Are Fun Cars Doomed?
01-29-2011, 07:21 PM
#1
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Are Fun Cars Doomed?
So this article supports the thinking that led me to purchase my CTS-V.
Full article at:
http://wardsauto.com/ar/fun_cars_doomed_110127/
article continues at the link above.....
Full article at:
http://wardsauto.com/ar/fun_cars_doomed_110127/
Originally Posted by Drew Winter, Ward's Auto
“No diesel, steam, or gasoline
Let's take a ride in an electric car
Happiness resides in an electric car”
From “Electric Car” by They Might be Giants, a song especially popular with children.
In 2007, BMW AG half-buried four new Mini Clubman cars nose-first near the main hall of the Frankfurt Auto Show, where the model was to make its debut.
The stunt was a kitschy salute to the iconic Cadillac Ranch in Amarillo, TX. Constructed in 1974 by a group of avant-garde artists, the “ranch” consists of 10 vintage Cadillacs buried nose-first in the ground at an angle corresponding to the Great Pyramid of Giza in Egypt.
Ranging from the ’49 to ’63 model years, the strange sight of these half-buried autos in Texas traces the evolution of that uniquely American design feature, the tailfin, and shows how it mirrors the country’s mood during two starkly different decades, from giddy flamboyance to stark austerity.
Four years ago, BMW’s “Other Ranch” was just a bit of irreverent fun that attracted media attention to the new addition to the Mini family.
But when the images are viewed today, as environmental legislation grows more strident and the world’s youth seems more interested in playing with iPhones than driving pleasure, the idea of fun, affordable cars taking a dirt nap is a bit disturbing. Will “fun” be the tailfin of this decade?
Will Mini Coopers that average 35 mpg (6.7 L/100 km) soon be viewed as decadent, gas-guzzling relics from a silly bygone era, like the old cars at the Cadillac Ranch? Are we all doomed to hum “Happiness resides in an electric car?”
Mimicking “Cadillac Ranch” with Mini Clubman cars was publicity stunt in 2007, but image is bit worrisome.
No one is in panic mode yet, but some performance enthusiasts and product planners are nervous.
Here’s why:
New U.S. corporate average fuel economy standards already are pegged at 35.5 mpg (6.6 L/100 km) by 2016. The U.S. government says hitting that target will cost auto makers about $1,000 per car, but some independent estimates put the price tag much higher, from $4,000 to $7,000 per vehicle. That could put even modestly priced “fun” cars such as Mustangs and Mini Coopers out of reach for many consumers.
The Environmental Protection Agency, National Highway Traffic Safety Admin. and California legislators are all talking about a 62 mpg (3.8 L/100 km) fleet target for 2025. Meanwhile safety proponents are insisting on a growing array of design changes, from stronger roofs to improved pedestrian protection that can add weight, hurt performance and hinder stylish designs.
Emissions and fuel-economy legislation is forcing the electricification of vehicles, which critics say could lead to bland, appliance-like vehicles.
Tastes and habits are changing, especially among younger people. Generation Y, the vast new demographic of baby boomer children who are supposed to take the place of the parents in buying all sorts of new products, is not interested in buying new cars. This trend already is documented in Japan and considered a factor in the country’s weak vehicle sales.
Consumers of all ages, but especially young children, are being inundated by anti-automotive, anti internal-combustion engine messages from many sources. “Of course kids are less interested in cars. They’re teaching them in school to hate them, because they are bad for the environment,” says one product planner at a major auto maker in an unguarded moment.
Let's take a ride in an electric car
Happiness resides in an electric car”
From “Electric Car” by They Might be Giants, a song especially popular with children.
In 2007, BMW AG half-buried four new Mini Clubman cars nose-first near the main hall of the Frankfurt Auto Show, where the model was to make its debut.
The stunt was a kitschy salute to the iconic Cadillac Ranch in Amarillo, TX. Constructed in 1974 by a group of avant-garde artists, the “ranch” consists of 10 vintage Cadillacs buried nose-first in the ground at an angle corresponding to the Great Pyramid of Giza in Egypt.
Ranging from the ’49 to ’63 model years, the strange sight of these half-buried autos in Texas traces the evolution of that uniquely American design feature, the tailfin, and shows how it mirrors the country’s mood during two starkly different decades, from giddy flamboyance to stark austerity.
Four years ago, BMW’s “Other Ranch” was just a bit of irreverent fun that attracted media attention to the new addition to the Mini family.
But when the images are viewed today, as environmental legislation grows more strident and the world’s youth seems more interested in playing with iPhones than driving pleasure, the idea of fun, affordable cars taking a dirt nap is a bit disturbing. Will “fun” be the tailfin of this decade?
Will Mini Coopers that average 35 mpg (6.7 L/100 km) soon be viewed as decadent, gas-guzzling relics from a silly bygone era, like the old cars at the Cadillac Ranch? Are we all doomed to hum “Happiness resides in an electric car?”
Mimicking “Cadillac Ranch” with Mini Clubman cars was publicity stunt in 2007, but image is bit worrisome.
No one is in panic mode yet, but some performance enthusiasts and product planners are nervous.
Here’s why:
New U.S. corporate average fuel economy standards already are pegged at 35.5 mpg (6.6 L/100 km) by 2016. The U.S. government says hitting that target will cost auto makers about $1,000 per car, but some independent estimates put the price tag much higher, from $4,000 to $7,000 per vehicle. That could put even modestly priced “fun” cars such as Mustangs and Mini Coopers out of reach for many consumers.
The Environmental Protection Agency, National Highway Traffic Safety Admin. and California legislators are all talking about a 62 mpg (3.8 L/100 km) fleet target for 2025. Meanwhile safety proponents are insisting on a growing array of design changes, from stronger roofs to improved pedestrian protection that can add weight, hurt performance and hinder stylish designs.
Emissions and fuel-economy legislation is forcing the electricification of vehicles, which critics say could lead to bland, appliance-like vehicles.
Tastes and habits are changing, especially among younger people. Generation Y, the vast new demographic of baby boomer children who are supposed to take the place of the parents in buying all sorts of new products, is not interested in buying new cars. This trend already is documented in Japan and considered a factor in the country’s weak vehicle sales.
Consumers of all ages, but especially young children, are being inundated by anti-automotive, anti internal-combustion engine messages from many sources. “Of course kids are less interested in cars. They’re teaching them in school to hate them, because they are bad for the environment,” says one product planner at a major auto maker in an unguarded moment.
01-29-2011, 09:20 PM
#2
Senior Moderator
Nothing new.
I still think these companies will market to us enthusiasts. Hell i am impressed they can make such heavy cars still handle so well. People used to think it couldnt be done to have a 4200lbs car that can do 8min around the ring.
Plus blame the general public. These days it seems "cool" to get the best MPG. I swear people brag about it more than actual performance figures. Yet these will be the same people you see flying around town barely getting anywhere near they claim. They the ones who drive the market in this direction to save fuel.
Its a challenge but im being optimist about it. If all else fails then ill stick with my 16mpg hog.
I still think these companies will market to us enthusiasts. Hell i am impressed they can make such heavy cars still handle so well. People used to think it couldnt be done to have a 4200lbs car that can do 8min around the ring.
Plus blame the general public. These days it seems "cool" to get the best MPG. I swear people brag about it more than actual performance figures. Yet these will be the same people you see flying around town barely getting anywhere near they claim. They the ones who drive the market in this direction to save fuel.
Its a challenge but im being optimist about it. If all else fails then ill stick with my 16mpg hog.
01-29-2011, 09:23 PM
#3
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
I sure as hell didn't by my cars with MPG in mind. And I never will.
01-29-2011, 09:32 PM
#4
Missing my
Nothing new.
I still think these companies will market to us enthusiasts. Hell i am impressed they can make such heavy cars still handle so well. People used to think it couldnt be done to have a 4200lbs car that can do 8min around the ring.
Plus blame the general public. These days it seems "cool" to get the best MPG. I swear people brag about it more than actual performance figures. Yet these will be the same people you see flying around town barely getting anywhere near they claim. They the ones who drive the market in this direction to save fuel.
Its a challenge but im being optimist about it. If all else fails then ill stick with my 16mpg hog.
I still think these companies will market to us enthusiasts. Hell i am impressed they can make such heavy cars still handle so well. People used to think it couldnt be done to have a 4200lbs car that can do 8min around the ring.
Plus blame the general public. These days it seems "cool" to get the best MPG. I swear people brag about it more than actual performance figures. Yet these will be the same people you see flying around town barely getting anywhere near they claim. They the ones who drive the market in this direction to save fuel.
Its a challenge but im being optimist about it. If all else fails then ill stick with my 16mpg hog.
As for the high-mpg cool factor, it's called "hypermiling". Shittiest hobby in the world, if you ask me! Although, at 100 miles a day for a commute, mpg is somewhat of a factor for me!
01-29-2011, 10:15 PM
#5
Nothing new.
I still think these companies will market to us enthusiasts. Hell i am impressed they can make such heavy cars still handle so well. People used to think it couldnt be done to have a 4200lbs car that can do 8min around the ring.
Plus blame the general public. These days it seems "cool" to get the best MPG. I swear people brag about it more than actual performance figures. Yet these will be the same people you see flying around town barely getting anywhere near they claim. They the ones who drive the market in this direction to save fuel.
Its a challenge but im being optimist about it. If all else fails then ill stick with my 16mpg hog.
I still think these companies will market to us enthusiasts. Hell i am impressed they can make such heavy cars still handle so well. People used to think it couldnt be done to have a 4200lbs car that can do 8min around the ring.
Plus blame the general public. These days it seems "cool" to get the best MPG. I swear people brag about it more than actual performance figures. Yet these will be the same people you see flying around town barely getting anywhere near they claim. They the ones who drive the market in this direction to save fuel.
Its a challenge but im being optimist about it. If all else fails then ill stick with my 16mpg hog.
I agree. Nothing new. Journalists and "experts" have been forecasting the death of the automobile, and certainly automobiles considered "fun", for decades now. I've heard it all. The death of the V8. The use of unleaded fuels. The interest in safety standards. The pursuit of fuel mileage. The transfer from rear to front wheel drive. Each of these supposed signs of the automotive apocalypse have been pushed to the forefront by various naysayerers one time or another. Although cars of a particular period will always invoke warm feelings by those that owned them at that time, I think most would agree that today's automobile is far more entertaining than those past. And they're safer, more reliable, better constructed, and more efficient than those produced earlier. We happen to be living in a golden age at the moment, where manufacturers are intent of pushing high horsepower vehicles in the attempt that we will find them attractive.
Alternative fuels, electrically driven vehicles, and fuel mileage targets are all fine in my book. As long as enthusiasts want particular vehicles, then there will always be various manufacturers will to build such vehicles. Oh sure there will be dry periods, but they are always followed by periods of enthusiasm.
Terry
01-29-2011, 10:49 PM
#6
I just hope they don't kill off affordable V8-powered cars and manual transmissions. I certainly won't complain about this new wave of efficient cars since for a daily driver I want a comfortable, reliable, affordable-in-every-way car and that includes getting good MPGs.
I don't mind hybrids, electric vehicles and so forth for the most part. I think the more manufacturers test out alternative fuels, the faster they'll find the best one and the more it can be refined. I still think gas-powered cars will be around for a good amount of time... but it'll be kind of sad when I can't buy an affordable, newer car with a big torque-y V8 that shakes the ground even at idle. You just can't get that in an electric car, sorry. I am of the opinion that how a car sounds is just as important as how it looks or performs.
I really like dual-clutch transmissions, and I think they're a great successor to automatic transmissions. It's still going to be hard for me to take an "automatic" car over a 3-pedal manual though.
I don't mind hybrids, electric vehicles and so forth for the most part. I think the more manufacturers test out alternative fuels, the faster they'll find the best one and the more it can be refined. I still think gas-powered cars will be around for a good amount of time... but it'll be kind of sad when I can't buy an affordable, newer car with a big torque-y V8 that shakes the ground even at idle. You just can't get that in an electric car, sorry. I am of the opinion that how a car sounds is just as important as how it looks or performs.
I really like dual-clutch transmissions, and I think they're a great successor to automatic transmissions. It's still going to be hard for me to take an "automatic" car over a 3-pedal manual though.
01-29-2011, 11:15 PM
#7
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
I agree the info is not new. I was just happy to see my opinion on enthusiast cars (as we now know them) validated by someone else. My 15 mpg hog will be staying with me for a while....even if I have to daily my S2000 during warm weather to save the coming $4 or $5 gas (my current plan...I own my S2000 outright so not expensive for me).
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01-29-2011, 11:28 PM
#8
Your Friendly Canadian
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Well the Ariel Atom is still being produced, so I think we've got a while before this turns into a serious problem.
FWIW, electric cars can be fun. Look at Tesla, isn't that what they're trying to do? Make fun electric cars? We should try to embrace new technologies and new cars, because they can be fun, if not in the conventional way.
But I don't think they're around for most of us. Tesla's cars are in the $100,000 range. I think fun cars will be around forever. They just may end up being less attainable, as daily-driver cars become fatter and more fuel-efficient. Safety standards will only go up, and fuel-economy standards will only become stricter. This means cars will definetely get heavier, and might not get much more powerful.
I think for the most part, the horsepower wars of the mid-late 2000s are pretty much over, and we're peaking. There's a new crash rating system out, and 2016 isn't a long time at all when it comes to car development.
I think it's hard to speculate on whether or not "fun cars are doomed". It'll certainly be interesting to see how the next generation of cars become. But just in case, I'm saving up for that Atom.
FWIW, electric cars can be fun. Look at Tesla, isn't that what they're trying to do? Make fun electric cars? We should try to embrace new technologies and new cars, because they can be fun, if not in the conventional way.
But I don't think they're around for most of us. Tesla's cars are in the $100,000 range. I think fun cars will be around forever. They just may end up being less attainable, as daily-driver cars become fatter and more fuel-efficient. Safety standards will only go up, and fuel-economy standards will only become stricter. This means cars will definetely get heavier, and might not get much more powerful.
I think for the most part, the horsepower wars of the mid-late 2000s are pretty much over, and we're peaking. There's a new crash rating system out, and 2016 isn't a long time at all when it comes to car development.
I think it's hard to speculate on whether or not "fun cars are doomed". It'll certainly be interesting to see how the next generation of cars become. But just in case, I'm saving up for that Atom.
01-29-2011, 11:43 PM
#9
Punk Rocker
Interesting question considering we are living in a veritable golden age of the IC automobile right now. Didn't everyone say that fun cars were dead in the late seventies/early eighties when emissions regulations caused 150hp V8's and horrible turbos/diesels? But look at now. We have 550hp GT500's and 556hp CTSV's and 414hp M3's and so on. Hell, a $29k Mustang has a 412hp V8. Compare that to the old five-point-oh! Car makers will find ways around these stupid regulations like they always have. Plus, socialist morons like Obama will not always be in power. CAFE standards can always be changed if enough pressure is brought to bear. The key is getting rid of all of these car-haters and filling the EPA with "realists" who understand that there is NO energy replacement for gasoline now, nor will there be anytime soon.....
01-30-2011, 12:08 AM
#10
Well the Ariel Atom is still being produced, so I think we've got a while before this turns into a serious problem.
FWIW, electric cars can be fun. Look at Tesla, isn't that what they're trying to do? Make fun electric cars? We should try to embrace new technologies and new cars, because they can be fun, if not in the conventional way.
But I don't think they're around for most of us. Tesla's cars are in the $100,000 range. I think fun cars will be around forever. They just may end up being less attainable, as daily-driver cars become fatter and more fuel-efficient. Safety standards will only go up, and fuel-economy standards will only become stricter. This means cars will definetely get heavier, and might not get much more powerful.
I think for the most part, the horsepower wars of the mid-late 2000s are pretty much over, and we're peaking. There's a new crash rating system out, and 2016 isn't a long time at all when it comes to car development.
I think it's hard to speculate on whether or not "fun cars are doomed". It'll certainly be interesting to see how the next generation of cars become. But just in case, I'm saving up for that Atom.
FWIW, electric cars can be fun. Look at Tesla, isn't that what they're trying to do? Make fun electric cars? We should try to embrace new technologies and new cars, because they can be fun, if not in the conventional way.
But I don't think they're around for most of us. Tesla's cars are in the $100,000 range. I think fun cars will be around forever. They just may end up being less attainable, as daily-driver cars become fatter and more fuel-efficient. Safety standards will only go up, and fuel-economy standards will only become stricter. This means cars will definetely get heavier, and might not get much more powerful.
I think for the most part, the horsepower wars of the mid-late 2000s are pretty much over, and we're peaking. There's a new crash rating system out, and 2016 isn't a long time at all when it comes to car development.
I think it's hard to speculate on whether or not "fun cars are doomed". It'll certainly be interesting to see how the next generation of cars become. But just in case, I'm saving up for that Atom.
Interesting question considering we are living in a veritable golden age of the IC automobile right now. Didn't everyone say that fun cars were dead in the late seventies/early eighties when emissions regulations caused 150hp V8's and horrible turbos/diesels? But look at now. We have 550hp GT500's and 556hp CTSV's and 414hp M3's and so on. Hell, a $29k Mustang has a 412hp V8. Compare that to the old five-point-oh! Car makers will find ways around these stupid regulations like they always have. Plus, socialist morons like Obama will not always be in power. CAFE standards can always be changed if enough pressure is brought to bear. The key is getting rid of all of these car-haters and filling the EPA with "realists" who understand that there is NO energy replacement for gasoline now, nor will there be anytime soon.....
, and as far as making more power, i think some of it has peaked, with FI and computer control, compared to carbs, but they will be able to squeeze more power out of motors in the long run (just might come with a $$$ though) (but i think faster computers will come into play, with more precise control though, for that last bit of performance/emisssions)and i think forced induction, with turbos mainly, is the way we are mainly going to see the manufactures go as far as producing that power, and maintaining fuel economy (even though it goes to shit once you boost
)along with possibly full electronic valves one day, but that is still probably a good 10 years out at least though
as far as hybrids, there are some vehicles that are well suited for that, but fossil fuels will still be at the core of it though
(and electric vehicles, not good if you really like to drive a bit, too long to charge with current technology; maybe make a add-on generator, but again fossil fuels)
01-30-2011, 12:29 AM
#11
Suzuka Master
Its funny how every prius driver I see drives without mpg in mind. They always accelerate quickly off of lights driving 80+mph on the freeway.
I'd like to know what mpg these guys are pulling, probably not much more than 30.
I'd like to know what mpg these guys are pulling, probably not much more than 30.
01-30-2011, 12:31 AM
#12
Suzuka Master
As the hp wars go I'm not sure. Only time will tell , but if BMW brings their new I4 turbo engine here and puts it in the 328i. Audi, Lexus, Mercedes, and pretty much every competitor that made low 200 hp will need a boost. As for the small car segment, it may be over.
01-30-2011, 02:05 AM
#13
Debbie-downer here, big HP sedans??, enjoy it now. When gas gets to $5 a gallon and keeps going up, the associated problems with our oil driven food/goods delivery system will make your milk about the same price. That was our plan with the purchase of a 3.7ltr. This is our last hoorah, and I plan on enjoying it all the way to 7,000 rpms and then selling it for scrap in 10 years to pay for some chickens.
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01-30-2011, 04:24 AM
#14
Evil Mazda Driver
I don't see it this way, to be quite honest with you. All these alternative fuel vehicles will be the savior of the internal combustion engine, just as the car was the savior for the horse. The government can try as they might to legislate fun, fast cars out of our lives with increasingly ludicrous fuel economy standards but the truth remains the public will buy them so long as they are offered.
01-30-2011, 07:17 AM
#15
AZ Community Team
I agree. Nothing new. Journalists and "experts" have been forecasting the death of the automobile, and certainly automobiles considered "fun", for decades now. I've heard it all. The death of the V8. The use of unleaded fuels. The interest in safety standards. The pursuit of fuel mileage. The transfer from rear to front wheel drive. Each of these supposed signs of the automotive apocalypse have been pushed to the forefront by various naysayerers one time or another. Although cars of a particular period will always invoke warm feelings by those that owned them at that time, I think most would agree that today's automobile is far more entertaining than those past. And they're safer, more reliable, better constructed, and more efficient than those produced earlier. We happen to be living in a golden age at the moment, where manufacturers are intent of pushing high horsepower vehicles in the attempt that we will find them attractive.
Alternative fuels, electrically driven vehicles, and fuel mileage targets are all fine in my book. As long as enthusiasts want particular vehicles, then there will always be various manufacturers will to build such vehicles. Oh sure there will be dry periods, but they are always followed by periods of enthusiasm.
Terry
Alternative fuels, electrically driven vehicles, and fuel mileage targets are all fine in my book. As long as enthusiasts want particular vehicles, then there will always be various manufacturers will to build such vehicles. Oh sure there will be dry periods, but they are always followed by periods of enthusiasm.
Terry
agree. Another thing that never ceases to amaze me about modern cars is how much more reliable and easier to maintain. My wife's Pilot has 177K miles and I've yet to replace the CV joint boots or any part of the exhaust. Brake pads lasted ~80K miles. In the old days Honda CV boots lasted maybe 60-80K miles and exhasut may 100K miles. Beside fluid changes, most cars these days are far cheaper to maintain than the old days. When the last time you heard someone say I needed a ring job on a modern car. When I was growing up it seemed like at ~100K miles a new set of rings or valve seals/guides were needed.
Getting back to the fun aspect, I agree that it goes in waves.
Think of the good Nissan sports cars
good 240/260/280Z
bad 280ZX 300ZX 1G
better 300ZX 2G
good 350Z 370Z
Vette
Good 1G 2G
Bad 3G
Better 4G
Good 5G 6G
Ferrari another good/bad/good wave
good 309/328 GTS/GTB
bad F348/F355
good F360
great F430/F458
I view Honda's current styling in the same fashion, eventually it will get back to nice styling
Last edited by Legend2TL; 01-30-2011 at 07:19 AM.
01-30-2011, 08:37 AM
#16
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Great discussion!
Answering a couple of points above:
a) Obama is NOT a socialist, he is a corporatist who pulled the wool over everyone's eyes. Brilliant politician for pulling that trick IMO, though. Anyhoo, let's keep politics out of this as much as possible please. I do recognize the point that who's in power can affect CAFE regulations, and it's an excellent point.
b) People will find ways to mod their electric and hybrid cars to make them go faster. Hell, there are already modded CR-Zs out there.....did you see the CR-Zs at SEMA?
c) The attainability of high-hp or super-fast fun cars will be an issue in the future, I believe. Who's got $100k to pay for a Tesla? I don't, and a car payment that high is not acceptable for my long-term savings plan. This brings up another issue: how to define a "fun" car? Is a low-hp car like a Miata or S2000 as fun as a Mustang or a CTS-V or a Camaro SS? "Yes", and the Miata and S2000 get great mileage....I get 30 mpg in my S2000 with the top up and when I shift at 3k rpm.
Answering a couple of points above:
a) Obama is NOT a socialist, he is a corporatist who pulled the wool over everyone's eyes. Brilliant politician for pulling that trick IMO, though. Anyhoo, let's keep politics out of this as much as possible please. I do recognize the point that who's in power can affect CAFE regulations, and it's an excellent point.
b) People will find ways to mod their electric and hybrid cars to make them go faster. Hell, there are already modded CR-Zs out there.....did you see the CR-Zs at SEMA?
c) The attainability of high-hp or super-fast fun cars will be an issue in the future, I believe. Who's got $100k to pay for a Tesla? I don't, and a car payment that high is not acceptable for my long-term savings plan. This brings up another issue: how to define a "fun" car? Is a low-hp car like a Miata or S2000 as fun as a Mustang or a CTS-V or a Camaro SS? "Yes", and the Miata and S2000 get great mileage....I get 30 mpg in my S2000 with the top up and when I shift at 3k rpm.
01-30-2011, 09:27 AM
#17
you could already see the doom of fun cars just by looking at the availability of MT vehicles that are still produced... call me old fashioned, but to me a driver's car has always been good ol 3-pedal action... add in the combo of a RWD+MT, those are pretty far and few nowadays...
i agree that unfortunately with the 'green' movement, it seems that marketing is all about the MPG... but i give it up to the car manufacturers... they have been able to keep up... i mean an LS3 6.3L V8 that can get as good of MPG as my corolla is pretty impressive...
i agree that unfortunately with the 'green' movement, it seems that marketing is all about the MPG... but i give it up to the car manufacturers... they have been able to keep up... i mean an LS3 6.3L V8 that can get as good of MPG as my corolla is pretty impressive...
01-30-2011, 10:33 AM
#18
Great discussion!
Answering a couple of points above:
a) Obama is NOT a socialist, he is a corporatist who pulled the wool over everyone's eyes. Brilliant politician for pulling that trick IMO, though. Anyhoo, let's keep politics out of this as much as possible please. I do recognize the point that who's in power can affect CAFE regulations, and it's an excellent point.
b) People will find ways to mod their electric and hybrid cars to make them go faster. Hell, there are already modded CR-Zs out there.....did you see the CR-Zs at SEMA?
c) The attainability of high-hp or super-fast fun cars will be an issue in the future, I believe. Who's got $100k to pay for a Tesla? I don't, and a car payment that high is not acceptable for my long-term savings plan. This brings up another issue: how to define a "fun" car? Is a low-hp car like a Miata or S2000 as fun as a Mustang or a CTS-V or a Camaro SS? "Yes", and the Miata and S2000 get great mileage....I get 30 mpg in my S2000 with the top up and when I shift at 3k rpm.
Answering a couple of points above:
a) Obama is NOT a socialist, he is a corporatist who pulled the wool over everyone's eyes. Brilliant politician for pulling that trick IMO, though. Anyhoo, let's keep politics out of this as much as possible please. I do recognize the point that who's in power can affect CAFE regulations, and it's an excellent point.
b) People will find ways to mod their electric and hybrid cars to make them go faster. Hell, there are already modded CR-Zs out there.....did you see the CR-Zs at SEMA?
c) The attainability of high-hp or super-fast fun cars will be an issue in the future, I believe. Who's got $100k to pay for a Tesla? I don't, and a car payment that high is not acceptable for my long-term savings plan. This brings up another issue: how to define a "fun" car? Is a low-hp car like a Miata or S2000 as fun as a Mustang or a CTS-V or a Camaro SS? "Yes", and the Miata and S2000 get great mileage....I get 30 mpg in my S2000 with the top up and when I shift at 3k rpm.
(the warranty might be out the window for the drivetrain, but that is another story/thread though)you could already see the doom of fun cars just by looking at the availability of MT vehicles that are still produced... call me old fashioned, but to me a driver's car has always been good ol 3-pedal action... add in the combo of a RWD+MT, those are pretty far and few nowadays...
i agree that unfortunately with the 'green' movement, it seems that marketing is all about the MPG... but i give it up to the car manufacturers... they have been able to keep up... i mean an LS3 6.3L V8 that can get as good of MPG as my corolla is pretty impressive...
i agree that unfortunately with the 'green' movement, it seems that marketing is all about the MPG... but i give it up to the car manufacturers... they have been able to keep up... i mean an LS3 6.3L V8 that can get as good of MPG as my corolla is pretty impressive...
so the majority of people will want an auto, and manufactures will generally follow with what the bigger sale base wants
01-30-2011, 11:05 AM
#19
I don't see it this way, to be quite honest with you. All these alternative fuel vehicles will be the savior of the internal combustion engine, just as the car was the savior for the horse. The government can try as they might to legislate fun, fast cars out of our lives with increasingly ludicrous fuel economy standards but the truth remains the public will buy them so long as they are offered.
Great discussion!
Answering a couple of points above:
a) Obama is NOT a socialist, he is a corporatist who pulled the wool over everyone's eyes. Brilliant politician for pulling that trick IMO, though. Anyhoo, let's keep politics out of this as much as possible please. I do recognize the point that who's in power can affect CAFE regulations, and it's an excellent point.
b) People will find ways to mod their electric and hybrid cars to make them go faster. Hell, there are already modded CR-Zs out there.....did you see the CR-Zs at SEMA?
c) The attainability of high-hp or super-fast fun cars will be an issue in the future, I believe. Who's got $100k to pay for a Tesla? I don't, and a car payment that high is not acceptable for my long-term savings plan. This brings up another issue: how to define a "fun" car? Is a low-hp car like a Miata or S2000 as fun as a Mustang or a CTS-V or a Camaro SS? "Yes", and the Miata and S2000 get great mileage....I get 30 mpg in my S2000 with the top up and when I shift at 3k rpm.
Answering a couple of points above:
a) Obama is NOT a socialist, he is a corporatist who pulled the wool over everyone's eyes. Brilliant politician for pulling that trick IMO, though. Anyhoo, let's keep politics out of this as much as possible please. I do recognize the point that who's in power can affect CAFE regulations, and it's an excellent point.
b) People will find ways to mod their electric and hybrid cars to make them go faster. Hell, there are already modded CR-Zs out there.....did you see the CR-Zs at SEMA?
c) The attainability of high-hp or super-fast fun cars will be an issue in the future, I believe. Who's got $100k to pay for a Tesla? I don't, and a car payment that high is not acceptable for my long-term savings plan. This brings up another issue: how to define a "fun" car? Is a low-hp car like a Miata or S2000 as fun as a Mustang or a CTS-V or a Camaro SS? "Yes", and the Miata and S2000 get great mileage....I get 30 mpg in my S2000 with the top up and when I shift at 3k rpm.
b.) People will be too worried about affordable food and water to give a shit about their cars(just keeping your family safe will be a full time job).
c.) You're going to need something more secure than a convertable.
I'm buying 6 acres in Helvetia where I can farm my own food and cut the necks off my own meat.
you could already see the doom of fun cars just by looking at the availability of MT vehicles that are still produced... call me old fashioned, but to me a driver's car has always been good ol 3-pedal action... add in the combo of a RWD+MT, those are pretty far and few nowadays...
i agree that unfortunately with the 'green' movement, it seems that marketing is all about the MPG... but i give it up to the car manufacturers... they have been able to keep up... i mean an LS3 6.3L V8 that can get as good of MPG as my corolla is pretty impressive...
i agree that unfortunately with the 'green' movement, it seems that marketing is all about the MPG... but i give it up to the car manufacturers... they have been able to keep up... i mean an LS3 6.3L V8 that can get as good of MPG as my corolla is pretty impressive...
Your freindly paranoid conspiracy theorist.
01-30-2011, 12:09 PM
#21
They are not doomed at all, One of the most fun cars out there is the Mazda2. I've driven plenty of higher priced cars and the 2 can beat it in terms of fun. And at 1.5 liters and mpg friendly its here to stay.
01-30-2011, 12:44 PM
#22
Denial like this ^ is part of the problem. But I understand because it is human nature to be short sighted. Stay in denial, or start educating yourself so that if the shit does hit the fan you can help your family get through what looks like will be a tough time. Start by reading the Hirsch report.
"World oil demand is
forecast to grow by 50
percent by 2025."forecast to grow by 50
This report came out in 2005, the world reached peak oil production in 2006 and is now in decline. Yet world demand is growing. India and China are currently surpassing the United States in oil consumption. Per capita production simply cannot be sustained due to the rapid growth (economic or otherwise) in the world. Take a look for yourself, I’m not suggesting that everyone go hide in the woods with a gun, I’m saying that you should enjoy what you have right now and plan for the future so that you and your family will not suffer from our greed of today.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
http://www.acus.org/docs/051007-Hirs...Production.pdf
Last edited by Mr Marco; 01-30-2011 at 12:55 PM.
01-30-2011, 04:54 PM
#23
The Third Ball
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But wait there is more.
Hey Crazy mod, what is up with "friesm2000" avatar? Isn't that in violation of the forum rules and guidelines:
Threads and Posts
Threads and posts that fall into the following categories will be prohibited.
Avatars that fall into the following categories will be prohibited.
Funny how some guidelines get overlooked here on AZ
Hey Crazy mod, what is up with "friesm2000" avatar? Isn't that in violation of the forum rules and guidelines:
Not Work Safe Rules and Guidelines
Threads and Posts
Threads and posts that fall into the following categories will be prohibited.
- <LI itxtHarvested="1" itxtAssessment="{hasWeightsets:true,isWeightset:fa lse,hasHooknodes:true,isHooknode:false,hasContentn odes:true,isContentnode:false,hasExcludenodes:true ,isExcludenode:false,hasUnbreaknodes:true,isUnbrea knode:false,hasBreaknodes:true,isBreaknode:false,n odeElem:true,nodeAttr:false,nodeText:false}">Sexua lly explicit writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal. <LI itxtHarvested="1" itxtAssessment="{hasWeightsets:true,isWeightset:fa lse,hasHooknodes:true,isHooknode:false,hasContentn odes:true,isContentnode:false,hasExcludenodes:true ,isExcludenode:false,hasUnbreaknodes:true,isUnbrea knode:false,hasBreaknodes:true,isBreaknode:false,n odeElem:true,nodeAttr:false,nodeText:false}">Image ry containing nudity (Full or partial) and/or acts of a sexual nature.
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Avatars that fall into the following categories will be prohibited.
- <LI itxtHarvested="1" itxtAssessment="{hasWeightsets:true,isWeightset:fa lse,hasHooknodes:true,isHooknode:false,hasContentn odes:true,isContentnode:false,hasExcludenodes:true ,isExcludenode:false,hasUnbreaknodes:true,isUnbrea knode:false,hasBreaknodes:true,isBreaknode:false,n odeElem:true,nodeAttr:false,nodeText:false}">Conta ining nudity (Full or partial) and/or acts of a sexual nature. <LI itxtHarvested="1" itxtAssessment="{hasWeightsets:true,isWeightset:fa lse,hasHooknodes:true,isHooknode:false,hasContentn odes:true,isContentnode:false,hasExcludenodes:true ,isExcludenode:false,hasUnbreaknodes:true,isUnbrea knode:false,hasBreaknodes:true,isBreaknode:false,n odeElem:true,nodeAttr:false,nodeText:false}">Figures in a sexually suggestive position or movement (Clothed or not). <LI itxtHarvested="1" itxtAssessment="{hasWeightsets:true,isWeightset:fa lse,hasHooknodes:true,isHooknode:false,hasContentn odes:true,isContentnode:false,hasExcludenodes:true ,isExcludenode:false,hasUnbreaknodes:true,isUnbrea knode:false,hasBreaknodes:true,isBreaknode:false,n odeElem:true,nodeAttr:false,nodeText:false}">Image ry showing private parts through clothing (Wet T-Shirts, etc).
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Funny how some guidelines get overlooked here on AZ
01-30-2011, 05:06 PM
#24
This ^ from someone who has 30,000 posts? That is like 10 a day. Ironic
01-30-2011, 05:16 PM
#25
The Third Ball
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01-30-2011, 06:54 PM
#27
A good post on 3GTL that should explain it better:
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/attention-new-tl-owners%7E-oh-wth-attention-all-tl-owners-806154/
Last edited by Mr Marco; 01-30-2011 at 07:05 PM.
01-30-2011, 08:47 PM
#29
Your Friendly Canadian
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On-topic poster to the rescue!seems to kinda go in cycles though, and i think horse power wars will eventually be back
, and as far as making more power, i think some of it has peaked, with FI and computer control, compared to carbs, but they will be able to squeeze more power out of motors in the long run (just might come with a $$$ though) (but i think faster computers will come into play, with more precise control though, for that last bit of performance/emisssions)
and i think forced induction, with turbos mainly, is the way we are mainly going to see the manufactures go as far as producing that power, and maintaining fuel economy (even though it goes to shit once you boost )
along with possibly full electronic valves one day, but that is still probably a good 10 years out at least though
as far as hybrids, there are some vehicles that are well suited for that, but fossil fuels will still be at the core of it though
(and electric vehicles, not good if you really like to drive a bit, too long to charge with current technology; maybe make a add-on generator, but again fossil fuels)
, and as far as making more power, i think some of it has peaked, with FI and computer control, compared to carbs, but they will be able to squeeze more power out of motors in the long run (just might come with a $$$ though) (but i think faster computers will come into play, with more precise control though, for that last bit of performance/emisssions)and i think forced induction, with turbos mainly, is the way we are mainly going to see the manufactures go as far as producing that power, and maintaining fuel economy (even though it goes to shit once you boost
)along with possibly full electronic valves one day, but that is still probably a good 10 years out at least though
as far as hybrids, there are some vehicles that are well suited for that, but fossil fuels will still be at the core of it though
(and electric vehicles, not good if you really like to drive a bit, too long to charge with current technology; maybe make a add-on generator, but again fossil fuels)
I think you're right, FI is going to become a more prominent technology in fuel-economic cars, but there are tons of other things coming as well. Direct injection, EVs, and maybe even diesel.
Efficiency will become the name of the game, at the expense of our wallets. I dunno about fossil fuels. I hate eco-friendly car-scapegoaters as much as the next guy, but they're right when they say fossil fuels are non-renewables. We can't rely on them forever. When will they run out?
As the hp wars go I'm not sure. Only time will tell , but if BMW brings their new I4 turbo engine here and puts it in the 328i. Audi, Lexus, Mercedes, and pretty much every competitor that made low 200 hp will need a boost. As for the small car segment, it may be over.
agree. Another thing that never ceases to amaze me about modern cars is how much more reliable and easier to maintain. My wife's Pilot has 177K miles and I've yet to replace the CV joint boots or any part of the exhaust. Brake pads lasted ~80K miles. In the old days Honda CV boots lasted maybe 60-80K miles and exhasut may 100K miles. Beside fluid changes, most cars these days are far cheaper to maintain than the old days. When the last time you heard someone say I needed a ring job on a modern car. When I was growing up it seemed like at ~100K miles a new set of rings or valve seals/guides were needed.
c) The attainability of high-hp or super-fast fun cars will be an issue in the future, I believe. Who's got $100k to pay for a Tesla? I don't, and a car payment that high is not acceptable for my long-term savings plan. This brings up another issue: how to define a "fun" car? Is a low-hp car like a Miata or S2000 as fun as a Mustang or a CTS-V or a Camaro SS? "Yes", and the Miata and S2000 get great mileage....I get 30 mpg in my S2000 with the top up and when I shift at 3k rpm.
There will always be fun cars, just a different type of fun. We won't need V8s, RWD, heck we might not even need manual transmissions to have fun. They're just the avenues we use today. But like friesm said, forced induction will probably become a staple of tomorrow's automotive landscape, and who doesn't enjoy the rush of a motor coming on boost, economy or not? Many of us are Honda enthusiasts, a company that's only produced two RWD cars, and no V8s. Motorcycle enthusiasts get even more of a thrill with automated manuals, and engines a fraction of the size of ours.
If today's world can produce such a monstrosity as the BMW X6 M, and have it complimented for its handling, pretty much anything is possible.
EVs can produce maximum torque from 0 rpm and can rev into the tens of thousands of rpm. All the electric gimmetry they come with is pretty cool too.
My point is, we don't need a checklist of features on a car for it to be considered fun. There will always be fun cars. Those cars will just please us in different ways.
01-30-2011, 08:58 PM
#30
True, but it seems like 2016 will bring the second malaise era. If that's true, it's gonna be a heck of a long time before we get our power wars back, hopefully not so long that gasoline will have skyrocketed beyond affordability.
I think you're right, FI is going to become a more prominent technology in fuel-economic cars, but there are tons of other things coming as well. Direct injection, EVs, and maybe even diesel. Efficiency will become the name of the game, at the expense of our wallets.
I dunno about fossil fuels. I hate eco-friendly car-scapegoaters as much as the next guy, but they're right when they say fossil fuels are non-renewables. We can't rely on them forever. When will they run out?
Many of us are Honda enthusiasts, a company that's only produced two RWD cars,
I think you're right, FI is going to become a more prominent technology in fuel-economic cars, but there are tons of other things coming as well. Direct injection, EVs, and maybe even diesel.
Efficiency will become the name of the game, at the expense of our wallets. I dunno about fossil fuels. I hate eco-friendly car-scapegoaters as much as the next guy, but they're right when they say fossil fuels are non-renewables. We can't rely on them forever. When will they run out?
Many of us are Honda enthusiasts, a company that's only produced two RWD cars,
direct injection, that too
ev's, for some people they are perfect for, especially people who drive to work, park, and drive home, then it stays plugged in all night, but for others not so much (btw yes power plants are "more efficient" but all it does is move the pollution somewhere else [till we get more renewable electricity though])
and YES technologies cost $$$, so wallets are going to hurt more so
and fossil fuels, more will be found, but no idea of how much though (and become harder to retrieve, and transport, and such, so more $$$)
and as far as only TWO RWD cars, try going further back in time... I know there are a couple more, but no where close to being well known though (S200 comes to mind, not the S2000/S2K)
01-30-2011, 09:36 PM
#31
Punk Rocker
Interestingly I read a post on e90post.com that was about companies that have successfully begun to "manufacture" gasoline (or crude). Technology may yet save us if even some of what I have read about synthetic fuels comes to pass.
01-30-2011, 10:40 PM
#33
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Linky please?
01-31-2011, 06:26 AM
#34
AZ Community Team
Ehh, I'd have to disagree. Cars are getting much more complicated, meaning more expensive to repair. I recently spent $100 on a spark plug change for a 4-cylinder car. I'm about to spend another $50 to change out synthetic engine oil. LED board lights are much more expensive to fix than just swapping out a bulb yourself. HIDs are even worse. Technology is great, but it's pretty finicky.
I agree with you that today's cars are more expensive to repair. Electronics have really increased the cost of repairing and replacing components. HID's and LED's are great but they do cost more despite all their other advantages.
Here's a LED story for expensive electronics. My father-in-law had a 2006 Cadillac DTS and one of the rear LED light assemblies went out. It was one module that contained all the LED's, circuit board, and electronics. Covered under warrenty but it was over $200 for the part alone. He asked me what was so wrong with a 1034 or 1157 bulb? The kind you could buy at a Walmart for $2 and replace in 5 minutes.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 01-31-2011 at 06:32 AM.
01-31-2011, 09:37 AM
#36
Punk Rocker
Obviously some of this may be too good to be true but I believe that technology is unpredictable and can shoot off in unexpected directions, just when everybody thinks they "know" exactly whats coming down the line....
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1871149/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1871149/
01-31-2011, 09:35 PM
#37
Evil Mazda Driver
Obviously some of this may be too good to be true but I believe that technology is unpredictable and can shoot off in unexpected directions, just when everybody thinks they "know" exactly whats coming down the line....
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1871149/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1871149/
01-31-2011, 10:52 PM
#38
Unfortunately the populations interest has turned from looking for a fun ride into looking for a cheaper and more efficient ride. Its sad, especially since it seems that most manufacturers are giving into this trend as well. Of course the economy has something to do with it.
But the way I see it, we all drive everyday. To work, to school, to the grocery store, to friends/family etc. Its the one thing that we ALL have in common as a population. Back in the day, so to speak, even a few years ago nearly every car was different, and that played a role into who people where...Your car describes our personalities, to an extent at least.
With the new era of electric cars, alternative fuels, and stripping of the gasoline burning, exhaust emitting cars I see this being completely different...I think that a great percentage of people are going to eventually give into this "green" trend, and in the end it is going to make the world a little bit more boring.
But hey, thats just me thinking...Thats where my mind is at on alternative fuel sources, electric cars and things of the sort.
01-31-2011, 11:32 PM
#39
Registered but harmless
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Although fuel efficiency is not the highest priority, it is a positive factor I look at within a class of cars under consideration.
For example, the TL had better MPG than the G35 and was a point in favor of the TL before I got it.
If I were comparing a Ferrari to a Lambo, mileage would be a consideration after driving dynamics, ergonomics, interior finish and sound isolation. If everything else was equal, the MPG would be the deciding factor.
Fun cars will still be made-- they can be like Miatas, Elises and Boxsters or even electrics and hybrids; they don't necessarily have to be gas guzzlers.
For example, the TL had better MPG than the G35 and was a point in favor of the TL before I got it.
If I were comparing a Ferrari to a Lambo, mileage would be a consideration after driving dynamics, ergonomics, interior finish and sound isolation. If everything else was equal, the MPG would be the deciding factor.
Fun cars will still be made-- they can be like Miatas, Elises and Boxsters or even electrics and hybrids; they don't necessarily have to be gas guzzlers.
01-31-2011, 11:37 PM
#40
Although fuel efficiency is not the highest priority, it is a positive factor I look at within a class of cars under consideration.
For example, the TL had better MPG than the G35 and was a point in favor of the TL before I got it.
If I were comparing a Ferrari to a Lambo, mileage would be a consideration after driving dynamics, ergonomics, interior finish and sound isolation. If everything else was equal, the MPG would be the deciding factor.
Fun cars will still be made-- they can be like Miatas, Elises and Boxsters or even electrics and hybrids; they don't necessarily have to be gas guzzlers.
For example, the TL had better MPG than the G35 and was a point in favor of the TL before I got it.
If I were comparing a Ferrari to a Lambo, mileage would be a consideration after driving dynamics, ergonomics, interior finish and sound isolation. If everything else was equal, the MPG would be the deciding factor.
Fun cars will still be made-- they can be like Miatas, Elises and Boxsters or even electrics and hybrids; they don't necessarily have to be gas guzzlers.
what if you have gas/petroleum running through your veins
but yes, sometimes even electric/hybrids can be fun at times, but personally i hate it when the batteries die out on things like remote control cars, and such