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My last euro car was a 2004. Could never mod it because all my $ went into maintenance and replacement parts. A friend of mine lost two transmissions in his 07 BMW. Like anything, there's good and bad, and I don't track this stuff on a regular basis, but pretty sure the euros still haven't moved up the reliability ratings by much in recent years. I've sold cars in the early 2000's and was trained in a Mercedes dealer in Boston. When teaching us how to deal with unpleasant customers, out trainer always said, and I quote "you ever want to see a pissed off customer, just sit in the service dept and wait for a Mercedes customer who's out of warranty". Straight from the horses mouth.
Originally Posted by juniorbean
I'm wondering how much exposure you have had to new cars since your blanket statement seems to be from the early to mid-2000's.
So I wasn't that far off
Our A4 had almost 100k miles before we traded it in for an A6. Traded that for a MB E350 which is now ~2 years out of warranty and has been solid as a rock. Of course if anything goes wrong it may (depending on what it is) cost quite a bit b/c it's Euro... but that's the price of admission. Then again I just dropped ~$1600 on a Ford E350 Box Truck for a full brake job and tune-up... so anything can cost money as it gets older...
Originally Posted by FamilyGuy
I agree on the Caddys. I think they have some of the best looking designs right now. A family member of mine has a 5.7L charger...no thx.
New Charger is nice. Softened up a bit. New Challenger is just money. That Hellcat is amazing. I'd still probably get a C7 Z06 over it, but damn, it's pretty sweet...
edit - OK, you posted your last reply while I was typing this. By tech in American cars you meant mechanical like the solid rear axle until recently. I was more talking gadget stuff (infotainment, etc). Even so a solid rear axle would never stop me from buying a car if all of the other boxes were checked...
Yes, that's where I was coming from. Gadget stuff I don't care much about, just a decent stereo and the usual power seats / windows, memory etc. and a GPS if possible.
Originally Posted by juniorbean
edit 2 - Just read the rest . Check out a Lotus Elise. From your second paragraph, sounds like the car for you. High revving, handles like it's on rails, Toyota powertrain, manual transmission, and looks that snap necks...
Yeah but they're so tiny lol I need a 4 door sedan at this stage in life, parents are getting old and kids will be here soon, but I still can't afford two cars yet (family sedan + sport), so a all in one sport sedan is my best choice. Caddy CTS V I like but they're not cheap and v8s like to drink gas.
I'm ok with a mid-lvl sport sedan like the 3G type s. I can afford to mod it per my liking and increase its performance, and still enjoy Japanese reliability. Seems the choices are fewer and fewer every year though. Acura is lame, Lexus forgot manual transmissions exist, and Infinity mmm don't know, I was never into nissans fish hook lights, and the new infinity Q sedans look ok, maybe a bit too mature (40s 50s) and a bit heavy - not sure here yet.
I've bought new cars before but don't want to take the depreciation anymore, so I'm in the ~3-5 year old used car market, which means I won't be experiencing today's reliabily for a few years. I do hope the euros keep improving. No one else seems to be building as exciting of a car as they do. I just want one that doesn't break or need a sensor every 3-6 months
American eh, still making boats on wheels with decades old tech, and no exterior styling whatsoever. The new vette is as good as it gets, aside from still having a push rod engine.
We're all screwed.
The most uninformed if ignorant stament I've read yet. This was this written? 10-15 years ago?
Not all widths and heights are on edmunds, so not sure how accurate the figures I got on a quick Google search are, but overall you can see the size diffs. I like the size of the mustang. If the challenger and charger were just one notch smaller they would be the hottest things running around. They're a bit too big IMO. I do like the new front end on the 2015 charger much better though.
styling is subjective.. but I sadly have to agree, the muscle of late looks like aircraft carriers on wheels. works for me on the 60-70's models.
but as far as current cars... this is just an awful body shape. (remember, just opinions <3)
it looks like when kids finally start to get their artistic side and doodle on paper.. the first generic shape of a car.
don't get me wrong, the acura line is awful as well... im just commenting on the side discussion.... not to derail.
Last edited by Rockstar21; 01-08-2015 at 02:28 PM.
So what I really wanted trickling down was maybe the whole motor but I see your point
Probably never happen again but BMW's F1 turbo engine, M13 which won the the 1983 WDC used the BMW M10 cast iron block used in the BMW 1G and 2G 3-series. So the little 100HP 320i motor was used in the 650-1400HP+ F1 motor which was pretty amazing considering it was designed in the 60's for low-end BMW's
One of the offshoots of the F1 engine programs at Honda (IIRC BMW and Toyota also did similar) allowed production engineers to rotate through for a year or so on the racing program then back. That way they would gain some experience and knowledge that perhaps would transfer back to production.
There's even reverse tech, Micheal Schumacher's first WDC was won in Benetton B194 F1 car with a Cosworth/Ford V8 that reused traction control firmware from a Euro Ford Escort.
Originally Posted by SamDoe1
Oh cool, the Civic HX uses F1 O2 sensors. Just what I wanted for trickle down engineering from the pinnacle of motorsport.
Because race car?
Cam followers and cam in a 2008 Honda V8 F1 are not that different from a Honda K-series. But if you're expecting pneumatic valves and 19K redlines, forget it.
Cam followers and cam in a 2008 Honda V8 F1 are not that different from a Honda K-series. But if you're expecting pneumatic valves and 19K redlines, forget it.
Yeah but those 19k redline engines are toast by the end of the race, sometimes before the end, lol. Not exactly viable for daily use. Even 10k is pretty damn high.
1. Lexus
2. Mercedes
3. Cadillac
4. Acura
5. Buick
6. Honda
7. Lincoln
8. Toyota
9. Porsche
10. Infinity
So that's what, 5 Japanese, 3 American and 2 European. Euros are still behind.
Audi and VW are well below the industry avg, at #19 and #24. Good luck with the A6.
Mercedes is doing well. Problem is, when something does break, it's one of the most expensive to fix.
Exactly my point. 10-12 years ago Mercedes was nowhere near #2. And Audi is dragged down by the Q7 and A8. The A4 has been a top pick by multiple publications for years now. Even Caddy and the other American brands have jumped up quite a bit over the last decade. Japanese may have half the list now, but a decade or so ago, they owned it, so definitely progress being made around the globe. Even so, being on this list means nothing as far as what the OP's point was. I'd rather have an A6 and be loving the drive and experience versus an Acura where I'd need lane assist b/c I'm dosing off at the wheel b/c it's so boring.
Anyway, as mentioned, we don't own the A6 anymore but when we did, it was great. One small warranty issue and everything else was just maintenance. But the ownership experience was miles ahead of Acura's. Same with the Mercedes... the dealership is like driving up to the Waldorf Astoria so at least if something does break and it will cost a bunch to fix, you feel good about the service
Last edited by juniorbean; 01-08-2015 at 04:34 PM.
Probably never happen again but BMW's F1 turbo engine, M13 which won the the 1983 WDC used the BMW M10 cast iron block used in the BMW 1G and 2G 3-series. So the little 100HP 320i motor was used in the 650-1400HP+ F1 motor which was pretty amazing considering it was designed in the 60's for low-end BMW's
One of the offshoots of the F1 engine programs at Honda (IIRC BMW and Toyota also did similar) allowed production engineers to rotate through for a year or so on the racing program then back. That way they would gain some experience and knowledge that perhaps would transfer back to production.
There's even reverse tech, Micheal Schumacher's first WDC was won in Benetton B194 F1 car with a Cosworth/Ford V8 that reused traction control firmware from a Euro Ford Escort.
]
Well let me clarify. I mean something tangible that's actually a nice piece of engineering. Toyota has the LFA. What does Honda have now? Honda almost created a V10 NSX.
Yup love the hot hatches, esp the Fords, the Focus ST and even the Fiesta ST. Great options to the VW Golf. Like rockstar said, they're in their own category.
Details aside, I was mainly referring to the latest trend here at home, with our main sports cars, the mustangs, camaros, lately charger and challenger, etc,in that we still have old school dragster type sport car blood running around. Nothing wrong with that, I just wish we had more of today's up to date formula of all around performers, and not the same old huge RWD heavy ass cars with loads of torque, solid rear axles and push rod engines, that are really only good for straight aways. I think we could do great things there. Cadillac and Ford seem to be ahead of the pack a bit, but wish we had more, given the large number of brands here at home. Buick seemed to give it a shot lately too, kind of funny considering their typical customer base.
To get back on topic, yes, Honda / Acura is falling asleep lately...wake up guys! The euros still lead the pack in innovation, but often at the cost of reliability.
Yup love the hot hatches, esp the Fords, the Focus ST and even the Fiesta ST. Great options to the VW Golf. Like rockstar said, they're in their own category.
Details aside, I was mainly referring to the latest trend here at home, with our main sports cars, the mustangs, camaros, lately charger and challenger, etc,in that we still have old school dragster type sport car blood running around. Nothing wrong with that, I just wish we had more of today's up to date formula of all around performers, and not the same old huge RWD heavy ass cars with loads of torque, solid rear axles and push rod engines, that are really only good for straight aways. I think we could do great things there. Cadillac and Ford seem to be ahead of the pack a bit, but wish we had more, given the large number of brands here at home. Buick seemed to give it a shot lately too, kind of funny considering their typical customer base.
To get back on topic, yes, Honda / Acura is falling asleep lately...wake up guys! The euros still lead the pack in innovation, but often at the cost of reliability.
I am pretty sure a "pushrod powered RWD Camaro 1LE" would destroy most anything under $75k from any automaker on a track. Of the interior weren't so disgusting, I'd probably own one.
But seriously, I think the new Chevrolet SS sedan is just perfect.
- 6 spd manual or auto
- gorgeous understated looks begging for 20x11 wheels
- magnetic shocks
- LS3 V8 perfect for modding to virtually any level
All it's missing is a blower and 4wd.
Acura has no balls. None.
Build the turbo wide body TLX. Make it trap at 115mph. Restore your pride.
The interior is still hideous (1LE), and it still weighs 3900lbs. I'd take a Mustang instead. The SS's exterior styling just doesn't do it for me. Besides the sexy aggressive front nose, the rest of the car is boring and uninspiring. The corvette is pure hotness, but also pure sports car, so limits you there, you need a 2nd all around / family vehicle. Cadillac CTS / ATS are good looking, haven't really checked out their performance lately though.
What I'd really like to see more of is a mid lvl mid size 4 door sports sedan, 4 or 6 turbo, or high rev high hp 6, *maybe* a small litter hp based v8, a great chassis, tuned suspension, right size brakes, and decent creature comforts / luxury, with a sexy exterior design that continues inside, and a sub 3700lb curb weight (3500lb would be perfect). Variable cam timing, double wishbone / multi-link suspension and a manual trans.
But seriously, I think the new Chevrolet SS sedan is just perfect.
- 6 spd manual or auto
- gorgeous understated looks begging for 20x11 wheels
- magnetic shocks
- LS3 V8 perfect for modding to virtually any level
All it's missing is a blower and 4wd.
And any looks. At all. It's seriously a Malibu. If Chevy had any brains, they would build an actual car worthy of a "four door Corvette", not a rebadged, ugly Holden.
Well let me clarify. I mean something tangible that's actually a nice piece of engineering. Toyota has the LFA. What does Honda have now? Honda almost created a V10 NSX.
...
Now Honda is WIP (work in progress), we'll see how it turns out when the 2G NSX is released this month. Curious to see how it turns out. I was kinda disappointed in the front-engined V10 prototype that reversed the mid-engined V6 origin.
As for the LFA, it was pretty cool Toyota built a CF chassis (even wound their CF filiment), even if it was front engine. Being front engine like the LFA, GT-R, and SLS/SLR is a design compromise to the mid-engine exotics R8/10, 458, MP4-12C/650, Carrera GT, 918. I'm like Gordon Murray in that if a manufacturer is going to all that trouble to make a exotic sports car might as well make it a proper mid-engine.
Originally Posted by d1sturb3d119
Honda has taken a step in the right direction with their bikes though. We can only hope they do something similar with their cars.
And any looks. At all. It's seriously a Malibu. If Chevy had any brains, they would build an actual car worthy of a "four door Corvette", not a rebadged, ugly Holden.
In all seriousness. The body design is pretty good. As I said, on the right wheels with correct stance, the Chevrolet SS is a solid looker. Chevrolet and Honda know how to do do timeless understated style. The SS is such a sweet platform/canvass to work from. 600whp lumpy idle beast awaits.
At least GM listens to enthusiasts. They asked for a 6MT version of the SS. GM delivered. Enthusiasts are asking for a 7MT version of the upcoming 3G CTS-V. The executives gave us hope that with enough noise, it may happen.
U-S-A! U-S-A!
What do we get from HondAcura when enthusiasts beg for even a decent TLX body kit similar to the show car from last year? Or greenlighting the Mugen Legend Max? Crickets.
Acura had been sleeping on the wheel for sometime. Lately all their new products are bland tasteless piece of metal with a parrot's beak. When it is time to replace my CL, I will be seriously looking into a Lexus RC or RC-F.
If Acura was serious about selling to those of us with sporting intentions, the TLX would all be SHAWD, about 340 HP, and have an interior that would make Audi flinch. The body style also needs some work, maybe the beak (not as bad as the 4G), and the lines twords the....
Aw hell, Acura/Honda, go spy on Lexus and learn from them....
Acura is not serious about performance and selling cars to enthusiasts. They are serious about cutting cost and their bottom line. I went to the Acura showroom in West Chester, PA to take a look at the TLX. The gear shift was replaced by idiotic mickey mouse push buttons. Easier to make and less cost in materials.
It's not too late for Acura to reverse ship and at least re-engage the forum leaders, whether we own Acuras or not. *HINT*
Agreed. Perfect example is the NSX. It looks hot. Interior is OK, no numbers yet, but $150-$175k projected price? Ouch. At $100k it would have been on my list for down the road... but now it's not even a consideration.
Of course that could all change since there is some time before it comes out... but at the same time all of the NSX competition will be releasing newer better models as well (R8, GTR, etc) which almost puts it behind the 8-ball before it even launches.
I would have loved to see a game changer, not a follow the pack car...
Acura is not serious about performance and selling cars to enthusiasts. They are serious about cutting cost and their bottom line. I went to the Acura showroom in West Chester, PA to take a look at the TLX. The gear shift was replaced by idiotic mickey mouse push buttons. Easier to make and less cost in materials.
you really think they did that for cost savings? so can you explain to me why they wouldnt save money on the 2.4 tlx by using this same "mickey mouse" electronic gear selector?
Of course that could all change since there is some time before it comes out... but at the same time all of the NSX competition will be releasing newer better models as well (R8, GTR, etc) which almost puts it behind the 8-ball before it even launches.
I would have loved to see a game changer, not a follow the pack car...
I think that is like the chicken or the egg. You will always be the follower, then when your time to new model, you be the game changer. With the 3 hybrid motors, the NSX is doing with advanced engineering.
I think the key is, keeping up the updates. I.e. when your competition brings something better (R8/GTR per your example), does Honda/Acura sit around not update, or do they keep up with competition.
I haven't owned an NSX, but I have owned AP1 and AP2 S2000. Honda/Acura problem has been, they leave the products too long on the market, make it stale, not update, and then at the end they cry "no one buys our sports car, so we kill it."
I am fine with them being a "follower" but keep CONTINUING to follow..instead of getting left behind so far, that you can't even follow in the darkness of the last century.
you really think they did that for cost savings? so can you explain to me why they wouldnt save money on the 2.4 tlx by using this same "mickey mouse" electronic gear selector?
The following assembly work is required to make a shift lever mechanism. A push button panel with electronic "mickey mouse" buttons will replace all of the work below.
Gear shift shaft to machine. Plastic handle to make. Linkages to transmission to make. Shift lever base to machine & check for tolerances. Lubrication to grease the shift mechanism. Inspection of all machined component parts. Mechanical parts to assemble & doesn't shift correctly requiring more hours of inspection, disassembly & rework. All metal parts here requiring heat treatment, surface finish treatment, roughness requirements, hardness requirements & etc. Should I continue?
Last edited by hotclick56; 01-12-2015 at 02:44 PM.
Agreed. Perfect example is the NSX. It looks hot. Interior is OK, no numbers yet, but $150-$175k projected price? Ouch. At $100k it would have been on my list for down the road... but now it's not even a consideration.
Of course that could all change since there is some time before it comes out... but at the same time all of the NSX competition will be releasing newer better models as well (R8, GTR, etc) which almost puts it behind the 8-ball before it even launches.
I would have loved to see a game changer, not a follow the pack car...
I agree. Wow.
I was hoping that maybe in 5-6 years I could pick one up, assuming it was a success, but not with a starting price of 150k+. I was expecting it to top out at 160, not start just below.
That being said, as much as I want to believe, I have my doubts on the reliability of the upcoming NSX. I highly highly doubt they will be anywhere as reliable as the 1G was. That car was just a bare bones, drivers car with not much on it to go wrong. Throwing in crazy computer systems, three electric motors, dct, etc, etc, and I think after the first five years of ownership, problems will start surfacing, thereby significantly dropping the residual value of the 2G. I guess time will tell.
And screw acura for the bullshit reveal, that didn't reveal anything about the car!!
The following assembly work is required to make a shift lever mechanism. A push button panel with electronic "mickey mouse" buttons will replace all of the work below.
Gear shift shaft to machine. Plastic handle to make. Linkages to transmission to make. Shift lever base to machine & check for tolerances. Lubrication to grease the shift mechanism. Inspection of all machined component parts. Mechanical parts to assemble & doesn't shift correctly requiring more hours of inspection, disassembly & rework. All metal parts here requiring heat treatment, surface finish treatment, roughness requirements, hardness requirements & etc. Should I continue?
Lots of car manufacturers are getting rid of selector knobs in favor or push buttons or knows or whatever...its the current trend and its been trickling down from the ultra luxury/exotic cars that have had them for years now.
BMW may still have a shift knob...but its been an electronic shifter for years.
I very much doubt it has anything to do with cost cutting and more to do with keeping up with the Jeffersons.
I was hoping that maybe in 5-6 years I could pick one up, assuming it was a success, but not with a starting price of 150k+. I was expecting it to top out at 160, not start just below.
Think about it. The NSX was an 80000$ car in the 90's. This is still a decent price. Hopefully it's 50k better than the GTR.
Think about it. The NSX was an 80000$ car in the 90's. This is still a decent price. Hopefully it's 50k better than the GTR.
With an MSRP of just under 90k USD back in 2005, by today's standards (using an inflation calculator) works out to just under 110k. Now it's jumping at least 45k in price. Talk about narrowing your demographics.
This is before the guaranteed dealership markups, etc, where you could get an '05 NSX for way under MSRP and they couldn't sell them. Granted, this is the first year of production vs. the last year of a long drawn out production, but still, the price gap only got bigger when considering older 1G model years.
And screw acura for the bullshit reveal, that didn't reveal anything about the car!!
I disagree. Did you hear that exhaust note? I did. Go watch the launch video and scroll to about 17:30. That tells me pretty much what I need to know. At how many reveals from Acura has that happened? It was as if they wanted to prove that the NSX is not vaporware.
Further, the Honda press release was pretty thorough on the deets. Go read it!
I think they got this particular reveal right, other than Mike Acavetti blabbering on for too long when we just wanted to see and hear the car roll out under its own power.
01-08-2015, 11:10 AM
but I see your point 
U-S-A! U-S-A!
