Honda 6 Speed Manual Dilemma - Article
01-09-2008, 10:00 PM
#42
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The 1-2 or 2-3 grind is somewhat known around the S2Ki boards.
On my S2K, it's more of a "notchiness" than grind when going from 2-3. It tends to get more noticeable when my gas tank is empty (I have no clue why, maybe cause it just happens out of coincidence) and after starting up (especially cold days). I had notified the dealer twice, second time when I noticed that getting into 3 took more effort than usual...so far I had my tranny fluid replace and it helped for a bit. Every once in a while I feel the notchiness, or less than smooth 2-3.
On my S2K, it's more of a "notchiness" than grind when going from 2-3. It tends to get more noticeable when my gas tank is empty (I have no clue why, maybe cause it just happens out of coincidence) and after starting up (especially cold days). I had notified the dealer twice, second time when I noticed that getting into 3 took more effort than usual...so far I had my tranny fluid replace and it helped for a bit. Every once in a while I feel the notchiness, or less than smooth 2-3.
01-10-2008, 08:10 PM
#43
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As mentioned the reason you don't want to skip gears in these Honda 6 speeds is mainly the difference in rotational speed between the countershaft and main shaft of the transmission.
The most common reason people skip shift gears is because they blast second gear to redline and are happy with that speed. So they shift into 5th or 6th.
Since there is such a rotational speed difference in the shafts going from full RPM switching to such a high gear quickly means there is a large amount of rotational mass to slow to get both shafts syncronized.
The 4,5,6th gear syncros are small. So they are not up to this repeated task.
Hope that makes some type of sense.
The most common reason people skip shift gears is because they blast second gear to redline and are happy with that speed. So they shift into 5th or 6th.
Since there is such a rotational speed difference in the shafts going from full RPM switching to such a high gear quickly means there is a large amount of rotational mass to slow to get both shafts syncronized.
The 4,5,6th gear syncros are small. So they are not up to this repeated task.
Hope that makes some type of sense.
01-10-2008, 08:28 PM
#44
Racer
I find double clutching during a downshift requires more effort in my 03 CLS. I have used the double-clutching method before, but could not get the smooth transfer during the downshift. Honda/Acura clutches tend to be relatively soft in comparison to some other cars I have driven.
But I understand the longetivity benefit of double-clutching.
It might be served better in a car with a stiffer or firmer clutch.
But I understand the longetivity benefit of double-clutching.
It might be served better in a car with a stiffer or firmer clutch.
01-10-2008, 08:38 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoy
Ok, just got back from picking up some photos I had a shop print from some old slides of my 1966 SS396/360 Chevelle when it was box stock. I've been meaning to do this for years and finally remembered to have it done. I still have the original carbon copy order form for that car! Now for your questions about downshifting and double clutching. For my explanations, assume you're downshifting from 4th to 3rd gear.
Common method of downshifting; widely done.
o Remove foot from throttle while depressing clutch pedal.
o Move shifter into 3rd gear.
o Slowly begin to release clutch.
This is the worse method of downshifting in that it creates the most wear on the clutch components and the synchronizers.
Downshifting using the Rev-Matching method.
o Remove foot from throttle while depressing clutch pedal.
o Move shifter into 3rd gear and blip the throttle to raise engine RPMs at the same time.
o Release clutch pretty much in a normal manner.
This is a far better method than the "Common" one above. Doing this will significantly reduce clutch component wear, but will not reduce synchronizer wear any more than the first method.
Downshifting using the double clutching method.
o Remove foot from throttle while depressing clutch pedal.
o Move shifter towards 3rd gear. As you enter the neutral gate, blip the throttle while at the same time release the clutch some (or all). Fully depress the clutch again and complete the shift to 3rd gear.
o Release clutch normal (as though you were in neutral and were letting the clutch out).
This is double clutching and not only saves a boatload of wear on the clutch components, but results in a very significant reduction to synchronizer wear.
Now some explanation is in order.
When you rev-match without double clutching, you are only spinning up the engine, and the flywheel and pressure plate. Since you have the clutch disengaged, the disk is not receiving any clamping pressure and therefore the transmission input shaft plus the gears attached to it are slowing down. The "driven" gears (basically those attached to the drive wheels) are still turning at their proper speeds since they are permanently locked to the drive wheels. When your shift causes the synchronizers to mate, there is a greater difference in gear speeds, so the synchronizers (which are like little clutches) have a bit more work to do in order the bring the speeds of these gears into alignment for a completed shift (dog teeth into hubs, not gears being shifted). More work means more friction which means more wear.
When you double clutch, you are momentarily engaging the clutch as you blip the throttle while in the neutral gate. This clamps the entire clutch assembly together, transmitting engine speed through the clutch to the transmission input shaft. There will be a point at which the speed of the "drive" gears and that of the of the "driven" gears will match, and that is when you complete your shift. Virtually no clutch wear and not synchronizer wear will be the result of all of this.
Hope this helps.
Common method of downshifting; widely done.
o Remove foot from throttle while depressing clutch pedal.
o Move shifter into 3rd gear.
o Slowly begin to release clutch.
This is the worse method of downshifting in that it creates the most wear on the clutch components and the synchronizers.
Downshifting using the Rev-Matching method.
o Remove foot from throttle while depressing clutch pedal.
o Move shifter into 3rd gear and blip the throttle to raise engine RPMs at the same time.
o Release clutch pretty much in a normal manner.
This is a far better method than the "Common" one above. Doing this will significantly reduce clutch component wear, but will not reduce synchronizer wear any more than the first method.
Downshifting using the double clutching method.
o Remove foot from throttle while depressing clutch pedal.
o Move shifter towards 3rd gear. As you enter the neutral gate, blip the throttle while at the same time release the clutch some (or all). Fully depress the clutch again and complete the shift to 3rd gear.
o Release clutch normal (as though you were in neutral and were letting the clutch out).
This is double clutching and not only saves a boatload of wear on the clutch components, but results in a very significant reduction to synchronizer wear.
Now some explanation is in order.
When you rev-match without double clutching, you are only spinning up the engine, and the flywheel and pressure plate. Since you have the clutch disengaged, the disk is not receiving any clamping pressure and therefore the transmission input shaft plus the gears attached to it are slowing down. The "driven" gears (basically those attached to the drive wheels) are still turning at their proper speeds since they are permanently locked to the drive wheels. When your shift causes the synchronizers to mate, there is a greater difference in gear speeds, so the synchronizers (which are like little clutches) have a bit more work to do in order the bring the speeds of these gears into alignment for a completed shift (dog teeth into hubs, not gears being shifted). More work means more friction which means more wear.
When you double clutch, you are momentarily engaging the clutch as you blip the throttle while in the neutral gate. This clamps the entire clutch assembly together, transmitting engine speed through the clutch to the transmission input shaft. There will be a point at which the speed of the "drive" gears and that of the of the "driven" gears will match, and that is when you complete your shift. Virtually no clutch wear and not synchronizer wear will be the result of all of this.
Hope this helps.
This is very good information.
I won't argue any of it except to say the older crowd still has this stuck in their head that double clutching is a MUST.
The real reason double clutching was done on older cars was because manual transmissions did not have syncros.
Took a bit more skill.
Once transmissions got synchronizers drivers no longer had to do this.
Thats the reason we have syncros, so we don't have to dick around. Clutch shift and be done.
In my opinion as long as you are at least trying to rev match extreme downshifts and shifting smoothly no worries are needed.
Not only that the transmission fluid has become amazing the past 15 years.
The wear protection is great. As long as you are changing it there is no reason your trans should not last 200,000 miles.
01-11-2008, 05:29 AM
#46
Registered Member
Originally Posted by dezoris
As mentioned the reason you don't want to skip gears in these Honda 6 speeds is mainly the difference in rotational speed between the countershaft and main shaft of the transmission.
The most common reason people skip shift gears is because they blast second gear to redline and are happy with that speed. So they shift into 5th or 6th.
Since there is such a rotational speed difference in the shafts going from full RPM switching to such a high gear quickly means there is a large amount of rotational mass to slow to get both shafts syncronized.
The 4,5,6th gear syncros are small. So they are not up to this repeated task.
Hope that makes some type of sense.
The most common reason people skip shift gears is because they blast second gear to redline and are happy with that speed. So they shift into 5th or 6th.
Since there is such a rotational speed difference in the shafts going from full RPM switching to such a high gear quickly means there is a large amount of rotational mass to slow to get both shafts syncronized.
The 4,5,6th gear syncros are small. So they are not up to this repeated task.
Hope that makes some type of sense.
01-11-2008, 05:42 AM
#47
Registered Member
Originally Posted by dezoris
This is very good information.
I won't argue any of it except to say the older crowd still has this stuck in their head that double clutching is a MUST.
The real reason double clutching was done on older cars was because manual transmissions did not have syncros.
Took a bit more skill.
Once transmissions got synchronizers drivers no longer had to do this.
Thats the reason we have syncros, so we don't have to dick around. Clutch shift and be done.
In my opinion as long as you are at least trying to rev match extreme downshifts and shifting smoothly no worries are needed.
Not only that the transmission fluid has become amazing the past 15 years.
The wear protection is great. As long as you are changing it there is no reason your trans should not last 200,000 miles.
I won't argue any of it except to say the older crowd still has this stuck in their head that double clutching is a MUST.
The real reason double clutching was done on older cars was because manual transmissions did not have syncros.
Took a bit more skill.
Once transmissions got synchronizers drivers no longer had to do this.
Thats the reason we have syncros, so we don't have to dick around. Clutch shift and be done.
In my opinion as long as you are at least trying to rev match extreme downshifts and shifting smoothly no worries are needed.
Not only that the transmission fluid has become amazing the past 15 years.
The wear protection is great. As long as you are changing it there is no reason your trans should not last 200,000 miles.
It's not a MUST, it's just a technique which improves both the driver's ability and increases the longevity of all relevant parts and components.
As for the when and why double clutching was used, yes it was a virtual must for non-synchronized transmissions, but manual trannies with synchronizers for cars have been around for over 50 years... nothing new there.
Rev-matching is a vastly better downshifting technique than the downshift-and-slowly-release-clutch method. Double clutching simply takes it another step further. As for the Honda transmissions and most others, I would wager the Muncie 4-speed series (M20, M21, and M22) were superior in just about every area.
Finally, as I have written many times, in the end it is the decision of the owner as to how he wishes to operate his vehicle that counts.
01-11-2008, 04:44 PM
#50
Cruisin'
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoy
Older crowd?? You've got to be kidding (heh, heh)
It's not a MUST, it's just a technique which improves both the driver's ability and increases the longevity of all relevant parts and components.
As for the when and why double clutching was used, yes it was a virtual must for non-synchronized transmissions, but manual trannies with synchronizers for cars have been around for over 50 years... nothing new there.
Rev-matching is a vastly better downshifting technique than the downshift-and-slowly-release-clutch method. Double clutching simply takes it another step further. As for the Honda transmissions and most others, I would wager the Muncie 4-speed series (M20, M21, and M22) were superior in just about every area.
Finally, as I have written many times, in the end it is the decision of the owner as to how he wishes to operate his vehicle that counts.
It's not a MUST, it's just a technique which improves both the driver's ability and increases the longevity of all relevant parts and components.
As for the when and why double clutching was used, yes it was a virtual must for non-synchronized transmissions, but manual trannies with synchronizers for cars have been around for over 50 years... nothing new there.
Rev-matching is a vastly better downshifting technique than the downshift-and-slowly-release-clutch method. Double clutching simply takes it another step further. As for the Honda transmissions and most others, I would wager the Muncie 4-speed series (M20, M21, and M22) were superior in just about every area.
Finally, as I have written many times, in the end it is the decision of the owner as to how he wishes to operate his vehicle that counts.
In terms of track driving this method would be unusable, so it would also be wiser to stick with rematched down shifts and heel to toe maneuvers for balance and safety.
While it might be good for people to learn double clutching they also take the risk of grinding the hell out of the trans many times trying to get it right.
01-15-2008, 12:57 AM
#52
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give me a break. Don't baby a high performance xmission to try and compensate for engineering flaws. Short ratios have all these folks skippping gears. People are mostly lemmings thinking more gears are better. If you can't drive your car with no clutch smootly then you haven't learned how to drive properly in my mind.
Heel toe an accord. Gimme a break. Take the bus!
Heel toe an accord. Gimme a break. Take the bus!
01-17-2008, 05:16 PM
#53
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2nd grinds pretty badly when it's cold, and occasionally i have the same problem as civics (even when warm) on 3rd and 4th. there seems to be 2 'engagement' points on the shifter, and maybe 1/100 times in my car it'll get caught on the first 'engagement' and grind the shit out of my gear.. and i can sometimes replicate the 2 'engagements' when the car is off..
then again, i also have this 'problem'
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192820
i always double clutch my downshifts..
maybe this is a little easier to understand
ex. 4 to 3 downshift
1. stick is in 4th
2. clutch in
3. shift to neutral
4. clutch out
5. 'blip' throttle to approx. where you think (or slightly above) rpm will be in 3rd gear going at your current speed
6. clutch in
7. shift to 3rd
8. clutch out
step 4, from what i read/know, you want to be totally off the clutch before going to step 5 (blip - spinning the clutch wears it out faster)
then again, i also have this 'problem'
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192820
i always double clutch my downshifts..
maybe this is a little easier to understand
ex. 4 to 3 downshift
1. stick is in 4th
2. clutch in
3. shift to neutral
4. clutch out
5. 'blip' throttle to approx. where you think (or slightly above) rpm will be in 3rd gear going at your current speed
6. clutch in
7. shift to 3rd
8. clutch out
step 4, from what i read/know, you want to be totally off the clutch before going to step 5 (blip - spinning the clutch wears it out faster)
Last edited by rp_guy; 01-17-2008 at 05:20 PM.
01-18-2008, 05:13 AM
#54
Registered Member
Originally Posted by rp_guy
2nd grinds pretty badly when it's cold, and occasionally i have the same problem as civics (even when warm) on 3rd and 4th. there seems to be 2 'engagement' points on the shifter, and maybe 1/100 times in my car it'll get caught on the first 'engagement' and grind the shit out of my gear.. and i can sometimes replicate the 2 'engagements' when the car is off..
then again, i also have this 'problem'
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192820
i always double clutch my downshifts..
maybe this is a little easier to understand
ex. 4 to 3 downshift
1. stick is in 4th
2. clutch in
3. shift to neutral
4. clutch out
5. 'blip' throttle to approx. where you think (or slightly above) rpm will be in 3rd gear going at your current speed
6. clutch in
7. shift to 3rd
8. clutch out
step 4, from what i read/know, you want to be totally off the clutch before going to step 5 (blip - spinning the clutch wears it out faster)
then again, i also have this 'problem'
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192820
i always double clutch my downshifts..
maybe this is a little easier to understand
ex. 4 to 3 downshift
1. stick is in 4th
2. clutch in
3. shift to neutral
4. clutch out
5. 'blip' throttle to approx. where you think (or slightly above) rpm will be in 3rd gear going at your current speed
6. clutch in
7. shift to 3rd
8. clutch out
step 4, from what i read/know, you want to be totally off the clutch before going to step 5 (blip - spinning the clutch wears it out faster)
However, most people (and I am one) do in fact, fully engage the clutch during the "blip-and-engage-in-neutral" phase of the double clutch for the simple reason that it's more natural. Also with the TL, the clutch pedal has a relatively short travel anyway.
You're doing fine.
As for the gear grinding, what you're really hearing is not gears grinding (since in reality, you never actually "shift" gears), but rather dog teeth skipping over their mating holes in the hubs of the chosen gear.
Last edited by SouthernBoy; 01-18-2008 at 05:16 AM.
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