internalaudit

I thought the 9-speed was going to come from ZF but I guess I was wrong.

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...-and-info-news

The four is mated to a new dual clutch eight-speed automatic that’s uniquely teamed with a torque converter, while the V-6 is allied with a new nine-speed automatic, developed by Honda. As with the nine-speed ZF-built automatic used in some Chryslers and Jaguars, the TLX has an electronic gear selector, but the Acura uses pushbuttons for gear selection. There is no traditional shift lever.


Hopefully, Honda got these transmissions right the first time.

H_CAR

C&D is wrong

internalaudit

So the 9-speed is from ZF?

weather

^^ yep...that is the word on the street.

H_CAR

I'm disgusted at the lazy Journalism on reviews concerning Acura.

Colin

Unless it's partially true. Maybe it's a ZF design manufactured under license by Honda? "Developed" could refer to software development to mate the engine with transmission.

csmeance

Either if it's from ZF or Honda, I don't expect anything to reliable & I'd certainly buy an extended warranty. ZF claims lifetime fluids, has some shitty seals and parts that cause failure. I've been through 1 ZF trans in my 760, (many 7 series owners are needing replacements for the 6spd trans, BMW is starting to do replacements on 2011 5-series, etc and BMW owners with new ZF transmission after moderate-high mileage (so 50+K miles) are needing repairs left and right.

TheAcAvenger

Yeah, ZF manufactured 6AT 335s are going through have been going through seals for years on e90post. I don't know who i'm more afraid of though. I think I was up to tranny number 3 when I sold the TL

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^just bring back the 6MT.
Problem solved.

Rocketsfan

Chrysler actually builds the 9 speed ZF transmission under license from ZF, so who knows.

docboy

Even though the 6MT will have to deal with a likely 3rd gear pop out issue, it's a far less serious issue than transmission rebuilds

Weather has a point. 2 new transmissions is not reassuring, and now that I think about it, it could be a dealer breaker b/c the whole point of buying an Acura is reliability.

It might take Acura until the MMC for them to work out likely transmission kinks/failures.

internalaudit

And I thought these ZF's were bullet proof, I guess they were during the warranty periods.

I'd be surprise if Honda's rendition would prove more reliable.

jshaw

The new 8 speed transmissions seem to be, just as Honda's 6 speed mostly resolved any lingering issues from the 5 speed.

BEAR-AvHistory

You realize to fix the third gear problem they "rebuild" the trans with a new 3rd gear assembly & in my case also a new reverse gear assembly. I swapped a lot of gears in the old Muncie rock crushers & every time you are effectively rebuilding the trans since you have to take it apart to get the gears, baulk rings & synchros off the shafts.

TeamAcura

If it's really a ZF tranny, wouldn't they say it's the new ZF 9HP transmission? They are capable of building them and I can't see why they can't develop their own either since they are introducing the world's first 8 speed DCT w/ a torque converter. And there is nothing official saying they are using a ZF developed 9 speed transmission. Only rumors. So far, Wikipedia and C&D are saying it's a Honda transmission. I think if it's really a ZF transmission, it just means they gave up and threw in the towel. I don't believe they would do such a thing. We'll have to wait and see.

jshaw

Ford's current 6 speed truck auto is a ZF license design. They don't go around blaring that fact around.


Honda's DCTs all source their components from Schaeffler (LuK - they are probably more well known for their Subaru/Audi CVT, and VW DSG boxes).


None of these are in-house designs. Honda threw in the towel on their own geared automatics almost a decade ago, when they decided to delay their already late 6 speed automatic till 2009, and to this day, refuse to implement it, or something better, across their lineup (CR-V still gets a 5 speed).




IMO, this is a good thing for Honda. Automatics were never their strong suit, despite a long history of engineering and making them all in-house. Baring choosing the wrong partner, Honda should be in a stronger position, going forward (ZF 9 speed has caused numerous delays already, and Luk's supply of DSGs to VW has been subject to many recalls - the 7 speed DSG in particular).

TeamAcura

I refuse to believe they gave up on the Hondamatic! This is their propietary transmission. They put way too many R&D into it to just give up. It is true though they are using components from Schaeffler for their current DCTs. I'm not so sure about the one in the TLX. But maybe they are, there is no confirmation if they are or aren't.

docboy

Good point, I didn't realize the labor involved.

Speaking of reverse, it's also somewhat problematic; the manual does state to "row" the gear from R to 1st to avoid the transmission being stuck in R (which happened to me once and caused my TL to roll forward and hit a concrete barrier; driver's error, of course).

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

this is good practice!
if you watch race car drivers they always put into a different gear first, then the gear they want.

i pull face into the garage.
before I reverse I always put it in first before going into R

MyCorvette

The TLX will be coming with the ZF developed 9-speed transmission. However from this technical article it looks like pursuing more gears will be punished by unsmoothness for some shifting situations. Did anyone try the ZF 9-speed AT on other car models?

vbx

If Americans only knew how to drive stick shift or weren't so lazy. We wouldn't have these stupid wars about 9 speed bitch sticks.

BEAR-AvHistory

Rowing is pretty common with non-syncro gears to line then up. Some of my early production class race cars, Triumph TR-3A & Morgan +4SS had a non-syncro first gear. Lots of luck just quickly pushing the stick into gear. Ugly noise time or no engagement. Pull back into 2nd push forward into 1st every time.

Was happy to get a TR-3B had a full syncro box Big time modern upgrade.

BEAR-AvHistory

Think those days are well over. Started in late 1960's in the old SS/A & SS/AA class at the drags when the super stock Dodge/Plymouth automatics got quicker than the sticks.

Today the DCT is the weapon of choice with the ZF 8/9 speed boxes second & the MT as a fun car variant.

Personally not a MT hater, sill have 3 including the 135 & Cobra. Also was one of the last bracket racers at Englishtown running a MT with a 4 speed Stingray.

That said as a competitive gearbox its well in its way out. The new Stingray & Porsche have 7MT's. But the top of the line Porsche GT-3 is a PDK only buy & GM races the Stingray with a DCT. The 2015 Z06 will have an 8 speed auto.

Rocket_man

The systems engineering task of developing a new car is pretty daunting. More and more susbsystems are outsourced. Pretty much every infotainment system is outsourced, navigation system too. These new transmissions, driven by a need to improve MPG and performance, are pretty complex. Developing it in house takes a lot of resources. Outsourcing spreads the non-recurring costs across multiple manufacturers and hopefully the larger installed base will improve maintenance and reliability versus a unique proprietary design. Honda/Acura were bitten by in-house transmission issues and maybe that had something to do with the decision to outsource these. Sure they could have put the existing 6AT in the cars but that would have resulted in lower performance and higher MPG. No one would want the CVT in thier Acura. So this is where they went. Only time will tell if it was the right decision.

I don't think it has anything to do with laziness. MT's have been on their way out for years. There was a time when most cars were MT's, but consumers vote with their pocketbooks and the vast majority just want ATs. Like they want power windows and locks and A/C and anti-lock brakes etc etc. I've put over 100K miles on an MT and don't care to go back. An MT does nothing positive for me as I drive from red light to red light, in fact it is mostly a pain to me. There are a small group of car buyers that want an MT, but they get smaller and smaller every year. For those that want to shift their own gears it is getting harder and harder to get that choice, but these new transmissions may offer the best of both worlds for 95% of buyers. For an increasing amount of manufacturers it is just not worth it to keep offering it.

internalaudit

+1
As long as I can lock into gears, unlike our current 5-speed AT, and upshift and downshift when I choose to, I don't mind the 9-speed auto.

neuronbob

.....and put a 6MT in the 6 cyl SH-AWD Advance model.....the one enthusiasts would be most likely to buy.

YeuEmMaiMai

Fixed it lol

98-4AT just had crap parts and once you rebuild them properly, they seem to last a very long time. 5AT or newer just seems to be bad news...

Ken1997TL

My understanding is that it is a modified ZF design, made by Honda and it will be compatible with hybrid technology. So expect this in other vehicles soon..

vbx

Automatic windows is different from transmissions. lol

6mt is just more fun to drive. When buying a sports car, fun factor has a lot to do with it. Not just speed.

It's about having full control, the revs, etc etc. Driving an automatic to me is just dull and boring. I wish I had kept my 6mt honestly.

My next car will be a 6mt. If Infiniti drops the ball on the Q60 Coupe, I might just head over to Audi. Unless Hyundai comes up with an awesome Gen Coupe.

Not everyone wants a 6mt, I get that, but what's wrong with having it as an OPTION? Like a special order option if they don't want to stock it.

We'll see what 2015 - 2016 brings.

Rocket_man

Let's face it, the TLX is not a sports car. Not many 4 doors sedans are sports cars (with the possible exception of the Panamera and maybe an M5 or M3 all of which are in a different cost category). This is supposed to be a 'luxury sport sedan' which may have the word 'sport' in it, but that is more a marketing thing. Not many people are going to track their TLX. People buy this car for the luxury features in a daily driver and that includes having the car shift gears for you. Driving to the grocery store while shifting your own gears is really not that thrilling. I did it for years and don't miss it a bit. Even if they offered the MT, 95% of buyers will choose the AT. So while it may be a very strong desire for MT fans, they are in a shrinking minority. If Acura sold 50,000 TLX/yr then that means 2,500, maybe a little more, would be MTs. After all the non-recurring expenses to make an MT version of the car, those cars would probably not make a profit for Acura. Honda/Acura aren't set up like BMW to custom build cars. Maybe the only way they could make this work would be to offer just one trim, maybe one to two colors with an MT. That would probably make the sell rate even less. Maybe someday they will make a Type-S with an MT but to date they have not shown any indications they are going there. At least for the near future, Acura is willing to forego the MT buyer, hoping the DCT or 9HP with their performance will be enough for some of them. I think in the future, options for MT buyers will be even less and less.

If performance is that much of a priority, then shop for a nice sports car. But as soon as you choose 4 doors you are making about the biggest compromise you can right off the bat. Much more so than the difference between a DCT and an MT. An MT is not going to make up for the penalty of the 4 door platform. So maybe you want 4 doors because of the convenience, just like many want the AT for the same reason.

Nedmundo

One issue is that MT would require separate federal certification, which is yet another cost that eats into the already small profitability of a low volume drivetrain option. I do expect Acura to offer MT eventually in the TLX, and the transmissions from the current TSX and TL could probably work without much modification. Like Rocket Man said, if it is offered, buyers will have limited color and trim options, as with the TSX and TL.

Like others have said, the demise of MT is well under way. For years, MT offered better performance and fuel economy, but now the reverse is true, and modern DCT's and AT's allow drivers to hold gears to provide the control of an MT. So choosing MT is purely a matter of driver engagement, and outside of sports cars the market for that is vanishingly small. (In some cars, MT is still cheaper, and will capture some cost sensitive buyers. I have friends who have chosen it for that reason.)

I'm still firmly in the MT camp, but have to admit I'm intrigued by the 8DCT in the I4 TLX. I'm curious how that will compare to, say, a 320i with 6MT.

fsttyms1

Sure we would. DCTs are superior for performance. All the supercars are using them and ditching the manuals. Manuals used to do something that autos couldnt, now DCTs are doing something that manuals couldnt.

fsttyms1

Personally i would want a 8 speed DCT connected to it, and this is coming from someone who converted their TL to a manual.

fsttyms1

More fun to drive than a DCT?? No, DCTs give you the same control over the gear you are in as a manual, its faster shifting up and down, its replacing the manuals full control over to a better faster gearbox much in the same way the manual had its advantage over the auto.

hadokenuh

But a DCT doesn't have the third pedal. When will people understand faster shifting doesn't equal to manual transmission fun?

fsttyms1

And when will people understand that pushing a 3rd pedal doesnt equal more fun.

internalaudit

Just need to be able to lock gears in and upshift and downshift manually and I'm good with either TLX tranny.

Ken1997TL

Tell that to my S2000 with a straight face.

winstrolvtec

Maybe not more fun for everyone and a manual doesn't automatically mean it's more fun than an auto but certainly more engaging, whether someone finds that more fun or not as well.

vbx

Well, I sold my 6mt G35 and got a Q50. And I can tell you from my personal experience, automatics are boring. I'm also more angry during traffic now for some reason. LOL

In my 6mt, I wasn't as sleepy and tired while driving. I can see why people who drive autos think that driving a manual in traffic would suck. Cause it sucks pretty bad while driving an auto.

But I didn't feel the same with my 6mt. This is just my own personal experience. Not everyone feels that way but that's why we should have options. To fit different needs and wants.

What makes driving fun? Stomping on the gas and stomping on the brakes? Using a bltch paddle? lol

Yes, 3rd peddle, shifting plus listening to the engine rev makes the driving experience that much more fun. Especially for a "sports car".