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I know everyone wants a 400+ HP Acura TLX for 2020 model. But honestly, I am not sure why???
HP is important but I don't see a difference between 365 or 400 HP as far the car is a good package. If the 2020 TLX provides 350 HP but a nice interior, transmissions, seats, features and design. I promise you it will sell like RDX. Infiniti has a 400 HP Q50/60 with a very good price range. But still it's not selling as good as it should. In Canada a 400 HP fully loaded Q50 is around 60-65K tax in. I think it's much cheaper than the Germans. But yet, the Q50s sales numbers are lower than TLX in Canada.
IMHO, 350 or 380 HP is fine as far as Acura packages TLX like they did back in 2004 with TL. The success will follow...or what they just did with RDX.
What Bo here is inarticulately trying to say is that the market is different in the US from Canada. PS...it’s cold in Cleveland six months a year.
To answer your question, you have to remember that people who post here are enthusiasts and they make up a tiny portion of the market. Most people don’t NEED 400 hp, or don’t want the costs that go along with it (higher fuel cost, insurance cost, tire cost). Most people are like my wife—they want A to B transport.
I am one of those who would pay extra money for a high performance car, and I have, multiple times. I’d be interested in a TLX-S for sure. Acura will balance power with reliability and fuel economy, and make a decision. 400 hp would be awesome, but I’m not expecting it.
I know everyone wants a 400+ HP Acura TLX for 2020 model. But honestly, I am not sure why???
HP is important but I don't see a difference between 365 or 400 HP as far the car is a good package. If the 2020 TLX provides 350 HP but a nice interior, transmissions, seats, features and design. I promise you it will sell like RDX. Infiniti has a 400 HP Q50/60 with a very good price range. But still it's not selling as good as it should. In Canada a 400 HP fully loaded Q50 is around 60-65K tax in. I think it's much cheaper than the Germans. But yet, the Q50s sales numbers are lower than TLX in Canada.
IMHO, 350 or 380 HP is fine as far as Acura packages TLX like they did back in 2004 with TL. The success will follow...or what they just did with RDX.
I don't see any way at high performance type S will sell even a fraction of what the RDX does. Even the 07/08 type S sales where a small fraction of TLX sales. Acura knows this. Even on these forums few of the 3rd gen owners sprang for the type S. Most tlx buyers opt for near base level packages and the type S will be priced all the way at the top. I don't know what the breakdown of 07/08 TL's to Type S models where but I know from driving around over the years non-type S models where common and in an average month I probably saw 1 or 2 type S if any at all even though that type S had about all the nice upgrades that people on these forums want today over the base model. IMO cost will deter most buyers to a lower model.
Don't get me wrong I want the type S is that's the last Acura I really thought did everything well but the fact is most Acura buyers will opt for a lower cost variant.
Also the type S may be a bit delayed "The timeline for the new Type-S models is set for the future with the automaker slowly introducing the new engines over the coming model years." I would guess the move to the 4 cyl would hit first and the type S sometime later. Ideally it would be nice if they brought a sporty coupe out since Acura totally sits out that market while (lexus, audi, infiniti, bmw, mercedes and so on) all have at least one model available. I don't consider the NSX as a real offering since its price tag around 150k which is ridiculous and you can get a new 911 for less than that, cover 10 years of maintenance on it, and have money left over to build a new garage to keep it in.
^^^
1 minor off-topic excursion: Go drive a NC1 NSX. I had a chance to thrash one both on the track and in normal driving a few months ago. It's worth every penny at base price, only needing a lift kit and a touch more power IMO. I wantsssss one eventually. Otherwise, you are correct as it's not a coupe offering meant for the masses, it's a halo car.
oh, you have breakout numbers specific to red sport sales? please share the link......... (waiting) ............
overall Q50 sales are slightly higher than TLX down here in the states where there isn't ice on the ground 11 months of the year
I am sorry, unfortunately I don't have it by type but if Infiniti sold 200 units in a given month. I can guarantee you 50% if not more of them are the regular 2.0 or 3.0 models.
Yes, in the US, Q50 sales numbers are higher than Canada. But in Canada TLX beats Q50.
What Bo here is inarticulately trying to say is that the market is different in the US from Canada. PS...it’s cold in Cleveland six months a year.
To answer your question, you have to remember that people who post here are enthusiasts and they make up a tiny portion of the market. Most people don’t NEED 400 hp, or don’t want the costs that go along with it (higher fuel cost, insurance cost, tire cost). Most people are like my wife—they want A to B transport.
I am one of those who would pay extra money for a high performance car, and I have, multiple times. I’d be interested in a TLX-S for sure. Acura will balance power with reliability and fuel economy, and make a decision. 400 hp would be awesome, but I’m not expecting it.
Honestly, I would be surprised if the Type S to come winds up with anything more than 360hp. However, if they can tune the chassis enough to be in the conversation with cars like the 340i etcetera and keep the curb weight at reasonable levels (all the while maintaining reliability and respectable fuel economy) then I think the TLX-S will wind up being a very competitive offering.
Those who are demanding that the TLX-S become the second coming of the AR Giulia Quadrifoglio or even the underrated Audi S4, have an unrealistic expectation of this brand.
1. I can't believe people are whining about a high performance variant coming out (see original post)
2. It's not supposed to compete sales wise or price wise against the lower trims. No sport model ever does this.
3. What it does is gives people like NB what they actually want in a car, and makes all other lower trim owners envious... As well as those who don't have one and still want one. It grows brand awareness. Something Acura hasn't done over the last 10 years except with the new NSX. This type S is an attainable performance car for the every man... Instead of a 150k exotic.
4. Who the hell complains about more power? Must not be a car enthusiast
Agree with F23A4 & Tony Pac. Don't think they will go for 400BHP. Could be wrong but its not the raw number but how well the whole package employs it.
I am at 355BHP advertised & none, nada, zero of the current 400BHP cars in the performance class like the Stinger or Red is quicker. In most cases they run with or slightly qucker then 320BHP standard engine's 4.2 seconds 0-60mph X 12.9 seconds -109mph quarter mile . The new generation M340/440 will be either 383BHP or 385BHP advertised I have seen both numbers, might be a Euro vs US software thing.
So they are putting a sub 400BHP marker down for their best selling lineup. Given the importance of the 3/4 series to their profitability & image its suggesting 400BHP not a magic "have to have" number. Right now most of the German sub $60K performance cars show middle to upper middle 300BHP's & will outrun the Korean & Japanese competition.
The Koreans & Japanese cars are advertising 400 & 400+ cars but so far they don't perform as expected for that power range.
Acura I think the V6T try to match raw performance with fuel economy, a place where their current V6NA falls short on both metrics .
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-22-2018 at 01:35 PM.
I don't consider the NSX as a real offering since its price tag around 150k which is ridiculous and you can get a new 911 for less than that, cover 10 years of maintenance on it, and have money left over to build a new garage to keep it in.
Oh hey, it's the same old tired argument against the NSX again. "Look at how many other cars you can buy for 150k or less!"
Agree with F23A4 & Tony Pac. Don't think they will go for 400BHP. Could be wrong but its not the raw number but how well the whole package employs it.
I am at 355BHP advertised & none, nada, zero of the current 400BHP cars in the performance class like the Stinger or Red is quicker. In most cases they run with or slightly qucker then 320BHP standard engine's 4.2 seconds 0-60mph X 12.9 seconds -109mph quarter mile . The new generation M340/440 will be either 383BHP or 385BHP advertised I have seen both numbers, might be a Euro vs US software thing.
So they are putting a sub 400BHP marker down for their best selling lineup. Given the importance of the 3/4 series to their profitability & image its suggesting 400BHP not a magic "have to have" number. Right now most of the German sub $60K performance cars show middle to upper middle 300BHP's & will outrun the Korean & Japanese competition.
The Koreans & Japanese cars are advertising 400 & 400+ cars but so far they don't perform as expected for that power range.
Acura I think the V6T try to match raw performance with fuel economy, a place where their current V6NA falls short on both metrics .
BHP has no metric anymore, due to turbos. Every manufacturer seems to quote power differently. Many manufacturers underrate their engines. You never know what you’re even comparing.
Your base 355hp car likely is putting that down at the wheels, if I’ve noticed anything about bmw and turbos. Power output at the crank likely is 385hp.
I bet the new 340/440 is in the very low 400s, if they’re claiming it to have 385bhp.
I know HP can vary from car to car simply due to manufacturing. I wonder if manufacturers quote the lowest possible HP number as being BHP, while knowing that most of their cars are a margin above that claim. I dunno.
Agree with F23A4 & Tony Pac. Don't think they will go for 400BHP. Could be wrong but its not the raw number but how well the whole package employs it.
I am at 355BHP advertised & none, nada, zero of the current 400BHP cars in the performance class like the Stinger or Red is quicker. In most cases they run with or slightly qucker then 320BHP standard engine's 4.2 seconds 0-60mph X 12.9 seconds -109mph quarter mile . The new generation M340/440 will be either 383BHP or 385BHP advertised I have seen both numbers, might be a Euro vs US software thing.
So they are putting a sub 400BHP marker down for their best selling lineup. Given the importance of the 3/4 series to their profitability & image its suggesting 400BHP not a magic "have to have" number. Right now most of the German sub $60K performance cars show middle to upper middle 300BHP's & will outrun the Korean & Japanese competition.
The Koreans & Japanese cars are advertising 400 & 400+ cars but so far they don't perform as expected for that power range.
Acura I think the V6T try to match raw performance with fuel economy, a place where their current V6NA falls short on both metrics .
I get a feeling Acura vehicels are relatively lighter so they can decide output based on power to weight ratio of this class. In general, this categoy of vehicles get 0-60 in 4.3-4.6 seconds and Acura needs to be in that range. Drive feel is also very important at this performance level and i hope Acura improves it to the max possible. My definition of "precision crafted performance" is vehicle does what driver asks it to do and driver get the feel that vehicle is doing what s/he is asking it to do.
You’re right though. I don’t think the Type S needs 400hp either. It’s just dick swinging at that point.
I’m realistically expecting 360-365hp, due to it ultimately being conservative Honda.
That being said, Honda likes to underrate it’s engines too. I wouldn’t be surprise if the claimed HP is what we see to the wheels. So in essence, 400hp
You’re right though. I don’t think the Type S needs 400hp either. It’s just dick swinging at that point.
I’m realistically expecting 360-365hp, due to it ultimately being conservative Honda.
That being said, Honda likes to underrate it’s engines too. I wouldn’t be surprise if the claimed HP is what we see to the wheels. So in essence, 400hp
One more thing i wish they do for Type S models is to eliminate understeer, use whatever they can leverage from CTR.
OMG such winers here. Go buy a Prius. Yes, bring 400 HP!!! I will be definitely getting it. Acura needs to raise their image to break away from Honda +. You can't half ass it. The car will be put to test against all competition. You can't get trashed get bad reviews and have people lining up to buy it. Sedan market is weak if you want to succeed you need to be at the top or close to it. Otherwise, just forget your sedan line up and stick to SUV's. Next gen TLX must be a game changer or it could be the last.
I don't see 400 HP - at least not anytime soon and not from Honda / Acura. They are too mainstream and are interested in selling lots of cars (units). I'm betting they come in at 330 tops as this would be a significant increase over where they are today. Maybe 350 for a Type-S variant and I would be good with that I could be surprised and maybe Acura will step up and deliver on some of their marketing hype, but somehow I don't see it.
I bet the new 340/440 is in the very low 400s, if they’re claiming it to have 385bhp.
You win the current base 320BHP dynos at 331WHP could be anywhere from 365HP to 380HP at the crank depending on the actual drive train parasitic loss.
The 355BHP MPPSK dynos at 368WHP for 404HP to 423HP at the crank same as above on the parasitic loss.
Point is, to keep the EU bureaucrats off their collective cases its common among all the German car manufactures to do this under rating. That carries through to advertising numbers & advertising performance claims. Its the main reason C&D, R&T etc are always able to beat the factory numbers in their road tests.
Acura could do the same thing. With a 360/370BHP advertising rating they would not be out of the game if the car was a 4.X to 60mph & a 13.0 second 1/4 mile performer around 108-110mph. By not over-claiming they can be winners without having to be number 1 in the numbers game just like Generation 3 TL was. If they claim high output & its perceived that it can't run to the claim they lose.
I bet the new 340/440 is in the very low 400s, if they’re claiming it to have 385bhp.
You win the current base 320BHP dynos at 331WHP could be anywhere from 365HP to 380HP at the crank depending on the actual drive train parasitic loss.
The 355BHP MPPSK dynos at 368WHP for 404HP to 423HP at the crank same as above on the parasitic loss.
Point is, to keep the EU bureaucrats off their collective cases its common among all the German car manufactures to do this under rating. That carries through to advertising numbers & advertising performance claims. Its the main reason C&D, R&T etc are always able to beat the factory numbers in their road tests.
BMW 440 320HP coupe official 0-60 4.6 C&D test 4.2
Acura could do the same thing. With a 360/370BHP advertising rating they would not be out of the game if the car was a 4.X to 60mph & a 13.0 second 1/4 mile performer around 108-110mph. By not over-claiming they can be winners without having to be number 1 in the numbers game just like Generation 3 TL was. If they claim high output & its perceived that it can't run to the claim they lose.
Acura could do the same thing. With a 360/370BHP advertising rating they would not be out of the game if the car was a 4.X to 60mph & a 13.0 second 1/4 mile performer around 108-110mph. By not over-claiming they can be winners without having to be number 1 in the numbers game just like Generation 3 TL was. If they claim high output & its perceived that it can't run to the claim they lose.
Agreed. I mean it's easy to under-rate it and then get some good publicity in enthusiast news circles. Easy PR move. This is slightly off-topic, but I'm always curious at why enthusiasts fawn over "under rated" cars which Porsche I think are also known to do. As if they are getting "more" hp than they paid for. It seems to me is an easy way to make some buzz and they choose not to accurately rate their hp ratings.
I'm thinking the Type-S will be around 350hp. Still a huge improvement over what is currently available. They could pull an Infiniti and tune the 3.0T for different trims.
2.0T trims - 280hp (assuming same output as the RDX)
Type-S - 350 hp range
Type-R - 400 hp range
I am at 355BHP advertised & none, nada, zero of the current 400BHP cars in the performance class like the Stinger or Red is quicker.
The Koreans & Japanese cars are advertising 400 & 400+ cars but so far they don't perform as expected for that power range.
link or lie? do you have a link from an accredited publication that shows acceleration testing of the 440i from 5 - 60 mph quicker than 5.0 secs, or 0 - 100 mph quicker than 10.5?
link or lie? do you have a link from an accredited publication that shows acceleration testing of the 440i from 5 - 60 mph quicker than 5.0 secs, or 0 - 100 mph quicker than 10.5?
if not i call lie
C&R road test Base 320BHP engine 331WHP. Mine is the MPPSK 355BHP M performance Power Pack factory Option 369WHP.
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.4 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 10.8 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 19.2 sec
Zero to 150 mph: 28.8 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 5.0 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 2.8 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 3.3 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 12.9 sec @ 109 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 155 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 166 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.86 g
But he has a JB4 tune which at that level is the rough equivalent on the factory MPPSK but I can't use it as documented proof. That said 112mph terminal speed for a 3600lb car supports 406BHP at the crank.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-23-2018 at 10:14 AM.
That said 112mph terminal speed for a 3600lb car supports 406BHP at the crank.
okay, so using your own calculations, what BHP does 112 mph terminal speed for a 3895 lb car support? what BHP does 111 mph terminal speed for a 4004 lb car support?
i think you just defeated your own initial statements above
okay, so using your own calculations, what BHP does 112 mph terminal speed for a 3895 lb car support? what BHP does 111 mph terminal speed for a 4004 lb car support?
i think you just defeated your own initial statements above
Original statement:
Agree with F23A4 & Tony Pac. Don't think they will go for 400BHP. Could be wrong but its not the raw number but how well the whole package employs it. I am at 355BHP advertised & none, nada, zero of the current 400BHP cars in the performance class like the Stinger or Red is quicker.
Not sure what you are looking for but more weight will equal more horsepower to make the speed & less weight will take less horsepower to make the speed, pure physics. Thats the reason my 2250lbs 500BHP+ COBRA will eat most street driven cars lunch & steal their snack money
One thing I did mistake was looking at the wrong weight for the 440 had looked at the 4 cylinder model, the C&D test said the 440i they tested was 3710lbs not the 3600lbs I posted. So the hole looks deeper for the 3895lbs car then I thought because the additional weight would of course increase the BMW's power requirement to make the speed.
Point is my 440i has a better balance of weight to horsepower & outruns porky Red 400 @ 3895lbs. Only thing defeated is the Japanese & Korean cars in a heads up drag race against a 340/440 MPPSK 355BHP advertised power. They will just edge out the base 320BHP engine in some but not all cases.
Never claimed I had more horsepower just that my car was quicker & that the TLX future horsepower rating was not as important compared to how well it ran.
Thing is BMW has recognized my car is to fat & the new series will drop around 200lbs along with getting 385BPH advertised.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-23-2018 at 02:36 PM.
I want to say if you're going to make a high performance car, ask why? I mean why not? If you going to do something, do it. Why is the nsx the only Honda yes Honda that's across their entire lineup including the little civic r, that makes you go whoa
If you don't want it or think it's too much you can get the lower HP variation of the tlx. They all should get more power. The advance v6 should be in the 330-350 range
this was your initial statement that you are now too proud to admit was defeated by your own subsequent calculations. the end.
Pros agree with me about what is wrong with the Japanese & Korean 400/400+ claims in the real world.
Car & Driver says about the 467BHP GS-F:
"What’s a nearly $90,000 hot-rod sedan doing........besides getting its doors blown off by the competition in straight-line acceleration?"
You all bent over the low powered German cars whacking the mighty 400's?
"The end" is actually the back end tail light view that both the RED 400's & GS-F see of my 355 440i in as Car & Driver put it "competition in straight-line acceleration"
BMW 440i 320BHP C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.4 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 12.9 sec @ 109 mph
GS-F 467BHP C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.4 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 12.9 sec @ 113 mph
A 147BHP advertised advantage & all it can do is tie the base model 440, Really?
Infiniti RED Q50S 400BHP C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.5 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.0 sec @ 112 mph
A 80BHP advertised advantage & it looses to the base model 440
Infiniti RED Q60 400BHP C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.5 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.3 sec @ 109 mph
A 80BHP advertised advantage & it looses to the base model 440
Your not driving one of these are you? Remember where the rubber meets the track second place in a drag race looses & thats what people see. Perception is reality & my car really has a lot more horsepower but is to fat to compete heads up against the Germans does not change what people see.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-23-2018 at 10:51 PM.
Bo, enough with the trolling. If you persist, you will be given a vacation from the forum. You will only receive one warning.
seems an awfully one-sided and patently unfair position to take only towards me, particularly when you look at the much more inflammatory comments made by the other party. sleep well tonight.
Doubt they will get close to 400HP and don't really think that will bring more buyers in.
What I would like.
1) 340-360Hp mated to a responsive transmission.
2) Bring the shift lever back with the left swing over to hit a true manual mode that will not up shift to the next gear but rather have the rev limiter will kick in. Also when downshifting not have the "surge" forward like the current TLX but actually be able to use it like the 3rd gen type S to downshift up to a light where it seems natural and you barely touch the brakes till you want to fully stop.
3) Not go overboard on the low profile tires. Already on the A-Spec have had some tire claims on the wheel insurance.
4) Don't over stiffen the suspension. One thing on the 3rd gen type S the ride was kinda harsh and IMO the A-Spec sh-Awd suspension wise is near spot on with very little lean and great handling through corners under acceleration while still providing a comfortable ride for everyone.
5) Body mods that are not ridiculous like the civic type R but distinguish it from the other variants of the TLX.
6) Brembo brake package.
7) Quad exhaust which looks like it's coming back. It's a great look and forget about the piped in exhaust noise. Tune the exhaust like the 3rd gen type S where you get a quite ride and when you punch on it you get the nice growl inside and outside the car.
8) Better front seats with some more bolster in them.
9) Offer it in lunar silver or some variation close. Literally one of the three top colors of cars and you can't get it in the A-Spec.
10) Full leather seats with more color offerings.
11) Bring back the aluminum pedals.
That's my gripes or wish list.
add on:
12) Do not make it a hybrid.
13) Make idle stop a permanent setting.
14) Use round headlamps rather than the jewel on the Type S and have the LED surrounds white with the option to not have daytime running lights on at all times but have the LED's run only during the day. (minor thing but the look is nice).
11-22-2018, 08:07 AM
we have seen evidence of this already.
Oh hey, it's the same old tired argument against the NSX again. "Look at how many other cars you can buy for 150k or less!" 
I could be surprised and maybe Acura will step up and deliver on some of their marketing hype, but somehow I don't see it.
