blader

Are you referring to the 03 or 04 model? If your referring to the 04 model .. have you ever driven one? I've never driven the 03 but I've heard that seems to be a problem .. to move it you have to beat it.

the 04 was revised quite a bit .. its practically a different car. The entire suspension was changed, bore and stroke was changed, cams were changed, displacement changed, you get more torque at a lower rpm, and the gear ratios are lower from 1st to 5th.

I've personally driven the 04 and I can assure you there is no trouble getting it out of its own way

gdubb

Thank You, thats why I dont like my RSX-S. Absolutley no torque in the car. You have to get to 6 grand to get some real ass moving out of it.

kumar6

ford sucks... nuff said...

i am sure the recall letters will be in the mail as soon as those stangs are out for a few months...

i guarantee there will be a recall... for some dumb shyt...

the acura tranny thing sucks.... but ford has more problems than a 95 year old woman on welfare..

SiGGy

No, the tranmission shows you how Honda handles what should have been a re-called years ago. And their band-aid of a fix for it. And then the 04 TL has the same fix?!??!? So they are still using the same tranny...

Then the common rattles between all 3 years of the CL, painjob, i can keep going...


Ford my not be the best made, but they have the balls to say when they made a mistake.

And I had less problems with my Ford(s) than I do with this Honda turd...

kumar6

did ford say it was the tires or their poor design that was sending the explorers flying off the roads and killing all those people...

i think they decided it was the tires right???

well in some ford plants the machines were cutting into the tires as well....

Ford doesnt admit shyt... just wait... you will see the recalls...

i will put hondas overall reputation up to fords any day...

most of the honda issues are coming from the US made cars anyway...

when the cars were built in Japan I dont remember seeing or hearing of such problems...

cars made in Japan are just built better....

i live in Michigan, i see Fords dead on the road all the time....

Joe5.0

I cant think of anything to add to this thread that will change anyone's mind. So fuck it.

F23A4

Could also be a function of the law of averages. I'm pretty certain there are many more Fords out there than Hondas or Nissans. Particularly in Michigan (read: Detroit)

Blader, you are right; the new 2.2L S2K is more "driveable" than the previous 2.0L models. But, you still have to wring it out to extract those stellar performance numbers advertised in car mags. Anything less will produce pretty weak performance. Ditto with gdubb's RSX-S.

That said both the S2K and RSX-S are geared more to enthusiasts than your average driver. Here in the NYC area, having the torque of an SE-R Spec V is more useful than the horsepower of the RSX-S or S2K; although we know the both Hondas are faster when pushed to the edge.

To each his own though. With a torque-happy Maxima in my garage to fall back on, I wouldnt mind having an S2K on the side.

Peace.

blader

Have you driven an 04? I haven't driven an 03, but my best friends step dad just bought one a few months ago. We were with him when he bought it, so we both got a chance to take it around town. I can assure you, when you wring it out, that VTEC will straight up throw you to the back of your seat. It certainly is a rocket.

Although I found no problems driving it conservatively. It had plenty of torque for its 2800lb body to move around. Even with less torque it still comes off the line harder than my CLS does, and with that RWD there is little to no spin .. just hooks and goes.

I agree you have to VTEC it to get the numbers in the mags, but don't you have to rev out every car to get mag numbers? I wouldn't call it "weak" by any means.

blader

*cough*FIRESTONE*cough*

If my memory serves me right .. 5 or so years went by with MANY reported tire blowouts and roll overs before ford admitted anything. And also if I can remember correctly, they took steps to try to cover it up in the beginning? Or deny that it was there problem?

kumar6

yup... ford is like enron... but without the downfall...yet...

scalbert

What a brilliant statement.

scalbert

Torque is what twists the axles and moves the car. HP is the rate at which torque is applied. You cannot make an all encompassing statement concerning torque and HP, there is quite a bit more to it.

You also have to factor in where the engine makes it power and relate this to gearing. You can have an engine which makes 1/2 the torque of another but can spin twice as fast and accelerate the exact same car at the same rate. You would just need 50% shorter gearing to do so.

You also have to factor in weight, does that engine have to move as much weight and can it use gearing to achieve the needed acceleration.

Look at the current F1 cars, they only make around 300 lb/ft (assumption) peak and less at most places. But they make it from 10,000 RPM to over 17,000 RPM. Making 270 lb/ft or torque in a race car doesn't sound like much. But make it at 18,000 RPM and you are generating 925 HP. Couple that with light weight and appropriate gearing and you have stellar acceleration.

FutureBagdA4

F23A4

Each car is different, though some have prevailing characteristics.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the performance margin between those stellar numbers and lower RPM driving is greater with the S2K than something like a 350Z 6MT, where you can turn in mid-upper 14s without having to wring it out. An S2K driven likewise will run mid 15s.

In essence, the Z can accelerate quickly (but not its quickest) without having to run @ higher RPMs (given it's torque) but if it does go into "VTEC" (so to speak), it's the icing on the cake. On the S2K, the 'cake & icing' ONLY come at VTEC.

But I'm by no means saying the S2K is weak, per se. Having driven the 01 S2K though, I can say that it has no gutts in non-VTEC (sub-7,000rpm) but makes up for it in VTEC.

Granted I'm probably being overly simplistic and have enough.

As for this thread, Ford has no need to develop an overly elaborate 298hp VQ35DE or 270hp J32A type V6 when they'll probably offer 2-3 V8 options for those who want performance.

Peace.

Nicky Pass

6 cylinders will never be enough for a Mustang. As for people saying Mustangs suck.....I'll race your CL, 350Z, G35 on any track. Yes even a road course....I get to the turns twice as fast, so I can idle around them! The beauty of a Mustang is low cost...bang for the buck. My Cobra came with 390hp from the factory...I added exhaust and I will be getting an intake soon.....I'll be at over 400hp....AT THE WHEELS. To do that to a Z you'd have to drop $20 grand. Not that I'm bashing any of the cars I mentioned (I'd still take a 350Z), but for low cost and easy mods....you can't beat a Mustang!

scalbert

Too bad you are not closer to Atlanta.

Minch00

This thread is worthless without VIDS!

scalbert

That is absolutely correct. The Mustang is great for its intentions.

F23A4

I cant argue with that one.

bigman

i fucking love the ammount of power my LS1 trans am puts down. The torque is neck snapping and the 300 ponies arent bad either. Wait till the stroker kit comes in. All hell will break losse. Stroked, cammed, heads and bolt ons. Im gonna need a fucking parachute to stop me.

blader

I understand what your saying. but your comparing apples to oranges. your comparing the torque of a 2.2L I4 to a V6 that already makes an incredible amount of torque for its size and amount of cylinders. The torque on a Z dwarfs the torque our v6's make as well, nevermind the S2K's motor .. that Z will accelerate at a faster rate than the CLS as well. that car has an extremely torquey V6.

As for the people with the american muscle .. they are great .. but one problem ..

(The views expressed here are relative to my geographical area and may not be true for yours)
Your sitting in your stang\bird\camaro .. you think your fast .. your sitting at a light in the middle lane .. oh well would you look at that, the same exact car you have, in the same color, with the same horsepower, just pulled up next to you. Oh look, another one just pulled up on the other side of you. American muscle cars are about as common as red and blue blinking lights are to a police car.

40% of all teenagers in the area drive some generation of a mustang. many of these are 03 Cobras. another 40% drive some generation of an F-body. The other 20% drive some type of an import, and only about 2% of them are anything more than altezza lights and a fart pipe.

"Oh you have a mustang? oh me too!"

Maybe thats why my CLS gets so many looks. Cause no one knows what the hell it is, nor have they seen any. This is why I will never own american muscle. at least not living around here.

F23A4

Pony cars have been a staple down by the shore (LBI, Seaside, etc,..) at least since I was 19 y/o back in 1987. Just the replace GTA/IROCZ/5.0 with WS6/SS/Cobra and we've fast forwarded to today.

In my area of NJ, the most common cars are the Lexus ES, BMW 3 series and Acura MDX. American muscle isnt that common around here. Then again, welcome to Somerset County.

blader

I work in LBI, and I cruise around seaside occasionally, and live in a town right smack in between LBI and seaside. So you can imagine the muscle car population I see .. if you looked at the parking lot my graduating year of highschool, you couldn't go a few spaces without spotting an Fbody or stang of some gen.

Nicky Pass

Imports cost so much money to mod. I remember with my CL-S, I spent $250 on the intake (maybe 5-10hp), $625 Comptech axle back(maybe 1-2hp)....then I was going to get the headers for $1000. I've spent $500 on a cat-back for the Cobra and Borla garuntees a minimum of a 25hp gain at the wheels. I ordered a CAI from UPR products ($139)....which should be good for another 20-25hp.

So for $640...the price of the Comptech mufflers, I got about 40hp.....now thats bang for the buck. I could spend $400 on a Diablo Sport Flach tuner and $150 on a pulley get another 60hp...but the warranty guys don't like these mods, but you can't beat those numbers!

F23A4

The expense of modding imports is A LOT when compared to domestics. Then again, the domestic performance aftermarket has A LOT more vendor/manufacturer competition than the import market.

On top of that your Cobra (assuming its an 03-04) is FI; FI cars (import and domestic) will respond better to mods (most instances) than NA cars.

blader

FI cars ALWAYS respond better to mods; put a comptech catback on an NA CL and your talking 5hp at best; but add one to Scalbert or Allmotor's car and your talking 20-25hp. Add a pulley to a S\C'ed CLS, and your talking the same HP ..

Domestic car's certainly have MUCH cheaper parts a set of chevy V8 big block headers cost my friend 200$ .. and they were a good brand name (Hooker), all stainless steel. yet comptech .. 1200. but domestic car modding has been around for a long time .. back in the days of the original vette, camaro, etc .. there are alot more companies around that make parts for domestics. if you dont believe me get a summit catalog .. look how small the import section is and how big the rest of the catalog (which is domestic) is. import modding hasnt been around as long so there isnt as much competition.

not to mention import motors are smaller but making more horsepower .. more finely tuned .. so the aftermarket parts must be more finely tuned .. this probably contributes to the price as well.

Also domestic cars are a little cheaper than most imports. The more expensive the car, the more expensive the aftermarket parts. hence BMW parts .. mercedes .. AMGs .. M series .. Kleeman, Renntech, AC Schnitzer, Lorinser, Eisenhaus ......

Nicky Pass

Here's my argument....My Cobra was the same price as my CL....almost to the dollar.....performance wise....it smokes it in every aspect EXCEPT for "functionality options". I do miss the steering wheel volume controls.....heated seats.....little things, but this car is a nice weather car, so all I really need is to have the top down with 400hp screamin down the road. I'd love to get another CL as a "daily car".....when funds permit!

blader

chicago gets alot of snow don't they? I'm sure the mustang won't be able to take you through winter.

Joe5.0

I wouldnt say they are making more hp, just more hp/L.

And its not just the domestic FI engines that respond well to mods. I've done 3 real performance mods to my mustang; ofroad hpipe (no cats), underdrive pulleys, advanced timing, and weld-in flowmaster mufflers. Thats maybe $500 in mods and I gained ~35rwhp/20rwtq. Another $1000 for headers & intake and I should be close to 250rwhp/300+rwtq.

Lets remember that hp is simply a function of tq. Most imports get their good hp/L numbers with smaller displacement engines making lots of rpm. If you only look at hp it may seem that they make similar power, but in the real world where races are not always started at 5k rpm, a larger displacement engine with more tq will more often than not have the advantage.

The cool thing about most large displacemtn domestics is that they are a blank slate for doing mods, and most respond very well. IMO there isnt a whole lot of enjoyment out of spending a shitload of $$ and only gaining a minimal amount of power. Props to the Honda engnieers for making the J32 very efficient, but that sort of puts a damper on the fun of modifying it.

F23A4

The Cobra is a purpose built car where as the CL is an entry level luxury sport coupe. The CL is refined in ways that any production Ford Mustang has yet to see. The Cobra is built to beat up on most other cars in a straightline shootouts (exc. maybe AMG SC Benzes and Z06s).

But the Cobra is a definite collector's item; the likes of which the CL will never be. (outside of import circles, that is.)

blader

thats what I meant, more hp per L. As for your mods .. yes I'm not saying domestic NA motors don't respond at all .. I'm just saying that if you do those SAME mods you just listed to a supercharged mustang, you would've gotten a whole hell of alot more hp\tq out of the car from the base supercharged hp\tq. anything with FI will respond better to mods than something that is NA .. when your multiplying the amount of air and fuel that your car is getting, you need to multiply the efficiency of other parts to work with it and make real power ... .. ..

very true, not all races are started at 5k .. but the reason alot of these import motors rev out so high is because of the quality they are built with. They rev out because they can. Type R motor, S2k motor, NSX, GTR, take your pick .. drop a Spoon sports crate motor in an S2k and you are good for 12,000 RPM (yes, 12,000, that is a fact). Import motors are made with great precision and the build quality is excellent .. domestic engines have come a LONG way but I dont think they are up to par with many high end foreign motors (by saying foreign I am including german cars too).

As far as putting a damper on modifying the J32, I wouldnt say headers were a damper on it. nor intake for that matter. the supercharger definately has potential as well. Certainly there aren't nearly as many replacement parts available for the J32 as the 5.0, but oh well .. I think there is still plenty of room to mod this car. You can move away from the engine and start getting into suspension as well, which I find more fun sometimes.

Joe5.0

I agree completely. However I think its not just domestic vs. import, I think its what Americans want. We Americans have never really had to worry about gas prices compared to the rest of the world. Thats why we have huge V8's (comparably) to the rest of the world.

I definitely agree that as a whole, the imports have a decided efficiency advantage over the domestics. However, that doesnt mean shit to most people. I would much rather have a 400hp LS2 than a 400hp S2000, just because I like having low end tq more than a high rpm screamer.

If the domestics really wanted to make high strung engines they could, and probably at lower cost than the imports. I think some of the imports are starting to see this and develop engines more inline with what most americans want. Look at the VQ35. They lowered the redline and increased the tq from the VQ30, and its faster and much more rewarding to drive.

And you cant neccesarily compare NSX's, GTR's etc to what most domestic manufacturers have out there right now. The reason is the price differential. A prime example that domestic companies can compete with the exotics is the Ford GT. For the money it cant be touched. The reason there arent many "super cars" from the domestiucs is because they arent very profitable cars. Why spend millions in a platform that will sell 3,000 units when you can put that into your pickup truck which sells 1,000,000 units/year. Its a miracle the Ford GT even exists, and I doubt there will be many domestic supercars in the near future.

In the end it all comes down to the almighty dollar. If every company could make a shitload of profits on cars that ran 11's off the showroom floor, handled like F1 cars, and still were reliable they would do it. The fact is that auto entusiasts are very rare, and most people couldnt care less what it does in the 1/4, as long as it gets to the mall safely.

I know thats getting off topic, but I dont feel that the domestic engineering is less capable than any other portion of the world, I think they are just getting out-managed and out-marketed by the imports.

F23A4