thevikas87

iTrader: (2)

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/vid...801/+thedriver


I'm currently in the market for an E46 M3 as a daily. I'd like to hear some opinions/facts from you guys.

Discuss

SamDoe1

How good are you at DIY maintenance and how much desire do you have to buy $11/qt oil?

Having driven the ST once and the M a bunch of times, I'd buy the focus in a heartbeat over the E46M. It's simply a great example of trickle down technology and the Focus comes with a warranty.

Also, it's a Ford which means that the stealer won't charge you $150/hr for a labor rate.

thevikas87

iTrader: (2)

Sorry, allow me to elaborate.

I currently daily a E36 M3, its got 250k miles on it. I've done a few services on my own to spruce it up and keep it running. I'm okay with DIY maintenance, I can do the regular brake service, spark plug, changing of fluids etc, but I'm no pro mechanic by any means. Although the car runs great and I still enjoy it, the odometer makes me nervous. I don't want to end up with a car that needs a whole new engine. I don't know many people on the forums with near 300k on their E36 M3's.

I planned on buying the E46 with an aftermarket warranty. Overall, the purpose is just to have a "fun" daily that I'm not too worried about.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Nah man.

Get the 86.

Between the two, I would go with the ST.

SamDoe1

Other than the badge, the Focus is better in every way, shape, and form. Doing those things yourself is great but the fact is that the parts will be more, the labor will be more, the stuff will be wearing out/worn out, and the car will have miles on it that you didn't put on yourself.

The M is a fantastic car in every way except for keeping it maintained. Ford, you can drive the poop out of it and it's still under factory warranty. Not to mention that it has far more features and tech that a decade old car doesn't have.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

FWD vs. RWD.

The only reason why I would go with the ST over E46 M3 is the maintenance part.

thevikas87

iTrader: (2)

+1 This is a very big reason. I left FWD cars in my high school/college days.

myron

iTrader: (4)

I'd get an M3, but that is my dream car so...

charliemike

That is like saying the only reason you wouldn't date a specific hot chick is because she'd murder you in your sleep. But other than that ...

v6cord2k5

iTrader: (1)

If you're happy with the car, why not swap in a S54 or LS1 and keep it?

MarbleGT

Ford is just too easy. It's cheap to maintain, cheap to buy NEW, cheap to mod, cheap to run, etc etc etc.

The M3 is a fantastic car, don't get me wrong, but it's so nice to just walk out to your car, start it, and go. Zero issues, zero surprises, etc.

The ST is the hot hatch to have right now. It's an amazing car that can come very well equipped with current technology.

ttribe

My opinions (and only my opinions; not stating these things as gospel) -

Refinement (fit & finish): M3>ST
Appearance: M3>ST
Comfort: M3>ST
Cost of Ownership: ST>M3 (where ">" refers to "better than", not "more $'s than"
Fun Factor: Push. Despite being FWD, the ST is known for being a hoot to drive. An E46 M3 is just plain fun to drive. It will come down to personal preference.
Cachet: M3>ST
Current Technology: ST>M3

Now, at first glance, it may appear I'm heavily in the M3 camp, but it really comes down to how much you personally weight these categories. For me, the E46 would likely win, but that's because I place more emphasis on RWD performance rather than tech induced oversteer on a FWD car, for example. Plus, I've always really liked the E46 M3; but hold out for a really solid one. I'd recommend looking at the ads at the back of Roundel each month to increase the likelihood of finding a really well cared-for E46 M3.

It looks, to me, like OP has already had (or currently has) several BMWs. He knows what he'd be getting into maintenance-wise. If that's not an impediment, I'd say M3.

Costco

From your sig it looks like you've owned used BMWs, so you know what to expect. And you mentioned an aftermarket warranty... not too familiar with them, but just make sure it has comprehensive coverage.

I've driven M3s of different generations and I love them. But on principle I can't stomach the prospect of the maintenance costs. I've dealt with several European repair shops in the past several years, and personally know some technicians... most of them do not own German cars, and recommend against doing so (out of warranty cars, anyway)

I cross-shopped a very similar car to the Focus ST before getting my BRZ... the Fiesta ST. Despite how much I love RWD dynamics, I cannot bring myself to get an E46 M3. As much as I love the E46, the FoST wins easily for me.

charliemike

As far as fit and finish goes, I guess it depends on the year. A 2006 M3 vs Focus ST? Probably. A 2001? Not anymore unless it's a garage queen

ttribe

Perhaps. That's why I say hold out for a really good one. I've encountered a few really nice examples of E46 M3s lately at club events. They look like new.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

By the way, I think it was back in like 2006. My close friend let me drive his E46 M3 6MT down this mountain.



I can still remember the majority of the experience. The car drove MARVELOUSLY. I think it was like my first time feeling like.. "driving" a car. The car did exactly what I wanted it to do without hesitation. It was so direct and raw.

Ahhhhh it was so good.

Just wanted to share my experience with it.

YeuEmMaiMai

buy what you like but the forums are where you are going to find out about the quirks about each car.

Ford has REALLY stepped up their game and I would not hesitate to own one. my fathers 2K10 Taurus is a very nice car with no issues

thevikas87

iTrader: (2)

Haha I think at this point I'm just plain ready to move on from the E36. Although that sounds like it would be a lot of fun.

thevikas87

iTrader: (2)

Your run down makes sense. I've been looking for quite some time. To be completely honest, I won't be spending 25k as suggested in the comparison video. Probably more like 17-18k with room on top for a warranty.

Correct, I am now on my third BMW. Maintenance/service does not scare me because I have been fortunate enough to have aftermarket warranties or have been resourceful enough to find decent Indy shops to do good work at a reasonable price.

thevikas87

iTrader: (2)

Yup, I'm pretty familiar with the common failures of BMWs unfortunately...however as you can see, that doesn't stop me from wanting another. I'm trying to give another brand a chance and want to try to keep an open mind.

FWIW, you should give the E46 M3 another look, there are still several out there in decent condition to be had at good prices.

charliemike

I don't know what your timeframe and budget is but if you're looking new in the $25k range and FWD isn't going to ruin your party, the Mk VII GTI is supposed to be fantastic.

VR1

Vikas?

Looks like I found my twin on this forum



I'd take the E46 M3. Like the ST, but I love the M3.

thevikas87

iTrader: (2)

No particular time frame. Just brought this up when I saw the video comparison. Thought it was interesting.

I never ventured into the VW world...will have to check it out.

thevikas87

iTrader: (2)

LOL yes, thats my name.

charliemike

That video really hits home why Chris Harris is so good at what he does. That video was 12 minutes of some dude complaining about a guy wearing his hat backwards and grainy footage of two cars driving around.

How the hell are we supposed to derive anything from that video? FFS it could have been done so much better.

No wonder that guy's websites fail all the time.

Crazy Bimmer

Had this same issue but every damn E46 M3 I looked at had issues or was beat to hell. Have to pay a premium to get a good one.

Thats for 6speeds btw, SMG was all over the place but wouldnt touch that thing.

SuperTrooper169

iTrader: (2)

I was thinking the same thing. I could do a better video review than that douche.

SamDoe1

Yes, if you're going to get an E46M it had better not be the SMG otherwise you'll be getting bent over without lube often.

I'd love to get an E46M, love love love the car, love the chassis (I had one), love the looks, love the drive, and love the simplicity of it but I just can't bring myself to put that much time and money into a 10+ year old car (you aren't getting a 2005/2006 in good condition for anywhere close to $17-$18k) when I can have just as much fun in a Ford that's under warranty and will be cheaper to buy, insure, run, and maintain in the long run. If you want to buy one, enjoy it for a summer and then sell it then go for it but I wouldn't keep one any longer than a couple months.

I'd also love to own a Land Rover but can't bring myself to buy one for the same reasons.

CAgine

Lol how is the Ford the better car in every aspect?

Driving wise, I feel the ST is not even in the same class as the M.

oonowindoo

ST might be fun to drive, but it is not the same as E46 M3... they should not even be in the same sentence as far as driving experience.

But if this is going to be your only car, then i would not trust a 10 years old BMW, especially an M3. But if this is going to be your 2nd car (assuming your 1st one is the reliable one) then by all means, go for it.

Check out a used s2000 or a BRZ/FRS if you want some real fun with reliability.

Saintor

Old is old.

The 25K$ on a M3 is not the same as the 25K$ on a ST. The BMW will cost you much more keeping on the road "as a daily". * A LOT of hassles *.

To drive everyday I would get a 2011 328i Sport E92 well before an old M3.

If it has to be between these two, get the Ford.

thedriver

Chris Harris is awesome! He also has a full camera crew and a lot of funding. As I mentioned in various places this was posted, it was our first attempt. We appreciate the views and the discussion. Look forward to seeing what you put out.

thedriver

Hey I'm a fellow Super Troopers fan, no need for the name calling.

Thanks for watching at least, we appreciate it.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

thevikas87

iTrader: (2)

LOL

charliemike

The name calling wasn't necessary.

But let me give some constructive criticism ...

The way the video was shot isn't a problem. Including the comments about the backwards hat guy isn't either ... In fact if the rest of the commentary was stronger I think it makes a valid point about the ST.

So about the commentary ... As an owner of an ST, I think there are a few things that need to be mentioned. The torque steer at half throttle isn't that bad. At full gas, it's definitely there ... And if you have it flashed, it's crazy. What I would have liked to have seen, as a viewer, is you talking about the acceleration dynamics coming out of curves and getting back on the gas. You mentioned the torque steer a little bit but I think it would have been a good opportunity to talk about the differences in FWD vs RWD. Especially on wet roads or if they ever want to autoX.

The other thing is chassis balance ... As you're showing the two cars through the sweepers, why not mention the poise of each car? Talk about how the individual chassis tuning sets up each car for that point just after the apex of the curve? Can you stay on the gas in the Ford like the BMW? Do you have to wait an extra tick or two before you can get back on the gas in the Ford? That kind of thing would be relevant to someone that doesn't own either car.

The other thing that I think you really could have had an impact discussing was the ownership experience of two cars that cost $25K when one is brand new and the other is seven or eight years old. Not maintenance but what does the cabin feel like? Does the M3 still feel modern? Do the materials in an eight year old BMW exceed what's in the Ford? Would someone be willing to overlook the squeaks and rattles in the BMW because it's such a good car?

I think it was a very interesting premise worth discussing. I wish you guys the best of luck going forward but I do think that you need to spend some more time storyboarding out the video and the commentary before you shoot it.

Good luck!

thedriver

No worries. Thanks, that was very good feedback. I tried to get into some descriptive bits about the materials, but we definitely could have spent more time there. As you all stated, its already pretty long, we had two full days of filming. Very tough trying to figure what parts to include. Storyboarding will help a lot on future films, its something we have discussed as well.

Quite a bit of the discussion about car dynamics and ownership realities will be in part two where we take both cars autocrossing and then make a final recommendation. It's already been filmed, just need to finish up some editing. Look forward to hearing your thoughts on that film as well.

Cheers,
Will

charliemike

That's going to be an interesting video. The track makes a difference but I would not be surprised if the ST is actually quicker than the E46.

thevikas87

iTrader: (2)

Sold the M3 yesterday....

charliemike

Well??!