Future of gasoline only cars
01-13-2022, 09:02 PM
#241
My first Avatar....
I'll just put this here to let the experts take this apart.
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01-14-2022, 09:23 AM
#242
Old Man Yelling at Clouds
Good video. I think they are right.
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1killercls (01-14-2022)
01-14-2022, 12:29 PM
#243
AZ Community Team
That was a pretty bad video, no numbers (kW/hr, excess capacity, scalable cost,....) just ranking and raving about infrastructure but not really explaining or understanding it 
He did bring up one point being Level 1/2/3 but never fully explained that either.
Scale of 0-10, it gets a 1
He did bring up one point being Level 1/2/3 but never fully explained that either.
Scale of 0-10, it gets a 1
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nist7 (01-15-2022)
01-14-2022, 10:33 PM
#244
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
One of the more interesting things I saw in Europe was small grocery stores like Lidl and Aldi having charging stations there. Maybe just two or three, but they powered them via solar panels on their roof.Germany and the UK are doing this. So this might be a thing for Kroger / Wegmans / or an other big supermarket chain. They have power already. Now some type of solar/capacitor/battery system that will let them store power for some nighttime and bad weather days.
EV Charging in Germany
EV Charging in Germany
01-15-2022, 10:53 AM
#245
Safety Car
That was a pretty bad video, no numbers (kW/hr, excess capacity, scalable cost,....) just ranking and raving about infrastructure but not really explaining or understanding it
He did bring up one point being Level 1/2/3 but never fully explained that either.
Scale of 0-10, it gets a 1
He did bring up one point being Level 1/2/3 but never fully explained that either.
Scale of 0-10, it gets a 1
While I like Ray and Zach for what they've built as a small business/family business and leveraging their charisma/experience/viewer relatibility (the young Zach as the relatable non-insider more inline with your avg buyer...and then his dad Ray as the experienced former salesman/dealer insider to provide tips and industry insights)....their banter/raving is much more entertainment than true technical/indepth analysis. They have access to some insider info that we do not (market conditions, pricing conditions, some insider industry concepts/ideas/phrases)...but other than that its just a 2ndary entertainment video I sometimes will listen on my other monitor to the side.
Lot of their opinions are just that...their own opinions and hunches without real world data/knowledge. They're clearly embedded in the ICE industry and their foray into related industries and their lack of expertise shows. (just watch them talk about the computer chip shortage...)
They seem like likeable people but for expertise in areas they are not well-versed in...they fall pretty flat
But again, this is basically 95% of YouTube....it allows individuals to monetize their charisma/face/humor for the most part. Added expertise is a plus but not required.
And extreme ends of the YouTube spectrum is clear in this regard.,..some channels leverage a huge amount of drama/clickbait/"personality" (see all the big clickbait channels) or you have to go super indepth into well researched videos (see all the big "knowledge"/expertise channels that often has NO face of the creator/narrator)
Last edited by nist7; 01-15-2022 at 10:56 AM.
01-15-2022, 11:55 AM
#246
When the Tech/infrastructure are ready (Whenever that may be), there should be plenty of charging ports (more than needed) at the hotel instead of just 2 or 3 we see nowadays. Once taken, those cars never leave. You should get a full charge at a reasonable speed (not sure how fast we can get in the future)
Last time i was in Vegas, there was this Model X parked there at the charging port when i arrived on Friday and was still in the same spot (never moved) when i left on Tues
having just a few % of the cars on the road that are EV require very different tech and solutions than say 80% of the cars on the road are EV...
I know we got people here who just ignore those things, but in reality, those can't be ignored. At some point, they will hit a bottle neck if the Tech/Infrastructure can't keep up with the EV Growth...
Most of the people can't afford 40k 50k 60k EVs that we have now. At some point, there would be 20k/30k EVs with reasonable range that normal people could afford. So we still have a loooong way to go..
Last time i was in Vegas, there was this Model X parked there at the charging port when i arrived on Friday and was still in the same spot (never moved) when i left on Tues
having just a few % of the cars on the road that are EV require very different tech and solutions than say 80% of the cars on the road are EV...
I know we got people here who just ignore those things, but in reality, those can't be ignored. At some point, they will hit a bottle neck if the Tech/Infrastructure can't keep up with the EV Growth...
Most of the people can't afford 40k 50k 60k EVs that we have now. At some point, there would be 20k/30k EVs with reasonable range that normal people could afford. So we still have a loooong way to go..
For example, a typical hotel now has a 400kw base load:
https://www.aceee.org/files/proceedi...apers/1984.pdf
Just “adding charging ports” is only the beginning of the problem. If a typical charging port pulls 20kw peak, and a hotel has ?100? cars plugged in (there are more than 100 parking spaces at a multi story hotel, but not every charger will be used at the same time, so I used this figure for the sake of argument) you just added 2 million watts to the hotel’s usual load of 400 thousand. That is a massive problem. That problem will reverberate all the way back up the chain of the electrical infrastructure. As an example, one of the large nuclear plants, Browns Ferry in the TVA system, generates 3,800 megawatts at peak load. So, given our hotel example, the second largest nuclear plant in the nation, which cost $3 billion to build in 2007 dollars, will power 1500 hotels with 100 cars plugged in (actually less but I am neglecting distribution losses for simplicity). That seems like a lot but remember the units already are supplying a large part of their capacity for homes and everything else, and those folks don’t want their lights turned out and heat turned off to recharge cars at hotels.
So, long story short, sure it can be done, but it will take time and big $$ and you will have to get used to nuclear plants and cooling towers multiplying like rabbits. There is an old saying, “be careful what you wish for”. And if you think solar and wind can supply these loads, remember most cars will be plugged in at night, which leaves solar out, and wind is unreliable, not to mention it has environmental costs of its own (as does solar - you don’t think putting millions of acres of ground in permanent shade will not have an effect on wildlife?).
So hey, I love electric, but this will take time. Just my 2 cent's
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01-15-2022, 12:05 PM
#247
Safety Car
Good points. "Infrastructure" is more than just end-user facing charging stations....the entire backend in terms of power generation and power transmission (lines and substations, etc.) has to be uplifted.
I recently saw a show discussion the issue of transmission lines where new lines are difficult to build since you have to get permission to cross properties and state-lines. AND power stations seems to be insanely complex facilities where any deviation from a certain frequency in their generators can cause HUGE problems and can lead to generator being taken off line to prevent damage and prevent power stations from being cmopletely going dark and having to do a black start (apparently a insanely difficult and lengthy process...hence rolling blackouts to prevent this from what I understand)...and needing to supply enough electricity when demand goes up and down during the day (ie the Texas power disaster last winter)...since at this time there doesn't seem to be a viable way for LARGE amounts of reserve power to be dispensed at a moments notice on a very large scale...given the enormous financial, political, NIMBY (not in my back yard) and other complexities....it seems to me that very wide scale EV adoption is very very long ways away (and this is not even getting into the myriad issues of current end-user EVs in terms of longevity, charging time, ownership cost, etc. etc.)
I recently saw a show discussion the issue of transmission lines where new lines are difficult to build since you have to get permission to cross properties and state-lines. AND power stations seems to be insanely complex facilities where any deviation from a certain frequency in their generators can cause HUGE problems and can lead to generator being taken off line to prevent damage and prevent power stations from being cmopletely going dark and having to do a black start (apparently a insanely difficult and lengthy process...hence rolling blackouts to prevent this from what I understand)...and needing to supply enough electricity when demand goes up and down during the day (ie the Texas power disaster last winter)...since at this time there doesn't seem to be a viable way for LARGE amounts of reserve power to be dispensed at a moments notice on a very large scale...given the enormous financial, political, NIMBY (not in my back yard) and other complexities....it seems to me that very wide scale EV adoption is very very long ways away (and this is not even getting into the myriad issues of current end-user EVs in terms of longevity, charging time, ownership cost, etc. etc.)
Last edited by nist7; 01-15-2022 at 12:07 PM.
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billxlisa (01-15-2022)
01-15-2022, 06:23 PM
#248
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
More good on this subject. NY State has delusions of being very green but not really looking at the reality of physics.
NY State Climate Plan
NY State Climate Plan
01-17-2022, 06:05 AM
#249
GEEZER
I think one thing missing in this discussion is infrastructure details. I am an electrical engineer, and this greatly concerns me. You think you see a lot of power lines and substations now? Please don’t underestimate the amount of power it takes to operate a car. We have gotten jaded because of the very high energy content of liquid fuels. Cars are heavy and require a lot of energy to move around. Those charging ports don’t create energy. There has to be an upstream electrical feed for each one.
For example, a typical hotel now has a 400kw base load:
https://www.aceee.org/files/proceedi...apers/1984.pdf
Just “adding charging ports” is only the beginning of the problem. If a typical charging port pulls 20kw peak, and a hotel has ?100? cars plugged in (there are more than 100 parking spaces at a multi story hotel, but not every charger will be used at the same time, so I used this figure for the sake of argument) you just added 2 million watts to the hotel’s usual load of 400 thousand. That is a massive problem. That problem will reverberate all the way back up the chain of the electrical infrastructure. As an example, one of the large nuclear plants, Browns Ferry in the TVA system, generates 3,800 megawatts at peak load. So, given our hotel example, the second largest nuclear plant in the nation, which cost $3 billion to build in 2007 dollars, will power 1500 hotels with 100 cars plugged in (actually less but I am neglecting distribution losses for simplicity). That seems like a lot but remember the units already are supplying a large part of their capacity for homes and everything else, and those folks don’t want their lights turned out and heat turned off to recharge cars at hotels.
So, long story short, sure it can be done, but it will take time and big $$ and you will have to get used to nuclear plants and cooling towers multiplying like rabbits. There is an old saying, “be careful what you wish for”. And if you think solar and wind can supply these loads, remember most cars will be plugged in at night, which leaves solar out, and wind is unreliable, not to mention it has environmental costs of its own (as does solar - you don’t think putting millions of acres of ground in permanent shade will not have an effect on wildlife?).
So hey, I love electric, but this will take time. Just my 2 cent's
For example, a typical hotel now has a 400kw base load:
https://www.aceee.org/files/proceedi...apers/1984.pdf
Just “adding charging ports” is only the beginning of the problem. If a typical charging port pulls 20kw peak, and a hotel has ?100? cars plugged in (there are more than 100 parking spaces at a multi story hotel, but not every charger will be used at the same time, so I used this figure for the sake of argument) you just added 2 million watts to the hotel’s usual load of 400 thousand. That is a massive problem. That problem will reverberate all the way back up the chain of the electrical infrastructure. As an example, one of the large nuclear plants, Browns Ferry in the TVA system, generates 3,800 megawatts at peak load. So, given our hotel example, the second largest nuclear plant in the nation, which cost $3 billion to build in 2007 dollars, will power 1500 hotels with 100 cars plugged in (actually less but I am neglecting distribution losses for simplicity). That seems like a lot but remember the units already are supplying a large part of their capacity for homes and everything else, and those folks don’t want their lights turned out and heat turned off to recharge cars at hotels.
So, long story short, sure it can be done, but it will take time and big $$ and you will have to get used to nuclear plants and cooling towers multiplying like rabbits. There is an old saying, “be careful what you wish for”. And if you think solar and wind can supply these loads, remember most cars will be plugged in at night, which leaves solar out, and wind is unreliable, not to mention it has environmental costs of its own (as does solar - you don’t think putting millions of acres of ground in permanent shade will not have an effect on wildlife?).
So hey, I love electric, but this will take time. Just my 2 cent's
01-17-2022, 10:59 AM
#250
Ex-OEM King
I think one thing missing in this discussion is infrastructure details. I am an electrical engineer, and this greatly concerns me. You think you see a lot of power lines and substations now? Please don’t underestimate the amount of power it takes to operate a car. We have gotten jaded because of the very high energy content of liquid fuels. Cars are heavy and require a lot of energy to move around. Those charging ports don’t create energy. There has to be an upstream electrical feed for each one.
For example, a typical hotel now has a 400kw base load:
https://www.aceee.org/files/proceedi...apers/1984.pdf
Just “adding charging ports” is only the beginning of the problem. If a typical charging port pulls 20kw peak, and a hotel has ?100? cars plugged in (there are more than 100 parking spaces at a multi story hotel, but not every charger will be used at the same time, so I used this figure for the sake of argument) you just added 2 million watts to the hotel’s usual load of 400 thousand. That is a massive problem. That problem will reverberate all the way back up the chain of the electrical infrastructure. As an example, one of the large nuclear plants, Browns Ferry in the TVA system, generates 3,800 megawatts at peak load. So, given our hotel example, the second largest nuclear plant in the nation, which cost $3 billion to build in 2007 dollars, will power 1500 hotels with 100 cars plugged in (actually less but I am neglecting distribution losses for simplicity). That seems like a lot but remember the units already are supplying a large part of their capacity for homes and everything else, and those folks don’t want their lights turned out and heat turned off to recharge cars at hotels.
So, long story short, sure it can be done, but it will take time and big $$ and you will have to get used to nuclear plants and cooling towers multiplying like rabbits. There is an old saying, “be careful what you wish for”. And if you think solar and wind can supply these loads, remember most cars will be plugged in at night, which leaves solar out, and wind is unreliable, not to mention it has environmental costs of its own (as does solar - you don’t think putting millions of acres of ground in permanent shade will not have an effect on wildlife?).
So hey, I love electric, but this will take time. Just my 2 cent's
For example, a typical hotel now has a 400kw base load:
https://www.aceee.org/files/proceedi...apers/1984.pdf
Just “adding charging ports” is only the beginning of the problem. If a typical charging port pulls 20kw peak, and a hotel has ?100? cars plugged in (there are more than 100 parking spaces at a multi story hotel, but not every charger will be used at the same time, so I used this figure for the sake of argument) you just added 2 million watts to the hotel’s usual load of 400 thousand. That is a massive problem. That problem will reverberate all the way back up the chain of the electrical infrastructure. As an example, one of the large nuclear plants, Browns Ferry in the TVA system, generates 3,800 megawatts at peak load. So, given our hotel example, the second largest nuclear plant in the nation, which cost $3 billion to build in 2007 dollars, will power 1500 hotels with 100 cars plugged in (actually less but I am neglecting distribution losses for simplicity). That seems like a lot but remember the units already are supplying a large part of their capacity for homes and everything else, and those folks don’t want their lights turned out and heat turned off to recharge cars at hotels.
So, long story short, sure it can be done, but it will take time and big $$ and you will have to get used to nuclear plants and cooling towers multiplying like rabbits. There is an old saying, “be careful what you wish for”. And if you think solar and wind can supply these loads, remember most cars will be plugged in at night, which leaves solar out, and wind is unreliable, not to mention it has environmental costs of its own (as does solar - you don’t think putting millions of acres of ground in permanent shade will not have an effect on wildlife?).
So hey, I love electric, but this will take time. Just my 2 cent's
First of all, infrastructure needs to grow in lock step with demand. Some might argue that we're already behind (I'd be one of those people) but that honestly has nothing to do with EVs as we've been behind for decades. No one is going to build out infrastructure until there is defined demand to require it. Electric generation and distribution is insanely expensive so without known and willing customers, it's not going to happen. For those of you "waiting for infrastructure", it's likely you'll be waiting forever because it's a chicken or egg situation.
Second, all of those cars don't pull 100% peak power all at once. Distribution management is definitely something that's already done. If everyone turned on all their lights, all the refrigerators, air conditioners, and other high draw devices all turned on at once in every house, you could definitely take down the grid right now. As it sits TODAY, the grid can support the number of EV's on the road. As that number grows, the ability of the grid to support that load will have to grow in lock step. No one is going to quintuple electric generation and distribution on a whim today but it'll certainly happen over time.
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Sarlacc (01-17-2022)
01-18-2022, 10:06 AM
#251
AZ Community Team
Electricity Grids Can Handle Electric Vehicles Easily – They Just Need Proper Managem
I was gonna work some infrastructure electrical generation numbers but it was just easier to find a media source who's already researched the numbers. This article in Forbes illustrates why there is no shortage of electrical capacity for EV's as they will slowly evolve. Also illustrates the amount of spare capacity and total generated capacity which illustrates the difference between usage and capacity. Bottom line, there's no power generation shortage as randomness of charging will even it out for the most part, the last mile problem of getting chargers deployed still exists but it's not a technology problem but more a logistics problem and is also easily scaled.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmo...h=6d918b4c7862
Also the DOE, has some decent energy info.
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/...-and-sales.php
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmo...h=6d918b4c7862
The biggest mistake the social media keyboard warriors make is the very strange assumption that all cars could be charging at once. In the UK, there are currently 32,697,408 cars according to the UK Department of Transport. The UK national grid had a capacity of 75.8GW in 2020. If all the cars in the UK were EVs and charging at the same time at 7kW (the typical home charger rate), they would need 229GW – three times the UK grid capacity. If they were all charging at 50kW (a common public DC charger rate), they would need 1.6TW – 21.5 times the UK grid capacity. That sounds unworkable, and this is usually the kind of thinking behind those who claim the grid won’t handle EVs.
What they don’t seem to realize is that the chances of every single car charging all at once are infinitesimally low. Their arguments seem to assume that nobody ever drives their car, and just charges it all the time. If you look at averages, the absurdity of this position becomes particularly clear. The distance each UK car travels per year has been slowly dropping, and was 7,400 miles on average in 2019, again according to the UK Department of Transport. An EV will do somewhere between 2.5 and 4.5 miles per kWh on average, so let’s go in the middle and say 3.5 miles. In other words, each car will consume an average of 2,114kWh per year. Multiply that by the number of cars, and you get 69.1TWh. But the UK national grid produced 323TWh of power in 2019, so that is only 21.4% of the energy it produced for the year. Before you argue that’s still a problem, the UK grid produced 402TWh in 2005, which is more than the 2019 figure plus charging all the EVs in the UK put together. The capacity is there.
Let’s do the same calculation for the USA. In 2020, there were 286.9 million cars registered in America. In 2020, while the US grid had 1,117.5TW of utility electricity capacity and 27.7GW of solar, according to the US Energy Information Administration. If all the cars were EVs charging at 7kW, they would need 2,008.3TW – nearly twice the grid capacity. If they charged at 50kW, they would need 14,345TW – 12.8 times the capacity.
However, in 2020, the US grid generated 4,007TWh of electricity. Americans drive further on average than Brits – 13,500 miles per year, according to the US Department of Transport’s Federal Highway Administration. That means an American car, if it were an EV, would need 3,857kWh per year, assuming the average efficiency figures above. If all US cars were EVs, they would need a total of 1,106.6TWh, which is 27.6% of what the American grid produced in 2020. US electricity consumption hasn’t shrunk in the same way since 2005 as it has in the UK, but it is clearly not unfeasible for all American cars to be EVs. The US grid could cope too.
What they don’t seem to realize is that the chances of every single car charging all at once are infinitesimally low. Their arguments seem to assume that nobody ever drives their car, and just charges it all the time. If you look at averages, the absurdity of this position becomes particularly clear. The distance each UK car travels per year has been slowly dropping, and was 7,400 miles on average in 2019, again according to the UK Department of Transport. An EV will do somewhere between 2.5 and 4.5 miles per kWh on average, so let’s go in the middle and say 3.5 miles. In other words, each car will consume an average of 2,114kWh per year. Multiply that by the number of cars, and you get 69.1TWh. But the UK national grid produced 323TWh of power in 2019, so that is only 21.4% of the energy it produced for the year. Before you argue that’s still a problem, the UK grid produced 402TWh in 2005, which is more than the 2019 figure plus charging all the EVs in the UK put together. The capacity is there.
Let’s do the same calculation for the USA. In 2020, there were 286.9 million cars registered in America. In 2020, while the US grid had 1,117.5TW of utility electricity capacity and 27.7GW of solar, according to the US Energy Information Administration. If all the cars were EVs charging at 7kW, they would need 2,008.3TW – nearly twice the grid capacity. If they charged at 50kW, they would need 14,345TW – 12.8 times the capacity.
However, in 2020, the US grid generated 4,007TWh of electricity. Americans drive further on average than Brits – 13,500 miles per year, according to the US Department of Transport’s Federal Highway Administration. That means an American car, if it were an EV, would need 3,857kWh per year, assuming the average efficiency figures above. If all US cars were EVs, they would need a total of 1,106.6TWh, which is 27.6% of what the American grid produced in 2020. US electricity consumption hasn’t shrunk in the same way since 2005 as it has in the UK, but it is clearly not unfeasible for all American cars to be EVs. The US grid could cope too.
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/...-and-sales.php
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SamDoe1 (01-18-2022)
01-18-2022, 10:09 AM
#252
Moderator
^ But, you can pretty much count on a noted increase of evening charging, as I'm sure the majority of suburbs EV owners will charge overnight.
01-18-2022, 10:27 AM
#253
Ex-OEM King
The rate at which cars charge at home is WAY WAY WAY lower than what you get at a fast charger. Most home chargers will max out at 20kW, mine maxes at 4kW when a fast charger is 250+kW. Also, the amount of energy a car sucks down in a night is FAR less than the capacity of the battery and does not take anywhere close to the whole night to charge. My car added ~22kW last night but I haven't charged in 3 days lol.
01-18-2022, 10:42 AM
#254
Moderator
Thanks for that, didn't realize the huge gap in energy consumption between them.
01-18-2022, 12:51 PM
#255
Team Owner
The rate at which cars charge at home is WAY WAY WAY lower than what you get at a fast charger. Most home chargers will max out at 20kW, mine maxes at 4kW when a fast charger is 250+kW. Also, the amount of energy a car sucks down in a night is FAR less than the capacity of the battery and does not take anywhere close to the whole night to charge. My car added ~22kW last night but I haven't charged in 3 days lol.
When you have 70 80 or 90% of all cars on the road are EV... i dont know if there is ever an OFF peak rate since everyone is charging at night... what we know as off peak might become peak
Either way, US requires major major infrastructure improvement from the nuclear power plant to the ports that is used to charge the car and everything in between. Not 1 private businesses is big enough to implement those changes in the US.
The US government must step in and force things to happen. So far all i heard is blah blah blah talks BS and no real action. All thunder and no rains.
Just like the 1/4 mile bridge on 10 freeway that took 15 years to build... Your kids might have kids already when we finally have some infrastructures done
The US politics would prevent anything meaningful from being done, GOP would block Dem just because. and Dem would probably do the same.
That is why i dont believe anything significant would change in the next several years. Even the car manuf. are willing, the consumers are willing, the politicians will just cockblock everything.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 01-18-2022 at 12:54 PM.
01-18-2022, 01:54 PM
#256
Ex-OEM King
As the rate of EV adoption increases, the generation will have to increase at the same time. It simply has to just like the number of gas stations and refinery capacity increased to support demand from the car industry. No one is going to randomly double the generation capacity on a whim or a random stupid prediction of when that percentage would occur regardless of what our most comfortable member would suggest.
In any case, the thing to realize is that not all these cars are charging at once nor are they all pulling peak current to charge all the time.
In any case, the thing to realize is that not all these cars are charging at once nor are they all pulling peak current to charge all the time.
01-19-2022, 03:03 PM
#257
Old Man Yelling at Clouds
The interesting part is these infrastructure changes take a LONG time. How many years does it take to plan, fund and build a new power plant? So while electrical demand may trickle up, the existing infrastructure can only take so much before you need some kind of new generation source.
Wondering who is thinking about the X new power plants we'll need by 2030......or will they wait for it to be crisis first.
Wondering who is thinking about the X new power plants we'll need by 2030......or will they wait for it to be crisis first.
01-19-2022, 03:55 PM
#258
My first Avatar....
Take a look at texass. 
01-19-2022, 03:58 PM
#259
Team Owner
The interesting part is these infrastructure changes take a LONG time. How many years does it take to plan, fund and build a new power plant? So while electrical demand may trickle up, the existing infrastructure can only take so much before you need some kind of new generation source.
Wondering who is thinking about the X new power plants we'll need by 2030......or will they wait for it to be crisis first.
Wondering who is thinking about the X new power plants we'll need by 2030......or will they wait for it to be crisis first.
I think electricity is pretty green.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 01-19-2022 at 04:01 PM.
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pttl (01-19-2022)
01-19-2022, 04:03 PM
#260
Team Owner
03-17-2022, 09:58 AM
#261
Old Man Yelling at Clouds
Came across this cool list of upcoming EVs by Car and Driver.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g2...c-cars-trucks/
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g2...c-cars-trucks/
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pttl (03-17-2022)
03-17-2022, 01:06 PM
#263
Team Owner
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1Louder (03-17-2022)
03-17-2022, 02:48 PM
#264
Ex-OEM King
The slower i4 is the one to get IMO. The faster one gets shit for range which sucks without a charging network to support it if it's your only car.
03-17-2022, 03:12 PM
#265
Team Owner
Regardless what the i4's MSRP is, with the exception of i8, all of their Hybrid and EV's incentives and lease payments have not been proportionate to its MSRP. Heavily subsided lease was the idea to bring more customers while maintaining a BMW level of MSRP.
Like Before the shit show started 330e was cheaper to lease than 330i and 530e was "dirt cheap". even tho they all had higher MSRP than their gas counterparts.
Too bad the market has other ideas... and now they are stuck with a 70k M50i that barely a few would buy.. Unless someone is really in love with EVs. i dont know why i would choose i4 M40i over a M3 for a few thousand more.
03-17-2022, 03:21 PM
#266
Ex-OEM King
I think BMW had other ideas about the pricing when it comes to EVs. But the market and chip shortage threw them a curve ball that they are stuck with.
Regardless what the i4's MSRP is, with the exception of i8, all of their Hybrid and EV's incentives and lease payments have not been proportionate to its MSRP. Heavily subsided lease was the idea to bring more customers while maintaining a BMW level of MSRP.
Like Before the shit show started 330e was cheaper to lease than 330i and 530e was "dirt cheap". even tho they all had higher MSRP than their gas counterparts.
Too bad the market has other ideas... and now they are stuck with a 70k M50i that barely a few would buy.. Unless someone is really in love with EVs. i dont know why i would choose i4 M40i over a M3 for a few thousand more.
Regardless what the i4's MSRP is, with the exception of i8, all of their Hybrid and EV's incentives and lease payments have not been proportionate to its MSRP. Heavily subsided lease was the idea to bring more customers while maintaining a BMW level of MSRP.
Like Before the shit show started 330e was cheaper to lease than 330i and 530e was "dirt cheap". even tho they all had higher MSRP than their gas counterparts.
Too bad the market has other ideas... and now they are stuck with a 70k M50i that barely a few would buy.. Unless someone is really in love with EVs. i dont know why i would choose i4 M40i over a M3 for a few thousand more.
Also, you can get $7500 from the feds for buying one and the markup is probably less as well.
I personally would buy the M3 non comp just to get the MT and save even more money but that's just me.
Last edited by SamDoe1; 03-17-2022 at 03:23 PM.
03-17-2022, 03:29 PM
#267
Team Owner
There are a lot of people who would. The i4M50 has AWD for starters along with it being an EV that doesn't need gas which is now very expensive. It also has the newer infotainment, way less upkeep, probably cheaper insurance, etc etc etc and it's not really that different from a stop light performance standpoint.
Also, you can get $7500 from the feds for buying one and the markup is probably less as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrVZ6IUNkws&t=321s
I personally would buy the M3 non comp just to get the MT and save even more money but that's just me.
Also, you can get $7500 from the feds for buying one and the markup is probably less as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrVZ6IUNkws&t=321s
I personally would buy the M3 non comp just to get the MT and save even more money but that's just me.
Again i said i would not.. of course there will be some takers. We will see how many will get the i4M50i.
Gas prices are expensive, but if you are the market for 70-80k car, i seriously dont think $20 more a tank would make a dent in anyone's wallet. EV or ICE.
Upkeep and insurance again. almost irrelevant in that price range.
the new infotainment system, i like it but it seems a lot of ppl actually hate the last Generation Mercedes wannabe screens.
03-18-2022, 09:31 AM
#268
Ex-OEM King
M3 xDrive is even more expensive than the i4 and the $7500 discount to the i4 is appealing. People in that price range for cars absolutely care about gas and upkeep. I was in that price range and absolutely cared about it lol. Add $100k to that price tag and I'd agree that they don't give a shit then.
04-04-2022, 04:52 PM
#270
Team Owner
Was in Vegas over the weekend. We flew and my friend and his wife drove there with their new KIA EV6 GT line AWD and they picked us up at Vegas airport.
Not that i would get 1. But for the price, it is a very good EV.
EV6 top trim after tax credit/rebates is pretty much the same price as the standard Model 3 and it is better in just every single way inside and out (minus the super charging stations).
It also has a hatch...
But i am still confused after seeing it in person... i dont know if that is a wagon or a SUV....
Not that i would get 1. But for the price, it is a very good EV.
EV6 top trim after tax credit/rebates is pretty much the same price as the standard Model 3 and it is better in just every single way inside and out (minus the super charging stations).
It also has a hatch...
But i am still confused after seeing it in person... i dont know if that is a wagon or a SUV....
Last edited by oonowindoo; 04-04-2022 at 04:57 PM.
04-05-2022, 09:28 AM
#271
Moderator
I've seen a couple at a Kia dealer on my commute, it definitely looks bigger than expected, but not full-SUV mode.
Talking of Vegas, was talking to my mom over the weekend & she said gas is still >$5 there & was something like $130 to fill her F150
Talking of Vegas, was talking to my mom over the weekend & she said gas is still >$5 there & was something like $130 to fill her F150
04-05-2022, 09:33 AM
#272
Ex-OEM King
Was in Vegas over the weekend. We flew and my friend and his wife drove there with their new KIA EV6 GT line AWD and they picked us up at Vegas airport.
Not that i would get 1. But for the price, it is a very good EV.
EV6 top trim after tax credit/rebates is pretty much the same price as the standard Model 3 and it is better in just every single way inside and out (minus the super charging stations).
It also has a hatch...
But i am still confused after seeing it in person... i dont know if that is a wagon or a SUV....
Not that i would get 1. But for the price, it is a very good EV.
EV6 top trim after tax credit/rebates is pretty much the same price as the standard Model 3 and it is better in just every single way inside and out (minus the super charging stations).
It also has a hatch...
But i am still confused after seeing it in person... i dont know if that is a wagon or a SUV....
I saw a handful of the EV6 in LA last week, they look really cool IMO. Much more interesting looking that most EV's on the market today. I think it's more SUV/crossover than wagon though...as is everything these days.
04-05-2022, 12:14 PM
#273
Team Owner
How ever did they make it there and back with an EV???
I saw a handful of the EV6 in LA last week, they look really cool IMO. Much more interesting looking that most EV's on the market today. I think it's more SUV/crossover than wagon though...as is everything these days.
I saw a handful of the EV6 in LA last week, they look really cool IMO. Much more interesting looking that most EV's on the market today. I think it's more SUV/crossover than wagon though...as is everything these days.
While we were in Vegas, we took Uber and walked. No charging space available in self-parking as expected and the no charging ability with Valet either.
He took his car to the outlet shopping to get charged the day before he left and get charged again at Barstow and wait for 40 mins.
Yah that is what he did. Like i said, i know exactly what needs to be done, do-able but not for me.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 04-05-2022 at 12:18 PM.
04-05-2022, 01:25 PM
#274
Ex-OEM King
They stopped at Barstow for 40 mins to charge (20-80%), it seems the charging is still not as fast as super charging stations. He said the last 20% will take too much time. I guess the last 20% is special.
While we were in Vegas, we took Uber and walked. No charging space available in self-parking as expected and the no charging ability with Valet either.
He took his car to the outlet shopping to get charged the day before he left and get charged again at Barstow and wait for 40 mins.
Yah that is what he did. Like i said, i know exactly what needs to be done, do-able but not for me.
While we were in Vegas, we took Uber and walked. No charging space available in self-parking as expected and the no charging ability with Valet either.
He took his car to the outlet shopping to get charged the day before he left and get charged again at Barstow and wait for 40 mins.
Yah that is what he did. Like i said, i know exactly what needs to be done, do-able but not for me.
40min stop on a drive that long to pee and eat sounds pretty good. The one time I was in Vegas (which is more than enough for me) we ubered and walked too, I wouldn't want to drive in that shit storm.
04-05-2022, 01:56 PM
#275
Team Owner
Rate of charge slows as you fill the battery more. Above 80% and the rate is stupid slow, makes more sense to stop again somewhere else sooner than it does to keep charging at a slow rate.
40min stop on a drive that long to pee and eat sounds pretty good. The one time I was in Vegas (which is more than enough for me) we ubered and walked too, I wouldn't want to drive in that shit storm.
40min stop on a drive that long to pee and eat sounds pretty good. The one time I was in Vegas (which is more than enough for me) we ubered and walked too, I wouldn't want to drive in that shit storm.
250 miles is not that long. When i drive, i dont usually stop unless we have to pee... that is usually a quick 5 mins stop at a gas station and back on the road.
04-05-2022, 02:55 PM
#276
Old Man Yelling at Clouds
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oonowindoo (04-05-2022)
04-05-2022, 02:59 PM
#277
Ex-OEM King
We have different driving habits lol. I'd definitely stop for lunch and a stretch for that long of a drive. I COULD do it, I just don't want to regardless of type of propulsion. For any of my Jeep trips, we have to stop every 250 miles anyway...to fill the tank lol.
04-05-2022, 03:18 PM
#278
Team Owner
$130 on F150? Try $100 on a 3 series
04-05-2022, 03:22 PM
#279
Ex-OEM King
04-05-2022, 03:26 PM
#280
Team Owner
Not only that, I always take my mom to her doc appt and she will never make it to the doc without puking with the way EV drives... If you have motion sickness, you will know what i mean.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 04-05-2022 at 03:30 PM.