chiawei

Not true. How would you know R&T tested 530i and TL back to back? Heck, just because they are in the same issue does not mean it was tested in same day, same location, same track. Heck, you can't prove that C&D did not test the TL and 530i back to back either.

This is an oxy moron to draw such conclusion without even knowing what really happened at testing.

same can be said of R&T test. Since you can't prove they were done back to back with same driver, same surface, and same day only minutes apart. Therefore, based on your statement above, the TL number means nothing either.




When does E39 M5 equates to E60 M5? Please show me where did i say E60 M5 pulled 0.87 G. E39 M5 is a 1998 model. So 6 years difference is nothing to you. Just because E39 M5 arrived in US 2 years late, does not dispute the fact that for a 6 year old car and base strut pulled a 0.87G on skip pad, versus a much better design double wishbone in 04 TL. Your point is wrong, because you failed to understand that double wishbone by design should be able to have much better grip capability than struts. The fact is that a 6 year old design with a much cheaper and less complicated strut design matched a fresh design with better design principle behind it. This is not kudo to TL, but shows that double wish bone in common cars are not what is cracked up to be. For race car, yes, double wishbone has its benefit. But not really true to common cars. You simply failed to understand my statment of the E39 M5 design. The truth is that BMW used a much cheaper strut design on a 6 years older car and performed just as good if not better with a more complicated setup on a new car.

The problem that i have with your post is that you are coming up with so many different assumption that was not even true. The TL and 530i came in the same issue in road and track. But it does not prove that they were tested at same location and time. Hence this is an assumption you made.

Yes, CTS beats 530i on performance. However, it was done in three category that all were output related. 530i won pretty much everything else. CTS is a 3.6 VVT unit. With 30 more HP and nearly 40 lb-ft more torque. Yet, it barely edged out the 530i. CTS had 5 point margin based on that engine alone.

530i is getting an upgrade next year, hence the HP war will not be in TL nor CTS favor much longer. In addition, hard number although nice, does not really provide a truthful insight to what handling really is. E320 beats eveyone to pieces in that 6 cylinder comparison with best handling number. But no one would say that E320 is a great handling car. Heck, a camry has high slalom number than accord. But is camry a much better handling car than accord?

Xpditor

Hello? Apparently you aren't reading either my posts or the magazine. If you downloaded the data panels for each car, as recommended by me, you would see that the 530i and the TL were written up separately. It was not a direct comparo. However, it was the same issue by the same writers and the conditions were identical: 88F, 21% humidity, 150 ft elevation, and calm wind. Put all those facts together and I think it is safe to assume it was at the same track on the same day. With all the work to set up for these things, why would they do it twice for the same issue? Even if it were on different days, by remarkable coincidence, the environment was identical (as I said in a previous post).


Fact: Ferrari, Lamborghini, Corvette, and Acura TL have double wishbone independent suspension at all four corners. BMW does not. So which is the "common" car and which isn't? BMW still doesn't except on it's racing cars.

You mean YOU wouldn't. I would. If it is, it is. I am not going to let prejudice and preconceived notions blind me to reality.

And a Saturn has a better slalom number than a Corvette. A Mini-Cooper does pretty well also. Weight is a BIG factor in handling and lighter cars have an advantage.

I repeat: if it is, it is. Preconceived notions and Conventional Wisdom can sometimes make people close their eyes to reality.

I am a BMW owner. I'm not prejudiced against them. I love them. But if a base TL with HPT gets better objective numbers than an E60 530i with a Sport Package (which includes 18" wheels and HPT) under the SAME CONDITIONS by THE SAME TESTERS, that speaks for itself.

If you read the commentary by the testers, you can't help but come to the conclusion that these cars are nearly equals in the handling department. All except, that is, for the $22,000 difference in price.

I would respectfully differ with you when you say "that's not kudos for Acura." To me: it is.

I think we've exhausted this topic so let's just agree to disagree.

XP

digital_b

'we all wish we were driving bmws'? thats bullshit. if youre stupid enough to say that it means that you think everyone is as shallow as you are. if you DIRECTLY compare the 530 to the tl in an unbiased manner why the hell would you say that we all wish we were driving bmws? morons who chase brands because they think thats what they should be doing instead of owning what makes the most all around sense are comically ignorant. I love cars and if I were ultra rich I have no idea what I would drive. probably I would need a 10 car garage. but even then I would not be stupid enough to buy cars that others envy just because its what everyone would buy. I bought my tl because its better than a 530. better than a 545? not dynamically. thats inarguable. but a 530 or e320 for that matter? its no contest. and for the guy who said you can ride comfortably in an m3 uh, no you cant. its got a very harsh if not outright jarring ride.

digital_b

yeah and it was just recalled.

digital_b

and you remember that whenever bmw catches up to acura in consumer ratings for 1 and 3 year reliability.

digital_b

yeah the only 'fine lady' who would give a fuck is a hooker. but then you know that already dont you?

jwaters943

God, some of you people are pathetically insecure.

OH, THE TL IS THE BEST VEHICLE EVER CREATED. IT'S PERFECTION ON WHEELS. Heck, it's so AMAZING it's twice the car of a $65k BMW 545i at nearly half the price. No one EVER state an opinion otherwise! It might be contrary to what certain diluted TL owners think is true.

digital B:
So what if someone finds the BMW 5 Series more appealing?! It is a great car whether you want to "admit" it or not. Is it really necessary to flame someone for an opinion that might be different then yours? You need to get over yourself. It's not as if he said the TL is crap or came here to get flamed.

digital_b

[QUOTE=jwaters943]God, some of you people are pathetically insecure.

OH, THE TL IS THE BEST VEHICLE EVER CREATED. IT'S PERFECTION ON WHEELS. Heck, it's so AMAZING it's twice the car of a $65k BMW 545i at nearly half the price. No one EVER state an opinion otherwise! It might be contrary to what certain diluted TL owners think is true.

I dont care if someone thinks the 5 series is a better car as long as they can provide evidence of why it is which has yet to happen. the only car that is relevant to comparison to the tl in the bmw lineup is the 530i. now for those who are uninformed or just ignorant ACURA HAS STATED IN ACURA PUBLICATIONS AND IN INTERVIEWS THAT THE PREVIOUS GEN 530 IS THE TARGET CAR FOR THE CURRENT TL. what part of this statement do you not understand? your opinion of the direct competition for the tl is not relevant unless you choose not to value what the engineers of the current tl say. for you people anything anyone says is worthless. go away. the following FACTS are irrefutable at the present time:

the tl is faster and quicker than the NEW 530.
the tl is better equipped as STANDARD than the 530.
the tl is at least as well built as the new 530.
the tl is 22k less than a COMPARABLY equipped 530.

looks are subjective. so is 'feel'. for most people the argument for purchasing a tl vs a 530 is easily won by the tl. if you have to have a 'bimmer' then good for you. if you have to try and belittle tl owners by saying that the tl is a 'value' proposition winner only and that if equally priced the bmw would be owned by all of us youre just a fool. if youre stupid enough to think that a car THAT DOESNT EVEN COME WITH LEATHER AS STANDARD. is a better car outright than the tl simply by virtue of being 'teutonic' and 'more prestigious' , well god help you. for me I think the looks of the 5 series are terrific and beat the tl's but obviously thats a very minority opinion. the cheap interior however is far worse than the tl's.

1SICKLEX

[QUOTE=digital_b]The TL can't beat a damn 325 in comparisons (not even a 330 i.e Car and Driver) so there is some evidence.

savageTL

But, you can get it with a full leather interior...

Vandy

jwaters943

digital_b:
Listen, I think the TL is a GREAT car. I've never said anything to the contrary, but to attack me or other forum members because we believe the 5 Series is a better car overall is absurd. IT'S CALLED AN OPINION. Are you familiar w/ the concept? I'm aware that the engineers who worked on the new TL targeted the previous generation 530i in terms of ride and handling balance, but please tell me, have you read just 1 review that says they succeeded? I know I haven't seen one. That still doesn't mean the TL isn't a very good automobile.

On a side note, you seem very easily agitated. Maybe it's time to step away from the keyboard and take a walk.

TL_6SPD

BMW full leather, TL closest it gets is simulated leather with vinyl on the back of the seats and sides.

Xpditor

Are you reading just Car & Driver? Check Road & Track, a little more purist than C&D in my view.

Try April 04 which tests the Base TL with the 530i with a Sport Pakage (bigger wheels and tires, suspension tweaks). The TL bests the BMW in every catagory except 60-0 braking (they're close) and quietness at a steady 50. The TL does brake shorter in 80-0 tests even though the 530's brakes are larger.

SICK, you must admit that this an outstanding objective performance for a $35k FWD car vs. a $55k RWD handling icon.

As I have often said, as a BMW owner, the "feel" and other subjective criteria is another topic. Having both, I understand the loyalty of BMW owners. I love their feel.

The "feel" of the TL is different, of course- mostly because of weight distribution. But in everyday driving (where I seldom do four wheel drifting), the "feel" of the TL is superb. The understeer/oversteer characteristics are pretty similar to the BMW as is noted in the Road and Track testing.

XP

Xpditor

Yes. You can. Good point. And, I believe the premium package (required for leather- not "full" but leather trimmed) is only about $2400.

XP

Xpditor

Please see two tests in Road & Track, April 2004. Base TL with HPT and BMW530i with sport package. In all objective measurement except top speed (estimated 147 v. 150), the TL outdoes the BMW including skid pad and slalom.

The two tests are not head-to-head, but done in the same issue by the same testers and equipment under identical conditons at (apparently) the same track. You can download the data panels and compare the two cars in agonizing detail. Most interesting to me is that, if you download both data panels, put them on top of each other and hold up to the light, these two cars are so close that it's scary. It's like the TL is the BMW 5 series they would have made if Chris Bangle hadn't screwed it up (driving wheels notwithstanding).

Link to R&T Articles


XP

Xpditor

I would be interested in reviewing that info if you would provide a referrence. Your vague mention is not evidence per se.

When you drop names to support your view, it is helpful if you would be more specific so we can check it out.

As Bobby DiNero always told me: "Don't be a name-dropper." By the way, Bobby drives a TL and he says it competes favorably with his 530. (j/k)

XP

Ken7

Reliability is a key factor in my determinaton of quality. In that regard, many of the German cars have taken a huge hit in reliability. BMW and Mercedes are 2 for example. Check out the frequency of repair listings in Consumer Reports and you'll see that Mercedes and BMW have actually become "unreliable". This would have been unthinkable years ago, but it's a fact of life today. I will tell you a true story that I overheard at my local car wash a couple of months ago. Two guys are talking about their BMW 745s. One guy says how great BMW customer service is since they replaced his car after constant trips for transmission and electrical problems. The other guy concurs and tells how his brother-in-law had the same situation with his 7 series and got his replaced by BMW! I'm standing there thinking "Hey JERKS, they may have great customer service, but you both have cars that can't go around the block twice without service!!!!". So this brief encounter certainly jives with what I've been reading about reliability of the "status" brands. No thanks.