boe_d

I find it kind of strange that they only had a prototype body ready. The 5G should have been in design about a year after the 4G flopped for general acceptance. I could understand the engine taking a while to design for new engineering tech but the body should have been completed years ago. Kind of reminds me of being a kid and waking up with a book report due that I had all summer to write but hadn't finished reading the book yet.

Just my mind wandering as I wait to see the final TLX.

weather

^^ I am not sure I understand what you mean by your question....Are you saying that they should have explored various iterations of the prototype? They might have done so but they would not share the rejected design. Unless you mean that why is there only 1 prototype making out to the various circuits....in other words, they only created 1 prototype to show the world.

boe_d

No, I'm saying the prototype they are just now showing off now should have been completed about 3 years ago and in January they should have been showing a production vehicle. Frankly, I'm stunned they didn't release the TLX about 2 years ago. I realize what a normal vehicle cycle is but it was time to stick a fork in the 4G TL years ago. If they are still playing with a prototype at this stage how many road miles will the production vehicle have to iron out the glitches before this final draft makes it to dealerships.

weather

^^ Oh I see. You have a good point....My gut instinct told me that they had to change course through their design of the prototype. Either the exterior was too bland, not bland enough or they had come up with wheels that looked too good and had to give their design team more time to screw up the wheel design.

Its also possible that they had to do further interior tweaks OR that they encountered some delays in trying to implement the new transmissions. I think the latter is the more likely real cause of the delays. I wasn't quite expecting the TLX to be released until this spring but I am surprised it won't be until mid-late summer before all trims are released and available.

Of course...pure speculation on my part. I am sure they didn't extend the 4G an extra year to milk the design longer as there was very poor sales of the 4G and instead of getting milk, they were getting powder.

boe_d

Ahh - that is very good reasoning. If your hypothesis is correct, I'm curious what the other prototypes looked like.

I wouldn't stick around these forums if I didn't have such high hopes. I may end up getting the Accord hybrid but I really hope they have a TLX hybrid by next summer. Maybe they'll have a beakless trim option by then.

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

This is a great description of exactly what's been happening. This company has been misdirected for quite awhile. Most recently they had a change in Acura's planning arm to respond to the dire problems this company is facing with it's sedans. Maybe that will fix their meandering or maybe not.

Honda responded immediately when their 2012 Civic flopped with an immediate revamp again in 2013. The market responded immediately to that and it saved Civic sales. So Honda knows how to do this if it wanted to. I don't know exactly why Acura didn't do the same with the 4G but it's probably because they they knew they were going to ditch the model all together and start fresh. So they kept the car at the same cycle as always and it gave them time to develop the TLX. They were looking forward to revamp everything with ILX, RLX and progress to TLX and not look back. They just didn't realize how badly those cars would become duds. Sales have been disappointing and this is just the beginning. This is when they should sell if ever. It's only gonna get worse for those 2 models. If it wasn't for the MDX this company would be in BIG trouble right now. Trust me, Acura is scared and the TLX is going to be a HUGE deal for them.

What I think is concerning is that the company still thinks it knows best. History should tell them to listen to their customers. That's why I feel like this is ALREADY a mistake in the making. What they could have done was slowly leak some concept designs in late 2013 to gauge public reaction. THEN start honing in on this and that and getting it perfect for these auto shows. INSTEAD what they did was do a big dramatic unveil at the autoshow. They were very good at leaking nothing about it. Remember that prior to that day, the best you could find is an artist rendering of what it COULD look like in relation to an RLX. I know a lot of people are thinking the production version is still undergoing major tweaking of this and that. Not possible. This car was already testing since 2013. By the time the prototype was unveiled the majority of the production car was done already. They are tweaking minor things yes. But to get 100s of vendors to redesign this and that isn't going to happen.

The prototype was meant to just hype and stimulate interest and excitement. The production version has already been in the works, pretty much a done deal, the spy cars we saw are cars just finessing software. The toned down version we are seeing is pretty much what we are getting. The car is pretty much at the point of production pretty soon.

Colin

Probably because there is a difference in the economic climate between 2009 and 2012. Also, the Civic was blasted by Consumer Reports whereas the TL was only criticized in the automotive press. Whether we agree with the weight of consumer reports, they do have a lot of influence over general consumers.

Also, (IMO) there is a little bit of "revisionist history" happening here. The 2009 TL debuted in November 2008. All of 2009 was lost to the Depression and TL production was actually closed for several months. When things got rolling again in 2010, they realized they had an issue and had styling changes ready to be delivered to dealers in February 2011 (as a 2012 model). And of course, in March 2011, the tsunami in Japan happened and this further hampered sales and quite possibly set the entire TLX timeline back by several months. How long will they continue to feel the ripple effect (no pun intended) from that tragedy is unknown but if we assume that the vehicles are released when they're ready and not held on the shelf till some arbitrary point, I can only guess they're working as fast as they can to get the car out as soon as possible.

As for prototype versus production. The prototype has been manufactured using production tooling. Things like sheetmetal, glass, moldings, all had to be finished far in advance of the prototype debut. The age old saying, "the die is cast" has never been more true. Once you make the dies that are used to stamp the sheet metal, that car is done. It has been suggested on TOV that they are refining shift control software for the all-wheel-drive cars which could explain why these are coming a little later.

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

Yes you are definitely right, CR is a BIG influence. It is practically like the "Yelp" of the automotive industry and can literally make or break a product/brand. I think the people who can read those reviews side by side with a review of an Oster Blender think of cars just like that. They aren't enthusiasts that read MT or C&D, they treat their cars as an appliance.

From what I've read, the 2012 Civic was a cold reception from BOTH the press and the public. In terms of the the exterior, I actually think that original previous design of the Civic was the best because it was clean. 2012 sucked all around. 2013+ REALLY improved the interior. Personally I don't think the exterior is anything great but overall people seem to like it and it is selling ok.

I realize Honda and the other companies that assemble cars in Japan were affected by the Tsunami but why the TL? It's assembled here. Unless it affected some Japanese suppliers?

My opinion about the 4G is actually opposite yours. The press criticized the 4GTL LESS than the general public. The biggest complaint about the 3GTL was torque steer. The press was SO happy to see the SH-AWD cure that. The styling of the front beak was mildly criticized but they judged the car as a package and definitely called it a step above the 3GTL. The general public however?; ha. I have NEVER heard a single person say a positive thing about the 4GTL. Most will say it was a step down from the 3GTL. They wouldn't know any better, about what the car offers, just the styling itself turns them off. I know many people who went to the dealer thinking about buying and walked away just because of that. Me, myself; I also can't get over the styling but at least I can give credit to the car knowing that it is a good car because of driving a SH-AWD. But only here on AZine have I heard of people liking the styling. And they are usually owners. The evidence that the public doesn't like the 4GTL is obvious by the numbers. The facelift is MUCH better but that 2009 model was horrible.

Before I get attacked, I'm talking the stock 4G. Yes the car can look good with heavy custom mods, I've seen a few on our forum that are outstanding. It just takes work.

Rocket_man

But there is strategy here too that has to be taken into account. Acura wanted to move all production to North America due to the (at the time) poor exchange rate. So that meant the TLX needed to be based on the new Accord (i guess it's always been this way). That has only been out a year. I think this timing between the Accord cycle and TL cycle is about normal. They did a minor refresh of the TL in 2012, but I doubt there was the money or resources to do much more. They also decided to squeeze in the new ILX and RLX before the TLX. Regardless of the outcome that used up a lot of resources.

I think the TLX timing makes sense to me. I just hope it is a car I will want to buy.

KeithL

The 4G TL and I believe the 3G TL were based on the then current Accord and made in same plant in Ohio. I believe 2 factors delays the cars. First the Tsnami and then Honda reacting to similar feedback for both the Accord and TL. The last gen accord was often criticized for being too large and bulbous, the 4G TL was also blasted for getting too big and then of course the styling. Between natural disaster, economy and negative feedback I think it took them longer than usual to resolve both cars.

George Knighton

The final version has been produced in small quantities with the four cylinder already, and the photographs are floating around here and elsewhere. I haven't spoken with anybody in a while but I suspect that enough time has passed that the factory has produced a few 9 speed P-AWS J Motor cars, too.

The reason you saw the red car the way that you did is because it was supposed to be very close to the production nose, but at the last minute their customer reviews seemed to show that the nose was a little aggressive.

So it was labelled prototype.

The final version has a softer nose and with the canards removed in order to appeal to a slightly more mature audience.

Unfortunately, that is also an audience that is unlikely to be using this forum and similar venue (despite the obvious fact that a few of us are here). So Acura's going to get more or less crucified in print whether or not it is a good design.

Welcome to the public forums medium. :-)

Do you mind if I ask you why you believe the crisis in Japan slowed down the North American team's TLX efforts?

boe_d

They managed to hear people about the nose but not about the beak? I'm thinking Acura has selective hearing.

Ken1997TL

Every TL from the 1999 model year has been built in Ohio and based upon the Accord platform. So basic underpinnings and chassis are either shared or very similar.

Ken1997TL

As for the 'delays' in the TLX, it's all part of a plan to include the absolute latest powertrain technology from Honda.

Both engines and transmissions were the 'delaying' factors, the car's design was locked in a couple years ago.

weather

^^^ You pretty much said the same thing as I did. Glad I am not alone sharing this opinion....

Colin

Yes, it's a global supply chain and they had components on hand to make TLs for about 3 months after the Tsunami but then some models ceased production. Also, don't forget the Thailand flooding which idled a semi-conductor plant that was needed for parts. I think the Honda Fit April Fool video said there are "180,000 parts that go into a car"... if you're missing just one, you can't roll the assembly line. It could be something as low tech as a speedometer needle!

As I understand it, an important R&D center was one of the hardest hit by the earthquake. Since the TLX is the first to use the new advanced transmissions, it makes sense that it would have been the most affected by the loss of research resources.

IMO, there probably wasn't a lot of R&D involved to get the ILX (and might explain why it has the engines it does) and RDX out the door. Each of these 2013 launches uses off the shelf components.

The 2014 MDX and RLX got were first to get the new ED engines but continued with existing 6 speed automatics. I would guess that these projects were closer to completion in March '11.

And this brings us the the 2015 TLX with one 'new' ED 4 cylinder and two new transmissions (Also the RLX Hybrid seems to be very late and it uses the new 7DCT, another case of the newest tech being affected more).

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

Advanced transmission? Before they start making 10-speed transmissions they should try making one that lasts 75k miles first. How I wish they could just slide a manual in there.

With all this "lessening aggression and hiding tail pipes" I feel like Acura was looking for it's identity and found it in Lexus's old cushy slot of being more on the lux side. If only they could look a few years in it's own past to see what worked. What ever happened to making a real sport sedan?

Yawn. Excuse me while I browse some 2011 E92 M3s for the same money.........

Colin

^^^ I guess we're done with thoughtful discussion then...

Ken1997TL

@

George Knighton

You were expecting it, though, right?

Ahh. I see.

It probably kept the ZF gearbox out of the RLX, and I can understand why you'd think it slowed down the 8 speed in the four cylinder TLX.

That makes sense.

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

I think what I said is very thoughtful. We don't have to always look to Acura to save the day with what we tend to perceive is a better car. Yes my TL is still the best car I've owned overall. But I am disappointed with a tranny headache right now. I came from a BMW that had the same problem, but I was expecting better reliability with this one. So my opinion of this company is not the same as it was 4yrs ago. I would have been more likely to be a repeat customer. But I'm not going to settle for the nameplate itself this time. The TLX needs to be a breakthrough for me to buy it.

I know everyone wants to be optimistic and have faith in Acura. But the company has changed. Most of what they have done lately is predictable. That prototype did wow me, that was one thing that was a welcome surprise. It shows there are still some people in that company that want to bring back something exciting and that there is hope. There are some higher powers that haven't left yet though. They want to keep things going on a track that isn't my style. I'm going to put $45K down I'm just pointing out there are better looking and better performing options out there.

We have another week. Maybe they'll unveil a SH-AWD that looks like the prototype as a surprise next to the base with all the goodies and I'll eat my shorts because I'm wrong. I just doubt it.

keith7120

The also missed the complaint of hidden tailpipes.

KeithL

Wake up man, (), snap out of it...

Acura has become so damn predictable and bland on the sedan side they are going to disappear into the fog as all the competition steps up their game. In 18-24 months when it is time for me to get out of my A6, if there is not a Type-S then I suspect I may be heading elsewhere. I am actually looking forward to Hyundai introducing an R-Spec of the new Genesis.

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

Hehe I'm awake trust me. I'm with you. Seems like a some people are still dreaming of what could be under the tape and imagining it's going to be different.

Genesis R-Spec? Didn't hear about that yet, I'll check it out. If the TLX is blah I'll be looking at coupes too. I've always had sedans, don't need 4 doors really.

KeithL

Hyundai has not announced it yet for the new Genesis, but I assume they will probably in year or so. I think they are more like Acura here, they announced the current R-Spec late in the generation. But I will say Hyundai is really stepping up their game. One of the biggest weaknesses of current Genesis was suspension and handling, and they hired Lotus to tune the new Genesis and according to intitial reviews they have done an amazing job. A loaded V6 15 Genesis with AWD and more goodies than a TLX goes for around $52K.