Any doubts on 2nd gen TLX for 2020? Err...make that 2021?
01-29-2019, 03:56 PM
#121
I don’t think there will be a hybrid TLX.
If the Type-S is delayed more than 6 months then they need 2 different I4 Turbos, one with say 250HP and another in ASPEC with 300 then do Type-S at 340-360. I don’t think they will do this and if the Type-S is 2 years later it conflicts with MMC release and a 2020 date just hurts the first 18 months of sales. The mule has been on the road, so unless they need far more testing and have likely been developing it for over 2 years then why wait?
If the Type-S is delayed more than 6 months then they need 2 different I4 Turbos, one with say 250HP and another in ASPEC with 300 then do Type-S at 340-360. I don’t think they will do this and if the Type-S is 2 years later it conflicts with MMC release and a 2020 date just hurts the first 18 months of sales. The mule has been on the road, so unless they need far more testing and have likely been developing it for over 2 years then why wait?
01-29-2019, 03:59 PM
#122
Seriously doubt that they would end production of TLX in March with a possible summer/fall release. We would see pretty much finished mules running around with camo. Unless, the next Gen will only be tweaked on the outside with major changes in power train and interior. If you look at the all new RDX and compare it to the refreshed TLX on the outside it is not that drastically different.
01-29-2019, 04:06 PM
#123
That wont happen. The base TLX 2.0t should be identical in regards to power to the RDX. The TLX is moving up in its segment. The current TLX 2.4 competes with the BMW 320i and the TLX V6 competes with the 330i. The next gen TLX 2.0t will compete with the 330i and the TLX-S 3.0t will compete with the M340i. We will see the pricing structure push upward a bit in regards to base price and more so on the top end but it’ll still be much less expensive vs the comparably equipped Europeans by a good amount. Acura will still hold a solid value equation.
01-29-2019, 04:08 PM
#124
On SUV Acura does compete with BMW (mid pack X5 and MDX, feasible comparison), on sport sedans it does not.
Dodge is selling 50 grand Chargers all the time (Charger did +20% in 2018 vs. 2017, despite the sedan crisis and FCA cut to fleet sales), Kia is doing fine with the Stinger, I see a lot of them on the road, including the GT.
Not many people spent that kind of coin on an Audi 15 years ago, now they do
Right content at the right price does sell.
Dodge is selling 50 grand Chargers all the time (Charger did +20% in 2018 vs. 2017, despite the sedan crisis and FCA cut to fleet sales), Kia is doing fine with the Stinger, I see a lot of them on the road, including the GT.
Not many people spent that kind of coin on an Audi 15 years ago, now they do
Right content at the right price does sell.
The bulk of Charger sales are the V6 models and those are heavily discounted. Also that’s a totally different market vs a TLX. Apples to oranges.
01-29-2019, 04:10 PM
#125
01-29-2019, 04:26 PM
#126
I see quite a lot of Daytona, Scat Packs and even Hellcats around....I would say is almost easier to these and RTs than V6s in my neck of the wood.
Up to Sept 2018 FCA made 12K Scat Pack and Daytonas for the year. In 2017 FCA made a total of 25K between Hellcat, SRT 392, Daytona, Scat Pack and RT, over a total Charger sales of 68K for that year.
They are not as rare as you may think.
The right product at the right price does sale.
Last edited by 4G-Lover; 01-29-2019 at 04:35 PM.
01-29-2019, 05:01 PM
#127
Hmmm a lot of new info here. For Type S are we looking at 400hp or 350. I sure hope that it's around 400 since Acura is always behind the curve. Look at Hyundai, if they can do a compelling car G70, I don't want to see the new Type S to be slower or less capable with all new platform. That's a FAIL in my books.
01-29-2019, 08:04 PM
#128
Instructor
I'm just hoping that the transmission is good one. The current TLX is a nice car, the transmission just keeps me away from buying one. As for power, having a 2006 TL, just give me something decent. And please come out with something this year, another year and i might have to go to another brand.
01-29-2019, 09:00 PM
#129
I'm just hoping that the transmission is good one. The current TLX is a nice car, the transmission just keeps me away from buying one. As for power, having a 2006 TL, just give me something decent. And please come out with something this year, another year and i might have to go to another brand.
01-29-2019, 09:02 PM
#130
Hmmm a lot of new info here. For Type S are we looking at 400hp or 350. I sure hope that it's around 400 since Acura is always behind the curve. Look at Hyundai, if they can do a compelling car G70, I don't want to see the new Type S to be slower or less capable with all new platform. That's a FAIL in my books.
01-29-2019, 09:04 PM
#131
I see quite a lot of Daytona, Scat Packs and even Hellcats around....I would say is almost easier to these and RTs than V6s in my neck of the wood.
Up to Sept 2018 FCA made 12K Scat Pack and Daytonas for the year. In 2017 FCA made a total of 25K between Hellcat, SRT 392, Daytona, Scat Pack and RT, over a total Charger sales of 68K for that year.
They are not as rare as you may think.
The right product at the right price does sale.
Up to Sept 2018 FCA made 12K Scat Pack and Daytonas for the year. In 2017 FCA made a total of 25K between Hellcat, SRT 392, Daytona, Scat Pack and RT, over a total Charger sales of 68K for that year.
They are not as rare as you may think.
The right product at the right price does sale.
01-29-2019, 10:33 PM
#133
01-30-2019, 06:36 AM
#134
Launching an all new platform with a base 2.0T FWD is a major no no. This new generation needs all positive reviews from the start. Acura never learns. By the time Type S comes out no one will care if the base car gets slammed by the press. SMH
01-30-2019, 08:48 AM
#135
Suzuka Master
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10 years after loosing 50% of its sedan customers in one year & overall flat sales since then the last thing Acura need is another loser in sedan sales.
TLX:
2015 - 47,080
2016 - 37,156
2017 - 34,846
2018 - 30,468
01-30-2019, 11:22 AM
#136
Pro
Why do you think the 2.0T won't get positive reviews? The 2.0T in the RDX received great reviews and the 2.0T in the Accord also received very good reviews.
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a35tl (01-30-2019)
01-30-2019, 11:43 AM
#137
RDX never really suffered from a sales decline. TLX is way down. They need good press and reviews. You seriously think launching an all new platform with a base fwd model is a good idea and oh BTW Type S is coming in a year or two.
01-30-2019, 11:53 AM
#138
Pro
Also, just because there is a base FWD model, doesn't mean Acura will supply the press with one to test drive. I believe they only gave the press an AWD RDX for reviews.
Mercedes gave the press a FWD and AWD A220 and several reviews commented that the FWD was better in several aspects than the AWD.
I don't think having a FWD model will determine whether the new model is a success or not. How it drives/handles, quality of the interior, electronics, price/value will determine its success.
Also the Type S should be Q1 2020.
Last edited by hondu; 01-30-2019 at 11:59 AM.
01-30-2019, 12:52 PM
#139
Moderator
Acura's not coming out with a RWD TLX. I'm pretty sure the automotive press understands that. If they come out with a 2.0T with decent performance numbers the press will be fine with it as long as it has modern tech and a luxury-like feel to it and it sits in the right price range. See the RDX as an example.
01-30-2019, 01:37 PM
#140
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Think its an image thing. Right now Acura does not really have one. They make an excellent car for a good price that I believe nobody really looks at. There is no reason even in a smaller then ever sedan market that they are not seeing 50,000+ cars a year. The look is right, the package is right & the price is right.
Also don't think its purely a 4 cylinder thing, its not having a performance 6 cylinder thing image enhancer. The Germans live on turbo 4 to make their CAFE numbers & move a lot of cars for a lower price then the 6 cylinder turbo. The Germans also make $100,000 luxury cars which does not hurt the image thing at all.
People are brand aware & "know" the Germans makes are performance cars because the 6T's actually are & are all that get talked about. Even people buying 4's are under that umbrella many taking the emblems off for a "cleaner" look.
Think about this they sold 14,000 more 5 series cars then Acura sold TLX. Some of those cars were 4T for $70,000 & a stripper 4T is $56,000. All that gets talked about in the press is the 2.8 second to 60 M5. Image!!
Also don't think its purely a 4 cylinder thing, its not having a performance 6 cylinder thing image enhancer. The Germans live on turbo 4 to make their CAFE numbers & move a lot of cars for a lower price then the 6 cylinder turbo. The Germans also make $100,000 luxury cars which does not hurt the image thing at all.
People are brand aware & "know" the Germans makes are performance cars because the 6T's actually are & are all that get talked about. Even people buying 4's are under that umbrella many taking the emblems off for a "cleaner" look.
Think about this they sold 14,000 more 5 series cars then Acura sold TLX. Some of those cars were 4T for $70,000 & a stripper 4T is $56,000. All that gets talked about in the press is the 2.8 second to 60 M5. Image!!
01-30-2019, 02:04 PM
#141
Acura needs to separate itself from Honda + and seriously is anyone buying their Precision Crafted Performance slogan. Forget the fwd offering or don't even bring it to the launch. Everyone that sees the 2.0T fwd will label this as a dressed up Accord. Launch with your best offering even if you have to delay the launch.
01-30-2019, 02:19 PM
#142
Pro
Acura needs to separate itself from Honda + and seriously is anyone buying their Precision Crafted Performance slogan. Forget the fwd offering or don't even bring it to the launch. Everyone that sees the 2.0T fwd will label this as a dressed up Accord. Launch with your best offering even if you have to delay the launch.
01-30-2019, 02:46 PM
#143
Some Guy Who Loves Cars
Bear, I think there is a lot of accuracy in your point. I don't really know my Euros anymore, but pitting a TLX against a 3/C/A4 or an RLX against a 5/E/A6 is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Just typing that makes me chuckle. Acura is so far outmatched by those cars that I'm surprised magazines even compare them together. It's a fully loaded, somewhat upgraded Honda against three manufacturers who build dynamic, luxurious driving machines with premium craftsmanship and impeccable characteristics.
Case in point? Acura doesn't even make a competitor for the 7/S/A8. They know better than to waltz into that dance. But, as sad as Acura may be, Lexus is really impressive. Their IS and GS are hanging tough in the ring with the Euros. At least Lexus makes a flagship - the LS - for the true luxury market. While we talk about a carryover 2.0T from the Accord, the Germans and Lexus are busy driving circles around Acura.
Case in point? Acura doesn't even make a competitor for the 7/S/A8. They know better than to waltz into that dance. But, as sad as Acura may be, Lexus is really impressive. Their IS and GS are hanging tough in the ring with the Euros. At least Lexus makes a flagship - the LS - for the true luxury market. While we talk about a carryover 2.0T from the Accord, the Germans and Lexus are busy driving circles around Acura.
01-30-2019, 02:47 PM
#144
Moderator
Acura isn't trying to compete with RWD European cars - it's just not the space they play in.
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mapleloaf (01-31-2019)
01-30-2019, 03:01 PM
#145
Bear, I think there is a lot of accuracy in your point. I don't really know my Euros anymore, but pitting a TLX against a 3/C/A4 or an RLX against a 5/E/A6 is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Just typing that makes me chuckle. Acura is so far outmatched by those cars that I'm surprised magazines even compare them together. It's a fully loaded, somewhat upgraded Honda against three manufacturers who build dynamic, luxurious driving machines with premium craftsmanship and impeccable characteristics.
Case in point? Acura doesn't even make a competitor for the 7/S/A8. They know better than to waltz into that dance. But, as sad as Acura may be, Lexus is really impressive. Their IS and GS are hanging tough in the ring with the Euros. At least Lexus makes a flagship - the LS - for the true luxury market. While we talk about a carryover 2.0T from the Accord, the Germans and Lexus are busy driving circles around Acura.
Case in point? Acura doesn't even make a competitor for the 7/S/A8. They know better than to waltz into that dance. But, as sad as Acura may be, Lexus is really impressive. Their IS and GS are hanging tough in the ring with the Euros. At least Lexus makes a flagship - the LS - for the true luxury market. While we talk about a carryover 2.0T from the Accord, the Germans and Lexus are busy driving circles around Acura.
01-30-2019, 03:14 PM
#146
Think its an image thing. Right now Acura does not really have one. They make an excellent car for a good price that I believe nobody really looks at. There is no reason even in a smaller then ever sedan market that they are not seeing 50,000+ cars a year. The look is right, the package is right & the price is right.
Also don't think its purely a 4 cylinder thing, its not having a performance 6 cylinder thing image enhancer. The Germans live on turbo 4 to make their CAFE numbers & move a lot of cars for a lower price then the 6 cylinder turbo. The Germans also make $100,000 luxury cars which does not hurt the image thing at all.
People are brand aware & "know" the Germans makes are performance cars because the 6T's actually are & are all that get talked about. Even people buying 4's are under that umbrella many taking the emblems off for a "cleaner" look.
Think about this they sold 14,000 more 5 series cars then Acura sold TLX. Some of those cars were 4T for $70,000 & a stripper 4T is $56,000. All that gets talked about in the press is the 2.8 second to 60 M5. Image!!
Also don't think its purely a 4 cylinder thing, its not having a performance 6 cylinder thing image enhancer. The Germans live on turbo 4 to make their CAFE numbers & move a lot of cars for a lower price then the 6 cylinder turbo. The Germans also make $100,000 luxury cars which does not hurt the image thing at all.
People are brand aware & "know" the Germans makes are performance cars because the 6T's actually are & are all that get talked about. Even people buying 4's are under that umbrella many taking the emblems off for a "cleaner" look.
Think about this they sold 14,000 more 5 series cars then Acura sold TLX. Some of those cars were 4T for $70,000 & a stripper 4T is $56,000. All that gets talked about in the press is the 2.8 second to 60 M5. Image!!
01-30-2019, 03:16 PM
#147
Bear, I think there is a lot of accuracy in your point. I don't really know my Euros anymore, but pitting a TLX against a 3/C/A4 or an RLX against a 5/E/A6 is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Just typing that makes me chuckle. Acura is so far outmatched by those cars that I'm surprised magazines even compare them together.
Indeed, as far as I know, no major mag did run a comparo of the TLX and RLX against other cars theoretically in their segment. Up to the RL and 4G TL they did.
01-30-2019, 03:22 PM
#148
Pro
Bear, I think there is a lot of accuracy in your point. I don't really know my Euros anymore, but pitting a TLX against a 3/C/A4 or an RLX against a 5/E/A6 is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Just typing that makes me chuckle. Acura is so far outmatched by those cars that I'm surprised magazines even compare them together. It's a fully loaded, somewhat upgraded Honda against three manufacturers who build dynamic, luxurious driving machines with premium craftsmanship and impeccable characteristics.
Case in point? Acura doesn't even make a competitor for the 7/S/A8. They know better than to waltz into that dance. But, as sad as Acura may be, Lexus is really impressive. Their IS and GS are hanging tough in the ring with the Euros. At least Lexus makes a flagship - the LS - for the true luxury market. While we talk about a carryover 2.0T from the Accord, the Germans and Lexus are busy driving circles around Acura.
Case in point? Acura doesn't even make a competitor for the 7/S/A8. They know better than to waltz into that dance. But, as sad as Acura may be, Lexus is really impressive. Their IS and GS are hanging tough in the ring with the Euros. At least Lexus makes a flagship - the LS - for the true luxury market. While we talk about a carryover 2.0T from the Accord, the Germans and Lexus are busy driving circles around Acura.
https://carbuzz.com/news/lexus-is-an...-be-killed-off
https://carbuzz.com/news/will-the-le...-off-entirely1
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neuronbob (02-04-2019)
01-30-2019, 04:32 PM
#149
Some Guy Who Loves Cars
You know, I didn’t look up IS sales before adding Lexus to my point. My perception was that the IS was beating up the TLX. It actually appears they were neck and neck until the last year when the IS dropped off. With all my TLX issues, I certainly wish I had an IS in my garage instead, but I digress.
My point was that the Euros have the segment covered and Acura is outclassed and outmatched - and I’m just talking Euro base models here. Euros have a market that Acura and Lexus don’t even touch - S4, AMG, M3 and M5. Euros are dropping V8s and biturbos into sedans while Acura tops out at an NA V6. At least Lexus has a V8 In the LS. The reason people buy Euros are for the premium experience and performance. The reason people buy Acura is for a fully loaded Honda that is more reliable than the Euros with almost as much prestige. I think pricing reflects their markets. Acura tops out at whatever $45k for TLX and $60 for RLX while Euros or LS go all the way up to over $100k.
My point was that the Euros have the segment covered and Acura is outclassed and outmatched - and I’m just talking Euro base models here. Euros have a market that Acura and Lexus don’t even touch - S4, AMG, M3 and M5. Euros are dropping V8s and biturbos into sedans while Acura tops out at an NA V6. At least Lexus has a V8 In the LS. The reason people buy Euros are for the premium experience and performance. The reason people buy Acura is for a fully loaded Honda that is more reliable than the Euros with almost as much prestige. I think pricing reflects their markets. Acura tops out at whatever $45k for TLX and $60 for RLX while Euros or LS go all the way up to over $100k.
Last edited by someguy11; 01-30-2019 at 04:35 PM.
01-30-2019, 06:27 PM
#150
There are four lights!
You know, I didn’t look up IS sales before adding Lexus to my point. My perception was that the IS was beating up the TLX. It actually appears they were neck and neck until the last year when the IS dropped off. With all my TLX issues, I certainly wish I had an IS in my garage instead, but I digress.
My point was that the Euros have the segment covered and Acura is outclassed and outmatched - and I’m just talking Euro base models here. Euros have a market that Acura and Lexus don’t even touch - S4, AMG, M3 and M5. Euros are dropping V8s and biturbos into sedans while Acura tops out at an NA V6. At least Lexus has a V8 In the LS. The reason people buy Euros are for the premium experience and performance. The reason people buy Acura is for a fully loaded Honda that is more reliable than the Euros with almost as much prestige. I think pricing reflects their markets. Acura tops out at whatever $45k for TLX and $60 for RLX while Euros or LS go all the way up to over $100k.
My point was that the Euros have the segment covered and Acura is outclassed and outmatched - and I’m just talking Euro base models here. Euros have a market that Acura and Lexus don’t even touch - S4, AMG, M3 and M5. Euros are dropping V8s and biturbos into sedans while Acura tops out at an NA V6. At least Lexus has a V8 In the LS. The reason people buy Euros are for the premium experience and performance. The reason people buy Acura is for a fully loaded Honda that is more reliable than the Euros with almost as much prestige. I think pricing reflects their markets. Acura tops out at whatever $45k for TLX and $60 for RLX while Euros or LS go all the way up to over $100k.
01-30-2019, 10:37 PM
#151
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A number of Civics & an Accord are listed, in the latest the 2018 Civic Type-R which did very well. Unfortunately a 2015 Honda Fit EX is #242 but at least it made the cut.
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/
Lightning Laps 2006/2018 Historical listing
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Costco (01-31-2019)
01-31-2019, 02:13 AM
#152
Agree, was a time when you could not have a magazine 3/A/C/G35 combo test without a TL in in. The telling listing today is the Lightning Laps conducted each summer for the October C&D issue, in its 12 years of existence has never run an Acura. 242 different cars have been tested at the VIR event since it started in 2006.
A number of Civics & an Accord are listed, in the latest the 2018 Civic Type-R which did very well. Unfortunately a 2015 Honda Fit EX is #242 but at least it made the cut.
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/
Lightning Laps 2006/2018 Historical listing
A number of Civics & an Accord are listed, in the latest the 2018 Civic Type-R which did very well. Unfortunately a 2015 Honda Fit EX is #242 but at least it made the cut.
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/
Lightning Laps 2006/2018 Historical listing
Honda is usually late to market with certain drivetrain tech these days - a turbo-6 is long overdue. Of course, it would be wise to temper expectations.
01-31-2019, 05:18 AM
#153
Senior Moderator
Agree, was a time when you could not have a magazine 3/A/C/G35 combo test without a TL in in. The telling listing today is the Lightning Laps conducted each summer for the October C&D issue, in its 12 years of existence has never run an Acura. 242 different cars have been tested at the VIR event since it started in 2006.
A number of Civics & an Accord are listed, in the latest the 2018 Civic Type-R which did very well. Unfortunately a 2015 Honda Fit EX is #242 but at least it made the cut.
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/
Lightning Laps 2006/2018 Historical listing
A number of Civics & an Accord are listed, in the latest the 2018 Civic Type-R which did very well. Unfortunately a 2015 Honda Fit EX is #242 but at least it made the cut.
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/
Lightning Laps 2006/2018 Historical listing
Maybe the rags are just discounting Asian makes in this segment comparison these days. Note: I didn’t check how many comparison tests included the IS.
Last edited by F23A4; 01-31-2019 at 05:21 AM.
01-31-2019, 08:01 AM
#154
tehLEGOman
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Agree, was a time when you could not have a magazine 3/A/C/G35 combo test without a TL in in. The telling listing today is the Lightning Laps conducted each summer for the October C&D issue, in its 12 years of existence has never run an Acura. 242 different cars have been tested at the VIR event since it started in 2006.
A number of Civics & an Accord are listed, in the latest the 2018 Civic Type-R which did very well. Unfortunately a 2015 Honda Fit EX is #242 but at least it made the cut.
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/
Lightning Laps 2006/2018 Historical listing
A number of Civics & an Accord are listed, in the latest the 2018 Civic Type-R which did very well. Unfortunately a 2015 Honda Fit EX is #242 but at least it made the cut.
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/
Lightning Laps 2006/2018 Historical listing
When I first started looking at the chart I was like, wait a minute!..the honda r&d TL did a 2:15 at VIR, but then I realized these times are based off of the grand course and not the full course.
01-31-2019, 08:03 AM
#155
tehLEGOman
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I just got a feeling moments ago that maybe Acura will have a 'type-S..it's coming' commercial during the superbowl. I think they did that with the nsx.
01-31-2019, 09:50 AM
#156
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I just got a feeling moments ago that maybe Acura will have a 'type-S..it's coming' commercial during the superbowl. I think they did that with the nsx.
Full Course
Grand Course
BTW The Oak Tree at the Oak Tree corner is long gone.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-31-2019 at 10:03 AM.
01-31-2019, 10:01 AM
#157
02-02-2019, 09:57 AM
#159
FWIW, I've driven a G70 2.0T with AWD, and I understand all the accolades. It's excellent. Other than odd transmission behavior, which could have been related to the drive mode, I loved it and I can't wait to test the 2.0T/6MT version. They really nailed the suspension tuning, which provides outstanding ride/handling balance. But I think Acura is more than capable of matching Genesis in this respect, because even my 2010 TSX isn't that far off. (In normal driving, at least.) Given the excellence of the 10G Civic and new Accord, I'm optimistic about the next TLX.
Last edited by Nedmundo; 02-02-2019 at 10:00 AM.
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a35tl (02-02-2019)
02-02-2019, 10:21 AM
#160
Three Wheelin'
FWIW, I've driven a G70 2.0T with AWD, and I understand all the accolades. It's excellent. Other than odd transmission behavior, which could have been related to the drive mode, I loved it and I can't wait to test the 2.0T/6MT version. They really nailed the suspension tuning, which provides outstanding ride/handling balance. But I think Acura is more than capable of matching Genesis in this respect, because even my 2010 TSX isn't that far off. (In normal driving, at least.) Given the excellence of the 10G Civic and new Accord, I'm optimistic about the next TLX.
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Nedmundo (02-03-2019)
