PsychDoc

I ran across this on a BMW message board, but it pretty well describes the angst/learning/acceptance curve that people feel when their cars are replaced with a new model.

Applies equally well to the 4G TL as to the BMW line.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2011/06/11/co...-time-to-grow/

Glashub

IMO, the Bangle butt was going to work no matter whether people liked it or not because of all of that discussion about it. As they say in Hollywood...there is no such thing as bad publicity.

Having said that, the Bangle cars were released at the beginning of and lasted through the real estate/internet bubble. People were throwing money around. House wives becoming mortgage brokers by passing a simple exam and then pulling down 400K a year. That sort of thing.

It's Acura’s misfortune (stupidity?) to have released its "Bangle butt" during a recession. Maybe it still has added to its brand through notoriety...but, alas, no spike in sales.

saturno_v

I agree with that...and that column says exactly what I been saying on this forum for quite sometime...I remember very well the outrage at the launch of the 5 Series E60 "Bangle must go!!", "I will not buy this 5 series" and so on....BMW just marched on because it knew it had an excellent product...and the rest is history....the E60 has been the best selling 5 Series so far.

The 4th gen TL is one of the best car in its segment, tremendous value for the money....but it was released when the economy thanked which did not help...and Acura chickened out and revamped the design because it could not stomach the "acceptance time" for the new design to sets in with potential customers.....in my opinion it should have spent the refresh money further improving the value proposition of the car and fixing one serius flaw...lack of folding seats at the back...I personally know of at least one person that did not buy the car just because of this...

Standing behind your product is marketing 101...the 4th TL was never "universally" regarded as ugly (a la' Pontiac Aztek so to speak), but simply very polarizing...some think is beautiful some think is horrible...and people reporting about receiving compliments for the car (myself included) is a proof of that.

Lastly, unfortunately Acura is no BMW in terms of image and it cannot "dare" to be too adventurous in its design....this is part of the power of a brand and the reason why a brand is one of the biggest asset for a company...again, think if the hideous X6 was made by Hyundai....how many would have been sold???

RSLTSX09XMNAVWX

I spent a few hours at the Acura dealer today and as I worked on stuff on my laptop, only 10 feet away was a 2012. 20 feet away was a 2011. The longer i looked at both cars, the more I became aware of why I fell in love with the 2010. For me, the front grill is to small, the dark headlights don't work for me. I wanted to give it a chance, but as hard as I tried I could not warm up to the 2012. I like aggressive design, that is just me.. Probably why I think the new BMW is a winner in the front, but still to laid back in the rear. Look at the side view of the BMW F10, look familiar? OK, 6 speed is a good thing, vented seat is also a good thing, but Acura tried to take a car that was re-designed in 2009 and as they say Tone It Down by changing some plastic but no metal. Hard to do for sure... So it was time to go ask a few questions to the sales folks. 2012 are in short supply but they are moving more 2011 then 12. People still like the 2009-2011 design, not to mention the great deals on the car... BTW take a look at the new Audi Q5 SUV, and note the size of the rear reflectors,,, look familiar!!

NwTSXmt

Man this subject is getting old...Get the one YOU prefer...why do so many THINK they need to justify their choice..

Stew4HD

I don't think they can let it go.. "Acura chickened out"? LOL.. sure.. let sales fall to near zero!

As I have said several times, the only ones complaining about the looks of the '12 are the owners of the '09-'11.

As you said, they are "justifying" their purchases and they sure don't need to.

saturno_v

I don't need to justify anything....If I were on the market today I would still buy the 2012 TL...but from a marketing perspective Acura admitted "We made a mistake" and this is generally considered negative for a brand...being Acura, Audi or anybody else..

Stew4HD

By who's standards is admitting a mistake and fixing that mistake a negative?

TechnoCat

One important part of that article: The BMW restyles sold well despite the purists. The Acura 2009 restyle... didn't.

saturno_v

The negative part is admitting that they did not do a good job getting the pulse of people's taste...barely acceptable for a generalist brand, not for a premeium one..

saturno_v

I think the key is the word eventually...eventually did sell well...I tried to pull up some info on the web on it but I cannot find anything but I remember that sales were initially soft...and, as I said before, BMW is a much more established brand than Acura, loyal customer base...

Glashub

Again, though, if you read my post....it was introduced during one of the biggest bubbles known to mankind. People who had no right based on a number of factors to be making 6 figures were doing so. I know a guy who traded in 4 new cars (Lexus, BMW, Porsche and Porsche again) in one year. Why not? He made $500,000 on his house. There was money to burn like we'll never see again...and people did so without care or thought.

Today people evaluate everything before spending a penny.

Damn, the point of the OP post isn't that the 2012 is pretty and the 2011 is not. It's how people react to design change.

winstrolvtec

People were able to see past the Bangle designs eventually, especially the last generation 5 series, as these were still the best BMW's to date which also saw some of their most significant advancements in brand history, plus a badge that carries as much false esteem (in the minds of it's consumers at least) as BMW does, helps makes up for a lot.

Unfortunately, Acura is a more modest brand and doesn't have that last part going for them. As already mentioned, we are also talking about substantial differences in economics. Most of the BMW redesigns came at a time where more people were financially confident and sure that they would be in a new car in 3 years anyway, where folks now need to be sure they are able to live with a car for the long haul just in case. It also helps that BMW sales are something like 3/4 leases, Acura's are about 50% at best.

It should go without saying that the recent Acura design trend as well as the Bangle BMW's, cost(s) these brands more sales than the average design does. The one thing I can say for Acura is at least it is an obvious attempt to build better brand recognition and further diversity from Honda. While I wouldn't say mission accomplished just yet, it appears to be something the designs are actually succeeding at. BMW didn't exactly have those problems.

saturno_v

I agree for the most part however we have to say that the bad economy is for everyone....BMW, Acura, Audi, Infiniti and so on.....still BMW and even Porsche are going gangbuster.

IMHO Acura pays a lot the fact of not having a more diversified model range....and I think that up to a point the BMW clientele is a bit different compared to Acura......I suspect Acura buyers tend to be more frugal, value oriented and so more sensitive to the economy compared to BMW, Mercedes and even Lexus typical customers...and I admit that the 4th gen TL design is probably even more polarizing than the Bangle 5 Series...

Luuxury brands (for everything) are doing very well in this economy...but this is a discussion for another day...

So probably there are a lot of factors involved...less articulated model range, more economy sensitive clientele, less brand power....

However I read floating around that the TL sold 13.5k TL year to date in 2011 compared to about 15K Infiniti G37...if it is true so is doing not so bad after all....it would be nice if we could find a source of reliable data with the breakdown in single model sales.

Glashub

IMO Acura owners do not have as much disposable income as people who can afford German luxury brands. The recession is why you don't see as many German brands but you do still see them...people who can really afford them are still buying them. People making $500 a week and using liars loans don 't exist anymore. Leaving Acura owners who are solid financially but not probably rich.

saturno_v

Definitely some German car owners (especially for the high end models) are not suffering the recession...however do not forget that the Germans outlease the others like 3 to 1...again I suspect Acura buyers tend to be more frugal and value oriented....doesn't necessarily means they are suffering....

jasonwdp10

Total 2010 sales
G25/37 sedan - 41,653
G25 sales started the last qtr in 2010
http://www.torquenews.com/113/nissan...-2010-us-sales
http://www.autospies.com/images/user...20December.JPG
TL 34,049
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=948717

G37 sold abt 22% more than the TL in 2010.

Up to May 2011
.
G25/37 sedan - 17,683
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Infini....html?x=0&.v=1

TL - 13,118
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=983312

G is outselling the TL by over 34%.

The TL used to dominate the segment.

saturno_v

Probably so but maybe the competition (and the G in this particular case) was not as strong.....personally I think the older Gs were not visually appealing...and the existence of the smaller engine (the G25) and a lower starting MSRP price (3.5K) surely helps even more...

markcincinnati

For whatever reason, "Acura sales have slipped" (in comparison to some of the brands they aspire to and do compete with.) The major car review/enthusiast magazines seem to be quite willing to attribute this slippage, in part, to design (or styling.) Moreover, those who actually get paid to opine on such subjects seem willing, too, to attribute Acura's sales performance issues (whatever they may be) to the brand not having a V8 (like Audi, BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, etc etc) offering.

I find this last "justification" [for being included or excluded] somewhat perplexing since -- for example -- Audi's bread and butter car, the A4 2.0T quattro (often in Premium+ trim) can only be had with 4 or a 6 cylinder power -- both blown (the V6 is technically called an S4, of course). And the always well reviewed Bimmer 3 series is typically equipped with a 6, too. By the way, I am speaking about the brand's availability of a V8 (or whatever the "it" item is), not simply an individual model's being offered with "it."

In fact, the A6 or the 5 or the M or the E, to pick four have repeatedly (and somewhat recently) been in comparo tests that -- not too long ago -- would have had to include an RL to preclude hate mail from the readership. No more, Acura, in the Premium or entry-level luxury class is, er, "not included" -- for whatever reason (V8, or lack of a V8 often cited.) This is a hoot since hardly anyone (% or quantity) actually buys an M56X or one of the others with the V8 option box ticked (when offered, that is.)

At the same time, R&T does a pretty good article for Acura TL fans, comparing a TL to an [Audi] S4, despite the Audis +5 figure cost disadvantage. As I recall R&T even says, words to the effect "this is a comparo most folks shopping for a new car would not make."

So Acura comes out with a new design that many customers and most reviewers are put-off by. Now they hurry, quick-fast, to make it right and overall they did a pretty decent job.

But, where they seem -- IMHO -- to be missing out on a legitimate claim to the Premium Sport Luxury class is NOT in the lack of a V8, but in the lack of either optional or standard "features" that many of their European (and Japanese) competition offers.

Some of the things not included in an Acura [TL] (and NOT able to be spec'd -- and paid for) are somewhat confusing (some of these things seem necessary primarily from a marketing standpoint, but -- that's not the point, just like a V8 (or whatever) option is not the point, it is in some bizzaro world important that "you coulda hadda V8"):

o bi-xenon headlights
o 15% articulating headlights
o reverse camera articulating site-lines
o automatic -- rain sensing -- windshield wipers
o needle sweep of tach and speedo upon ignition (programmable)
o digital speed indication (supplimental)
o wood trim (real)
o Blind Spot assist on virtually any trim
o Automatic Cruise Control
o Automatic rear window shade and rear side window shades
o More flexible paint and interior color combinations (why not white paint and umber leather for example; or, why no red leather option at any price?)
o Remote activation of windows, sunroof, up & down via key fob
o An interior button array that thinks less is more (despite the boos and hisses about iDrive, Command and MMI)
o A touch screen
o rear heated seats
o fold down rear seats
o rear biased AWD
o more than a 6 speed auto-transmission (when the rest of the world is now touting 8 speeds and "clutchless manuals" e.g., DSG, etc)
o a sport package (that included both trim bits and real hardware tweaks, not just bling)
o factory backup-sensors (Parktronic by whatever name Acura dreamed up)
o HD radio
o audio system premium+ upgrade offering

And on and on and on.

Please note, my comments suggested that these items be able to be optioned (if at all possible) -- not that they be put in the base auto (increasing the MSRP.) Truth be told, lots of folks would still be happy as a pig in slop to simply buy a TL AWD w/ Tech and be done with it, no personalization, no off the color scheme chart selections, etc.

Frankly, Rear-Drive Biased AWD (having had both F and R and 50 50 myself) with a system like SH-AWD is, from a practical perspective, not necessary. But just remember that the professional nit pickers will always tout rear-biased AWD over front-biased AWD and that SOMEONE -- some paying customers -- must care. After having driven rear biased Audis and Bimmers and now having driven the 2012 TL SH-AWD (advance), I would not at all be concerned that the Acura was nominally an FWD vehicle, only shifting into full combat mode from time to time. But that is just me.

Acura -- with genuinely fine cars -- is driving toward the edge of the circle of car classes that it has worked hard to achieve membership in (Premium, Lux, Sport Lux and Entry Level Lux). Offering additional revenue stream items (aka options) would be one way -- perhaps -- to avoid going over the edge. Of course, the previously mentioned V8 or at least a super or turbo charged V6 wouldn't hurt either.

TechnoCat

There aren't any good direct Acura-to-Infiniti car sales comparisons; Acura has four car models while Infiniti has six. It's the same problem with Audi; does the TL compete with the A4, the S4, the A5, the S5 or the A6? Do the upscale two-door cars for the other brands split the market?

black label

BMW had existed for about 70 years before Acura debuted, they had a little more time to establish customer base.

cjTL

iTrader: (2)

Didn't read through all the responses in here, but I think the sales figures really tell the tale of the 4G TL the best. Economy or not...sales are no where NEAR the amount that the 3G TL were. I'm curious to see the numbers for 2011 with the 2012 TL.

3rd Gen
2004 77,895
2005 78,218
2006 71,348
2007 58,545
2008 48,766
4th Gen
2009 33,620
2010 34,049

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

I think the problem with the Acura was three-fold. One, it was a somewhat radical redesign, two... it was fugly, and three... with the exception of the 2009 (which was out in 2008) it had to battle through a recession. The Bangle BMW's grew on people... but the TL, not so much. The 2012 is slightly better and I'm with you... curious if the 2011 numbers are higher or if Acura scared off too many people...

Oh, and I just have to include this pic, just b/c of the topic:

chill_dog

No need to read the article...BMW's radical design change (or Acura's for the 4G) has never grown on me and never will. Ugly is ugly; always will be.

alex2364

Year-to-date 2011 TL sales haven't improved compared to 2010.

YTD May 2011:
13118

YTD May 2010:
14080

Rockstar21

iTrader: (1)

i have never disliked the styling of an acura vehicle until the 4G TL.

i dont "love" the rest of the new lineup.. but they arent exactly a huge dissapointment.

F23A4