digital_b

for all you people who insist that bmw is all that you should aside from taking some medicine for sanity, try reading this:


http://www.autospies.com/article/ind...7&categoryId=1

EZZ

Some responders are complete morons if you read the letters. The guy cross shops the LS, the SC 430, BMW 645, and then a 911 turbo and then proceeds to call the turbo crap

IMO, the Acura is an excellent entry level lux sedan however, if I could afford an M3, M5, or 645C, you think I'd be driving an Acura :lol2: Sorry, but in an absolute sense, BMW (and I won't even mention the Porsche) kicks the crap out of the Japanese manufacturers.

takuyaah

i agree..the larger japanese manifactures have the best "bang for bucks" (value)..but i mean...when you take out the money factor...you know germans can make cars dude....but then again..when would money not be a factor? =) i think everyone saved about 5K because even if BMW made the TL with the same quality...it will still pretty much cost about 40K or something

mikekit

I love all the features on my new TL and the more "bang for the buck" but I wouldn't dare enter a corner at the same speed in my TL as I would in a BMW. While the TL beats the BMW in many areas it can't touch it in "on the edge" driving.

KilroyR1

My TL is fantastic. The driving dynamics do not approach my friends 330i. On similar roads, his 330i just stays planted, my TL is always in the air, I guess it's the weight of the car and the softish springs. It not a problem, I like the buttery ride.

Don

doogles

Kilroy, very interesting comment about always being 'in the air' at near-limit driving, I have the same problem. I was hoping that this was a function of the EL-42 tires, and that I could cure it with a trip to the tire store. Do you have the EL-42s' on? If so, I still have some hope...BTW, I can't comment on the driveability of the 330i (or any BMW product) because I couldn't get them to give me a test drive (I'm an obviously qualified buyer, 37 year-old professional, but they just weren't interested in making the effort...so Acura won. Actually, I had already decided on the TL prior to going into the Bimmer dealer, I just wanted to see the 330i to see what I was giving up. Not much, certainly not back seat space, but perhaps I missed out on a bit of 'elitist' attitude!).

takuyaah

did i not hear it right? they didn't give you a test drive a BMW? i don't know man...either they are really racist or something...even my little brother can get a test drive from the bimmer dealership...well..let me rephrase what he told me exactly "if i drive my lexus to the dealership..they beg me to test drive...but last time i brought mom's accord..they didn't want to talk to me"...how gay are those salesman?

doogles

You heard it right. White male, nicely dressed, driving a wrecked 10-year old Honda (which is why I needed a new car, somebody hit me). I told them that I was buying the Acura within a week unless I liked the Bimmer enough to change my mind. they said to stop back later, they didn't have the time to give a test drive (I was the only one in the store). But he did raise one eyebrow and say to stop back and drive it because "it is the ultimate driving machine". Whatever. I got the car I wanted, they lost a sale. Chalk one up for Acura. Maybe they thought that I didn't have any money, since I was driving a 10 year old Honda. But that is exactly the very reason that I have money to buy a new TL!

SmokeTL

I always go to the dealer with sweat clothes on, looking like i just got done working in the yard. I got more attention the first time I went to the BMW dealership than I got at TWO acura dealerships. If it wasn't the fact that I really wanted a tl, I would not have fancied a third dealership. Racist or not, they should see potential green.

KrgTL04

Wow, that's amazing. I went with my aunt about 2 years back to test drive an X5. We had no problem taking a tet drive, they handed over the keys, and didn't even go with us. My aunt was also considering the MDX at this time. She asked the BMW salesman why the X5 was $10k more than the MDX (both loaded V6s)...The salesman kinda bashed Acura, saying the MDX wasn't a "real" luxury car, and the X5 was more than twice the vehicle. That really turned her off. She then drove the MDX, and thought it felt just as nice as the X5...guess which one she bought.

claud

Lexus (owned 4) and Acura(on my 2nd) to a lesser extent are glad you bought their car. When you take a Lexus in for service, they give you another almost new Lexus to drive (if you are smart enough to call ahead a week or two). If your Acura will be in for four hours or more, they loan you another Acura. Both return clean cars to you after service. If your Lexus goes in for warranty work, they give you a tank of gas. They used to send you a check for $50 for your trouble.
What do BMW and Mercedes do for you? I have had three BMWs (in the 70s and 80s), and two Porsches (in the 70s). The Bimmers required extensive warranty work. The Porsches were very expensive to maintain. Neither dealer even washed the car. Have they changed?

SmokeTL

I never paid for any service, not even light bulbs or windshield wipers, nothing, and they washed my bmw. I just hated the crappy ford contour with park ave bmw on it for a loaner.

campIIIMAF

I own a BMW 3 Series Sport Package and a 04 TL. I got to tell ya . . . the TL is sweeeeeeeeeeet. and the BMW is equally sweeeeeeeeeeeet. The TL is more advanced technically, and the Bimmer is well . . . just a cool lookin car.

ensley696

I have a friend of mine who works for a BMW dealership. He told me a story about a guy who showed up to the dealership one day dressed in shorts and a rag type shirt. None of the salesman at the dealership wanted to help him except one, the new guy who started working there about a month before. The salesman knew he had nothing to loose, so he took a shot at it. The customer asked to see the 5 series. When the saleman showed the 5 or 7 series to the customer, the customer replied he would like to order 6 fully loaded cars. The dealership ended up ordering 6 cars and had them shipped to where this customer lived totaling some 1-2 million dollars. Then the customer gave the salesman a $10k tip and offered to let me stay at some resort he owned for a week vacation, all expenses paid. I think the saleman, with commission cleared some $40k dollars with his commission, pay, tip, and vacation. Cracks me up, just wish I could see the look of the other salesman.

digital_b

you cant convince these people of the fact that unless youre driving too fast on public roads wherein the bmw can save your irresponsible ass it is just paying for a badge. german cars engineered better than the japanese? well then why are the japanese brands less problematic and longer lasting? must be that asian magic ginseng kansei mystical stuff in the metal eh? you live in a dream world. is a lexus ls 430 going to be driven 125 mph all day in america or canada? NO and its not going to see 7 series or S classes in germany doing it either. is a bmw more fun in the 'twisties'? I doubt seriously that people buying lexus and infiniti [and one hopes acura when they get a car in the lexus class] arent stupid enough to drive at high speeds on curvy roads in public. reckless driving? yes its still a moving violation in the real world. bwm quality? roughly equivalent to 60s-80s era english car electronics. the german cars [I owned one] are selling to people who are seeking 'status' and dont care about the reality of owning a shoddily built car. when american cars [AMERICAN CARS!!!] are now more reliably built than european cars I think this contention of asian vs european build is not even worth attacking but you can if you want.

digital_b

you want to see arrogance? park your car and dress leisurely and walk the lot past the showroom window and look at the reaction of the a-holes in there. then when you have bought whatever you wanted elsewhere [its best if its the same brand as the particular dealer who will annoy you] make sure you park in front of the showroom and look at the reaction of their faces. its priceless.

2004MT6TL

Basically, if money wasn't a factor, the Germans kick ass!

digital_b

kick ass? in what way that matters? looks are subjective. tell us how the germans 'kick ass'. maybe some of their customers would like to read about it while they are waiting for their cars in the customer lounge. AGAIN.

mikekit

You don't have to speed or drive aggressively to appreciate the good handling of a car. When a car pulls out in front of you when you’re going 35 or a child rides his bike in front of you when you’re going 25 or an SUV decides to switch lanes without looking when you’re both going 70 makes you appreciate a good handing car.

When choosing a vehicle I think there are two philosophies for staying alive on the highway. You can buy an SUV and kill anyone that gets in your way or buy a car that handles and get out of the way.

The BMW and TL both handle well but I would rather be in a BMW when that car pulls out in front of me.

campIIIMAF

digital b, just because you got a BMW lemon doesn't mean I did. My car has performed flawlessly for 2.5 years running thus far and not a squeak or rattle either. and no, I don't live in AZ but in pot hole ridden MI.

further, I don't drive like an idiot (ie: 130mph) but I know that when I do need the power it's there.

American brands, from my own experience owning them . . . still crap!!!

tomorrow, try something else for breakfast other than nails. :thefinger

emendez

They say ignorance is bliss. You must be really happy with your TL. It's my second Acura (first was an Integra I bought new in 1987) and probably will be my last. With just 10K miles on the odometer my TL has more annoying rattles and squeaks than my 1990 325is did at 120K miles. Will it be a reliable car - more so than any of the German offerings? I have no doubt. Is it as enjoyable to drive as a BMW? Not even close. Does it handle as well as the BMW? Nope. That's how they kick ass.

campIIIMAF

everyone, go drink a beer and is the colorful language necessary?


my car is good
yours sucks
bs to you
bs to you back and the horse you rode in on.

jeeesh, someone has way too much time on their hands. What was the original subject on this thread anyway???

Ken7

I consider reliability part of the 'quality equation'. In that sense the Germans have fallen into the abyss. The reliability of Mercedes & BMWs are the absolute pits over the last few years. To me that is NOT quality.

Aegir

I had the same complaint. It's the damping. A-Spec fixed it.

DC5_Integra

BMW's are expensive to purchase with the same or similar features with the TL... yes they have somewhat different driven wheels. But what would happen 4 years later. How much would the parts cost to repair? I agree that the German cars have higher resale value but there German cars. German cars are a bit tad more expensive. The TL's trade in value wouldn't compare to the Germans. But i think the TL would be cheaper to maintain...

ulangca

IMO, in these day of age almost all cars handling have been improved. It is only when you drive aggressively you started to feel the difference. I'm not going to argue that the German RWD & 4WD kick butt.

I have test driven an AUDI A4-Quattro and a BMW 530 (not the new one). I driven those cars pretty aggressively (but, not that hard) and I enjoyed every minute of it. Compare them to my 04-TL, I think they are pretty comparable. I think it also depends on each driver. Each driver has their own take on how each car feels.

Before I got my car, I was thinking about getting a German car as well because I've never owned one. However, when I started considering the mileage I'm driving everyday and price, my best choice would be a Japanese car because of the reliability...

For pure driving performance, yes the Germans kick butt. But everything else, I may have to give it to the Japanese cars. Well, except for interiors. I give that to the AUDIs. The materials they used for their cars are quite impressive.

Just my .02

EZZ

Acura offers nothing in the over $50k range that is at all impressive. NSX? Please. Its a joke in its current condition for the price. Give me a Porsche GT3 for that much money and it would spank the NSX. Actually, there isn't anything in the over $50k range that is Japanese I would buy (well maybe a GTR). People can bash the German quality all they want but the fact is that reliability and price sensitivity become much less important when you can afford a $70k car. Most likely, you will be getting a new car if the warranty runs out anyway. BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche just aren't comparable to Acura.

Ken7

EZZ, I think LS430 owners might disagree with you!

EZZ

Maybe However I still wouldn't buy an LS430 if I could afford a $70k. Get me an M5 with all the trimmings

PetesTL

Acura's, as well as Infiniti's, are all about VALUE. They are not the fastest cars, or the best handling, or the most luxurious.....but they give you some qualities of those kinds of cars at a price most Americans can afford. For $35K or less, there is NOTHING out there right now that gives you such a great combination of a sporty ride, luxury and technology. For those who are disappointed that the TL didn't meet your expectations.......well, you over-estimated....sell your TL, save up more $$$, and go buy yourself a Bimmer to enrich your life.

jjay

the only german car i could afford was a new 98 vr6 jetta and that sumbitch was built in mexico!!! i had nothing but problems and sold or gave it to some kid for 3g i then went back to japanese were ive had nothing but unbelievalbe reliablity i bought a used 81 accord in 89 it had 100g and i added about 100g before i hit a deer next i bought a very used 80 prelude when i bought it the women swore it had at least 200g or more it was a auto i drove that car for about 3yrs put close to 80 or 100g then gave it to a friend, he drove it for a couple yrs and i think in 97 or 98 it needed brakes and he just left it...hah hah that car had well over 300g and i drove the shit out of the car... i used to love buying old p.o.s and driving them till i through them away...obviously not anymore ...later yall

automophile

Just look at the advances in the technology and style of the TL in the last few years. In another 5 years there will be very little differences between the German and Japanese cars, except that that Japanese cars will have fewer problems!

1SICKLEX

Lexus has multiple vehicles over 50k
LS 430
SC 430
LX 470
GX 470 loaded
GS 430 loaded

And they sell well and are well respected in their class. THough comparing them to a M5, well of couse the M5 will be the most sporting drive.

dshahs

This months motor trend magazine has bmw as #1 in sales to date with 47+ thousand units sold, lexus is #2 with 39+ and acura a very close 3rd with 38+ sold. From what i have read and heard i thought acura was leading in 2004 with the redesign but according to motor trend its #3. interesting.

Xpditor

That's your opinion. But the people that own them disagree with you. Lot's of reliability problems.

digital_b

motor trend publishes 3 months in advance. bmw and reliability go hand in shoe.

somi2002

I rather pay 38k for my A-spec TL and throw in a turbo or NOS. then go with an M3, but If BMW is yor thing i dont mean to burst your bubble. I just think that i can do a lot more with an ACURA then I can do with a bemmer. Espically with all the money i save buying a TL. I can do a lot more upgrades.

savageTL

I hope you don't think that A-spec TL could hustle around a road course faster than the M3. If you do you are in for a rude awakening. More reliable yes, quicker around the "ring" uhh no. If/when the TL is available AWD you would be closer but by then the E92 M with 400hp will bow and the argument is again moot. There is no argument that with the 10-20k saved on the TL A-spec you will be able to do a lot of mods (when they appear), the M3 is very expensive to mod since engine wise it is pretty maxed out in NA form and reliable FI is expensive. But again the 10k you have to play with under a base M3 or even the 20k you save over a loaded M3 is still gonna leave you in the dust on the track. Two different cars, two different mission statements.

Vandy

2004TL_believer

I think we all need to agree to disagree. But Jeez, why not just enjoy what you got and stop crying about it. IMO

Abyss Blue Pearl/Camel/Navigation/

takuyaah

ok..lets put it this way....no matter what you do to your TL....well..within 20K...you will never be faster than an M3...thats pretty much what it is....but damnit..none of us got the TL for racing...so...stfu about the comparison it to a GT car already.....