far, outlook seems pretty good.

Christopher.

As to the Audi cost of ownership I'm not going with anecdotes, I'm going with large scale survey reports.

Yes, the "pipe dream" that I really wanted, wast the TLX with a 3.0T engine, for the same price. Can't get that, was limited to $500/month financing for the new car and didn't want to lease.

If they released an ILX "Type S" based on the performance of the Civic Type R, but with the refinements offered by Acura, and sold it for $40K, that would be exactly what I wanted.

BEAR-AvHistory

Same brand two very different boxes. The ZF8 is a heavy duty longitudinal mount (RWD) 8 speed that runs heavy duty but standard design internals running 600ft lbs is some applications.

The 9ZF was based off a regular duty transverse (FWD application) mount. Two problems before you even get to the software. Its a FWD box so its not designed to take any real horsepower. Second is the biggy. This is ZF's blurb "The first-ever use of interlocking dog clutches in a passenger car powershift transmission" One time I will second guess the engineers. To get the timing right so that the dog clutches will engage is pretty complex because there are no sycros to smooth the way in. Its all up to timing that's why they need to slow the shifts down & why sometimes it does not know what gear to select.

They wanted a cheap solution that would fit in the car with a 9th gear for bragging rights. In hindsight it was not a good plan.

To put it politly the screwed the pooch with this one. The trick was to make it light, simple (so it would fit) & inexpensive due to the cars it was going in.

The ILX is closer to a tricked out Civic then the TLX is to the Accord. At best is a badge engineered car. Would be very very hard to come up with the Acura type refinement you are looking for.

Christopher.

1) Use the same engine and breaks as the Civic Type R - acceleration will be lower in the Acura due to increased mass, but still will have very good performance.
2) Make it SH-AWD
3) Use high strength steel to build the frame giving it more rigidity than the Civic
4) The performance of the Type R suspension is more than adequate - add something like active damping to allow for a smoother "Acura quality" ride
5) Fill the hollow spaces with noise deadening foam, add improved cabin air seals and other noise reduction measures
6) make it look almost like a miniature TLX, but, slightly more aggressive styling that hints at LeMans, or Lambo inspiration

BAM!!! You've not only just caught the Audi S4, you've tipped your fedora as you comfortably surpass it.

BEAR-AvHistory

Think you just broke you budget. Would take some major re-engineering to make a FWD an AWD if not originally designed to do that. Ditto to make it look like a TLX It not as easy as you seem to think it is to make these types of changes. You are looking at about an 80% redesign. Might as well build a whole new car.

Christopher.

So everyone that's saying things like "Why buy a TLX when it's just a fancy Accord" is basically being completely non-nonsensical?

Can you honestly say that the TLX is "80 percent different" from an Accord V6?

Obviously, for each change, you do a cost/benefit analysis. I think there is still a lot to be saved by re-using engine and chassis parts/tooling/transmission - from what you're saying it would seem that perhaps trying to go AWD is not worth the price, except: then why did they make an AWD HRV and CRV? (And TLX) Look at the price of vehicles like the HRV and CRV - obviously Honda can do these things cost effectively.

If you can't justify the cost of an exterior refresh from the current ILX, becuase you anticipate low sales quantity, then you just go with those changes that are available to you in a cost effective way (such as the change to the grill on the 2018 TLX).

An ILX refresh implementing the improvements already designed, developed, implemented, and tested on the Type R along with addressing some key perceived shortcomings of the ILX could, potentially, deliver an Audi S4 beating package. (At least from the perspective of some driving enthusiast consumers and "young upwardly mobile" consumers who can't yet quite afford a BMW M4?).

I'm not trying to claim that the whole process will be as easy as stacking a few Lincoln Logs :P

hadokenuh

The flaw of the report = "the newest three years". Please read the fine print.

I agree the TLX is not at Acura historical reliability that is known for. But there is no way that the Audi A4 is #2. But I can understand the first 3 years, the A4 may have minimal problems. I also am aware that German cars are great in their first 3, 4 years, after that, NIGHTMARE.

In this day and age, reliability reports should be taken at minimum 5 years. But 7 year would make more sense IMO.

AZuser

So you're willing to accept as true those large scale survey reports about Audi's high cost of ownership, but at the same time you refuse to believe this Consumer Reports large scale survey report that places Acura in 8th place? Seriously?

TacoBello

TacoBello

Also, the CRV and HRV have shitty basic AWD drive systems. Not all AWD systems are the same. The TLX is light years ahead of those cars.

svtmike

That's not the flaw -- that's the scope of the report. It's kind of hard to advise new car buyers based on 5 to 7 years of data on the current model. And as for "there's no way the Audi A4 is #2", I will just direct you to view the chart again. Let it sink in.

And try not to catch a case of buyer's remorse from viewing it. If you enjoy your car, even if it isn't the seventh best product in its class, keep on enjoying it.

BEAR-AvHistory

A few quick hit. On the CIVIC AWD he was talking about the SHAWD package, neither cheap or small when adapted to the ILX shell.

Go to non fan site like C&D Backfires & see what the general population thinks about the Accord/TLX relationship. Personal story. One daughter bought a Pilot & wanted running boards. I told her not to pay the dealer quoted price & I would install a set after delivery. Half the parts bags were labeled HONDA & half ACURA.

I don't think they are bring nonsensical as the visuals of the TLX at least outside mask the commonality with ACCORD there are a huge number of common parts you never get to see. Took ACURA a long time to realize "HONDA" imprints on all the window glass was not good marketing.

Outside the fan base ACURA has not shaken the view its a high end HONDA when it starts with something as running the same V6. ACCORD gets the 10speed AT before TLX & so on. In the ILX most reviews saw more Civic than the mention in the Accord/TLX. Point is the family resemblance among the two brands has always been a knock on ACURA. Think from 30 feet away its hard to tell a ILX from a CIVIC. ACCORD/TLX do have a different look to them.

Do you think that the current commonality of the CIVIC & ILX might be the reason they can't sell any? Then figure out why people would buy your ILX+ concept over the CIVIC-R

Personal opinion, people by ACURA for the badge. If they did a spreadsheet on raw numbers no emotion involved I believe the ACCORD would win most of the time. People are buying image. My own TL buy was a visual one. Need an nice sized 4 door as a school bus, went out to buy a Honda but could not get past the styling. Joked I paid $2500 a door more for a nicer looking car.

Last thing on that is product line placement. By the time you got done tinkering with the ILX to get where you want it it would be stepping all over the TLX's price base. Why not just put some more guts into the I4 TLX & call it a day?

On the nightmare. 2004 330 ZHP 6MT convertible 10 years 130,000 mile & slept well every night. Used it as my go back home car when I took the TL in for repairs.

hadokenuh

That is in fact the flaw. Most cars are "reliable" in their first 3 or 4 years. In fact, the Germans are really good at making their cars reliable in the first 3, 4 years. Don't get me wrong, I love German cars but I would never buy anything German more than 5 years old unless the previous owner had done "all the works" to keep it running. And when people say a car is reliable, they mean it will last a LOT longer than just 3, 4 years. I may not mean anything to the original owners but that means A LOT to 2nd, 3rd owners.

If you are the kind of buyer that relies on a 3-year reliability report, good luck!

Buyer remorse? I don't own a TLX because I can't justify upgrading from my 4G TL. But yes, I would have buyer's remorse if I bought one. But I knew better.

AZuser

In other words, the Germans can make their cars be reliable for (at least) their first 3-4 years, but Acura can't.

hadokenuh

Sure. If you guys just keep arguing semantics.

Either you are too naive or just too ignorant. Or both.

pyrodan007

The TLX has three well know flaws out the door: transmission, vibration, stalling. Whether cheap or not to fix in 5+ years, that's not good for a new car out the door (no proof that all 3 were fixed, still happening). I have yet to hear of the other models in the list having critical mechanical issues. What seals the deal, trouble getting Acura to actually fix core issues based on OUR FORUM's user feedback. I believe the survey's results 100%.

Christopher.

@pyrodan007 - yes, seems like Acura screwed up with such significant flaws in the '15 (and some later model) TLX manifest in production model cars. Also, I'm sorry - OK - I won't dismiss recent years of the Audi family's improved reliability - perhaps they really have nailed down past problems and cleaned up their production so that they are not only exciting to drive cars with fine interiors, but also offering quality reliability for more than a couple years? However, long term cost of ownership and initial purchase price both will remain higher [than Acura].

I'll let you know if I see any of those issues come up in my 2018 TLX, so far it's been good.

If Acura has resolved it's design/production issues which impacted reliability [as of it's 2018 models] then they are back to a very appealing spot in terms of combining value + luxury while still missing the mark for some enthusiasts desiring a slightly higher level of performance handling and acceleration.

If I don't have some serious flaws cropping up with my transmission or other aspects of my car then I will see my 2018 TLX V6 as not only an excellent value for what it is, but an overall excellent car, with a beautiful appearance, a comfortable and quiet yet fun drive/ride.

@Bear - while the "Acura Badge" (along with the superior warranty/roadside assistance and overall purchase/ownership experience) has/had some appeal to me, I actually think the '18 TLX has a significantly superior aesthetic appeal over the '18 Accords (And '18 Audi A4 :P ) and, over time, gives me somewhat more satisfaction in ownership than the "A" symbol on the front and back of the car. For me, the size of this car really has hit a sweet spot, though I must admit, the lighter and nimbler Civic Type R is causing an aching desire in a different part of me than the part that enjoys the solid, quiet, comfort of the TLX.

Time will tell if I'm a fool for scoffing at that chart, and, stubbornly believing that my Acura TLX is going to be an excellent and reliable piece of fine machinery for years to come...

BEAR-AvHistory

Christopher, I think comparing the cost of ownership thing is a non runner. Of course a more expensive cars cost of ownership is going to more out of the box, that is why they are called luxury items. I would hope someone buying a Mercedes the cost of ownerships impact on his standard of living is no greater then the impact of someone buying a CIVIC. You can either afford something or you can't. If it in anyway dings your standard of living you should be looking for a less expensive car.

Pretty sure most owners of most cars are not thinking WOW the cost of ownership of that lump out in the driveway is killing me. My monthly is deducted from my account & I never think about the money once I make a deal till its time for the next car. Then my goal is buy exactly what I want as cheaply as possible. Nothing changed since I was 18 & bought my first car.

Agree with you on the visual gratification level. As I said I spent an extra $5K on a TL simply because it looked better. Think when it was time for the TL to go & I only had TL level money to spend I would have bought an ACCORD for no other reason then I thought the 4G-TL looked pretty bad. Car visuals are personal thing & everyone has there own opinion of what is a good looking car. Would never drive something I did not like to walk up to.

For vehicle size its pretty easy to make a case for the ACCORD. Same base footprint more useable interior space. That's what I meant by a dispassionate decision on the two cars using a spread sheet. Think the top of the line ACCORD would win but you might say screw it the TLX is so pretty.

svtmike

WheelMcCoy

But wasn't that the TLX's original mission? Be exciting? Recover Acura's lost reputation? Don't forget Acura shook up their TSX, TL, and RL lineup in hopes for a sense of renewal. They produced the ILX, TLX, and RLX, only to rank near the bottom in customer love. It's been painful for me to watch.

Here are some suggestions to bring back the fun:
Bad-ass electric vehicle: EV-ILX
Car for the mother-in-law: BA-TLX
Car for the well-heeled: RO-LX

niray9

For me to bring back fun on a Acura TLX 2.4 Acura needs to:

1. Reduce body roll on turns(higher speed) - Mountain/canyon carving
2. Higher 0-60 speeds
3. Higher torque @2000 rpm when cruising @60-65mph

Christopher.

1) I need to push my TLX a lot harder on some ramps before I can really judge, but so far (650 miles into ownership) I feel a lot less body roll on my TLX than I did on my Golf GTi.
2) Well, you did buy the 2.4? But,
3) Both your #2 and #3 points can be addressed by going with Honda's new 2.0T engine.

They should absolutely release a "Sport" version of the TLX (without raising the cost the way they did with the "A Spec") and give it the 2.0T engine and a stiffer "sport" suspension, and, optional 6 speed manual transmission. At the same time, they could release a high end 3.0T "Type S" premium version of the TLX. Both should come with beefed up anti-roll. Imagine if they made the Sport RWD? (Instead of AWD, to make it affordable?).

They should add adaptive (active) suspension and LSD to the "Type S" edition, or perhaps SH-AWD only on that one?

F23A4

Everyone is entitled to their opinions even if they are baseless at times. However, I suppose that after a comparison of my life in Excel versus that of Steve Jobs at my age or Elon Musk, it's probably fair to conclude that I am an abject failure in life. Fortunately, life cannot be accurately evaluated by data points in .xls and I'm pretty certain my children probably prefer me as their father over the two previously mentioned gentlemen. (But who knows, maybe your spreadsheet could compel them to see the error of their ways.)

As one coming from a 9th Accord to the TLX which is based on the former (of which I drove the 2.4 but purchased the 3.5 FWD), the TLX has a number of attributes that make it "better" (really, more of a differentiation) than 9G Accord. Attributes such as handling, braking, acceleration, cabin noise, longer warranty all the while not giving up much to the Accord in areas such as fuel economy and ride quality. (Aesthetics are subjective, but IMHO the 9G Accord Sport/Touring is just as attractive as any version of the TLX....sorry A-Spec guys.)

Probably the only area where my Accord was superior is when it comes to utility. Quite simply, it has more passenger room and cargo capacity. But the trade off has shown itself to be more than fair.

niray9

Actually #2 is fixed a lot(for me) in the sport mode. Also, Most Turbo 4s nowadays have @250HP. On hindsight... #2 should be #3 for me.

#1 is much worse than the 2012-2014 TL. Actually(IMO) it is worse than the 2002 Nissan Altima(2.5) that I owned earlier.

Test drove the latest GTI(2015) when I was shopping and felt other than power+torque it wasn't that impressive(IMO).

svtmike

Christopher.

Strange - video reviews I watched and reviews I read where the reviewers stated that they had previously owned an Acura TL noted noticeably superior handling with the TLX?

Yes, that's right - (about my old Golf GTi).

I can't find any head-to-head comparisons between an Acura TLX (V6) and a similarly priced BMW or Audi where the TLX does not turn in superior track times. However, I do assume, that if you can afford to pay a little more, the German options offer a more satisfying ride for the driver looking for sports car performance.

And, even without paying more, there are both German and Japanese options delivering more exciting handling and/or a faster car, with options such as the Honda CTR, MazdaSpeed 3, and recent Golf GTi. Perhaps a ~2 year old off lease 3.0T engine equipped Audi S4/5 or BMW will deliver more thrill for your money too.

But, the TLX does have a nice big trunk still and the passenger space is quite comfortable, unless your passenger is pretty tall? The size of the TLX has hit a pretty sweet spot for me, I have to admit. I like it just where it's at, in terms of size, cargo space, and interior roominess. I do miss the extra cup holder on the door that my minivan had, but I'll get over it.

Studies of "10 year average cost of ownership", and, viewing Acura's recent TLX transmission problems as a hiccup (albiet a serious one) rather than consistent long term performance over the years. But I will tell you that you (and some other folks) have managed to convince me to keep my extended warranty

CheeseyPoofs McNut

I too came from a 9th gen Accord. I had a 13 EXL that I drove for almost exactly two years before trading for the TLX. If it were all about value (running the spreadsheet) I certainly would have kept the Accord. Truth is I was tired of the "firm" ox-cart ride of my Accord. The TLX rides much better, it's also more quiet. Has better quality interior materials (not blow-you-away better but it is nicer. Still nicer than the 10th Gen Accord I recently sat in too) and it offers the DCT over the CVT in the Accord. No more rubber band transmission - although I thought the CVT in the Accord wasn't bad. I wanted to buy a Lexus (the king of quiet and ride comfort) but couldn't get past the awful grill and "old man" interiors. The TLX, while not perfect, was a nice upgrade for me. Note - if I were looking for a true sport sedan I likely would have gone a different direction.