J36 turbo 6th gen Accord coupe
02-04-2010, 08:48 PM
#242
I hope ur plans for dyno time go well. Beware the dyno gremlins though. Seems like everytime you go to the dyno these dumb problems that never happen seem to surface. Ugh! Lol
once your tq surpasses your tires and suspensions ability to put it to the ground it becomes a little pointless. You can sit there and say yeah I got 500 hp, but if it just makes you spin tires and break stuff, it's just braggin rights.
once your tq surpasses your tires and suspensions ability to put it to the ground it becomes a little pointless. You can sit there and say yeah I got 500 hp, but if it just makes you spin tires and break stuff, it's just braggin rights.
02-04-2010, 08:52 PM
#243
I hope ur plans for dyno time go well. Beware the dyno gremlins though. Seems like everytime you go to the dyno these dumb problems that never happen seem to surface. Ugh! Lol
once your tq surpasses your tires and suspensions ability to put it to the ground it becomes a little pointless. You can sit there and say yeah I got 500 hp, but if it just makes you spin tires and break stuff, it's just braggin rights.
once your tq surpasses your tires and suspensions ability to put it to the ground it becomes a little pointless. You can sit there and say yeah I got 500 hp, but if it just makes you spin tires and break stuff, it's just braggin rights.
, also did they happen to also break both in the same place
02-04-2010, 09:07 PM
#245
Team Owner
Haha, thanks bud. To answer your dyno question, it hasn't happened yet. I live in southern Oregon, and the only tuner I'll allow to come within ten feet of my car is located in southern Washington (English Racing). Until I can break away for that long-haul, I'm getting the afr/timing safe and acceptable for DD via wideband and e-manage. I plan to get some dyno time no longer than one month from now.
I love the plenums. Those things look intimidating and I suppose help out with air distribution when you're pushing over twice the air as you did stock. Besides hood clearance issues, would those fit the J32 in the 3rd gen?
02-04-2010, 09:07 PM
#246
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Last edited by FiftyFive; 02-04-2010 at 09:12 PM.
02-04-2010, 09:10 PM
#247
Team Owner
02-04-2010, 09:14 PM
#248
I think you forgot to add th red color to your text. Lol
yeah full throttle at 4grand spinning tires in 3rd = I'm not going fast enough. Lol
I've noticed the leaner on the street as well, but it's usually all this damn FL heat that lends into heatsoak on the dyno. I hope to retune as well now that it's cold..er to see if there is less difference. Sorry to get offtopic
yeah full throttle at 4grand spinning tires in 3rd = I'm not going fast enough. Lol
I've noticed the leaner on the street as well, but it's usually all this damn FL heat that lends into heatsoak on the dyno. I hope to retune as well now that it's cold..er to see if there is less difference. Sorry to get offtopic
02-04-2010, 09:18 PM
#249
IMO, wideband tuning on the street is much better than dyno tuning. Everything I've ever run has gone leaner once it's put under load on the street. I was just trying to get a rough idea of the power you're making. I would REALLY like to see 1/4 times even if it doesn't hook just to see the mph you pull.
I love the plenums. Those things look intimidating and I suppose help out with air distribution when you're pushing over twice the air as you did stock. Besides hood clearance issues, would those fit the J32 in the 3rd gen?
I love the plenums. Those things look intimidating and I suppose help out with air distribution when you're pushing over twice the air as you did stock. Besides hood clearance issues, would those fit the J32 in the 3rd gen?
and those plenums fit under the stock hood on the 2g TL/CL, so should be absolutlely no problem for the 3g (more the issue would be the drive-by-wire system then anything)
02-04-2010, 11:07 PM
#252
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
should, but completely the wrong manifold design for the 3g, so entire manifold would have to be swapped first
and those plenums fit under the stock hood on the 2g TL/CL, so should be absolutlely no problem for the 3g (more the issue would be the drive-by-wire system then anything)
and those plenums fit under the stock hood on the 2g TL/CL, so should be absolutlely no problem for the 3g (more the issue would be the drive-by-wire system then anything)
Aside from that, you then have to deal with the IMRC activation; the 2nd gen has a seperate motor, while the 3rd gen has the motor built into the top plate. The EGR port is smaller on the 2nd gen manifold as well.
02-04-2010, 11:17 PM
#253
Safety Car
With regards to lack of traction, there is a lot of truth in what friesm2000 is saying with his comment - "higher gear (so you lose some of the torque from the gearing)".
I have done this too with my IROC Camaro when I was quarter-mile racing with 125-shot. It had a B&M built T400 trans with manual valve body. This means, that I had complete control of the auto trans. On street tires and using 125-shot, I would launch and run the whole quarter mile in 3rd gear. The trans would ride against the 3500 RPM stall converter (closer to 4000 rpm with nitrous) for most of the way down the quarter. Just one constant pull.
The point is that the street tires were gripping at a constant level. A constant pull was being delivered.
Top Fuel dragsters (henceforth called TFD) have done this for many, many years too. The TFD have no transmission. They have no 1st gear, 2nd gear, etc. They have direct coupling after the clutch. Why do TFD have no trans? Because they produce so much torque, even with no torque multiplication from a transmission, that the huge racing slicks can’t put it to the track. The TFD will leave one solid set of black marks all the way down the quarter mile. The on-board computer in the TFD modulates the clutch lock-up to keep the tires at the traction threshold.
In summary, there is no real benefit for a street car to launch in a higher gear. The sad fact is that there is just so much traction available that you have to work with. You can either feather the throttle to modulate the power delivery, use a higher gear to receive less torque multiplication, or (my favorite) let VSA traction control do it.
I have done this too with my IROC Camaro when I was quarter-mile racing with 125-shot. It had a B&M built T400 trans with manual valve body. This means, that I had complete control of the auto trans. On street tires and using 125-shot, I would launch and run the whole quarter mile in 3rd gear. The trans would ride against the 3500 RPM stall converter (closer to 4000 rpm with nitrous) for most of the way down the quarter. Just one constant pull.
The point is that the street tires were gripping at a constant level. A constant pull was being delivered.
Top Fuel dragsters (henceforth called TFD) have done this for many, many years too. The TFD have no transmission. They have no 1st gear, 2nd gear, etc. They have direct coupling after the clutch. Why do TFD have no trans? Because they produce so much torque, even with no torque multiplication from a transmission, that the huge racing slicks can’t put it to the track. The TFD will leave one solid set of black marks all the way down the quarter mile. The on-board computer in the TFD modulates the clutch lock-up to keep the tires at the traction threshold.
In summary, there is no real benefit for a street car to launch in a higher gear. The sad fact is that there is just so much traction available that you have to work with. You can either feather the throttle to modulate the power delivery, use a higher gear to receive less torque multiplication, or (my favorite) let VSA traction control do it.
02-05-2010, 12:24 AM
#254
Team Owner
With regards to lack of traction, there is a lot of truth in what friesm2000 is saying with his comment - "higher gear (so you lose some of the torque from the gearing)".
I have done this too with my IROC Camaro when I was quarter-mile racing with 125-shot. It had a B&M built T400 trans with manual valve body. This means, that I had complete control of the auto trans. On street tires and using 125-shot, I would launch and run the whole quarter mile in 3rd gear. The trans would ride against the 3500 RPM stall converter (closer to 4000 rpm with nitrous) for most of the way down the quarter. Just one constant pull.
The point is that the street tires were gripping at a constant level. A constant pull was being delivered.
Top Fuel dragsters (henceforth called TFD) have done this for many, many years too. The TFD have no transmission. They have no 1st gear, 2nd gear, etc. They have direct coupling after the clutch. Why do TFD have no trans? Because they produce so much torque, even with no torque multiplication from a transmission, that the huge racing slicks can’t put it to the track. The TFD will leave one solid set of black marks all the way down the quarter mile. The on-board computer in the TFD modulates the clutch lock-up to keep the tires at the traction threshold.
In summary, there is no real benefit for a street car to launch in a higher gear. The sad fact is that there is just so much traction available that you have to work with. You can either feather the throttle to modulate the power delivery, use a higher gear to receive less torque multiplication, or (my favorite) let VSA traction control do it.
I have done this too with my IROC Camaro when I was quarter-mile racing with 125-shot. It had a B&M built T400 trans with manual valve body. This means, that I had complete control of the auto trans. On street tires and using 125-shot, I would launch and run the whole quarter mile in 3rd gear. The trans would ride against the 3500 RPM stall converter (closer to 4000 rpm with nitrous) for most of the way down the quarter. Just one constant pull.
The point is that the street tires were gripping at a constant level. A constant pull was being delivered.
Top Fuel dragsters (henceforth called TFD) have done this for many, many years too. The TFD have no transmission. They have no 1st gear, 2nd gear, etc. They have direct coupling after the clutch. Why do TFD have no trans? Because they produce so much torque, even with no torque multiplication from a transmission, that the huge racing slicks can’t put it to the track. The TFD will leave one solid set of black marks all the way down the quarter mile. The on-board computer in the TFD modulates the clutch lock-up to keep the tires at the traction threshold.
In summary, there is no real benefit for a street car to launch in a higher gear. The sad fact is that there is just so much traction available that you have to work with. You can either feather the throttle to modulate the power delivery, use a higher gear to receive less torque multiplication, or (my favorite) let VSA traction control do it.
But there comes a point when you can no longer hook at any legal speed that it's pointless to make more power unless you're road racing on a very large track. But for street use on a FWD car on street tires, 450whp is very hard to put down. I have a built engine sitting on the stand ready to go into the GN and I expect it to put down a minimum of 800rwhp. But at the current 602rwhp and 3,000lbs (100hp more and 300lbs less than the 10.60 run) there's just no point other than bragging rights. I can leave two rubber strips going down the freeway on drag radials. The built engine is sitting ready to go should the "stock" engine fail but I have no plans to install it. At this level of the game it becomes a matter of who can hook. I would love to see an 11 second turbo TL and no doubt a couple members of this board have the power to get there but it's time to concentrate on traction. People can say all they want about numbers and bragging rights but the guy who crosses the line first isn't going to care that the one he beat may have put down a few more hp.
I think I really went off topic this time.
02-05-2010, 01:44 AM
#255
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
Ive seen plenty of lesser powered vehicles put a whoopin' on high hp dyno queens. Its all about putting the power down.
02-05-2010, 06:30 AM
#256
Don't forget we're talking abot a v6 Accord. Longer gearing options are not that plentiful. Plus were talking about a DD. Going faster or gearing is not going to help you when your merging onto a highway full of traffic and loose grip because you give it a little too much throttle on a nice bending merge. Can you say immidiate understeer...it's not a fun situation.
Moneypit....as a fellow Accord owner it's nice to see some big hp numbers coming from one.
Moneypit....as a fellow Accord owner it's nice to see some big hp numbers coming from one.
02-05-2010, 07:49 AM
#257
Safety Car
IHC, thanks for the input and I do agree.
My previous post was mostly rambling with no real point trying to be made. Just an academic discussion meant to provoke deeper thought with the reader.
Your [IHC's] reply is *very much* on-topic. I think this sort of discussion will help many of the readers. This is the type of discussion that our forum needs at this point in time with the turbo becoming a reality. I hope to have other's see that there is much more involved to going quick (versus going fast) than just big hp numbers. I hinted at this before in previous post that drag racing is very complicated. True that little driver skill is required compared to road racing. The reason that drag racing is difficult and complicated is involving the designing, building, tuning, and preparation of the *entire* drag car. All of the components of the vehicle must work in harmony with the other components as a overall system. And, the overall system must be designed with a predetermined strategy to attack the physics involved with going quick from a dead stop (aka, drag racing).
On to other related topics.... An example of this holistic approach to designing a quick street car is involving the brakes too. I am concerned for our turbo pioneers with regards to their brakes. We all agree that the TL brakes are "adequate". But, those same brakes on a 400 whp TL is another thing all together.
I have mention in recent post that I hit abs often. I was surprised that no one confronted me with "why in the hell are you always engaging your abs?" My car has the equivalent of just 334 whp. I take many opportunities to "enjoy" those ponies. It does not take me very long to double and triple the speed of the surrounding traffic. As such, it is my responsibility for the safety of those around me to "scrub off" that speed before getting too close to them. Plus, I do enjoy the feel of my brakes as much (or perhaps more so) as that of the acceleration.
Now, here is my concern. My brakes are great because the TL diet allowed the brakes to improve along with the hp. But for the turbo guys with much more hp than me, but with their same oem brakes..... I am concerned. Just to illustrate the overall point of having a balanced, holistic system.
My previous post was mostly rambling with no real point trying to be made. Just an academic discussion meant to provoke deeper thought with the reader.
Your [IHC's] reply is *very much* on-topic. I think this sort of discussion will help many of the readers. This is the type of discussion that our forum needs at this point in time with the turbo becoming a reality. I hope to have other's see that there is much more involved to going quick (versus going fast) than just big hp numbers. I hinted at this before in previous post that drag racing is very complicated. True that little driver skill is required compared to road racing. The reason that drag racing is difficult and complicated is involving the designing, building, tuning, and preparation of the *entire* drag car. All of the components of the vehicle must work in harmony with the other components as a overall system. And, the overall system must be designed with a predetermined strategy to attack the physics involved with going quick from a dead stop (aka, drag racing).
On to other related topics.... An example of this holistic approach to designing a quick street car is involving the brakes too. I am concerned for our turbo pioneers with regards to their brakes. We all agree that the TL brakes are "adequate". But, those same brakes on a 400 whp TL is another thing all together.
I have mention in recent post that I hit abs often. I was surprised that no one confronted me with "why in the hell are you always engaging your abs?" My car has the equivalent of just 334 whp. I take many opportunities to "enjoy" those ponies. It does not take me very long to double and triple the speed of the surrounding traffic. As such, it is my responsibility for the safety of those around me to "scrub off" that speed before getting too close to them. Plus, I do enjoy the feel of my brakes as much (or perhaps more so) as that of the acceleration.
Now, here is my concern. My brakes are great because the TL diet allowed the brakes to improve along with the hp. But for the turbo guys with much more hp than me, but with their same oem brakes..... I am concerned. Just to illustrate the overall point of having a balanced, holistic system.
02-05-2010, 12:19 PM
#258
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
Another
02-05-2010, 02:33 PM
#259
I agree...
But there comes a point when you can no longer hook at any legal speed that it's pointless to make more power unless you're road racing on a very large track. But for street use on a FWD car on street tires, 450whp is very hard to put down. I have a built engine sitting on the stand ready to go into the GN and I expect it to put down a minimum of 800rwhp. But at the current 602rwhp and 3,000lbs (100hp more and 300lbs less than the 10.60 run) there's just no point other than bragging rights. I can leave two rubber strips going down the freeway on drag radials. The built engine is sitting ready to go should the "stock" engine fail but I have no plans to install it. At this level of the game it becomes a matter of who can hook. I would love to see an 11 second turbo TL and no doubt a couple members of this board have the power to get there but it's time to concentrate on traction. People can say all they want about numbers and bragging rights but the guy who crosses the line first isn't going to care that the one he beat may have put down a few more hp.
I think I really went off topic this time.
But there comes a point when you can no longer hook at any legal speed that it's pointless to make more power unless you're road racing on a very large track. But for street use on a FWD car on street tires, 450whp is very hard to put down. I have a built engine sitting on the stand ready to go into the GN and I expect it to put down a minimum of 800rwhp. But at the current 602rwhp and 3,000lbs (100hp more and 300lbs less than the 10.60 run) there's just no point other than bragging rights. I can leave two rubber strips going down the freeway on drag radials. The built engine is sitting ready to go should the "stock" engine fail but I have no plans to install it. At this level of the game it becomes a matter of who can hook. I would love to see an 11 second turbo TL and no doubt a couple members of this board have the power to get there but it's time to concentrate on traction. People can say all they want about numbers and bragging rights but the guy who crosses the line first isn't going to care that the one he beat may have put down a few more hp.
I think I really went off topic this time.
, let alone you probably should not be accelerating at that rate of speed if you are trying to be a "legal" driver 
02-05-2010, 03:33 PM
#260
Safety Car
^ We were discussing traction issues as it relates to drag racing. True, for top speed a person can just feed in the throttle.
But for drag racing, IHC is right. I think IHC meant to say that if the car is still able to completely break traction, even at 60 mph (aka, legal speeds), that any additional hp is fruitless and wasted. I agree. If the car can not go wot without breaking loose at 60 mph, then that "system" has issues.... namely too much power for the available traction. For drag racing, you could had ran the same ET, or probably a better ET, if the car has *less* hp for that given amount of available traction.
But for drag racing, IHC is right. I think IHC meant to say that if the car is still able to completely break traction, even at 60 mph (aka, legal speeds), that any additional hp is fruitless and wasted. I agree. If the car can not go wot without breaking loose at 60 mph, then that "system" has issues.... namely too much power for the available traction. For drag racing, you could had ran the same ET, or probably a better ET, if the car has *less* hp for that given amount of available traction.
02-05-2010, 03:38 PM
#261
Team Owner
Top end racing is dangerous and will get you quickly arrested. IMO it's for people that can't launch the car properly or don't know how to make the car hook. I'm used to this argument. I don't know how many times a stock Civic has challenged me, I put 20 carlengths on them by the speedlimit and they come flying by me still accelerating 10 seconds after I let off the throttle. It's an unfortunate mentality of some people.
02-05-2010, 03:42 PM
#262
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
@ the ricer fly-by
02-05-2010, 04:29 PM
#264
^ We were discussing traction issues as it relates to drag racing. True, for top speed a person can just feed in the throttle.
But for drag racing, IHC is right. I think IHC meant to say that if the car is still able to completely break traction, even at 60 mph (aka, legal speeds), that any additional hp is fruitless and wasted. I agree. If the car can not go wot without breaking loose at 60 mph, then that "system" has issues.... namely too much power for the available traction. For drag racing, you could had ran the same ET, or probably a better ET, if the car has *less* hp for that given amount of available traction.
But for drag racing, IHC is right. I think IHC meant to say that if the car is still able to completely break traction, even at 60 mph (aka, legal speeds), that any additional hp is fruitless and wasted. I agree. If the car can not go wot without breaking loose at 60 mph, then that "system" has issues.... namely too much power for the available traction. For drag racing, you could had ran the same ET, or probably a better ET, if the car has *less* hp for that given amount of available traction.
02-05-2010, 04:34 PM
#265
also not to be an ass or anything, there are boost controllers that can change the amount of boost depending on what gear you are in, so low to little boost for first gear and such, then once you get going and shift, it cranks it up some
btw even at the track, many cars can do well above 60 mph in the 1/4 mile (but yes a good speed to pick for being at "legal" speeds)
btw even at the track, many cars can do well above 60 mph in the 1/4 mile (but yes a good speed to pick for being at "legal" speeds)
02-05-2010, 04:55 PM
#266
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
I got one better.. here in TX we have F350 flybys.. not the ferrari.. 
02-05-2010, 05:06 PM
#267
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
"I make 450whp above 100mph" just doesn't sound right.
03-05-2010, 05:04 PM
#269
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Wilwoods & front lip... 
03-05-2010, 05:26 PM
#272
GO RANGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
iTrader: (6)
So very nice!
03-05-2010, 06:23 PM
#275
Instructor
Join Date: Feb 2010
Age: 43
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
11.7 front, 10.2 rear
i have the dynalite kit in the front *4piston* that will clear the stock 16's *thus the small size* and the rears to match. the further from the center of the wheel the more they affect power loss regardless of weight. ive seen 14'' stoptech kits reduce and rsx's whp by 8 even thou the kit itself was lighter than stock
i have the dynalite kit in the front *4piston* that will clear the stock 16's *thus the small size* and the rears to match. the further from the center of the wheel the more they affect power loss regardless of weight. ive seen 14'' stoptech kits reduce and rsx's whp by 8 even thou the kit itself was lighter than stock
03-14-2010, 09:41 PM
#277
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
I love it man 
Any idea when the front lip is going to get painted?
Any idea when the front lip is going to get painted?
03-15-2010, 01:14 AM
#278
Whats up with RDX owners?
iTrader: (9)
Looks good 
