junktionfet

It's coming up on the one year anniversary with my '07 TL-S 6MT, and I'm entertaining the idea of going back to a 4 banger. Fuel economy is really driving this endeavor, but I want to stay with something fun to drive.

Before the TL-S, I owned an '06 TSX 6MT. Considering that my TL-S is a consistent mid-5 second 0-60 car, the fuel economy isn't too bad I suppose... but it still isn't great. I miss the economical nature of my former TSX, even though the best 0-60 I could squeeze out of her was 6.71.

In addition to considering a lightly used '06-'08 TSX, I checked out the '09 TSX and was disappointed. I've also thought about a well equipped Civic Si sedan, and today I drove one.

After throwing that J35 around for almost a year, that little K20 feels really anemic. It was practically brand new, so I didn't beat the hell out of it... I'm sure once it's broken in and you rev it to 8000+ RPM, it's probably not that bad. My first impression though was that it needs more twist down low. I remember the K24 in my '06 TSX being a nice balance of midrange pull and high end power. This K20 had a pretty linear powerband up high, with a noticeable change in sound at about 6000 RPM or so. It sounded nice.

I thought the Si felt really nice on the road--the ride was decent and the car seemed reasonably responsive. The steering seemed a little light to me, but I got used to it. I still think the steering in my TSX was superior. In fact, I think the weight and feel of the steering in my TL-S was better.

I found the car very easy to drive. The DBW felt much more agreeable than my TSX, was similar to my TL-S. The clutch and shifter were very easy to use, and after only 3 or 4 blocks I was pulling off shifts that were more seamless than an automatic.

I never got to toss it around a lot but it felt like it had some promise in the fun-to-drive department. I took a few quick turns and the car never felt like it was upset by that. It certainly felt lighter and more reactive/nimble than the big TL-S, as expected.

Overall it seems like a nice car, but I think now that I'll pass. The steering just doesn't cut it for me, and the engine is too much of an unknown. I enjoy a high revving engine of course, but I'm not sure how versatile this one will be in the real world.

princelybug

iTrader: (16)

The TL Type-S does EVERYTHING better than the Civic Si, including handling. Fuel economy is the ONLY negative. TL Type-S > Civic Si coupe/sedan.

I have the same car as you do, and it would be hard for me to downgrade to a Civic, albeit an Si.

carguyrob

I have read a number of articles recently about the concept of trading in a lower mileage vehicle for something more fuel efficient. Mind you, the articles are generally talking about full size SUV's being traded for a hybrid. The articles clearly state by the time you factor in the loss of value on your trade, taxes, fees, etc...you never really make up for the expenses in fuel savings.

That being said, it would be even less likely if you trade in a 22mpg TL-S for a 26-28mpg TSX or Civic Si. You are looking at about 100 gallons of gas difference over a year (assuming 12K miles a year). That is a $400 savings. How many years would you have to keep the next car for this to pay off?

If you like your TL-S...its power, steering feel, features, etc. Keep it and know that you could be getting a lot worse mileage in some other vehicles (pretty much any SUV or truck).

sho_nuff1997

iTrader: (2)

iTimmy

^^^ As gas prices continue to rise it may soon be a wise financial move to get a more fuel efficient vehicle.

To the OP, I am not a fan of the 09 TSX, but had a 04 and loved it, while not a fast car by any means it offered fair performance for the level of economy it offered. I wanted a little more out of it and with a few basic bolt ons(header, intake/K&N filter) it became quicker and as an added bonus got better fuel economy as well, if I planned on keeping it I would have had the hondata reflash, and had even better performance and fuel economy. Perhaps you should try to find a killer deal on 06 TSX(latest model you can get a reflash for) and add a few basic bolt on's(also include a larger rear sway bar) and you'll have close to what your looking for.

I like the civic for what it is, but I don't think it would be the right move. Then again if you drive a lot and feel gas prices are going to skyrocket you'll be well served with a vehicle that offers, what you feel is, good fuel economy.

charliemike

Gas would have to be $8/gal for a 5mpg differential to be economically justifiable unless you made an even trade.

phile

A few weeks ago in NJ people were lining up at gas stations on a Friday in anticipation of the gas increase for the week-end. Honestly, I paid $5 more than usual to fill up the day after. It's not as bad as people say.

Sarlacc

In the small term...youre right its not.

But nearly 3 years ago when I bought my truck it cost around 40-45 to fill up...now its 60ish.

To tack on to what everyone else is saying... I have a piggy of a truck...just the nature of it. But I owe nothing on it...so, its counter productive to the pocket book to add on a new car payment to "save" on gas.

iTimmy

That may not be a joke in a few years.

hemhaw

I traded down from a GTO, doubling my gas mileage and getting $3500 back, to boot.

Originally, I bought an '06 Si, but the interior was pretty cheezy IMO. Also, I know I'm supposed to be in awe of Honda's ability to get these high HP numbers out of small displacement engines, but frankly, I don't want a daily driver that revs to 8000 rpm.

Clearly, the GTO spoiled me and made me a torque junkie, but vtec on the Si didn't even kick in until 6500 rpm!

Sold the Si after a month, bought an '06 Miata for the same price, with leather. Life is good.

Costco

I don't understand the whole downgrading phenomenon. Fine, if you commute 20,000+ miles a year, then get a fuel efficient vehicle like a Prius. But like its been said, the savings negligible once the incurring fees are added on.

While it may not be a wise financial move to buy a different car and sell your current one, I think it would be satisfying/worthwhile IF you're bored of your current car and want something different. Say if you had a roadster for a few years and wanted to buy a small sedan, sure. I don't think its worth it to get rid of a fun/nice car in exchange for a boring ride even if I pocket a few thousand in the process. I'll just regret my decision, and be reminded of what I did every time I drive the car. Unless you're on the brink of financial suicide then I don't see what the big deal is.

Hell if I ever drive a Prius and only a Prius. Sure, the extra 25-30 mpg would be nice but its still not worth it to me. If it was, you'd see me driving one. And if you think it is, why AREN'T you driving one?

Sarlacc

I said it another thread...I might be retarded but I'm still serious about wanting a challenger...I just cant help it.

SakiGT

IMO, when gas prices quickly reach the point where the trade in would be worth it, that wont be your issue.

Trying to buy a gallon of milk for $10, or a carton of eggs for $6 ...thats gonna be the issue.

Besides, if my 2.4L turbo brick can get 24mpg, the sedans on this board should be able to as well.

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

i really need to change my spark plugs when i get home... :sigh:

F23A4

If the OP really wants to save some money, he/she should opt for a Civic EX 5MT. That said, the fuel savings between the Si and TL-S is fairly negligible for average driving. My wife gets bet 26-28 mpg in mixed driving with our AV6 5AT; as such it has become her primary vehicle as she drives much further than I do.

Rock2534

Seems the op was really focusing on the performance aspect of both cars, with that being the case you are not going to get good mileage with either car. I would just hold on to the TL and tone down the heavy acceleration, save that for a weekend drive.

charliemike

I wasn't kidding. Gas is definitely more expensive but the hysteria around fuel economy is making people make stupid financial decisions.

As I mentioned I think 5mpg is the minimum level of fuel economy increase needed before trading vehicles makes sense. At an even swap. If there's cash involved then that has to be accounted for in the trade-off.

If it's +5mpg but you can go from premium to regular then it's a no-brainer as there's upwards of a $.30+ price differential between the two grades at most places around here.

Again with diesel, because of the 12%+ price differential between regular gas and diesel, and then the extra cost of a diesel engine, you need to be at least +15mpg.

Obviously, if someone drives 8k miles a year it probably doesn't make much of a difference. If they drive 15,000+ miles then we start to see pretty big numbers in savings.

sonnyboyacura

Well, I own an 08 SI and have put about 12k miles on it. It's a great car. IMO its a verstaile car that can give you good gas mileage or fun performance. Just because it has a 8k redline does mean every shift will be at 7.5k. For optimal fuel economy you shift around 2.5-3k. The higher RPMs are always there for when you need them. This car does beg you to run in a gear lower than you should. If you should be in 3rd, you'll want to run it in 2nd so it's just itching to snap ur neck back and start screaming. LOL But it'll empty the gas tank that way.

The car handles great, the are some rattles but thats almost a given with Honda/Acura. I haven't had ANY issues with my car thus far. It's good in the snow also. The AC compressor is a tad bit weak but the car will burn you alive in the winter time. LOL It fusses a bit when trying to start in weather under 30 degrees but always does. The seats are very supportive/comfy for long trips. The interior materials arent the best and can scratch easily.

I think for $23k OTD I got a reliable DD with decent performance and good gas mileage. As with most honda/acuras it'll run forever if properly maintained.

A few other tidbits:
- The paint is kinda thin, which is nothing new for HOndas
- The steering is kinda light but you get used to it. I hated it when my g/f got her 07 but I got used to it. Kinda just dawned on me.
- It's hard to mod it at this point if thats your kind of thing.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

This article pretty much sums up what I have thought for the last couple years regarding hybrids and older used cars regarding mileage

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/05/the-ultimate-pr.html

Gilgamesh

~2800 lb vs. ~3500 lb

Yeah that 700 lbs just falls away in the twisties.

I suppose you smoke M5's all the time too?

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

^^^

I just downgraded to a 98 Integra GS-R Sedan from a 6spd CL-S. I knew going in that the Integra is a much better handling car and I'm not biased towards what car I own as my validation. I had previously owned a '97 GS-R Sedan as well.

Anyone wanna buy my CL-S?

hemhaw

I don't disagree. There's a lot of panic selling right now. In my case it made sense, first and foremost, because I have 4 cars and have been unemployed for 8 months. I'm "retooling" (back in school), so something had to give.

Plus, when I bought the goat, I was driving 35 hwy miles a day (commute) - 22 MPG. Now that I've joined the ranks of the unemployed, it's all urban and it's 14 mpg.

The OP should leave well enough alone. The '07 TL is a fantastic car, and while not a gas sipper, the mileage isn't bad enough to warrant a change.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

As of '03 and '04 the newer honda and acura's were getting harder and harder to mod.

Integra and older gen Civic FTW.

sonnyboyacura

I'd have to agree that you should prolly keep the Acura. If you were simply looking to buy a new car without an existing vehicle, I'd highly recommend the SI. I believe it gives you the best of both worlds. But since you have a car that's decent on gas, I wouldn't "downgrade" to the SI.

IMHO if you downgrade, you need to get a prius or a regular civic to get MAX fuel economy. The SI can achieve awesome MPG but it takes a concentrated effort.

sonnyboyacura

Not to stray too far from helping the OP. I think that I'm going to wait until the warranty expires before modding. I probally won't do anything too serious. I/H and maybe a supercharger down the line. I'm sure they'll crack the barriers sooner or later. Being my DD, I don't expect much from this car other than being reliable. I'll have a weekend car in due time.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

I'm doing the same with my teggy, intake, headers, and suspension. don't know how much farther I want to go without sacrificing reliability either.

K, back on topic.

Civic SI Sedan is a great looking car. I would love to own one in white.

Sarlacc

white or black

I love them, very fun to drive.

junktionfet

That's cool. I assumed the fuel economy difference would be more than you all are making it out to be, but I guess not. I based that assumption on the fact that my TSX got me at least 5mpg better in mixed driving than the TL-S, and perhaps as much as 7mpg higher sometimes on the freeway. I figured that with the Si being smaller, lighter, and having a slightly smaller K series engine, it might be able to do 2 mpg more on top of that.

I'm sure part of my problem is that I have a hard time staying out of the throttle in the TL-S. Maybe I should just disable a couple of the injectors on the TL-S?

sonnyboyacura

I can get 30-35mpg on the highway if controlled driving. Normal driving, city/highway mix, I got 25 mpg.

If you have a hard time staying off the gas in the TL, it'll be worse in the SI. Just for the simple fact that all the power is up top. You want the power, you want the sound of the banshee engine hollering at the top of its lungs and you sacrifice at the pump for it.

It's good on mileage if you keep the RPM's down. It's fun to drive when you wring it out. I like to have that choice. It's a good car and like any other it has it's issues. I'll be more than glad to elaborate further if you have any specific questions.

sonnyboyacura

Fuji Blue Pearl is where it's at. I too prefer the sedan. The tail end of the coupe is too feminine for my tastes. The tail of the sedan reminds me of the Audi's a tiny bit. It has a nice aggressive look to it.

nokiaman

+1

Mokos23

good review

Brandon24pdx

Unless you're downgrading to a Smart Fortwo or something like that, getting rid of your TL-S wont financially change your life that much. You'll just be an unhappy guy driving a slow car. (Yes, the K series engines aren't that powerful feeling around town for the milage they offer.)

Mokos23

yep i know that myself with the TSX.

sonnyboyacura

While I agree that he shouldn't downgrade, I do disagree that the K20 is "slow".

Gilgamesh

Anyone that says that has no clue how drive a 4 cylinder Honda

Brandon24pdx

Riiight, I never wrung out the K24 in my 06 TSX, and dont know what the acceleration characteristics of a Honda 4 banger are

Any K-series powered Honda is going to feel like a turd compared to a J35 TL-S, end of story.

Gilgamesh

The K24 and K20 are VERY different beasts my friend. The cars are slower than the J35 6's I'll give you that. But the K20 is no slouch.

From a roll, when its on the cam, that motor is just plain nasty.

Costco

Thats the beautiful effect of of a narrow powerband way up top. It gives you the sense of intense acceleration. That's one appeal of Hondas, they feel faster than they actually are, usually.

That, compared to the unending surge of speed in a car with a broad torque curve... those cars don't "feel" fast but usually are, and at much a wider range of RPMs.

sonnyboyacura

Of course I'm a bit partial to the K20 but am able to be honest about what is and what it can do. That being said, you're doing the engine a disservice by lumping it together as just another 4-banger.

I've driven a loaner TSX in the past and I believe that there is a decently sized difference between the 24 and the 20. Nobody is comparing the K20 to your precious J35 but calling the K20 "slow" is simply inaccurate IMHO. Some would classify your J35 slow and that wouldn't be accurate. It may be slower but not outright slow.

I was recently reading that the k20 gets about 100HP per liter and that this stat is kinda of special? Is this true? Is 100hp/liter not common? Please educate me. LOL