skabei

"clutchless gearbox" =P I don't think dct is "clutchless"

Anyway, yeah this argument isn't going to change anyone's opinion on the matter. It's all preference. I would like to see a MT or at least the DCT on the V6 TLX though.

CJ Majesty

The clutch you step on.

CJ Majesty

I've been here longer than all of you, I don't need friends, or a gang full of teachers correcting my grammar.


Your missing the point. The DCT should be replacing the automatic transmission not the manual.
The DCT May be vastly superior on the track but if it were vastly superior on the road, there would be no need to fix it with a torque converter.


Your S2000 is the perfect example, of what a pure sports car/roadster should be, only available in stick, and they stopped making it. If the S2000 is ever revived, I can almost guarantee it'll be a DCT.


I walked into three Honda dealers and called 2 others, looking for a TL SH-AWD in a Stick and the salesmen attempted to put me in an ILX.
People want the cars, they are not available. Its happened to me and 4 other people I know and 3 left the showroom with an automatic vehicle.


This is more about the DCT replacing the wrong transmission. Because of fuel economy (9 speeds) and the fact that as technology advances, more control is removed from the driver, to ensure it works as the engineer programed it too. And I'm a driver....I am the program.

Ken1997TL

You're forgetting one important thing: CAFE

That's THE number one issue an automaker has on its mind after profit. And if a DCT can offer a blend of performance and economy, it'll be a priority offering in a luxury brand.

fsttyms1

And do you honestly think anyone is going to take you and your laughable at best argument seriously when you resort to name calling??

You honestly think you can shift from 6th to 3rd faster than 3 quick taps of a paddle? Going from 6th to 3rd in a sweeping hwy exit in a DCT is going to upset the balance of the vehicle far less than with a manual. The industry must be forcing all race cars as well huh when according to you manuals are vastly superior?
So you think that when you need those precious milliseconds, taking the 1 or 2 seconds to press in the the clutch is going to decelerate the motor or allow the car to slow faster than leaving it in gear and hitting the brakes?? Sorry, have you heard of inertia? Guess what, your 30lb flywheel is going to keep engine momentum going for a slight amount of time.

And guess what, Im not a motorist along for the ride being controlled by the auto industry, Im an enthusiast, A driver, one who doesnt mind embracing advancements. I spend a fair amount of time on the track (something im sure you havent ever done), i average over 50k miles a year driving, AND i went as far as to convert my TL from an Auto to a Manual. Let me repeat that for you incase you missed it, I converted my TL from an Auto to a Manual, so your feeble attempt at trying to explain to us why you feel a manual is better doesnt really do anything to convince me (and im sure others) otherwise. Do i prefer it over Auto hell yes, If i had to choose Auto vs Manual would i choose it, Yes, would i take it over a true/good DCT, No. Now i recommend you go dump out your bowl of cheerios that someone obviously pissed in and get yourself a new bowl with fresh milk in it.

fsttyms1

Sorry, the clutch is the friction disk that helps transmit the power from the engine to the transmission. The Clutch Pedal is what you step on.

mugen_kid

^^And the gas pedal, skkkerrrt!

BEAR-AvHistory

And in the case of the DCT the computer does the "stepping" way faster than you can. Dual clutch means two input shafts & the next gear is always engaged & ready to go not waiting for you to move the shift forks over with your antique handle. Additionally RPMs are not being pulled to make the shift, its the same as no lift shifting in a stick which in a stick can have expensive results unless the trans is modified.

Honda has elected to use a torque converter in its cars because of its customer base. Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche, BMW, Audi, Mercedes etc who sell actual performance cars do not use a torque converter in their DCT products.

Colin

If I'm not mistaken, this is an industry first right? Didn't I read that except for launches, the torque converter is locked up? I can't recall if it was 'official' information or internet scuttlebutt that has become "fact"?

CJ Majesty

[QUOTE=fsttyms1;15054728]And do you honestly think anyone is going to take you and your laughable at best argument seriously when you resort to name calling??

You honestly think you can shift from 6th to 3rd faster than 3 quick taps of a paddle? Going from 6th to 3rd in a sweeping hwy exit in a DCT is going to upset the balance of the vehicle far less than with a manual. The industry must be forcing all race cars as well huh when according to you manuals are vastly superior?
So you think that when you need those precious milliseconds, taking the 1 or 2 seconds to press in the the clutch is going to decelerate the motor or allow the car to slow faster than leaving it in gear and hitting the brakes?? Sorry, have you heard of inertia? Guess what, your 30lb flywheel is going to keep engine momentum going for a slight amount of time.

And guess what, Im not a motorist along for the ride being controlled by the auto industry, Im an enthusiast, A driver, one who doesnt mind embracing advancements. I spend a fair amount of time on the track (something im sure you havent ever done), i average over 50k miles a year driving, AND i went as far as to convert my TL from an Auto to a Manual. Let me repeat that for you incase you missed it, I converted my TL from an Auto to a Manual, so your feeble attempt at trying to explain to us why you feel a manual is better doesnt really do anything to convince me (and im sure others) otherwise. Do i prefer it over Auto hell yes, If i had to choose Auto vs Manual would i choose it, Yes, would i take it over a true/good DCT, No. Now i recommend you go dump out your bowl of cheerios that someone obviously pissed in and get yourself a new bowl with fresh milk in it. [/

First of all, unbunch your panties. I've got a fresh bowl of cheerios. And promise to keep things civil.

Im responding to what you said. Dont call my track experience into question, for the record, id perfer a DSG on the track too.
But on the road I want to step on a clutch pedal.


My anger is more about the fact that the car wont be offered in a stick.
More over you will not be able to, convert a TLX to a stick. Like you did your TL.

Im not responding to any of the other stuff you said.
The bottom line is, the way things are going...the automotive industry is going to make a car you are not going to enjoy driving...(on the road, not the track) They read these forums and the argument you are making.... that way of thinking, is why they think its ok.

CJ Majesty

I actually agree with you. F. What a small portion of drivers want. How can we offer one car with one transmission.

CJ Majesty

I read 1st and 2nd.

BEAR-AvHistory

Yes its a first. Supposed to soften the launch. Locks up like all modern torque converters do. As we talked about before, for some people the DCT start from stop can feel harsh. I expect people who have been driving a stick would not notice it, but someone from a regular auto with a sensitive bottom might.

IMHO it just adds a lot more complexity to an already complex product. I believe a better choice for Honda/Acura would have been the ZF 8 speed. Still on break-in with the 435 which is a ZF8 but in general driving, both auto & manual mode, seat of the pants it feels the same as the DCT on my 335is. Regardless both are quicker than my 135is 6MT.

I don't think even with a modified MT you can shift as fast as these guys do since you are just flicking your finger tips & not moving your whole arm. Add foot motion to that with a stock MT & you are history against them.

No DCT bragging rights but a very very good trans that is so close to the DCT in performance that its a wash on the street.

CJ Majesty

Read what you wrote. Then go back and read what I wrote.

Im gonna go get anther bowl of Cheerios.

BEAR-AvHistory

^^^^
You wrote a lot of stuff, want to be specific?

CJ Majesty

No...enjoy your new TLX....Sans-clutch pedal.

fsttyms1

You are correct. Honda used the TC to only aid in the low speed slow start where the DCT is commonly known to be not so smooth.

fsttyms1

Actually, i bet one could even if acura doesnt offer it The 2nd gen was never offered in manual either but every thing bolted right up. Id place a good bet that it shares a lot of parts from the accord which is offered and many of the key structural things needed are there.

fsttyms1

I agree, i think adding the TC is just adding more complexity, added weight, and asking for something else to go wrong And with Hondas past trans issues im not sure id want to be a guinea pig.

BEAR-AvHistory

I don't see a TLX clutch or no clutch in my future.

winstrolvtec

I think that is a lot of the same argument one can make with respect to a DCT to today's autos. One argument being more complexity to an already complex product and the other being relatively similar performance on the street, be it auto, DCT, and even manual anyway, to where preference, and not performance, is actually the primary driving force, especially between a third pedal vs none.

I don't disagree with overall assessment that DCT is fast and more advanced in many technical senses but the only times it truly reflected in full force is when you are actually passing through most or all of those gears in that full speed ahead capacity, or perhaps in other instances on a road course, which is a race or drag strip setting, or race track, etc, and not the street. The same argument could be made for manuals in the past as well but today, and especially in the luxury scene, people who drive manuals are driving them mostly because of preference.

The little edge is something most people don't actually ever take advantage of, but so are a lot of other things with respects to vehicles and if those tenths are attractive, even if just on paper, more power to the buyer but what I'm getting at is that for the majority, it really should be chalked up as largely preference based first and and then whatever advantages or disadvantages are present and that goes for both DCT and manual but instead, it's typically the reverse when it comes to DCT's, excluding certain cases. And for that little bit more we are losing so much of which you can't measure, and is not on a time slip or data sheet.

If one really likes driving a stick, the difference between most respective versions within the same model is insignificant for street driving and borderline worth any consideration if you track weekly or something like that IMO. If one is actually so concerned with truly going faster, why not just get or consider a much a faster car in the first place as an alternative?

I only say that because many claim to want a stick and prefer it or that they are die-hard fans but jump shift so easily going on about the superiority of this vs that when they simply don't really want a stick for many other subjective and driver related reasons and less to do with the car and performance in the first place. Or they simply must have that little bit more regardless of where it comes from or what the transmission type is whether they can utilize it or not or what they lose in the process.

All of which is fine, no knock here again, all for choices and preferences in all directions so long as we can have and retain them all but there is a fine line, some folks take the hype a little too far or use it to easily justify against a manual when there are many people out there who want to see the MT advance and continue as they have done with the autos and/or automated. When you cross that line, or don't draw one, we are limiting others' choices and that should be the last thing we want for cars and other enthusiasts alike.

At this point a stick shift is almost entirely preference based and not many key areas that help justify it's existence like improved mpg and performance but IMO that's an effect of what is being discussed and not a cause but there could be improvements in key areas or they could shrink the gap even further and some interesting things might be done with shift-gates and clutches/third pedals and added technology if people were not so easily writing it off for mostly their own reasons.

I don't know why or how some people can claim to be so performance obsessed and swear by DCT's as the answer or the future or direction and only cars or brands that offer these are real performance cars or brands yet want less to do with the control of their car in general and the control over the performance and to reduce driver input and skill factor, regardless of how much or little the car has or how much or little they can actually extract from it. To me that is a contradiction.

Maybe in the case of the most extreme performance and competition settings which are not suitable for street and roads like F1, where it's not that much less competitive in using one, a DCT is truly useful but for everything else, even drag strips and weekend road courses, it's only pretending IMO and I agree that DCT should be replacing and advancing autos, not manuals.

BEAR-AvHistory

Basically disagree. The best drivers in the world use DCT's at work. If an MT had more control they would still be using them. Something as basic as a gear change in a fast sweeper the DCT easily wins the control factor over the MT.

Within todays technology the industry rankings based on transmissions offered by product lines are DCT the #1 choice for the Top Gun trans, the ZF8 is #2 & the MT is #3.

Chevy made a big deal last year releasing a 7MT in the new StingRay like Porsche but has turned around & is releasing the Z06 high performance StingRay with an 8AT. The factory race cars are DCT's.

Meanwhile you can't get the top of the line Porsche with a manual. As prices come down more & more "sport" versions of various cars are being equipped with a DCT.

You can slice & dice it anyway you want but the MT has been relegated to a fun item & is no longer a serious player as a top level performance item.

The basic problem for the MT its a fun item but the number of people who think its fun is shrinking. I don't think Acura sold enough of them to make a business case to continue to offer them.

Whatever you can do with an MT you can do with a DCT. You can also drive it in full auto mode like a classic AT. I am not anti MT, 3 cards in my signature are equipped with them, but I am a realist when it comes to performance technology. Lack of performance against the DCT & classic AT is why the MT is dying.

A lot of the debate is totally ego driven - I drive stick so I am a better driver - I would humbly suggest if possible get a ride in a DCT driven by a pro driver to see what fast & controlled is all about.

BTW looked under the 435 & you are correct it has struts, but it also has upper & lower suspension members called a double pivot suspension system. Sort of looks like coil overs with A arms. Very close visually to my Cobras suspension. Brakes are also multi piston fixed caliper units.

winstrolvtec

The difference is I have admitted my decision and stance is one largely made by my own preferences so many will disagree on the subject, but you fail to do the same just as so many others, so I agree that it can be an ego driven discussion, for some. Again, I don't doubt that in the most extreme of situations or contexts that a DCT is the way to go, again, I agree but there is a clear distinction between a mass produced luxury vehicle for example, built for a large market of buyers who basically drive on regular speed regulated roads with the occasional weekend warrior who will not be using it in a competitive enough environment for it to make a difference anyway.

I am only advocating we allow and maintain choice and therefore growth and adaptation, I don't want to see less choices from any form of transmission, I want to see them all whereas you and many others seem to want to crown a champion and let it be all and end all, guess that is the ego talking. Maybe there is a clear winner at extreme levels and the most competitive of racing forms right now, no doubt, but that's not the case in terms of regular commuter street vehicles, luxury distinction or otherwise.

A suggestion otherwise is simply unwarranted, it's all hype, even by your own admittance, in suggesting for street purposes they are all virtually comparable, a wash nonetheless so I don't know why you keep countering with only an extreme race car context in mind. You say get a ride in a DCT with a pro driver assuming in a race or competition setting but I'm talking about street, how most people actually use their cars, maybe at most an occasional track day vs dedicated track car. However, I don't see how fast and controlled is reserved for DCT driven cars or only by pros. I've actually experienced the opposite as hard as some make that seem in their minds.

I don't own a race car, on a more personal level, and some might argue the closest thing that you do own to a race car is actually a manual, FWIW. You have to admit by your own logic that many autos are now close to DCT's or other automated manuals, and if more were on board for the latest manual adaptation in a 7MT, it would be even closer or tighter still between all three. Again, street driven context, with the occasion back roads, etc.

I don't think it's hard to see the manual still has some room before the future of transmission is decided on, if it would even come down to one, but for example, BMW is committed to the manual in most circumstances still, which I truly admire about the brand but before we wan't to retire them across the board would it not be nice to see the latest implementation of at least 7MT's across the line and other lines instead of it's 6MT for a model generation or two?

We have the latest auto and automated techs and trannys, let's give the manual the same opportunity and we will see how the market takes it form there, don't think it's such a stretch. I don't disagree that there may be a possibility we are headed in one direction, CVT ultimately IMO, but still wide open enough for now where all the choices have purpose and while DCT's were under way, autos have gotten much much better, almost to where we might not need DCT's, except for model and/or variant distinctions and marketing as we already see evidence of.

As far as manuals, they still have life and it can be greatly extended. Transmissions are very much at a cross roads, they should all be given their fair shot at finding a place for the future or dying off, however that should not be forced by this kind of rhetoric or over hyping, nor should it be confused with any particular tech being heads and shoulders superior for mass produced street cars simply because brands want to cut back and people never really took to driving stick even when they were clearly superior. There is a difference.

As many get older they don't want to bother, aches and pains, knee and hip replacements etc, not to mention we are living older longer and today's youth doesn't know how or want to learn, those who do, don't have the same opportunities to and most would rather press a button or have the car drive them around. Again, for street performance there is not such a distinction so these are the driving factors for MT dying, not max performance comparisons, most people don't own or shop anything remotely close to a max performer.

Again, I don't disagree that there probably is a clear choice as a top level performer but all forms are capable enough in most mass production applications to be a viable alternative still, especially when combined with other positive contributing factors which we know a manual has, whether one likes that or not. Brands are in fact controlling both the supply and the demand to a large extent.

The other points about certain models are interesting but there are plenty to counter them as well. For example, Porsche still offers more manual trims than PDK's, even if only among the sport cars and it may be anecdotal but it seems that most Porsche enthusiasts you would find on sites like this would rather take the manual even slower and with less real world mileage as based on a number of polls on Porsche member boards. Consider that the total number of gears favor auto or automated, most advancements have been in increased gear count and gear play over transmission type, where they work particularly well with software such as launch modes, traction, etc, which is not as suitable for the manual because a manual is not meant to limit the amount of driver input and control as these other products are.

No doubt they will help make an improved product because they do "control" (or help or further control) many facets of the vehicle's drivings components and dynamics and can improve them or fine tune them to create a more "controlled overall experience" in comparison to and they shift very fast naturally but please do not mistake that for increased "driver control" or "driver input", because there is less, period. Again, a matter or preference mostly but a key distinction nonetheless.

The DCT and also high number autos are a great business tool, for reasons already discussed. The manual is and was already a hard sell with performance aside, newer autos shift faster and cleans things up, help put the power down and control things that the driver would otherwise have to or try to, it cuts costs, etc, and so the experience is largely better or at least easier for all drivers and looks much better on paper, and it's a great marketing tool. It's a win-win-win but more of an overall business decision than how it relates to max performance, although that is a part of it sure.

The 435 and struts, suspension, the Cobra and brakes don't apply to anything I said here recently, again that is my point, there is this over argument or defensiveness around the subject, ego as you put it and it doesn't belong there and it's a part of the reasons why this sort of thing has cost us some new really good manual products because of misinformation, emotion, defensiveness, insecurity, hype and what have you, otherwise simply garbage or baggage around the subject that doesn't really need to be there.

FWIW, I don't know how I fare as a driver, don't care, probably bad. I know I like a manual and it's requirements for driver input and a little more than a basic level of engagement, and in most brands and models, it does not give up enough for me to disregard one but I do not think anyone who wants or prefers an auto, DCT or otherwise is a bad or worse driver or makes the wrong choice, nor do I fault them for what they may gain, however I would just ask not to crap on what someone else enjoys or to make it difficult for them to enjoy or obtain because it's different than what you may want or like, ego and all the other personal reasons. Manuals need all the support they can get.

BEAR-AvHistory

^^^^
Sorry you feel crapped upon but such is life. People disagree but its not a good plan to take it personally.

I added the double pivot type strut suspension note because you have not been around for awhile. Last time you repeated any number of times about the inferiority of McPherson Struts being a cheap car thing even though many expensive performance cars use modified strut based suspensions.

I guess since the TLX now is pure McPherson Strut front end that's no longer of interest. Nice to see they kept the extra bits in the RLX. Wonder if a swap is possible?

On gear boxes agree an MT can be fun but that's not what I was responding to. The statement was made that the DCT should replace the AT not the MT. What is happening is the new AT's are replacing the MT & the DCT is the performance trans of choice.

My personal trans choices are not in conflict as far as I can see. 135is fun zippy 6MT car. Quick agile within the limits of a small convertible but not as quick or agile as the DCT versions. The Late 335is DCT DD/Performance car was replaced with a 8ZF because the only other choice was the 6MT. Would have opted for the DCT if it was available.

Finally the "closest thing to a race car" is speced to Factory Five Challenge model standards. Good promotional vid on YouTube about 6:30 in with the car its cloned from just getting nosed out by a Lamborghini over a road course. Drag race runs are earlier. Not that that matters a whole lot but some of the guys are following the build on "car talk".

Why I brought it up was your suggestion about its choice of trans as being significant to your premiss. I would have installed a DCT in a heartbeat but:

The car is a 1967 replica & would not fit a DCT without a lot of cutting & welding.

The trans would increase the cost of the car by about 40%.

Then there is the trans ECU & getting someone to hack the proprietary software to get it to function, cost/feasibility unknown. Basically its a non starter.

winstrolvtec

Not taking it personally, you should just come to terms with the notion that it's still largely, as in mostly, a preference based decision, one which you should simply acknowledge and be done with it. No problem that you feel differently and we disagree. Problem is some don't want to leave it at that for whatever personal, maybe ego related reasons, seem to want to stretch it in attempt to validate their decision or preference or that they have to be right or something, or that there has to be a right or wrong by coming up with this and that excuse, when it's quite obvious that a manual is still a viable option as are autos, even over automated.

I don't disagree that the manual is fading but that has been the case for a while, advancements in the manual would keep it viable, we might see more advancements if people just got real about why they make their choices and be ok with them. Furthermore, I disagree with the idea that manuals are dying because of performance, one example of the stretching and imagination that I am talking about and I can back that up in fact.

At the same time, not denying that in max setting and max performers, which have nothing to do with street cars and even the occasional weekend warrior, where every second really counts with lots of high speed turns and you may need two hands on the wheel like F1, it makes a difference but putting that aside, you can still see that even when manuals were the performance favorite, I repeat they were actually the performance favorite for a long time, they still didn't outsell the autos and continued to fade regardless. Brands don't want to offer them and people don't want them, and that has only grown, having little to do with performance and today people who do want them, has little to do with performance.

So the struts, well it's no secret that in concept it's a cheap and simple one but I did not say it was necessarily bad, same goes for electronic LSD or single piston brakes. I simply suggested that the finished product, bottom-line capabilities and it's implementation is what should be looked at, not that it simply has struts or not, etc but if you want, I was simply playing your game in reverse which you don't seem to like, again take your own advice and don't take it personally, such is life.

Same thing as it related to Acura using a global platform shared with Honda, again, those are not issues in of themselves. Not an accusation but maybe to shallow insecure people only concerned with image or how they are received or seek the validation of others, or their purchase, who have to personalize everything or that there has to be a winner or loser, etc, etc. It's entirely possible to have a better riding and handling vehicle that uses struts over a double wishbone, etc, for example. It's irrelevant by itself, as is the notion of "economy" platform, don't believe there is such a thing, only an economy "car", understood? Let's be real and be fair.

Your choices are in conflict because you're saying that you would have a DCT in other vehicles if you had a choice or it was feasible but in some cases it's not and wasn't, case and point. Have your preference, I would not stop you, ever, DCT clearly has it's place even when many brands are opting for 8 and 9 autos instead or even in replacement. If I wanted to, I could start stretching things and going on and on about how we don't need DCT, etc, we can simply use 8 and 9AT's and eventually go CVT. Acura went 9AT for the SH over the DCT, and BMW went 8AT over 7DCT, etc, so why bother, etc, etc, but I don't, there is no need or that at least I don't see one. They all have a place IMO and we should support all equally whether it is our personal choice or not, manual included.

Now back to BMW going 8AT over the 7DCT, wouldn't it be nice to have had a 7MT option as I suggested earlier? Would close the gap, if there actually is one, it's close enough that on one test we can see the MT faster and on another the AT but side by side I suspect the AT is a bit quicker but for most drivers that's an insignificant number, same is true for the S4 and they offer a DCT, just to show it is not a rare one off example. Truth (as in fact), is that if a brand is going to offer both a 6MT or 7MT and a 8AT or 9AT or 7DCT or 8DCT, they are going to be close enough to warrant the other's existence. There are no real deal breakers in terms of street driving and performance as the brands see it.

However, I agree that most can't or won't be willing to replicate the manual numbers anyway so even giving the AT the edge for a few of those reasons, one could make some minor mods to only the shifter and traction and on goods days, any performance difference would be virtually non existent anyway, especially with an addition of a 7MT, as they already are for street purposes, which are most peoples' purposes.

All transmission options are still very viable and have their place, manual the least for many reasons, I agree but seems they are used on a case by case basis. In fact, autos are also replacing many DCT's and I'm sure we can find examples of any one replacing the other but as a whole, and taking all history into account, it would appear that autos are replacing manuals and then there is the DCT but now we see some grey area and uncertainty there. However, I never claimed in previous posts what the case may or may not be only that IMO, manuals still have a place and that an automatic shifting transmission still falls into the auto category, as does this discussion falls into an auto vs manual debate and that is still mostly preference based at the end of the day, perhaps headed towards a non-preference based decision for the time being while some things get sorted, which I will gladly concede.

BEAR-AvHistory

Last post on this.

MT & EGO. Very few MT vs. AT threads don’t include things like “man pedal” “we drive not just steer” “AT’s are for girls” etc. That is either ego, stupidity or all of the above. Was a time when 99% of the population drove stick so it ain’t no big deal.

MT can be fun agree.

MT is outdated tech. Auto tech starts at the track & trickles down. Outside of NASCAR which just discovered fuel injection this year no major sanctioning body mandates MT’s. Therefore given a choice starting with F1 & down when millions of dollars are on the line the MT is NOT chosen.

MT can be fun agree so can horseback riding.

Adding gears to a MT is more about fuel economy standards than performance. Watch two identical cars run & every shift the MT drops back.

MT can be fun agree but even up it looses.

MT is a personal choice depending on what the car is for but its no more than that, in the past it was the hot ticket but those days are gone.

MT can be fun & I find it fun that the old fart is supporting High Tech & the young guys want to drive in the past. Been there, done that, got a lot of tee shirts over the years, but now is better.

Colin

Hey guys, #giveashift
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=em3ROentFEk

winstrolvtec

So you're saying there is no such thing as the opposite in terms of ego, etc, for autos and DCT, and please tell me just what that might look like if it does exist and how it's different than what you are getting at? Somehow you think that people who may not want to drive stick, you yourself included, then also go on suggesting it's old, outdated, inferior, point to F1, when we do nothing remotely close to that type of driving as everyday drivers or have cars that resemble those race cars. That's were "preference" comes in. For all practical purposes, they are still close enough, it's not as if it's like offering a 4AT vs 9AT all else equal, it's not that kind of a difference.

So how is that stance and some of those points any different than the MT ego instead as it relates to mass produced cars? I would give it to you easily if we were talking F1 cars or you raced in semi pro competition for a living where it is all about racing others and having to compete to win, zero exceptions, no preference involved but that's not the case or a rare one, where brands don't take the consideration that far or else MT's would be dead already.

Some brands that are dedicated more to sport related activities such as the weekend trackster that also serve as regular production commuter cars, ironically still offer the manual and some go as far as to upgrade them to 7MT for both performance and fuel related reasons, such as Porsche. We may still see further advances there if there was more support, support that is getting killed by people who think they are somehow buying F1 cars and that preference is a zero factor in their decision or that there really is some significant advantage to opting for a DCT or auto that is also going to really serve them instead of just being a choice, a like, or a want, etc, over a manual where it's comparably offered and already claiming manual to be done.

Again, virtually nobody has millions of dollars on the line in almost all production cars so it's a moot point. One or two who do, or might consider it, I would easily give them a pass but that has nothing to do with the rest. Anyone claiming that their preference had nothing to do with their choice, and wants what the "winners" have or F1 guys have, are only feeding ego. If one said they liked that idea but it was still largely a preference based decision, then clearly it's not an ego buy and sounds a lot more realistic. Someone who said they put preference aside and went with the "winners" 8AT/9AT/DCT and have no practical use or purpose for doing so is an ego driven person, made an ego buy and probably chases badges when it comes to cars anyway.

FWIW, I have never suggested anything along those lines and personally don't feel that way, again I agree that it's a fun thing and a preference, I would give up 3 tenths, or whatever, that I would almost never use to be more involved and for what I find more satisfying, fun and a part of the competitiveness in cars, if I so chose to partake. It's simple, no ego here but I can't tell the other way. In the past, I would assume many people experienced the MT ego thing because it was the max performance choice for so long and many people couldn't drive them (don't know why one would fault someone for that) but now that auto and DCT is, it looks like the same can be said, and I agree with you that's it stupid and ego thing, etc, so we agree in either case where it's used or done, and it's silly.

If I was to opt for an auto or DCT, again it would be mostly preference, not about getting those three tenths or so because, while nice to have, it makes no difference to my life or my ego because I have none or very little. Where someone swears by having those extra tenths where it doesn't actually serve them any meaningful purpose, it's hard to say it's not an ego driven decision. Certainly preference makes up at least 50% of the buying decision in real terms because there are enough options for faster cars where one could still opt for the manual if it really was about having to have that extra performance and one still might want a manual anyway. IMO one who suggests otherwise and has no real meaningful purpose for it is kidding themselves and is DCT/auto ego talking.

So I'm not sure if you're suggesting that going auto or DCT is not about preference in production cars, maybe you can clear that up. If preference is included as far as you are concerned, then I'm not sure why this discussion and the back and forth. If it's not, then you should just admit it is about ego and we can also be done here.

Again, I want all the tech to continue on and grow, it's premature to write off the stick just yet in production cars for performance reasons. For others reasons, I would concede. Maybe I should relate it in more personal terms, and to easier prove my point, why did you opt for the DCT in the 335is and 8AT in the 435 vs a 6MT? If a 7MT was made available and it cut any difference in half or there basically was none, would that change anything for you?

No need not to respond, it's the internet, no big deal, and I genuinely enjoy our discussions and your positions. Think we are getting about done anyway. I don't think this is a totally meaningless debate anyway because someone might take a thing or two form it.

skabei

I can't believe what became of this thread..

a35tl

I was just thinking the same thing!

Ken1997TL

This is getting a bit out of hand. I think we can all agree to disagree without umpteen paragraphs.

Terragotti

This happens to every thread. Ive gotten use to it

internalaudit

Come on Acura, please make the 8-speed DCT a lot more fun than the Accord Hybrid. The CVT on the regular Accord is a non-comparison.

pickler

the torque converter is a major contributer to that slushy feeling hence the term 'slush box'. fitting a TC on a DCT is like fitting plane wings on a car. Stupid as shit IMO. The 9 speed will be a good tranny though, since it's ZF. it's a good upgrade, worth the money to go 3.5L / SH-AWD. however I hope to god acura will offer a more powerful engine one day. I personally rather have the outgoing 3.7L but that's just me.

Ken1997TL

The torque converter is for low speeds only. DCT's are very jerky on city streets.

BEAR-AvHistory

^^^^
Just a thought on this. What constitudes "very jerky" is really hard to define as is ALL DCT's operating the same. Some of the high end high horsepower cars can slam every shift. I drove a DCT for about 3 years & never really noticed a jerky feeling in normal drive mode during DD. Step up through the sport modes & it gets more & more aggressive.

It could knock your fillings out in full manual sport mode @ WOT, but that is what you want from it.

Its all about how its programmed to operate. In "D" no sport mine had slower, lower pressure, lower RPM shifts that could make you look at the panel to see what gear you were in when driving with a light foot.

People who are not smooth on the throttle during start from stop can/will get a jerk as the car begins to roll but after that IIMO is a non-event.

I understand what Honda is doing with the TC I just don't agree its really necessary. I expect its because they are only giving you limited trans choices & are trying to cover the get in & drive base as well as the more sporty driver with the same package.

A nice set would be 6MT, 8ZF, 7DCT take your pick.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Most DCT's are only jerky at very low speeds, such as at a parking lot, and/or pulling away from a stop light. I think for most people it's not too much of an issue. But a torque converter will eliminate any smoothness issue.

It has nothing to do with jerkiness when shifting.

docboy

I recently test drove a Porsche Macan S and PDK; it has the 7spd PDK transmission.

I noticed that 1st-2nd, and even some 2nd-3rd shifts were a rough and actually slow to shift during the initial test drive around town. Once I got to higher speeds and on the freeway, shifts were very fast and smooth in the higher gears.

Ken1997TL

Exactly this.

BEAR-AvHistory

Not exactly because the Honda rig uses the TC in 1st & 2nd. 1st would get you off the line but unless the trans has a start in 2nd mode its covering the 1 to 2 shift in addition to anything else it might be doing in 2nd gear.

The DCT is dumb & will not do anything unless its given in instructions through its software.

A nice performing DCT in a car with decent power will spin the tires on the 1/2-2/3 & sometimes the 3/4 shifts so the shift intensity needs to be managed in concert with the in gear performance of the car.

You can drive a DCT off the line & smoothly at low speeds in "D" unless you have hammer feet or the software is limited in its application. In basic D mode if programmed correctly the throttle tip-in is also softened & lengthened to cut back on quick engine rev increases on the initial throttle press. It also eliminates quick changes in RPM with small throttle position changes like when driving slowly. The 335is & M3 had the same transmission but different software packages so they drove quite differently.

Also drove the PDK & 6MT back to back in a pair of Boxers & in basic "D" mode it felt like any other AT. Typically any of them in any mode but basic drive will get more aggressive which is what the design parameters are for.

Personally believe anyone with a reasonable "feel" for driving can be very very smooth in a DCT equipped car, obviously Honda disagrees. Thing I don't understand is why they just did not save themselves the trouble & skip the DCT altogether since its a performance box.

I can't see what the modified trans brings to the table.