smartypants

Hi All :

I thought some of you might be interested in a real life story that kind of relates to our timing belt replacement debate going on in the 2nd gen thread. It might prove helpful for someone who ends up in this type of situation. It also may describe a disturbing trend in the way manufacturers administrate warranties.

My sister-in-law leases a 2007 Mazda CX-7 (Crossover) and was coming home from work one night and the engine suddenly stopped on the highway. The vehicle was towed to the dealer and when pulled apart, it was discovered that the timing chain had broken and, not surprisingly, imploded the engine. Now before everyone jumps on me to say "it was the timing belt not a timing chain", this Mazda does indeed have a timing chain. In fact there is a service bulletin describing heat related premature failure of the Variable Valve Timing (VVT) actuator which I believe is equivalent to our timing belt tensioner. More on this SB later......


Fortunately the vehicle was within the standard power-train warranty parameters and doubly fortunate, they had also purchased the Mazda extended warranty. Hurray ! Ok, so no issue with the cost off the repairs with all this warranty in place, right ? Well, er no. It seems that the dealership had taken the engine apart and found (wait for it !)......SLUDGE ! It seems that the lack of oil changes caused the problem and would she kindly bring in all the oil change receipts as the Mazda on-line service history only shows two oil changes in the past 2 3/4 years. Oh and by the way, if you can't prove oil changes were performed then there is no warranty because this is a clear case of lack of proper maintenance which is detailed in the warranty terms and conditions. How will you be paying the $8K in repairs..cash or credit card ?

Now, if she was the only one, this would just be another sad case. However, a simple search on the Internet (what did we do before the Internet ?) revealed dozens of cases of CX-7 engine failure due to timing chain breakage. What's really fascinating is the uniform Mazda/dealer response of sludge and lack of oil changes as the route cause with a subsequent warranty denial. I even read one response where the person had the dealer perform all the maintenance (including oil changes) and was still refused warranty ! With a little more searching, a Mazda service bulletin surfaced which describes the potential premature failure of an improperly heat treated VVT actuator which could cause catastrophic engine failure if not replaced.

My sister-in-law collected up all the responses and the service bulletin, went down to the dealership and laid it out on the service managers desk. He looked it over and said he would discuss it with Mazda and get back to her. After another few agonizing days, they called back with the news that it would indeed be covered.

This story has a lot of troubling aspects the biggest seems to be the refusal of warranty as an initial cost containment tactic. The fact that this is a known problem to Mazda and the "just play stupid until they find out" standard approach is clearly not a trait of a responsible Corporate citizen. Another aspect is if you don't have ALL work done at a dealer (and enriching the dealership owner), then warranties up for debate. The fact that they finally give in is vindication and an indication of the shaky legal ground they seem to want to operate on.

As a further aside to this story, the lease is up at the end of this month and salesman had the gaol to ask if they would be leasing another Mazda ? You can guess the response.....

smartypants.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

This is typically the case with all manufacturers, not just Mazda.

Crazy story though. Glad to hear that in the end your sister-in-law is getting the repairs done under warranty. As you said... thank God for the internet!!

CLtotheTL32

iTrader: (3)

Wow that's crazy! I've never heard of that happening to the CX-7's.

fsttyms1

Glads its been cleared up and being covered

Fireguy0826

Glad everything turned out alright. That is why whenever my car gets a oil change, brakes, etc, doesn't matter the paperwork goes right into a folder sitting in my glove box. I had my pads replaced recently and they started making some crazy noises. Long story short, manager said he had no record of them replacing my rear pads. I came to dealer, opened glove box and pulled out a reciept for the job. He fixed problem no charge.

CYANiDE

I've heard of some problems with the turbo's going bad and know a few personally trying to get rid of their CX-7s. Glad everything turned out alright for you though.

Costco

Would you be getting another Mazda.... that's great.

and yeah, plenty of dealers like this are out there, it's not just this one particular Mazda dealer your sis-in-law went to.

princelybug

iTrader: (16)

Glad it worked out. The wife was looking into getting one of these, too. Not anymore.

ineedmyfixofacura

iTrader: (2)

Glad to hear it worked out for you, the Internet is one hell of a powerful source lol. This is why I don't even bother with dealerships. I buy salvage lmao.

NSXNEXT

iTrader: (2)

Sounds like everything worked out fine.

So what's the story on the oil changes? Is she performing regular maintenance on the vehicle?

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Great that everything worked out man.

CL6

What is producing sludge in the engine (or was this made up by the dealer?)?

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

If I were you, report the incident to the NHSTA. They monitor this sorta thing.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/index.cfm
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

gr8ness97

iTrader: (5)

Great to hear that things worked out. I'm paranoid about maintenance and its good see why...

dallison

it doesn't matter if it's toyota mazda or porsche, jb is right

Dr. Colorado

^This is one of the reasons I get serviced at Porsche. I'm getting ass-raped for $500 annual servicing but considering what I paid to buy the C2S, it's a drop in the bucket.

Mowgli

So if I have a Mazda cx7 I don't need to get the oil changed?

d-townhakuzo

Doesn't Ford own Mazda in the U.S.? Because that would explain alot...

Costco

What are you getting at, exactly?

ineedmyfixofacura

iTrader: (2)

Ford=Pile of Trash.

Costco

I didn't expect another idiot to chime in. Usually your posts are "lol I can't ever see myself liking domestics but yeah that's nice....."

The 2.5L and 2.3T DISI in the CX-7 are exclusive to Mazda models.... and they may be related to the 4-cylinder Duratec but those don't have any common failures as far as I know.

smartypants

Hi All :

Thanks for all the supportive replies. I'll try and answer the questions posed in some the of the responses.

"So what's the story on the oil changes? Is she performing regular maintenance on the vehicle?"
Probably not, but who does ? Are we going to see auto manufactures holding customers hostage by "forced" maintenance in order to qualify for a warranty ?

"What is producing sludge in the engine (or was this made up by the dealer?)?"
In all the replies on the Mazda owners sites, I have not seen an analysis of the "sludge". With modern engine oil containing such additives like detergents and the advent of lead free gas, I had thought sludge was a thing of the past. I suspect that if pushed, the dealer would probably back off that position as they did when the other evidence was presented.

"If I were you, report the incident to the NHSTA. They monitor this sorta thing."
We have similar organizations in Canada. However, my experience with government agencies is their long on information collecting (read : you do all the work) and short on follow-up actions.

"Great to hear that things worked out. I'm paranoid about maintenance and its good see why..."
...and that's exactly what the car companies want you to be.....The sad thing here is one person actually did all the maintenance and still got denied.

"This is one of the reasons I get serviced at Porsche. I'm getting ass-raped for $500 annual servicing but considering what I paid to buy the C2S, it's a drop in the bucket."
I own a Porsche to and just had the 48,000 kilometer service check for $1600. I think other manufacturers are truly envious of the "lock" Porsche has on it's customers. Try and sell a used Porsche without all the stupid stamps in the maintenance book.

"So if I have a Mazda cx7 I don't need to get the oil changed?"
Not if you want to claim on any warranty's.

I think the message in all this is do your homework before you buy and discount any companies that take aggressive warranty positions.

smartypants

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Forgot this Internet thing is global.

NSXNEXT

iTrader: (2)

:shakehead Um yeah. So dealers are just supposed to warranty any issue with a car regardless of whether someone performs even the most basic of maintenance? What crazy world do you live in?


The Toyota V6 in my wife's Sienna has been known to have a sludge problem. I change the oil with synthetic every 7,500 to 10,000 miles and we've not seen the problem but it most certainly does exist.

1StGenCL

First off glad to hear it all worked out but how can you bitch about Mazda and then a few posts later say she probably hasn't had even simple services like oil changes done? There is a reason why you need to change the oil and why should Mazda eat $8k because you don't have regular $30 oil changes?

Yea, there seems to be a problem with the chain but it also seems like regular maintenance is a big part of the solution. Good thing you didn't put the dealer name in because you never know who is reading these posts and it could potentially make its way to your dealer.

smartypants

Hi 1StGenCL :

I fully support a persons right to change oil, replace fluids, change air filters and spark plugs. It keeps the economy going.

However, a modern engine should not break a timing chain at 46K miles due to not enough "oil changes". Coupled with the Mazda documented defective part, I think we can safely say what the real root cause is and it didn't have anything to do with a lack of maintenance. What is really at issue is the Mazda dealer obfuscation.

smartypants

1StGenCL

Agreed but of course Mazda (any car company for that matter, Lexus...) is going to do whatever they can to avoid paying. It def. shouldn't break tho

NSXNEXT

iTrader: (2)

You should really do your research before making a statement like that.

Look up "Saturn timing chain failures". It was a result of poor lubrication to the timing chain oiler. This is certainly something that could happen if there is a sludge issue.

If you read the Mazda boards, there are quite a few threads where owners are asked to provide oil change records.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

very much alive, kinda hard to prevent sludge if those additives get depleted (btw for a couple of years, v-6 toyotas are known to have sludge issues, especially with lack of oil changes, and iirc the 3rz-fe, don't feel like looking up at this time but it's there main one though that kinda went across the board of models, so there workhorse of the v-6's,

very true, but alot of shit can happen in that 46k that could potentially break it, but yeah with there documented proof of many owners having issues with it, it is not just an isolated case

and whatever the second highlighted term means, , it not so much the dealers, it is more mazda trying to get their asses out of paying for it (aka like our trannies), hell the dealers probably would love the work (even though they make less with warranty work then customer pay) in this slow economy

lawlainie

Can you forward a copy of the service report from Mazda setting out the timing chain/belt failure?

I have an 07 CX7 and days before I was to end my lease the car died while driving 45 mph. I had roughly 30,000 miles and all oil changes done. Our mechanic said it was the timing chain. I returned the car to the dealer and they say the timing chain break damaged the engine. My warranty ran out before the lease terminated but I am left with the power train warranty. As of now unless I prove oil changes were done they will not provide coverage. I am about to start the fight with Mazda on this and from the attitude at the dealer I am not hopeful.

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

gatrhumpy

iTrader: (1)

Extended warranties are generally worthless for cars. As proven by the story, you have a much betetr statistical chance of doing your own scheduled maintenance and keeping track of it than getting a warranty and hoping for the best. This is an increasing trend in the extended warranty business.

Playing devil's advocate, the warranty companies are in the business of making money, and they make money by making it hard for customers to get repairs covered by putting the burden of proof on the customer. Shady way of doing business, but it is a business.

Bottom line, keep every receipt you ever had with your car. That way, no one will complain or reject a warranty repair claim.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

, but very true though, and let alone being VERY specific at times (in the contract) of what they WILL and WILL NOT cover, let alone the original failure has to be because of the part they cover and not another part (not always but would not surprise me though)

then keep every reciept, i do every thing on my car (auto tech btw) and i still keep all my reciepts for parts and such, maybe not the most organized though , but all the car reciepts are seperate though, so i know where to go looking for them (they are kinda in a time line though, newest is in the back geneally)

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

get the documentation from him then, not just word of mouth (also if you don't got oil change reciepts/invoices from him, should not be too much of a hassle to reprint them for you though)

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

never get an extended warranty is my rule.