Downshifting -> Driving a stick, quick question
06-24-2011, 03:42 PM
#81
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OK. First off, I recommend no one do this. Don't bother to even try. How I do it should not be learned by anyone. Ever.
But I'll let you know how I learned, and how I've taught others (that shouldn't be doing it either). First off, there is no need to depress a clutch to the floor to disengage or engage a gear selection. Most hydraulic clutches have clamping force only at the top portion of their travel. When I learn a particular vehicle (as each one is different) is first get used to the clutch travel and see where the engagement point is. I start by using the clutch in the normal fashion to take out of gear and place it into another. Again, only depressing the clutch only to the point where it disengages. I then use the clutch to take the car from gear, place the car in neutral, depress the clutch once more and put it into gear. I guess I should mention I'm doing this while upshifting. This is done a number of times, using less clutch each time before shifting into a higher gear. Generally, you will feel some resistance each time less clutch is used. Instead of using more clutch to overcome this resistance, either take the car out of gear earlier or later before moving to the next gear. Do this a number of times, and you'll learn when it generally has the least resistance. When you discover the point where the vehicle is most comfortable moving from one gear to another, still continue using the clutch to put the car in gear, although less each time. Eventually you'll find you are just stabbing the clutch, and soon after you'll discover you're not using the clutch at all except to take the car out of gear (very important).
Downshifting is the same process, except you blip the throttle going from gear to another. To properly learn this, while shifting into a lower gear gently raise the engine speed while slightly depressing the clutch. Again, you'll quickly learn where the transmission is most comfortable going into gear. Experiment with engine speed instead of using more clutch. Once this is mastered you'll quickly learn the exact speed and engine rpm where you can place the car in a lower gear. It becomes second nature stab clutch, place gearbox in neutral, blip throttle, intrinsically feeling the point where engine speed matches gearbox, and elegant slide it into a lower gear.
I've made this overly simplistic, but it's the general idea. Always remember to place the car into gear, as opposed to forcing it into gear. Done correctly, you can feel the precise moment through the shifter when the car will go into another gear. This is easier on a RWD vehicle, as it's easier to feel the transmission movement through the shift lever. FWD and rear mounted gear boxes are a little harder to learn.
I've driven this way for thirty years and have never destroyed a gearbox. I've driven this manner with my daily drivers and collector vehicles alike, as well of course the thirteen and eighteen speed Peterbilts where the use of a clutch is even discouraged at times. Is it tough to learn? Absolutely, but get the hang of it and your shifting become seamless and hardly noticeable.
Terry
But I'll let you know how I learned, and how I've taught others (that shouldn't be doing it either). First off, there is no need to depress a clutch to the floor to disengage or engage a gear selection. Most hydraulic clutches have clamping force only at the top portion of their travel. When I learn a particular vehicle (as each one is different) is first get used to the clutch travel and see where the engagement point is. I start by using the clutch in the normal fashion to take out of gear and place it into another. Again, only depressing the clutch only to the point where it disengages. I then use the clutch to take the car from gear, place the car in neutral, depress the clutch once more and put it into gear. I guess I should mention I'm doing this while upshifting. This is done a number of times, using less clutch each time before shifting into a higher gear. Generally, you will feel some resistance each time less clutch is used. Instead of using more clutch to overcome this resistance, either take the car out of gear earlier or later before moving to the next gear. Do this a number of times, and you'll learn when it generally has the least resistance. When you discover the point where the vehicle is most comfortable moving from one gear to another, still continue using the clutch to put the car in gear, although less each time. Eventually you'll find you are just stabbing the clutch, and soon after you'll discover you're not using the clutch at all except to take the car out of gear (very important).
Downshifting is the same process, except you blip the throttle going from gear to another. To properly learn this, while shifting into a lower gear gently raise the engine speed while slightly depressing the clutch. Again, you'll quickly learn where the transmission is most comfortable going into gear. Experiment with engine speed instead of using more clutch. Once this is mastered you'll quickly learn the exact speed and engine rpm where you can place the car in a lower gear. It becomes second nature stab clutch, place gearbox in neutral, blip throttle, intrinsically feeling the point where engine speed matches gearbox, and elegant slide it into a lower gear.
I've made this overly simplistic, but it's the general idea. Always remember to place the car into gear, as opposed to forcing it into gear. Done correctly, you can feel the precise moment through the shifter when the car will go into another gear. This is easier on a RWD vehicle, as it's easier to feel the transmission movement through the shift lever. FWD and rear mounted gear boxes are a little harder to learn.
I've driven this way for thirty years and have never destroyed a gearbox. I've driven this manner with my daily drivers and collector vehicles alike, as well of course the thirteen and eighteen speed Peterbilts where the use of a clutch is even discouraged at times. Is it tough to learn? Absolutely, but get the hang of it and your shifting become seamless and hardly noticeable.
Terry
But in all seriousness, I was actually told that if you try to hard to do this improperly, you will mess up the synchro's....so I would say, "kid's, don't try this at home". I rarely do it too...Once in the while i'm in the mood, I do it, but you probably do it a heck of a lot better (and more often, apparently) than me.
[edit] Just saw SouthernBoy sort of agrees with me...
Last edited by Shoofin; 06-24-2011 at 03:47 PM.
06-24-2011, 04:01 PM
#82
You're spoiling the secret!!!
But in all seriousness, I was actually told that if you try to hard to do this improperly, you will mess up the synchro's....so I would say, "kid's, don't try this at home". I rarely do it too...Once in the while i'm in the mood, I do it, but you probably do it a heck of a lot better (and more often, apparently) than me.
[edit] Just saw SouthernBoy sort of agrees with me...
But in all seriousness, I was actually told that if you try to hard to do this improperly, you will mess up the synchro's....so I would say, "kid's, don't try this at home". I rarely do it too...Once in the while i'm in the mood, I do it, but you probably do it a heck of a lot better (and more often, apparently) than me.
[edit] Just saw SouthernBoy sort of agrees with me...
Yep, you need to learn by being very patient. Very patient. Too many people get angry or rushed and start pushing things around. Not good. Master it though, it's like rowing through butter.
Terry
06-24-2011, 04:48 PM
#83
depends on the situation for me (i.e. speed, traffic, etc.).
if i see a red light coming, i'll either downshift (i don't skip gears), stay in gear until i'm at a low speed then neutral.
as long as i'm in motion, i prefer to be in gear rather than coasting.
if i see a red light coming, i'll either downshift (i don't skip gears), stay in gear until i'm at a low speed then neutral.
as long as i'm in motion, i prefer to be in gear rather than coasting.
06-24-2011, 05:20 PM
#84
Team Owner
06-24-2011, 06:25 PM
#85
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
OK. First off, I recommend no one do this. Don't bother to even try. How I do it should not be learned by anyone. Ever.
But I'll let you know how I learned, and how I've taught others (that shouldn't be doing it either). First off, there is no need to depress a clutch to the floor to disengage or engage a gear selection. Most hydraulic clutches have clamping force only at the top portion of their travel. When I learn a particular vehicle (as each one is different) is first get used to the clutch travel and see where the engagement point is. I start by using the clutch in the normal fashion to take out of gear and place it into another. Again, only depressing the clutch only to the point where it disengages. I then use the clutch to take the car from gear, place the car in neutral, depress the clutch once more and put it into gear. I guess I should mention I'm doing this while upshifting. This is done a number of times, using less clutch each time before shifting into a higher gear. Generally, you will feel some resistance each time less clutch is used. Instead of using more clutch to overcome this resistance, either take the car out of gear earlier or later before moving to the next gear. Do this a number of times, and you'll learn when it generally has the least resistance. When you discover the point where the vehicle is most comfortable moving from one gear to another, still continue using the clutch to put the car in gear, although less each time. Eventually you'll find you are just stabbing the clutch, and soon after you'll discover you're not using the clutch at all except to take the car out of gear (very important).
Downshifting is the same process, except you blip the throttle going from gear to another. To properly learn this, while shifting into a lower gear gently raise the engine speed while slightly depressing the clutch. Again, you'll quickly learn where the transmission is most comfortable going into gear. Experiment with engine speed instead of using more clutch. Once this is mastered you'll quickly learn the exact speed and engine rpm where you can place the car in a lower gear. It becomes second nature stab clutch, place gearbox in neutral, blip throttle, intrinsically feeling the point where engine speed matches gearbox, and elegant slide it into a lower gear.
I've made this overly simplistic, but it's the general idea. Always remember to place the car into gear, as opposed to forcing it into gear. Done correctly, you can feel the precise moment through the shifter when the car will go into another gear. This is easier on a RWD vehicle, as it's easier to feel the transmission movement through the shift lever. FWD and rear mounted gear boxes are a little harder to learn.
I've driven this way for thirty years and have never destroyed a gearbox. I've driven this manner with my daily drivers and collector vehicles alike, as well of course the thirteen and eighteen speed Peterbilts where the use of a clutch is even discouraged at times. Is it tough to learn? Absolutely, but get the hang of it and your shifting become seamless and hardly noticeable.
Terry
But I'll let you know how I learned, and how I've taught others (that shouldn't be doing it either). First off, there is no need to depress a clutch to the floor to disengage or engage a gear selection. Most hydraulic clutches have clamping force only at the top portion of their travel. When I learn a particular vehicle (as each one is different) is first get used to the clutch travel and see where the engagement point is. I start by using the clutch in the normal fashion to take out of gear and place it into another. Again, only depressing the clutch only to the point where it disengages. I then use the clutch to take the car from gear, place the car in neutral, depress the clutch once more and put it into gear. I guess I should mention I'm doing this while upshifting. This is done a number of times, using less clutch each time before shifting into a higher gear. Generally, you will feel some resistance each time less clutch is used. Instead of using more clutch to overcome this resistance, either take the car out of gear earlier or later before moving to the next gear. Do this a number of times, and you'll learn when it generally has the least resistance. When you discover the point where the vehicle is most comfortable moving from one gear to another, still continue using the clutch to put the car in gear, although less each time. Eventually you'll find you are just stabbing the clutch, and soon after you'll discover you're not using the clutch at all except to take the car out of gear (very important).
Downshifting is the same process, except you blip the throttle going from gear to another. To properly learn this, while shifting into a lower gear gently raise the engine speed while slightly depressing the clutch. Again, you'll quickly learn where the transmission is most comfortable going into gear. Experiment with engine speed instead of using more clutch. Once this is mastered you'll quickly learn the exact speed and engine rpm where you can place the car in a lower gear. It becomes second nature stab clutch, place gearbox in neutral, blip throttle, intrinsically feeling the point where engine speed matches gearbox, and elegant slide it into a lower gear.
I've made this overly simplistic, but it's the general idea. Always remember to place the car into gear, as opposed to forcing it into gear. Done correctly, you can feel the precise moment through the shifter when the car will go into another gear. This is easier on a RWD vehicle, as it's easier to feel the transmission movement through the shift lever. FWD and rear mounted gear boxes are a little harder to learn.
I've driven this way for thirty years and have never destroyed a gearbox. I've driven this manner with my daily drivers and collector vehicles alike, as well of course the thirteen and eighteen speed Peterbilts where the use of a clutch is even discouraged at times. Is it tough to learn? Absolutely, but get the hang of it and your shifting become seamless and hardly noticeable.
Terry
06-25-2011, 08:44 PM
#86
OK. First off, I recommend no one do this. Don't bother to even try. How I do it should not be learned by anyone. Ever.
But I'll let you know how I learned, and how I've taught others (that shouldn't be doing it either). First off, there is no need to depress a clutch to the floor to disengage or engage a gear selection. Most hydraulic clutches have clamping force only at the top portion of their travel. When I learn a particular vehicle (as each one is different) is first get used to the clutch travel and see where the engagement point is. I start by using the clutch in the normal fashion to take out of gear and place it into another. Again, only depressing the clutch only to the point where it disengages. I then use the clutch to take the car from gear, place the car in neutral, depress the clutch once more and put it into gear. I guess I should mention I'm doing this while upshifting. This is done a number of times, using less clutch each time before shifting into a higher gear. Generally, you will feel some resistance each time less clutch is used. Instead of using more clutch to overcome this resistance, either take the car out of gear earlier or later before moving to the next gear. Do this a number of times, and you'll learn when it generally has the least resistance. When you discover the point where the vehicle is most comfortable moving from one gear to another, still continue using the clutch to put the car in gear, although less each time. Eventually you'll find you are just stabbing the clutch, and soon after you'll discover you're not using the clutch at all except to take the car out of gear (very important).
Downshifting is the same process, except you blip the throttle going from gear to another. To properly learn this, while shifting into a lower gear gently raise the engine speed while slightly depressing the clutch. Again, you'll quickly learn where the transmission is most comfortable going into gear. Experiment with engine speed instead of using more clutch. Once this is mastered you'll quickly learn the exact speed and engine rpm where you can place the car in a lower gear. It becomes second nature stab clutch, place gearbox in neutral, blip throttle, intrinsically feeling the point where engine speed matches gearbox, and elegant slide it into a lower gear.
I've made this overly simplistic, but it's the general idea. Always remember to place the car into gear, as opposed to forcing it into gear. Done correctly, you can feel the precise moment through the shifter when the car will go into another gear. This is easier on a RWD vehicle, as it's easier to feel the transmission movement through the shift lever. FWD and rear mounted gear boxes are a little harder to learn.
I've driven this way for thirty years and have never destroyed a gearbox. I've driven this manner with my daily drivers and collector vehicles alike, as well of course the thirteen and eighteen speed Peterbilts where the use of a clutch is even discouraged at times. Is it tough to learn? Absolutely, but get the hang of it and your shifting become seamless and hardly noticeable.
Terry
But I'll let you know how I learned, and how I've taught others (that shouldn't be doing it either). First off, there is no need to depress a clutch to the floor to disengage or engage a gear selection. Most hydraulic clutches have clamping force only at the top portion of their travel. When I learn a particular vehicle (as each one is different) is first get used to the clutch travel and see where the engagement point is. I start by using the clutch in the normal fashion to take out of gear and place it into another. Again, only depressing the clutch only to the point where it disengages. I then use the clutch to take the car from gear, place the car in neutral, depress the clutch once more and put it into gear. I guess I should mention I'm doing this while upshifting. This is done a number of times, using less clutch each time before shifting into a higher gear. Generally, you will feel some resistance each time less clutch is used. Instead of using more clutch to overcome this resistance, either take the car out of gear earlier or later before moving to the next gear. Do this a number of times, and you'll learn when it generally has the least resistance. When you discover the point where the vehicle is most comfortable moving from one gear to another, still continue using the clutch to put the car in gear, although less each time. Eventually you'll find you are just stabbing the clutch, and soon after you'll discover you're not using the clutch at all except to take the car out of gear (very important).
Downshifting is the same process, except you blip the throttle going from gear to another. To properly learn this, while shifting into a lower gear gently raise the engine speed while slightly depressing the clutch. Again, you'll quickly learn where the transmission is most comfortable going into gear. Experiment with engine speed instead of using more clutch. Once this is mastered you'll quickly learn the exact speed and engine rpm where you can place the car in a lower gear. It becomes second nature stab clutch, place gearbox in neutral, blip throttle, intrinsically feeling the point where engine speed matches gearbox, and elegant slide it into a lower gear.
I've made this overly simplistic, but it's the general idea. Always remember to place the car into gear, as opposed to forcing it into gear. Done correctly, you can feel the precise moment through the shifter when the car will go into another gear. This is easier on a RWD vehicle, as it's easier to feel the transmission movement through the shift lever. FWD and rear mounted gear boxes are a little harder to learn.
I've driven this way for thirty years and have never destroyed a gearbox. I've driven this manner with my daily drivers and collector vehicles alike, as well of course the thirteen and eighteen speed Peterbilts where the use of a clutch is even discouraged at times. Is it tough to learn? Absolutely, but get the hang of it and your shifting become seamless and hardly noticeable.
Terry
Now if only I can get hang of downshifting in same manner. 
Thanks Terry.
Another question, how about clutch less shifting? Just using engine/wheel speed to upshift and downshift?
06-26-2011, 12:02 AM
#88
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My
, don't get into the habit of trying to shift w/o using the clutch. If you don't know what you're doing, you're going to cause more harm than good to the drivetrain..
06-26-2011, 12:09 AM
#89
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06-26-2011, 01:43 AM
#90
I have only driven manuals for about 4 years... I learned it all in one day just from someone in the passenger seat showing me and was comfortable within a few days. I smoothed out my technique and it became second nature within a month or two. After driving my manual Integra for less than half a year I tried rev matching, heel-toe and got that down smooth within a week. Same thing with double clutch, rev match heel-toe. They both became second nature within a month or so as well.
There is nothing difficult about it once you practice it regularly. As mentioned, you become familiar with the motions within a certain amount of time, unless you have very poor hand-eye-foot coordination or something. It only looks complicated when you read about it. If my clumsy ass could master it within months, anyone could learn it, really, given enough determination.
The way I see it is, do you put your automatic car into neutral while coasting to a stop? I don't. Could you? Sure.... but do you actually do so? Again, there's nothing wrong with it one way or another, but personally it is just a tiny bit unsettling sometimes to just coast in neutral.... but it has to do with my habits more than anything.
Doesn't matter if it's my first time in a friend's car with an unsprung 6-puck clutch along with a super heavy pressure plate.... I will try to rev match it anyways even if it requires me to use every single muscle in my left leg, foot and buttcheek
There is nothing difficult about it once you practice it regularly. As mentioned, you become familiar with the motions within a certain amount of time, unless you have very poor hand-eye-foot coordination or something. It only looks complicated when you read about it. If my clumsy ass could master it within months, anyone could learn it, really, given enough determination.
The way I see it is, do you put your automatic car into neutral while coasting to a stop? I don't. Could you? Sure.... but do you actually do so? Again, there's nothing wrong with it one way or another, but personally it is just a tiny bit unsettling sometimes to just coast in neutral.... but it has to do with my habits more than anything.
Doesn't matter if it's my first time in a friend's car with an unsprung 6-puck clutch along with a super heavy pressure plate.... I will try to rev match it anyways even if it requires me to use every single muscle in my left leg, foot and buttcheek
06-26-2011, 03:53 AM
#91
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
I have only driven manuals for about 4 years... I learned it all in one day just from someone in the passenger seat showing me and was comfortable within a few days. I smoothed out my technique and it became second nature within a month or two. After driving my manual Integra for less than half a year I tried rev matching, heel-toe and got that down smooth within a week. Same thing with double clutch, rev match heel-toe. They both became second nature within a month or so as well.
It sounds pretty fancy, but no, not at all. Anyone who drives a stick everyday will know this. It's pretty simple. It's not that complicated as it sounds to be.
06-26-2011, 07:02 AM
#93
Registered Member
06-26-2011, 09:57 AM
#95
Regional Coordinator (Texas)
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Ive never heard you should skip gears while downshifting...I mean you shouldnt go from like 6th to 3rd gear while going 70mph, etc pending where you redline.
But I often do what your friend does...or I downshift...just depends on what I feel like doing.
Best thing on the freeway is to drop from 6th to 4th and gun it....so much fun.
But I often do what your friend does...or I downshift...just depends on what I feel like doing.
Best thing on the freeway is to drop from 6th to 4th and gun it....so much fun.
06-26-2011, 02:36 PM
#97
it's a car-drive it
I learned to drive stick on a 71 VW-it did not have a tachometer so rev matching was not possible.
Our '11 hyundai sonata 6MT lets you know which gear you should be in. I find I am doing it correct. I think other cars such as the Subaru also has that feature.
Last edited by nj2pa2nc; 06-26-2011 at 02:38 PM.
06-26-2011, 05:18 PM
#99
MATT
i think many people in here who have commented on this either really don't know how to downshift properly or like others said are just to lazy.....i used to always downshift when i drove manual in my cars coming to a stop sign or red light or even behind a slower moving vehicle in front of me (usually not down to 1st because its not really needed being your usually already at a low speed in 2nd)....the people who clutch and coast to a red light have less control over your vehicle and obviously don't know the proper gear to put your car in if you don't come to a complete stop (optimal gear for your speed with the necessary rpm range)....also as far as the skipping shifts i don't see a problem with doing that as long as you know your rpm range and the strain that you can put on your clutch and engine if doing so
06-26-2011, 09:59 PM
#103
The Third Ball
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06-26-2011, 10:00 PM
#104
The Third Ball
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06-26-2011, 10:53 PM
#105
06-27-2011, 06:37 AM
#106
Registered Member
06-27-2011, 07:50 AM
#107
A lot of these techniques depend on the car your driving. Try this stuff on a old stick truck or SUV. Like my 93 explorer I have & I'll grenade the clutch and/or trans.
I likely do not drive a stick as good as some of you guys. I'd NEVER try to pop the car in gear without the use of the clutch. But I mostly had old truck sticks. My CL is the 1st car stick I have had.
I likely do not drive a stick as good as some of you guys. I'd NEVER try to pop the car in gear without the use of the clutch. But I mostly had old truck sticks. My CL is the 1st car stick I have had.
06-27-2011, 09:32 AM
#108
Drifting
I almost always downshifted when slowing down, but only to 3rd gear, no need to go lower. If on the street would go 4th to 3rd with slight brake, and then to neutral. Coming off the highway would go 5th to 4th, then to 3rd....it is a nice gradual slow down and sounds nice when done moderately, I would only downshift so the rpms would come up to 3k. My TL is auto so it downshifts on its own, the Legacy GT was a manual and sounded nothing less than glorious with a proper downshift.
The only time I downshifted to 2nd was when going around a turn at a higher rate of speed, was nice to hit the gas in 3rd and then drop it down thru the turn. Never shifted down to 1st, not a good feeling.
The only time I downshifted to 2nd was when going around a turn at a higher rate of speed, was nice to hit the gas in 3rd and then drop it down thru the turn. Never shifted down to 1st, not a good feeling.
Last edited by Rock2534; 06-27-2011 at 09:34 AM.
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