Fossil_TL

why is the new CTS so damn expensive, for that money, i'd rather get something european. Its a nice vehicle, but not worth the sky rocketing MSRP price, perhaps I can pick one up 3 years from now when all the leasees turn their cars in.

rp_guy

http://www.cadillac.com/cadillacjsp/...=cts&year=2008

try again

AS3.0CL

once u start adding options.......it gets up that high.....it's a nice car but i wouldn't pay that much for the car.

dallison

esp since you could prob pick one up for 20k for a 3 yr old

NightHawk CL9

That's the price an optioned 335i sedan goes for, the coupe more, and a convertable is well above 50k.... its not expensive compared to its competitors... lets not even start on the BMW 5series, E-class, GS, M35/45.....

Mokos23

yeah, rather get an IS350, G35 sedan, or upcoming new 2nd gen TSX or new 4th gen TL for cheaper.

FiveLiterCheater

If only that were the price of the new 550hp CTS-V...

cuteguy1414

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't buy this car at 30 grand until the reliability is proven..

F23A4

Newport Center Mall (Jersey City, NJ) had two or three on display....with sticker prices at $48k!! Loaded G35s, TL-S and IS350s do not even approach that price. I checked out the CTS yesterday morning with my wife and we were both disappointed that a car with a 35k sticker (base non-DI 3.6) did not have a sunroof.

LuvMyTSX

Hmm....that is very disappointing. Sounds very overpriced. I think they screwed themselves. Maybe they got a little cocky or something.

fsttyms1

Find a car in its class for cheaper. The TL and G35 really arent in its class. Its class is the 5 series. And that fully loaded 47 (atleast on the caddy lot here) is for AWD. the ones ive looked at pretty well off were 38-40

I dont think so.

NightHawk CL9

Its like comparing the TL and the Chevy Malibu, the Chevy is $29K, TL is $34K you have to compare class to class, even caddy says they are not going after the entry luxury.

mrdeeno

The CTS is Caddy's entry-level luxury offering (in the same market segment as the TL, G35, IS/ES, 3-series, etc.). If they are trying to market it as a midsize luxury sedan (5-series, A6, GS, etc.), then the CTS is competing with their very own midsize luxury STS.

Another thing to realize is there are no other midsize luxury models that START at around $33k, which is indicative that the CTS is ENTRY-LEVEL luxury, not midsize luxury.

Fossil_TL

If CTS is same class as the 5s and A6, then what is STS for?

mrdeeno

Word.

The TL is about the same size as the RL. I don't hear anyone saying the TL should be competing with 5-series and A6's. Why should anyone say otherwise for the CTS just because it can be OPTIONED up to midsize luxury prices? One can option a midsize luxury sedan up to S-class/7-series starting prices, but that doesn't all of a sudden make that model jump to a different market segment.

Will Y.

The CTS is the entry-level lux car for Cadillac, like the BMW 3-series or Audi A4. It can't be compared to the 5-series or A6, esp. with the base motor. The MSRP of the CTS can be optioned up to high $40s with the DI engine, most expensive option package, special paint, sport suspension/wheels and AWD.

However, how many people have bought/leased a heavily-optioned CTS based on MSRP? GM practice for years has been to give rebates on everything. I remember looking at the CTS in 2005-- the MSRPs were high, but they were actually going out the door for the same as the TL- slightly less than the G35.

I like the new interior (but prefer the old exterior ), but the historic depreciation and reliability of the CTS are concerns.

SRK85

WTF wood trim is extra and 3,000 for NAV. The options suck I rather have a 335I with Nav for like 42,000.

Mokos23

add resale value as another concern for me anyways. Lexus, BMW, Acura, and Infiniti's have better resale value than Cadillac I think.

mrdeeno

not sure but maybe except for the escalade.

i have a feeling resale will get better for caddy as more young people get into them. That was pretty much Caddy's problem until the 1G CTS came along...they were "old" people's cars. They did a great job turning that image around by offering much more exciting products (most people I see driving CTS's are less than middle age...in fact, a friend of mine who is younger than me just bought a used CTS). Just using the reaction on Acurazine as a gauge, Caddy's been doing ok lately getting younger people into the fold, or at least more interested in their cars.

Point to note is that resale isn't based only on design, quality, or reliability (see VW and Audi, MB and less reliable german cars as examples). It's based on how popular the car is both new and used.

F23A4

Thank you.

fsttyms1

It may be the entry level but its the same size as the 5(midsized). Why cant it be compared to with the base motor? BMW has a small motor in the 5. Atleast caddy offers engine options unlike the G and TL. Not to mention with the way GM works, you will get a heavily optioned cts for the same or less than its competitors, which with its looks and better interior i would take over the competition.

fsttyms1

Exactly. As they continue (if they keep going on this path) much younger people will be looking at them and resale will improve

F23A4

Both the base G35 and CTS sticker @ $35Kish but, the Caddy "only" has the 263hp 3.6L (versus the G35's 306hp) has vinyl seats and a sunroof is not avail at that price. (And we know that the 286hp TL-S can be acquired at $35k...despite its $38k sticker.)

As far as size goes, the Toyota Avalon is a bit larger but I have not heard anyone compare it to a 5 or 7 series. (And before someone starts in with the 'Toyota Avalon is not a premium car' argument, they had better drive one first as it is clearly a Lexus in Toyota clothing.)

Sidenote: Edmunds shows that prospective CTS buyers are cross shopping it with the TL, C class, 3 series and ES350.

FastAcura

Sorry buddy, but you got it all wrong. It's an entry level luxury Sedan. As it's been mentioned, the E, 5, A6, GS and M35/45 compete with the STS.

fsttyms1

Yea and not every one paper races with who has more. The fact is is that its more car for the same or less money.
You talk about the CTS interior, But to me its far better looking than the G.I could pick on the inerior materials in that just as well. Not to mention i HATE moon roofs.

Yes they are cross shopping with those because those are the cars that are in the same price range. But like i said before, you get more car (interior/exterior size) for the same or less$$
Thats just my from my time test driving

Sorry buddy i dont have it all wrong, I never said it wasnt an entry level car, just that it really needs to be compared to cars in its class (which due to size) should be the 5 series , which starts at 44k(as most magazines say as well),

F23A4

If you are referring to the G35 then . That said, buyers in search of value are likely in neither showroom.

Subjective.

Fair enough, as to each his own. The CTS is the one for you as Acura, Infinti, BMW or Lexus all pretty much have moonroofs.


By that logic, the Civic sedan and Audi A4 are effectively competitors.

FastAcura

I still don't understand what the point of the STS is then. To steal sales away from the new CTS?

charliemike

No, the next STS will get bigger

I don't know why everyone is flipping out like ninjas. The A4 S-Line is $46k loaded. The 335i easily hits $47k. The G35 is $42k and the Lexus IS350 is at least $45k. The Mercedes C350 is $46k.

I think it's competitive.

fsttyms1

No because the civic is considered an economy car the A4 isnt. Not to mention the price point difference

The CTS is however still in the performance/luxury like the 5

fsttyms1

mrdeeno

Your comments are flip-flopping...so which is it? Are cars in a class based on size or on price or what it is "considered"? And considered by who...the public or what the manufacturer says? Caddy can say the CTS competes with the 5-series all they want, doesn't actually make it true.

The CTS doesn't compete in price to the midsize luxury sedans, which START around the price that the CTS tops out at. The CTS isn't considered a midsize luxury sedan, it is considered a near-luxury/entry luxury sedan. The only thing it has similar to the midsizers is size. But then again, the M35/45 is classified as a "large" sedan because of its interior volume. Does that mean it competes with the 7-series now?

I guess the TL competes with the 5-series too.

mrdeeno

exactly...it's competitive with other NEAR-LUXURY models, not with any midsize luxury models.

charliemike

So Caddy is pricing a near-lux car that gives you more space. *shrug*

Isn't that value?

fsttyms1

Its not flip flopping, i never said it was classed by price, but by size, in which the cts should be compared to the likes of the 5 series. It just happens that the CTS comes in much cheaper than the the cars in that size.

Why not? Because you said so?

Brandon24pdx

No manual transmission option = no thanks.

mrdeeno

Yeah, I'm not arguing the value, I'm arguing that the car doesn't compete with the 5-series or any other midsize luxury sedans (5, E, GS, M35/45, A6, S8, etc.) It may offer similar interior space, but that does not mean they are in the same class. Automakers do that all the time. The TL offers similar interior size as the RL, but that doesn't change the fact that the TL is an entry-level luxury sedan. Same with the CTS, it offers similar interior size to midsize-luxury sedans (RL, 5-series, GS, etc.), but that doesn't change the fact that it's still an entry-level luxury sedan.

Fossil_TL

That still doesn't make any sense, how can the size of a vehicle dictates its class.

300C is same size as a 7 series, it doesnt' make it a direct competitor.

Btw, if CTS does compete with 5 series or A6, then what is the purpose for STS. STS is a true competitor to the 5 or A6 since it tops out at 77K fully loaded with V spec package.

Comparing cars based on size doesn't make sense at all, consider the top end M3 cabrio will be in the 70K playing ground, doesn't make it an E class fighter

fsttyms1

Manual is an option

mrdeeno

So then why isn't a civic and A4 in the same class if you are classing by size?

In one post you say 2 cars in different price classes should be in the same class because of similar size (CTS and 5-series), then in another post you say 2 cars with similar size should not be in the same class because of different price classes.

So which is it? Are you using size or price or what?


No, because thats the general consensus among the market:

Entry Level Luxury
The entry-level luxury forms the beginning classification of the luxury vehicles; competition in this segment is typically fierce. It features vehicles with an MSRP approximately between $26,000 and $36,000 (though with options, particularly on the BMW 3 Series and Mercedes-Benz C-Class, they can creep well into the $40,000 to $60,000 range), a relatively high degree of comfort is manufactured by luxury brand. If the vehicle is manufactured by a non-luxury marque its base MSRP should exceed approximately $36k and it must place an emphasis on comfort. The equivalent classification in Britain is compact executive car.

This segment mostly includes the bottom vehicles in the line-up of luxury brands as well as the top-of-the-line models of some non-luxury brands. Vehicles in this segment include the Acura TSX, Acura TL, Alfa Romeo 159, Buick Lucerne, BMW 3 Series, Cadillac CTS, Chrysler 300, Mercury Grand Marquis, Lexus IS, Lexus ES, Audi A4, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Infiniti G35, Lincoln MKZ,Volvo S60, Volvo S40, Volvo V50, Saab 9-3, and the Jaguar X-Type.

Mid-Level Luxury
In order to be considered part of the middle-luxury segment, a vehicle should feature a base MSRP between approximately $36k and $60k[2], have a very high degree of comfort, and should have the latest or near latest technological and safety innovations. Customers in this segment also yield some priority to performance. Therefore, many car manufacturers produce these cars with V8s and some highly sophisticated 6-cylinder engines. In Britain, these models are commonly referred to as executive cars. Vehicles in this segment include the mid-range models of several luxury car manufacturers such as the Mercedes-Benz E-Class, BMW 5 Series, Holden Caprice, Holden Statesman, Audi A6, Saab 9-5, Lexus GS, and Jaguar S-Type/XF. There are also some flagship sedans in this segment. The Citroën C6, Alfa Romeo 166, Cadillac STS, Cadillac DTS, Chrysler 300C, Lincoln Town Car, Peugeot 607, Renault Vel Satis, Infiniti M35, Volvo S80, and Acura RL are all considered to be part of the mid-luxury segment due to their relatively low base MSRPs despite their rank as a "flagship sedan" and high-end like interiors.

This market is operated under western nameplates with some Japanese representation. It is mainly controlled by Germans, Americans, and Japanese.

High-end Luxury
This category includes many flagship vehicles of luxury brands such as the BMW 7-Series, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, or Lexus LS. Currently, all vehicles priced between the range of $60k and $100k are a part of this exclusive club.[2] The vehicles in this segment offer extremely high levels of quality and latest technological developments, as well as degrees of comfort at least equal to those found in mid-level luxury vehicles. There is no precise term in the United Kingdom; such a car would be simply called a luxury car.

Vehicles in this category include some of the models from the flagship lines of luxury car brands. Vehicles in this segment include the Lincoln Town Car L Series, Lexus LS, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, BMW 7 Series, Audi A8 Infiniti M45, and the Jaguar XJ. Mercedes' E-Class based Mercedes-Benz CLS-Class is also in this segment.The Volkswagen Phaeton is the only high-end luxury vehicle that is not sold under a luxury nameplate. The Phaeton is no longer sold in the United States due to low consumer demand, as many consumers were unwilling to spend upwards of US70,000 for a non-luxury nameplate.

This segment is operated under various German, British and Japanese nameplates, with some limited American nameplates.

fsttyms1

And that says it cant be compared or compete with them? because you can get it cheaper? If your looking at cars that are similar in size then it should be compared to cars of like size as well, and not solely on price