I have a great question for you all to opine on...
09-05-2013, 01:10 AM
#1
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I have a great question for you all to opine on...
Just about 2yrs ago LED headlight technology was being introduced on select Audi's. Now at least LED DRL's are scattered across a lot of models from economy cars and luxury brands. Now this is where my question come in guys...
Why has it taken so long to switch over to HID technology in all other cars. It's such a cheap technology now. When i purchased my 1st HID kit of EBAY in 03 they were a little over $3xx.xx/ shipped. Now reliable kits off EBAY are $50-80.00. I was born in 79'. My dad was upgrading his beater Ford F-100 (YES not F-150) from incandescent to halogen and what a difference. But halogen has been around at least more than 40yrs at least. Most switched to halogen back then for the same reason we swapped to HID's. For added visibility safety. So it makes for a added selling point i'd think and HID's rarely burn out for the life of ownership these days.
And so I digress... I'd like to read your comments on this subject.
Why has it taken so long to switch over to HID technology in all other cars. It's such a cheap technology now. When i purchased my 1st HID kit of EBAY in 03 they were a little over $3xx.xx/ shipped. Now reliable kits off EBAY are $50-80.00. I was born in 79'. My dad was upgrading his beater Ford F-100 (YES not F-150) from incandescent to halogen and what a difference. But halogen has been around at least more than 40yrs at least. Most switched to halogen back then for the same reason we swapped to HID's. For added visibility safety. So it makes for a added selling point i'd think and HID's rarely burn out for the life of ownership these days.
And so I digress... I'd like to read your comments on this subject.
09-05-2013, 01:44 AM
#2
My guess is that while HID technology is more affordable now, it is still not cheap enough for all manufacturers to incorporate HID's to into all their vehicles.
The demand for HID's from the general public might not be high enough to force manufacturers to make the jump.
The demand for HID's from the general public might not be high enough to force manufacturers to make the jump.
09-05-2013, 09:22 AM
#3
In addition to that, the ebay packages have shittier overall lifetimes for the bulbs/ballasts. the ballasts/bulbs in a stock acura last years. i've had ebay ones where the ballast sucked, caused the bulb to flicker upon start up. my friend has had some where it kept changing color. he bought 8000k i think but after maybe half a year it was turning purple. the quality bulbs/ballasts still cost a good amount. iirc, the stock TSX bulbs are around 150 each or a pair.
09-05-2013, 10:16 AM
#4
Why has it taken so long to switch over to HID technology in all other cars.
09-05-2013, 01:02 PM
#6
Senior Moderator
99% of the time something doesn't make sense, cost is the reason.
From the dealer, yes, $150/bulb. Extremely marked up and ridiculous considering you can get the same bulbs for 1/3 the price and top of the line bulbs for 1/2.
From the dealer, yes, $150/bulb. Extremely marked up and ridiculous considering you can get the same bulbs for 1/3 the price and top of the line bulbs for 1/2.
09-05-2013, 02:47 PM
#7
05/5AT/Navi/ABP/Quartz
There are brightness standards and aiming regulations to be considered. In the past, laws prevented some upgrades. Now it takes time and money to get everything changed. They have to give us a reason to upgrade and look at better models IMHO.
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09-05-2013, 02:56 PM
#8
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At least some manufacturers are giving buyers the available hardware by putting in good projector assemblies that can be upgraded with a simple bulb/ballast buy.
09-05-2013, 03:00 PM
#9
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I've often wondered this, as well as why things like power windows, locks, etc. aren't standard on every car. These items don't add that much to the cost. HIDs, PW, PL, tilt in reverse mirrors, and many other useful things were standard on many cars ten years ago, there's no excuse for why they're options on any car now. Hell, navigation and back up cameras have been around so long, I think they should be standard, as well.
09-05-2013, 03:53 PM
#10
Senior Moderator
More reasons to fail and cause a warranty claim that requires shop time to debug and fix? 
I have had a hand in the sale of automotive grade audio chips. Automotive grade is useful for systems like SRS, ABS, etc., but I didn't understand the need for an automotive grade audio chip. The reason? A warranty claim for a broken radio can cost Bose $300 to replace a $1.50 chip.
I have had a hand in the sale of automotive grade audio chips. Automotive grade is useful for systems like SRS, ABS, etc., but I didn't understand the need for an automotive grade audio chip. The reason? A warranty claim for a broken radio can cost Bose $300 to replace a $1.50 chip.
09-06-2013, 01:22 AM
#11
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Sure the chip is $1.50, but what are the R&D costs? Marketing? Profit margin?
Remember, there is an enormous amount of testing required by the manufacturer, the part supplier and numerous government requirements (from multiple governments with different standards)
Easier said than done.
Remember, there is an enormous amount of testing required by the manufacturer, the part supplier and numerous government requirements (from multiple governments with different standards)
Easier said than done.
09-06-2013, 01:29 AM
#12
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Just about 2yrs ago LED headlight technology was being introduced on select Audi's. Now at least LED DRL's are scattered across a lot of models from economy cars and luxury brands. Now this is where my question come in guys...
Why has it taken so long to switch over to HID technology in all other cars. It's such a cheap technology now. When i purchased my 1st HID kit of EBAY in 03 they were a little over $3xx.xx/ shipped. Now reliable kits off EBAY are $50-80.00. I was born in 79'. My dad was upgrading his beater Ford F-100 (YES not F-150) from incandescent to halogen and what a difference. But halogen has been around at least more than 40yrs at least. Most switched to halogen back then for the same reason we swapped to HID's. For added visibility safety. So it makes for a added selling point i'd think and HID's rarely burn out for the life of ownership these days.
And so I digress... I'd like to read your comments on this subject.
Why has it taken so long to switch over to HID technology in all other cars. It's such a cheap technology now. When i purchased my 1st HID kit of EBAY in 03 they were a little over $3xx.xx/ shipped. Now reliable kits off EBAY are $50-80.00. I was born in 79'. My dad was upgrading his beater Ford F-100 (YES not F-150) from incandescent to halogen and what a difference. But halogen has been around at least more than 40yrs at least. Most switched to halogen back then for the same reason we swapped to HID's. For added visibility safety. So it makes for a added selling point i'd think and HID's rarely burn out for the life of ownership these days.
And so I digress... I'd like to read your comments on this subject.
While you mention cheap kits on the internet for xenons including the ballast etc @ $50 to $80, remember than halogens are much cheaper in comparison. And I'm guessing that even in large batches, the xenons cost a bit more than those cheaper kits. Manufacturers are businesses first and foremost. If they can get away with not having a feature, then they will.
For example, an economy car that doesnt have xenons and has halogens instead. Take a ballpark figure of $40 in savings. I'm guessing more, but lets go with that.
Take $40 and multiply by 100,000. Thats probably low for a car, but lets say that just US sales in one year. You have $4 million in savings on one thing that many consumers (in that market bracket) didn't notice or care about.
In the end, that's why.
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oo7spy (09-06-2013)
09-06-2013, 10:34 AM
#13
Senior Moderator
I don't think we are on the same page for this post. Your last post was completely in line with the point I was trying to make. Even if a part is cheap to install into the system, the system can be expensive to warranty. Thus, an automotive manufacturer has to include the warranty costs into the other additional costs of adding a part. It's not as simple as a $20 HID bulb - $5 halogen bulb = $15 cost increase (obviously ignoring ballasts, ignitors, and usually projectors). If the system fails, that $15 cost can turn into a $100 shop expense to fix. In business, reducing cost is everything, and a good manufacturer isn't going accept extra costs that do not boost a market share.
I understand you understand this, I am just elaborating on how my example fits into the overall theme.
09-06-2013, 02:48 PM
#16
bought a HID kit and installed it and it now provides enough light to see in completely dark situations.
whereas before, I was straining my eyes to see.
I understand the halogen projectors were engineered for halogen bulbs, but fuck that, it was just to dim.
there is no doubt that the projectors are not meant for HID's as it throws light everywhere and is not as concentrated as a real HID projector.
it doesnt bother oncoming cars tho, as I have not been flashed like I do in the TL
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AMGala (09-06-2013)
09-06-2013, 08:17 PM
#17
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You could use a better halogen.
Not all halogen projectors are crap. Ford uses some top of the line projectors and puts shitty $5 halogens in them.
Fusion fog light projectors with upgraded:
With HID:
Not all halogen projectors are crap. Ford uses some top of the line projectors and puts shitty $5 halogens in them.
Fusion fog light projectors with upgraded:
With HID:
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justnspace (09-06-2013)
09-06-2013, 08:30 PM
#18
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Aman (09-10-2013)
09-06-2013, 08:35 PM
#19
Senior Moderator
Why is that, exactly? Quality HID bulbs don't get as hot as halogens if that was your answer.
09-06-2013, 08:42 PM
#20
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09-06-2013, 08:48 PM
#21
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Quoted from Hid planet to make things easier
First off, it's illegal fyi before you make the plunge. It's a direct violation of DOT law to put an HID kit in a housing designed for halogen bulbs except for off-road use or somethin to that effect...
In any case, now that the pseudo-disclaimer is out of the way,
HID kits have too much variation in how their bulbs are constructed to give a definitive answer - it'll differ from manufacturer to manufacturer. There's a very large chance that you'll need to get rid of squirrel spotters since they'll be much brighter than intended (duh! HID are much brighter than halogen)... but beyond that, the cutoff characteristics have always been similar enough that the light should stay below the cutoff line. And don't expect it to compare to real HID projectors..
In any case, now that the pseudo-disclaimer is out of the way,
HID kits have too much variation in how their bulbs are constructed to give a definitive answer - it'll differ from manufacturer to manufacturer. There's a very large chance that you'll need to get rid of squirrel spotters since they'll be much brighter than intended (duh! HID are much brighter than halogen)... but beyond that, the cutoff characteristics have always been similar enough that the light should stay below the cutoff line. And don't expect it to compare to real HID projectors..
09-06-2013, 09:44 PM
#22
Senior Moderator
I didn't say they were the absolute best. I said they were high quality. Who is making better projectors today than Stanley or Koito?
Justin's experience shows that not all halogen projectors are built the same, but there are stock halogen projectors out there that are better than stock HID projectors. Take a look at the picture above. There is nothing wrong with using HIDs in a Fusion fog projector. I would like to read the federal DOT law that prohibits such use. Here is what Texas says.
The advice quoted sounds like a good rule of thumb, but it surely isn't 100% convincing as required by law without quoted sources and statements like "somethin like that". Some of it is even opinion.
Here is what I found froma Texas Peace Officer trying to clear up the laws on another forum.
Texas Law does not explicitly restrict HID use in any setup, and what I've read says the federal laws only restrict manufactures from selling them as DOT approved systems.
Justin's experience shows that not all halogen projectors are built the same, but there are stock halogen projectors out there that are better than stock HID projectors. Take a look at the picture above. There is nothing wrong with using HIDs in a Fusion fog projector. I would like to read the federal DOT law that prohibits such use. Here is what Texas says.
Sec. 547.333. MULTIPLE-BEAM LIGHTING EQUIPMENT REQUIRED. (a) Unless provided otherwise, a headlamp, auxiliary driving lamp, auxiliary passing lamp, or combination of those lamps mounted on a motor vehicle, other than a motorcycle or motor-driven cycle:
(1) shall be arranged so that the operator can select at will between distributions of light projected at different elevations; and
(2) may be arranged so that the operator can select the distribution automatically.
(b) A lamp identified by Subsection (a) shall produce:
(1) an uppermost distribution of light or composite beam that is aimed and emits light sufficient to reveal a person or vehicle at a distance of at least 450 feet ahead during all conditions of loading; and
(2) a lowermost distribution of light or composite beam that:
(A) is aimed and emits light sufficient to reveal a person or vehicle at a distance of at least 150 feet ahead; and
(B) is aimed so that no part of the high-intensity portion of the beam on a vehicle that is operated on a straight, level road under any condition of loading projects into the eyes of an approaching vehicle operator.
(c) A person who operates a vehicle on a roadway or shoulder shall select a distribution of light or composite beam that is aimed and emits light sufficient to reveal a person or vehicle at a safe distance ahead of the vehicle, except that:
(1) an operator approaching an oncoming vehicle within 500 feet shall select:
(A) the lowermost distribution of light or composite beam, regardless of road contour or condition of loading; or
(B) a distribution aimed so that no part of the high-intensity portion of the lamp projects into the eyes of an approaching vehicle operator;
(1) shall be arranged so that the operator can select at will between distributions of light projected at different elevations; and
(2) may be arranged so that the operator can select the distribution automatically.
(b) A lamp identified by Subsection (a) shall produce:
(1) an uppermost distribution of light or composite beam that is aimed and emits light sufficient to reveal a person or vehicle at a distance of at least 450 feet ahead during all conditions of loading; and
(2) a lowermost distribution of light or composite beam that:
(A) is aimed and emits light sufficient to reveal a person or vehicle at a distance of at least 150 feet ahead; and
(B) is aimed so that no part of the high-intensity portion of the beam on a vehicle that is operated on a straight, level road under any condition of loading projects into the eyes of an approaching vehicle operator.
(c) A person who operates a vehicle on a roadway or shoulder shall select a distribution of light or composite beam that is aimed and emits light sufficient to reveal a person or vehicle at a safe distance ahead of the vehicle, except that:
(1) an operator approaching an oncoming vehicle within 500 feet shall select:
(A) the lowermost distribution of light or composite beam, regardless of road contour or condition of loading; or
(B) a distribution aimed so that no part of the high-intensity portion of the lamp projects into the eyes of an approaching vehicle operator;
Sec. 547.305. RESTRICTIONS ON USE OF LIGHTS. (a) A motor vehicle lamp or illuminating device, other than a headlamp, spotlamp, auxiliary lamp, turn signal lamp, or emergency vehicle, tow truck, or school bus warning lamp, that projects a beam with an intensity brighter than 300 candlepower shall be directed so that no part of the high-intensity portion of the beam strikes the roadway at a distance of more than 75 feet from the vehicle.
Here is what I found froma Texas Peace Officer trying to clear up the laws on another forum.
HID Kits are illegal to SELL as DOT approved for steet use due to FEDERAL regualtion and none of the kits that use HID bulbs to replace standard halogen bulbs in a halogen housing should have a DOT seal or marking. DOT does not approve or disapprove headlight components. It is strictly up to the manufacturer to certify that they meet the federal DOT specs, which none of them do since the HID light source is a different position, size, and shape than the halogen filament the housing was designed for. The fact it plugs into a standard housing for H1 or H3 halogen bulbs is not relevant.
Last edited by oo7spy; 09-06-2013 at 09:57 PM.
09-09-2013, 12:51 AM
#23
Senior Moderator
The simple answer to your question is cost for most manufacturers. You have about 90 dollars for the bulbs and ballasts and such in bulk per car, 100 dollars for a set of projectors vs halogen reflective housings and 5-10 dollars in newer clips and thicker wires for higher draw of HID systems. In short about 200 dollars per car.
Over 10,000 cars that's $2,000,000 in lost revenue. Increasing the price of the car isn't worth loosing sales and having it standard. Adding it as an option really doesn't make sense because that will require 2 sets of headlamps (halogen and HID) to be made further increasing R&D cost. And lastly:
For most folks, halogen bulbs are completely fine. Yes it's outdated and dim and energy inefficient, but it works and is cheap. If they can save the 200 dollars then they will save it. Why go though all the trouble of lost profits to cater to folks who can easily do it for 80 dollars online?
Instead they are waiting for better, cheaper technology to help phase out halogens. Yes LED's have hit the market but halogens will still be standard on most non-luxury and/or non-sports cars.
Over 10,000 cars that's $2,000,000 in lost revenue. Increasing the price of the car isn't worth loosing sales and having it standard. Adding it as an option really doesn't make sense because that will require 2 sets of headlamps (halogen and HID) to be made further increasing R&D cost. And lastly:
For most folks, halogen bulbs are completely fine. Yes it's outdated and dim and energy inefficient, but it works and is cheap. If they can save the 200 dollars then they will save it. Why go though all the trouble of lost profits to cater to folks who can easily do it for 80 dollars online?
Instead they are waiting for better, cheaper technology to help phase out halogens. Yes LED's have hit the market but halogens will still be standard on most non-luxury and/or non-sports cars.
09-09-2013, 01:48 AM
#24
RE: regulations, also most trucks/SUVs still can't have HID's simply due to the height of where their headlights are. That's why you see weird headlight location like that of the Infiniti QXwhatever, it's kind of tucked lower than the hood line. It's arguably part of the design language, but no doubt to give HID and also meet regulations. Otherwise, on taller vehicles, the projector bulbs are usually at the lower portion of their headlight designs, or they simply aren't HIDs despite the price of the vehicle.
I think LEDs like those from Audi that dim when they sense oncoming vehicles/objects will be the standard on trucks/SUVs to go around those requirements
I think LEDs like those from Audi that dim when they sense oncoming vehicles/objects will be the standard on trucks/SUVs to go around those requirements
09-09-2013, 01:52 AM
#25
And that leads me to another question - the new Corolla has LED headlights standard. But it's one single bulb, whereas like the Acura jewel lights and the Audi and pretty much every LED headlights have multiple LED bulbs. I'm really interested to see the comparison between one vs many - do cars like the Corolla get a much brighter LED because they're housing only one of them and the other makers make lower lumen LEDs so as to not blind oncoming traffic?
09-09-2013, 07:53 PM
#26
Drifting
I agree with the others that cost and complexity are some issues with HIDs. I think another reason might also be that LEDs are really improving in performance. HIDs are not as compelling as they were 10 years ago.
09-09-2013, 08:38 PM
#27
Considered the straight bulb swap, but the HiD fogs were simply better and brighter.
09-09-2013, 08:58 PM
#28
09-10-2013, 08:29 PM
#29
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Simply put:
(Sorry for the big pic)
Left is a typical halogen bulb. Right is a typical HID/xenon bulb. The shape of the bulb affects the shape of the light output, obviously halogen and HIDs give off light in different ways. Therefore they need different shaped housings.
This is why HIDs shouldn't be in halogen reflectors or projectors (IMO). The headlight just won't be giving off light the way it was designed to.
(Sorry for the big pic)
Left is a typical halogen bulb. Right is a typical HID/xenon bulb. The shape of the bulb affects the shape of the light output, obviously halogen and HIDs give off light in different ways. Therefore they need different shaped housings.
This is why HIDs shouldn't be in halogen reflectors or projectors (IMO). The headlight just won't be giving off light the way it was designed to.
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