General Car Talk Discussion Thread
#7442
Senior Moderator
Hory shet find of the day: 1966 Ford GT40 Mark I...in a garage under a pile of junk. Literally.
Read more on this incredible find here: http://www.thegentlemanracer.com/201...sis-p1067.html
Read more on this incredible find here: http://www.thegentlemanracer.com/201...sis-p1067.html
#7443
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What's interesting is that the R8 doesn't seem to suffer much from that. It seems to hold its own against Astons, Maseratis, even with the Gallardo.
#7444
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Thread Starter
I think that's because the R8 has that "exotic" appeal that puts it in the same league as the others. This is due to the mid-engine, low-stance, # of vents (lol), European heritage, things of that nature. Also keep in mind it's price. The Vette will never be considered an exotic, IMO. Not even the ZR1 is considered an exotic.
#7445
Senior Moderator
Maserati is kinda a coin-flip I guess. Still, at least with the Audi, the merits is that it is mid-engine and shares an engine that the Gallardo uses...so, at least you can back that up. And, Audi is a premium brand anyhow...
Thing is, Chevrolet is not a premium brand...it's got a fantastic vehicle but if you are talking about snob factor, it loses in spades.
#7446
Senior Moderator
And voila, srika has said pretty much the same thing above my post.
#7447
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Thread Starter
partly.
except I would slap the R8 V10 into the same league as the Vantage and Gallardo... it's completely at the same (or better) performance level and has the looks both inside and out to go with it. And, the $$$$ too.
except I would slap the R8 V10 into the same league as the Vantage and Gallardo... it's completely at the same (or better) performance level and has the looks both inside and out to go with it. And, the $$$$ too.
#7448
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I think you guys make a good point with the mid-engine layout playing a big part in its exotic appeal.
Yumcha, that's my point with the prestige, though. I don't consider Audi as a make in the same league as my examples, but I DO consider the R8 up there with Vantages, Maserati Coupe, Ferrari California, etc.
Yumcha, that's my point with the prestige, though. I don't consider Audi as a make in the same league as my examples, but I DO consider the R8 up there with Vantages, Maserati Coupe, Ferrari California, etc.
Last edited by Aman; 02-24-2014 at 02:28 PM.
#7449
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Thread Starter
oh yeah, employing the same engine as the Gallardo is another big factor in the club it's in.
#7450
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Thread Starter
I think you guys make a good point with the mid-engine layout playing a big part in its exotic appeal.
Yumcha, that's my point with the prestige, though. I don't consider Audi as a make in the same league as my examples, but I DO consider the R8 up there with Vantages, Maserati Coupe, Ferrari California, etc.
Yumcha, that's my point with the prestige, though. I don't consider Audi as a make in the same league as my examples, but I DO consider the R8 up there with Vantages, Maserati Coupe, Ferrari California, etc.
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ttribe (02-24-2014)
#7451
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I was trying to think of an exotic from an otherwise plebian automaker, and I think this one is a good example:
This car had/has plenty of snob factor IMO from a brand that was the farthest thing from premium at the time.
This car had/has plenty of snob factor IMO from a brand that was the farthest thing from premium at the time.
#7452
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Makes you wonder where the C7 would stack up against its competitors if brand snobbery didn't exist.
#7453
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Not especially when there are other more exclusive brands available. That's part of the intrinsic value.
#7454
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Thread Starter
The ZR1, has so much going for it in terms of technology and performance. Hell, it has Ferrari brakes on it. That aspect always blows my mind. The rear rotors are the same as the fronts on an Enzo, and the fronts are the same as on a FXX (I think the fronts). It has 638hp which is suredly in the stratosphere level. But it's just this "Chevy" stigma that holds it back. And remember the car is "only" $100k. This is not enough for the big leagues. What if they charged $200k for the car? Well then people would just say it's completely overpriced. It's a tough sell for Chevy. Look at the C7Z06. It looks amazing and has the performance to match, it has the materials, fit, finish, interior, etc. BUT - it does NOT have that exotic appeal. For one, it sits too high. It looks too bulky and cladded. Exotics are quite simple in these aspects, sticking to a tried-and-tested formula. Low, wide, fast, and very expensive.
#7455
Senior Moderator
But, that's my PERSONAL bias because I think the world of those cars.
Then again, you go up to a rich millionaire and ask him to dump his $$$ into a supercar...and he only had one choice...would he spend that on a "Ford" or something else?
#7456
Senior Moderator
I think you guys make a good point with the mid-engine layout playing a big part in its exotic appeal.
Yumcha, that's my point with the prestige, though. I don't consider Audi as a make in the same league as my examples, but I DO consider the R8 up there with Vantages, Maserati Coupe, Ferrari California, etc.
Yumcha, that's my point with the prestige, though. I don't consider Audi as a make in the same league as my examples, but I DO consider the R8 up there with Vantages, Maserati Coupe, Ferrari California, etc.
Form and function versus the "prestige" are very different and in some cases, no matter how much a manufacturer TRIES to compete in the form and function aspect, they lose in the prestige...
It's a superficial world.
#7457
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srika: What about the NSX? That car was surprisingly practical, wasn't it?
Yumcha: I guess you're right in that it's entirely subjective which models surpass their brand with prestige, for lack of a better phrase. Still makes for good discussion.
Yumcha: I guess you're right in that it's entirely subjective which models surpass their brand with prestige, for lack of a better phrase. Still makes for good discussion.
#7458
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Thread Starter
NSX nears and arguably reaches the exotic level, based on being low and wide, along with limited numbers. Indeed, it sought out to change those commonly held negative aspects which defined exotics up to that point. And, it was successful in that purpose. And again, heritage is a part of the formula. Honda has that heritage with it's racing history in F1 along with the other motorsports areas. Ayrton Senna's involvement in the development of the NSX is another factor, IMO. They are key touches that enhance and supplement the value of the car, from a sporting view.
If you personally would rather buy a certain brand over another just because of the brand name and nothing else, I think that would fall under the category of "status symbol". And I generally frown upon that path of decision-making.
If you personally would rather buy a certain brand over another just because of the brand name and nothing else, I think that would fall under the category of "status symbol". And I generally frown upon that path of decision-making.
#7459
Fahrvergnügen'd
The GT isn't a fair comparison because it's based on the GT40 which has impeccable motorsports credentials. So it gets a huge pass from auto snobs. Plus it's expensive which means riff raff plebians aren't going to own one.
If Chevrolet did with Corvette what Dodge did with SRT then perhaps it might be considered differently. Maybe. Clarkson would still poke at the plastic panels and sigh at what I'm sure he equates to the engine technology of a tractor but you wouldn't be getting your car serviced next to a Vauxhall Astra diesel (or Chevrolet Spark).
I think that all these reviews that ignore the "Would I buy it over car X" discussion are basically saying "As good as it is, it's a Chevy. And Chevrolets are pickup trucks and bad cars driven by fat Americans."
If Chevrolet did with Corvette what Dodge did with SRT then perhaps it might be considered differently. Maybe. Clarkson would still poke at the plastic panels and sigh at what I'm sure he equates to the engine technology of a tractor but you wouldn't be getting your car serviced next to a Vauxhall Astra diesel (or Chevrolet Spark).
I think that all these reviews that ignore the "Would I buy it over car X" discussion are basically saying "As good as it is, it's a Chevy. And Chevrolets are pickup trucks and bad cars driven by fat Americans."
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Yumcha (02-24-2014)
#7460
I think an NSX is much more of an exotic than even a ZR1 or C7 Z06 is.
Exclusivity plays a huge part. So does cost of entry. Even a "base model" California is $200k. Meanwhile a base Corvette is $50k. If they suddenly made a drastic change in the Corvette lineup, where the cheapest model was $100k, then in a couple of generations I could see the Corvette being considered exotic.
Meanwhile a nearby dealership has Corvettes sitting on their lot by the dozens. I see at least one Corvette on the road every week. Even the C7. NSX or 458 is much more rare.
Exclusivity plays a huge part. So does cost of entry. Even a "base model" California is $200k. Meanwhile a base Corvette is $50k. If they suddenly made a drastic change in the Corvette lineup, where the cheapest model was $100k, then in a couple of generations I could see the Corvette being considered exotic.
Meanwhile a nearby dealership has Corvettes sitting on their lot by the dozens. I see at least one Corvette on the road every week. Even the C7. NSX or 458 is much more rare.
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Yumcha (02-24-2014)
#7461
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Thread Starter
I do think the GT is a fair comparison, just because of the name. "Ford" and "Chevy" both have that classic American stigma and are ridiculed by many as such. The GT laughs in the face of this stigma and I think it's admirable.
#7462
Hell, I wouldn't even call Porsches exotic. Even a 911 GT2. Exception being the 918 Spyder.
Some cars just fall into a gray area. Even if it costs $500k to start, it has to have a specific set of attributes.
Some cars just fall into a gray area. Even if it costs $500k to start, it has to have a specific set of attributes.
#7463
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Thread Starter
CGT and 918 are exotic - so is the Schuppan 962, 911GT1, and other road-going race cars. For these it really comes down to how it sits, along with the limited numbers. Exclusivity also puts the 959 on the list.
#7464
Senior Moderator
They don't have the same problem as Chevy has (as per our discussion right now about the Corvette's "lack of respect")...
#7465
Fahrvergnügen'd
Ford would never have built, let alone sold, the GT without the GT40 heritage. I understand what you're saying but that car would never have been justifiable without the race history.
#7466
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
That may be true, but having "impeccable racing credentials" is not alone enough to make a car "exotic". Corvette has a quite admirable and lengthy racing history too, for instance.
#7467
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You're right, but the general public doesn't really care about ALMS (or sports car racing in general) anymore. I'd imagine Le Mans was all the rage back in the 60s. Not to mention the battle between Ford and Ferrari.
#7468
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I'm not a fan of Corvettes, but the ZR-1 would be an exotic if it were a different badge. So yes, definitely some snobbery there.
#7469
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This should be interesting. Fisker's coming back with a Chinese parent.
http://www.autonews.com/article/2014...tion-this-year
BEIJING (Reuters) -- U.S.-based Fisker Automotive, which has been acquired by China's largest auto parts company, plans to restart production of its Karma plug-in hybrid luxury car "within a year" and will also complete the half-finished development of a second model, according to a senior executive.
Pin Ni, head of the U.S. unit of the Wanxiang Group, which acquired Fisker's assets for $149.2 million in a U.S. bankruptcy auction, said Fisker plans to restart production of the Karma as early as this year at its plant in Finland and start selling Karma cars again in the United States and Europe.
The car, a hybrid-electric vehicle equipped with a small gasoline engine that kicks in when its battery is depleted, was previously sold at a starting price of around $100,000 before Fisker ceased production in 2012 after a series of missteps and recalls.
Ni said the Hangzhou-based Wanxiang is finalizing business plans for Fisker and doesn't have a forecast for how many Karmas it plans to sell.
"Obviously we want to sell more than what Fisker sold before under its previous management," Ni said. "We would like to restart Karma production within a year."
Fisker, which began selling the Karma in 2011, sold a total of 1,800 before it suspended production, falling far short of initial projections that it would sell 11,000 sedans by early 2012.
Once sales gain steam, Ni said Fisker could quickly commence production of the Karma in the United States.
There are several options for U.S. production, he said, including cooperating with "a potential partner out of Michigan."
It could also make use of a former General Motors plant in Delaware, where Fisker had tried to produce cars using a loan of up to $529 million the U.S. Department of Energy provided to promote clean-energy vehicles. Ni declined to elaborate on the Michigan option.
Ni said producing Fisker cars in China was a possibility in the future because China is promoting the use of all-electric battery cars and other green cars with generous purchase subsidies.
"We don't know yet. The first step is the United States," he said. "But China is a huge market we cannot ignore. So, down the road we are going to look into the China market for sure. China is a 22 million unit a year market. All we need is to make just a very, very small splash," he said, referring to sales.
Wanxiang, according to Ni, also wants Fisker to complete the half-finished development of a second model called the Atlantic, a mid-sized gasoline-electric hybrid sedan that was to be positioned as a more affordable "volume model" under Fisker's previous management and was slated to go into production in 2015.
Fisker, founded in 2007, burned through more than $1 billion in private investment in addition to $192 million of the U.S. government loan. It had $168 million outstanding when Fisker filed for bankruptcy. A U.S. bankruptcy judge ordered Fisker's assets be put up for sale to raise money to pay creditors.
Despite the troubled history, there was intense bidding for Fisker's assets, a collection of patents and designs, a dealer and customer network and production facilities.
Wanxiang and its founder Lu Guanqiu outbid a company controlled by Richard Li of Hong Kong in a battle of Chinese billionaires. Bidding started at $55 million and went through 18 rounds before Wanxiang emerged victorious earlier this month.
Pin Ni, head of the U.S. unit of the Wanxiang Group, which acquired Fisker's assets for $149.2 million in a U.S. bankruptcy auction, said Fisker plans to restart production of the Karma as early as this year at its plant in Finland and start selling Karma cars again in the United States and Europe.
The car, a hybrid-electric vehicle equipped with a small gasoline engine that kicks in when its battery is depleted, was previously sold at a starting price of around $100,000 before Fisker ceased production in 2012 after a series of missteps and recalls.
Ni said the Hangzhou-based Wanxiang is finalizing business plans for Fisker and doesn't have a forecast for how many Karmas it plans to sell.
"Obviously we want to sell more than what Fisker sold before under its previous management," Ni said. "We would like to restart Karma production within a year."
Fisker, which began selling the Karma in 2011, sold a total of 1,800 before it suspended production, falling far short of initial projections that it would sell 11,000 sedans by early 2012.
Once sales gain steam, Ni said Fisker could quickly commence production of the Karma in the United States.
There are several options for U.S. production, he said, including cooperating with "a potential partner out of Michigan."
It could also make use of a former General Motors plant in Delaware, where Fisker had tried to produce cars using a loan of up to $529 million the U.S. Department of Energy provided to promote clean-energy vehicles. Ni declined to elaborate on the Michigan option.
Ni said producing Fisker cars in China was a possibility in the future because China is promoting the use of all-electric battery cars and other green cars with generous purchase subsidies.
"We don't know yet. The first step is the United States," he said. "But China is a huge market we cannot ignore. So, down the road we are going to look into the China market for sure. China is a 22 million unit a year market. All we need is to make just a very, very small splash," he said, referring to sales.
Wanxiang, according to Ni, also wants Fisker to complete the half-finished development of a second model called the Atlantic, a mid-sized gasoline-electric hybrid sedan that was to be positioned as a more affordable "volume model" under Fisker's previous management and was slated to go into production in 2015.
Fisker, founded in 2007, burned through more than $1 billion in private investment in addition to $192 million of the U.S. government loan. It had $168 million outstanding when Fisker filed for bankruptcy. A U.S. bankruptcy judge ordered Fisker's assets be put up for sale to raise money to pay creditors.
Despite the troubled history, there was intense bidding for Fisker's assets, a collection of patents and designs, a dealer and customer network and production facilities.
Wanxiang and its founder Lu Guanqiu outbid a company controlled by Richard Li of Hong Kong in a battle of Chinese billionaires. Bidding started at $55 million and went through 18 rounds before Wanxiang emerged victorious earlier this month.
http://www.autonews.com/article/2014...tion-this-year
#7470
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
you really think people considering the Ford GT thought "I know it's a Ford, but the GT40 did great in LeMans racing in the 60's, so I don't mind buying a Ford GT" I am just not seeing it
#7471
Fahrvergnügen'd
I still feel like the more appropriate comparison would be if Ford made the next GT350/500/whatever as good as a C7. They should cost about the same.
#7472
Ford GT owners have never struck me that way. For one, most people aren't going to be amazed if you said, "I have a Ford GT" b/c half the people will laugh at the Ford name & the other half will wonder wtf is a GT? Like der Mustangz?
They built this car as homage to the original car, & from my view, the people who bought the GT were people really in touch with that homage to start. I think another large chunk saw the potential in this being a well-built, usable supercar in an era where the Europeans were finally getting their reliability together. Then you have the group who probably bought the car as an investment & are waiting just another decade or so to make a healthy profit off the car.
For anyone who bought the GT to have some snob appeal, are only going to have that against other Merica! car owners & the majority of them are ignorant enthusiasts who think the Europeans & Japanese build over priced or under-powered junk.
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charliemike (02-24-2014)
#7473
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
#7474
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
lol
#7475
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
something I happened to come across just now...
#7476
Well, hang on. If I'm talking prestige/exclusivity of a brand, I would not at this moment slap Audi in the same breath as Aston Martin or Lamborghini.
Maserati is kinda a coin-flip I guess. Still, at least with the Audi, the merits is that it is mid-engine and shares an engine that the Gallardo uses...so, at least you can back that up. And, Audi is a premium brand anyhow...
Thing is, Chevrolet is not a premium brand...it's got a fantastic vehicle but if you are talking about snob factor, it loses in spades.
Maserati is kinda a coin-flip I guess. Still, at least with the Audi, the merits is that it is mid-engine and shares an engine that the Gallardo uses...so, at least you can back that up. And, Audi is a premium brand anyhow...
Thing is, Chevrolet is not a premium brand...it's got a fantastic vehicle but if you are talking about snob factor, it loses in spades.
I get bashed a lot because my opinions(almost always backed by facts) is worded in a way that seem like I'm trolling.
Anyways, I disagree with you about Audi being a 'Tier 1' Brand.
This is a great article on what is Tier 1.
http://autoperspectives.com/blog/201...have-a-future/
In America:
""The fact remains that only Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Lexus have achieved the volume, credibility and prestige to be true Tier 1""
Let's take a look at what Audi have achieved in 2013(their best year) and what Lexus have achieved in 2013(an average year for them).
Keep in mind this is an average Lexus year against Audi's greatest peak in America.
We look at the Audi A4. A car that severely under cut the competition by starting their MSRP at 33,000. After fees and taxes you can realistically drive away with an Audi A4 for around 37,000.
Meanwhile the Lexus IS and ES both hit over 40,000 after tax/fees. Keep in mind the Lexus IS did not launch until the 2nd half of 2013 and nobody was buying them in the first half.
So the Audi A4 moved 42,000 units compared to the ES/IS'S 107,000.
The flagship LS moved TWICE as many units as Audi's A8. Both start at 75,000 in the US.
The SUV Flagship RX350 from Lexus moved almost THREE TIMES as many units as Audi's decent RX imitation SUV.
The A6 is the only unit that gained an edge over the GS and it was only marginal.
I don't really know what Audi's answer is to the IS F but it sure as Hell isn't the TT.
I guess Audi got a super car called the R8. Beautiful car. Lexus got one that costs twice as much. It's called the LFA.
Anyways, Audi is well on it's way to Tier 1, but it's not quite there yet.
#7477
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Resist the urge folks...
#7479
Moderator
He tried this nonsense in his first thread on the board, already: https://acurazine.com/forums/5g-tlx-2015-2020-415/going-trade-my-lexus-tlx-tlx-going-hit-903289/
Pretty sure it won't fly any better here than it did there.
Pretty sure it won't fly any better here than it did there.
#7480
Senior Moderator
What the eff is that smell coming from post #7476...!??