Downshifting -> Driving a stick, quick question
06-24-2011, 11:48 AM
#41
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
ah I see. forgot about the fact that you drive a S2K. 70mph in 6th in my car is like 2.5k rpm.
I never really engine brake my car, so 4th is totally fine. I just put it on neutral after couple seconds anyway.
I never really engine brake my car, so 4th is totally fine. I just put it on neutral after couple seconds anyway.
06-24-2011, 11:50 AM
#43
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
a woman downshifting a manual car sounds so sexy to me. 
06-24-2011, 11:55 AM
#44
Team Owner
But i do when i am turning/exiting, especially when it is raining. More tractions when you have some load on the tires
06-24-2011, 12:11 PM
#45
The Dumb One
iTrader: (1)
im not resting the weight of my arm on it, or leaning weight to it... just simply having control of it.
and no, i dont have pressure on the clutch, the foot is just in position to depress it. so no worries there.
06-24-2011, 12:21 PM
#46
What's that saying? Opinions are like something, everyone's got one?
Sometimes I downshift, sometimes I don't.
I skip shifted all the time in my Accord and well after 100,000 miles it still shifted like butter with the original clutch. Whether you skip shift, rev match, double clutch or always throw it in neutral, things over time wear and I personally don't think ones necessarily better than the other.
Sometimes I downshift, sometimes I don't.
I skip shifted all the time in my Accord and well after 100,000 miles it still shifted like butter with the original clutch. Whether you skip shift, rev match, double clutch or always throw it in neutral, things over time wear and I personally don't think ones necessarily better than the other.
In the words of a friend of mine, "I don't care how it works. I just move the lever so it keeps going forward."
Terry
06-24-2011, 12:23 PM
#47
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Who said Heel and toe is not needed anymore?
how do you exit from the freeway at 70mph and the exit ramp has a 45 degree curve?
Rev-match is not enough because you also need to brake at the same time = heel & toe
and leaving in 6th turning at 20-30mph is just crazy, you might as well leave it in neutral.
I have seen ppl Brake then rev match downshift, then brake again, then rev match again then brake then rev match again..and sometimes, they don't do it fast enough and get stuck in neutral when turning...
and if you don't know how to heel n toe on the track, you will spin out at the very 1st corner...
how do you exit from the freeway at 70mph and the exit ramp has a 45 degree curve?
Rev-match is not enough because you also need to brake at the same time = heel & toe
and leaving in 6th turning at 20-30mph is just crazy, you might as well leave it in neutral.
I have seen ppl Brake then rev match downshift, then brake again, then rev match again then brake then rev match again..and sometimes, they don't do it fast enough and get stuck in neutral when turning...
and if you don't know how to heel n toe on the track, you will spin out at the very 1st corner...
And as for skipping gears in a shift, nothing wrong with it. Rev match down-shifting, nothing wrong with that either. Heck, downshifting without trying to rev-match, nothing wrong with that too. Why? Because today's transmissions are better designed as they were back in the day. You won't wear out the tranny as you could have back in the day, the newer shifters/clutches are much more forgiving with that because of the synchro's. Even the whole "double clutch downshifting" thing, with today's transmissions and the synchro's in play, you don't have to double clutch anymore.
Double clutch: off the gas, on the clutch, shifter to neutral, off the clutch, rev the engine, on the clutch, downshift, off the clutch. Too many steps, too much time wasted!
My version: off the gas, on the clutch, blip the gas while downshifting, off the clutch. Isn't that easy(er)?
And as for what I do? I usually skip 5th gear when getting on the highway and go straight from 4th to 6th. As for downshifting, i'll do the 6th to 5th, 6th to 4th, 6th to 3rd, or any variation I need to do, providing the engine speed permits it. The only thing I do not do is downshift to 1st. I rev match when needed, and I use engine speed to slow down together when getting to a stop (I downshift). Heck, sometimes I'm feeling lazy and I just pop it into neutral and slow down using the brakes.
The next lesson: How to rev match engine speed with vehicle speed to engage the shifter into gear without having to push on the clutch... Stay tuned!
Last edited by Shoofin; 06-24-2011 at 12:32 PM.
06-24-2011, 12:24 PM
#48
Three Wheelin'
How hard is it to drive a stick anyways? Last time I checked, I learned it in one hour. Most of you seems like professional drivers with all these fancy gear shifting through curves, turns, rev matching, etc..... Just put the damn thing through 1-2-3-5-6 and then brake until 1200-1500rpm and shift into neutral. Or just down shift to the proper gear when slowing down without stopping completely. Being driving like this for 20+ years without a single failed clutch! Whoever goes 6-5-4-3-2-1-Neutral to a red light every time must really be a nut case!
06-24-2011, 12:38 PM
#49
Actually Eddie, this is how I've driven a manual since I was about twelve years old. Ford Toploaders, 6060s, T5s, 82s, what have you. Even my 6MT Accord I rarely use the clutch to select a gear. Always stab the clutch when removing it out of gear however.
It takes a lot of practice, but I've never had a failure. I taught the daughter of an old girlfriend how to drive her mom's Z06 in the same fashion, and now she drives all manual gearboxes in the same manner.
Terry
Last edited by teranfon; 06-24-2011 at 12:44 PM.
@ silver3.5... I've never had a clutch or transmission repaired/replaced using this method.
06-24-2011, 12:42 PM
#51
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06-24-2011, 12:44 PM
#52
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
Actually Eddie, this is how I've driven a manual since I was about twelve years old. Ford Toploaders, 6060s, T5s, 82s, what have you. Even my 6MT Accord I rarely use the clutch to select a gear. Always stab the clutch when removing it out of gear however.
It takes a lot of practice, but I've never had a failure. I taught the daughter of an old girlfriend how to drive her mom's Z06 in the same fashion, and now she drives all manual gearboxes in the same manner.
Terry
It takes a lot of practice, but I've never had a failure. I taught the daughter of an old girlfriend how to drive her mom's Z06 in the same fashion, and now she drives all manual gearboxes in the same manner.
Terry
06-24-2011, 01:38 PM
#53
Registered Member
Haven't a clue. Just thought you might want to know that applying any pressure to your shifter while driving can cause it to slip out of gear if other factors are at play. If doing this while in neutral and sitting at a light, you risk engaging the synchronizers. Just imparting some information you might find helpful.
06-24-2011, 01:41 PM
#54
Team Owner
06-24-2011, 01:47 PM
#55
The sizzle in the Steak
I just make two quick taps on the paddle shifter
Ahh the wonders of Dual Clutch!
Ahh the wonders of Dual Clutch!
06-24-2011, 01:49 PM
#56
OK. First off, I recommend no one do this. Don't bother to even try. How I do it should not be learned by anyone. Ever.
But I'll let you know how I learned, and how I've taught others (that shouldn't be doing it either). First off, there is no need to depress a clutch to the floor to disengage or engage a gear selection. Most hydraulic clutches have clamping force only at the top portion of their travel. When I learn a particular vehicle (as each one is different) is first get used to the clutch travel and see where the engagement point is. I start by using the clutch in the normal fashion to take out of gear and place it into another. Again, only depressing the clutch only to the point where it disengages. I then use the clutch to take the car from gear, place the car in neutral, depress the clutch once more and put it into gear. I guess I should mention I'm doing this while upshifting. This is done a number of times, using less clutch each time before shifting into a higher gear. Generally, you will feel some resistance each time less clutch is used. Instead of using more clutch to overcome this resistance, either take the car out of gear earlier or later before moving to the next gear. Do this a number of times, and you'll learn when it generally has the least resistance. When you discover the point where the vehicle is most comfortable moving from one gear to another, still continue using the clutch to put the car in gear, although less each time. Eventually you'll find you are just stabbing the clutch, and soon after you'll discover you're not using the clutch at all except to take the car out of gear (very important).
Downshifting is the same process, except you blip the throttle going from gear to another. To properly learn this, while shifting into a lower gear gently raise the engine speed while slightly depressing the clutch. Again, you'll quickly learn where the transmission is most comfortable going into gear. Experiment with engine speed instead of using more clutch. Once this is mastered you'll quickly learn the exact speed and engine rpm where you can place the car in a lower gear. It becomes second nature stab clutch, place gearbox in neutral, blip throttle, intrinsically feeling the point where engine speed matches gearbox, and elegant slide it into a lower gear.
I've made this overly simplistic, but it's the general idea. Always remember to place the car into gear, as opposed to forcing it into gear. Done correctly, you can feel the precise moment through the shifter when the car will go into another gear. This is easier on a RWD vehicle, as it's easier to feel the transmission movement through the shift lever. FWD and rear mounted gear boxes are a little harder to learn.
I've driven this way for thirty years and have never destroyed a gearbox. I've driven this manner with my daily drivers and collector vehicles alike, as well of course the thirteen and eighteen speed Peterbilts where the use of a clutch is even discouraged at times. Is it tough to learn? Absolutely, but get the hang of it and your shifting become seamless and hardly noticeable.
Terry
But I'll let you know how I learned, and how I've taught others (that shouldn't be doing it either). First off, there is no need to depress a clutch to the floor to disengage or engage a gear selection. Most hydraulic clutches have clamping force only at the top portion of their travel. When I learn a particular vehicle (as each one is different) is first get used to the clutch travel and see where the engagement point is. I start by using the clutch in the normal fashion to take out of gear and place it into another. Again, only depressing the clutch only to the point where it disengages. I then use the clutch to take the car from gear, place the car in neutral, depress the clutch once more and put it into gear. I guess I should mention I'm doing this while upshifting. This is done a number of times, using less clutch each time before shifting into a higher gear. Generally, you will feel some resistance each time less clutch is used. Instead of using more clutch to overcome this resistance, either take the car out of gear earlier or later before moving to the next gear. Do this a number of times, and you'll learn when it generally has the least resistance. When you discover the point where the vehicle is most comfortable moving from one gear to another, still continue using the clutch to put the car in gear, although less each time. Eventually you'll find you are just stabbing the clutch, and soon after you'll discover you're not using the clutch at all except to take the car out of gear (very important).
Downshifting is the same process, except you blip the throttle going from gear to another. To properly learn this, while shifting into a lower gear gently raise the engine speed while slightly depressing the clutch. Again, you'll quickly learn where the transmission is most comfortable going into gear. Experiment with engine speed instead of using more clutch. Once this is mastered you'll quickly learn the exact speed and engine rpm where you can place the car in a lower gear. It becomes second nature stab clutch, place gearbox in neutral, blip throttle, intrinsically feeling the point where engine speed matches gearbox, and elegant slide it into a lower gear.
I've made this overly simplistic, but it's the general idea. Always remember to place the car into gear, as opposed to forcing it into gear. Done correctly, you can feel the precise moment through the shifter when the car will go into another gear. This is easier on a RWD vehicle, as it's easier to feel the transmission movement through the shift lever. FWD and rear mounted gear boxes are a little harder to learn.
I've driven this way for thirty years and have never destroyed a gearbox. I've driven this manner with my daily drivers and collector vehicles alike, as well of course the thirteen and eighteen speed Peterbilts where the use of a clutch is even discouraged at times. Is it tough to learn? Absolutely, but get the hang of it and your shifting become seamless and hardly noticeable.
Terry
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tmnhs81 (06-25-2011)
06-24-2011, 01:49 PM
#57
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Paddle shifters were the 'consolation prize' for my wagon
06-24-2011, 01:54 PM
#58
Registered Member
Terry and I differ with the topic of shifting without using the clutch for one major reason. Not doing it correctly or making a mistake while doing it can cause some serious damage to one's transmission.
Yes, I can also upshift and downshift without using the clutch and have done this when the need arose, such as a broken clutch cable on a car when I was 19. But I avoid telling or teaching people to do this because it does take a solid knowledge of how a manual transmission operates and a fair amount of practice. Things can break and I personally don't want to be the one who helps someone break them. However, if one is of the mind to learn this technique, then by all means do so.
A few of you seem to think that today's manual transmissions are miles ahead of those of, say, the 60's and that just isn't so. A Muncie 4-speed is superior to a Honda 6-speed in terms of strength, durability, and longevity. And once again folks, synchronizers and synchronized transmissions are NOT new. They've been around longer than most of you have been alive.
Lastly, if you don't wish to learn some of these techniques then don't. But don't believe for a moment that employing them is not going to make a difference. The manual transmission in the 3G TL has already proven itself to be weak and unreliable with the third gear set and possibly other gears as well (such as second). So anything one can do to decrease wear is going to be beneficial. But like I said earlier; your car and your money. How and what you do with both are your business.
Yes, I can also upshift and downshift without using the clutch and have done this when the need arose, such as a broken clutch cable on a car when I was 19. But I avoid telling or teaching people to do this because it does take a solid knowledge of how a manual transmission operates and a fair amount of practice. Things can break and I personally don't want to be the one who helps someone break them. However, if one is of the mind to learn this technique, then by all means do so.
A few of you seem to think that today's manual transmissions are miles ahead of those of, say, the 60's and that just isn't so. A Muncie 4-speed is superior to a Honda 6-speed in terms of strength, durability, and longevity. And once again folks, synchronizers and synchronized transmissions are NOT new. They've been around longer than most of you have been alive.
Lastly, if you don't wish to learn some of these techniques then don't. But don't believe for a moment that employing them is not going to make a difference. The manual transmission in the 3G TL has already proven itself to be weak and unreliable with the third gear set and possibly other gears as well (such as second). So anything one can do to decrease wear is going to be beneficial. But like I said earlier; your car and your money. How and what you do with both are your business.
06-24-2011, 02:03 PM
#59
Team Owner
06-24-2011, 02:03 PM
#60
Registered Member
OK. First off, I recommend no one do this. Don't bother to even try. How I do it should not be learned by anyone. Ever.
But I'll let you know how I learned, and how I've taught others (that shouldn't be doing it either). First off, there is no need to depress a clutch to the floor to disengage or engage a gear selection. Most hydraulic clutches have clamping force only at the top portion of their travel. When I learn a particular vehicle (as each one is different) is first get used to the clutch travel and see where the engagement point is. I start by using the clutch in the normal fashion to take out of gear and place it into another. Again, only depressing the clutch only to the point where it disengages. I then use the clutch to take the car from gear, place the car in neutral, depress the clutch once more and put it into gear. I guess I should mention I'm doing this while upshifting. This is done a number of times, using less clutch each time before shifting into a higher gear. Generally, you will feel some resistance each time less clutch is used. Instead of using more clutch to overcome this resistance, either take the car out of gear earlier or later before moving to the next gear. Do this a number of times, and you'll learn when it generally has the least resistance. When you discover the point where the vehicle is most comfortable moving from one gear to another, still continue using the clutch to put the car in gear, although less each time. Eventually you'll find you are just stabbing the clutch, and soon after you'll discover you're not using the clutch at all except to take the car out of gear (very important).
Downshifting is the same process, except you blip the throttle going from gear to another. To properly learn this, while shifting into a lower gear gently raise the engine speed while slightly depressing the clutch. Again, you'll quickly learn where the transmission is most comfortable going into gear. Experiment with engine speed instead of using more clutch. Once this is mastered you'll quickly learn the exact speed and engine rpm where you can place the car in a lower gear. It becomes second nature stab clutch, place gearbox in neutral, blip throttle, intrinsically feeling the point where engine speed matches gearbox, and elegant slide it into a lower gear.
I've made this overly simplistic, but it's the general idea. Always remember to place the car into gear, as opposed to forcing it into gear. Done correctly, you can feel the precise moment through the shifter when the car will go into another gear. This is easier on a RWD vehicle, as it's easier to feel the transmission movement through the shift lever. FWD and rear mounted gear boxes are a little harder to learn.
I've driven this way for thirty years and have never destroyed a gearbox. I've driven this manner with my daily drivers and collector vehicles alike, as well of course the thirteen and eighteen speed Peterbilts where the use of a clutch is even discouraged at times. Is it tough to learn? Absolutely, but get the hang of it and your shifting become seamless and hardly noticeable.
Terry
But I'll let you know how I learned, and how I've taught others (that shouldn't be doing it either). First off, there is no need to depress a clutch to the floor to disengage or engage a gear selection. Most hydraulic clutches have clamping force only at the top portion of their travel. When I learn a particular vehicle (as each one is different) is first get used to the clutch travel and see where the engagement point is. I start by using the clutch in the normal fashion to take out of gear and place it into another. Again, only depressing the clutch only to the point where it disengages. I then use the clutch to take the car from gear, place the car in neutral, depress the clutch once more and put it into gear. I guess I should mention I'm doing this while upshifting. This is done a number of times, using less clutch each time before shifting into a higher gear. Generally, you will feel some resistance each time less clutch is used. Instead of using more clutch to overcome this resistance, either take the car out of gear earlier or later before moving to the next gear. Do this a number of times, and you'll learn when it generally has the least resistance. When you discover the point where the vehicle is most comfortable moving from one gear to another, still continue using the clutch to put the car in gear, although less each time. Eventually you'll find you are just stabbing the clutch, and soon after you'll discover you're not using the clutch at all except to take the car out of gear (very important).
Downshifting is the same process, except you blip the throttle going from gear to another. To properly learn this, while shifting into a lower gear gently raise the engine speed while slightly depressing the clutch. Again, you'll quickly learn where the transmission is most comfortable going into gear. Experiment with engine speed instead of using more clutch. Once this is mastered you'll quickly learn the exact speed and engine rpm where you can place the car in a lower gear. It becomes second nature stab clutch, place gearbox in neutral, blip throttle, intrinsically feeling the point where engine speed matches gearbox, and elegant slide it into a lower gear.
I've made this overly simplistic, but it's the general idea. Always remember to place the car into gear, as opposed to forcing it into gear. Done correctly, you can feel the precise moment through the shifter when the car will go into another gear. This is easier on a RWD vehicle, as it's easier to feel the transmission movement through the shift lever. FWD and rear mounted gear boxes are a little harder to learn.
I've driven this way for thirty years and have never destroyed a gearbox. I've driven this manner with my daily drivers and collector vehicles alike, as well of course the thirteen and eighteen speed Peterbilts where the use of a clutch is even discouraged at times. Is it tough to learn? Absolutely, but get the hang of it and your shifting become seamless and hardly noticeable.
Terry
The 3G TL clutch achieves initial engagement early on in the pedal takeup. There is enough clamping pressure exerted to move the car well before reaching the top of the takeup arc.
There are two ways in which one can determine an accurate feel of where initial engagement takes place. One is to jack up the front of the car at the center jack point and have someone watch your front tires as you begin to release the clutch pedal. As soon as they start to move, that is your initial engagement point.
Another way to do this is to fully depress the clutch then move the shifter towards first gear but halt in that smooth part of the travel between getting out of neutral and actually slipping it into first gear. Once there, let out the clutch a little and very carefully move the shifter towards first gear until you hearing slight grinding. Now while keeping the shifter in this position depress the clutch and release a little, noting where the grinding stops and starts again. That is your initial engagement point. I most always advise people NOT to do this because it is just too easy to screw up and damage something.
06-24-2011, 02:16 PM
#61
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I dont pretend be a pro driver amatuer or otherwise...therefore my heel toe abilities arent really practiced.
With that said, I did a track day at the infield at CA Speedway, 13 turns. We all had pedigreed instructors from the bmw scca club.
I never heeled toed once and I never lost my car. It wasn't "needed"
I'm not saying I couldnt have yielded even better times and control if I had been practiced at doing it. But I also wasnt anywhere near slowest out there in a group of 25 other Challengers, many of whom were much more experienced drivers.
So, I say you're wrong.
06-24-2011, 02:21 PM
#62
Registered Member
I dont pretend be a pro driver amatuer or otherwise...therefore my heel toe abilities arent really practiced.
With that said, I did a track day at the infield at CA Speedway, 13 turns. We all had pedigreed instructors from the bmw scca club.
I never heeled toed once and I never lost my car. It wasn't "needed"
I'm not saying I couldnt have yielded even better times and control if I had been practiced at doing it. But I also wasnt anywhere near slowest out there in a group of 25 other Challengers, many of whom were much more experienced drivers.
So, I say you're wrong.
With that said, I did a track day at the infield at CA Speedway, 13 turns. We all had pedigreed instructors from the bmw scca club.
I never heeled toed once and I never lost my car. It wasn't "needed"
I'm not saying I couldnt have yielded even better times and control if I had been practiced at doing it. But I also wasnt anywhere near slowest out there in a group of 25 other Challengers, many of whom were much more experienced drivers.
So, I say you're wrong.
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Sarlacc (06-24-2011)
06-24-2011, 02:23 PM
#63
Three Wheelin'
^^ I must be old and stubborn and unwilling to change but you guys are making it way more complex than it is. No wonder more an more modern cars are getting rid of the stick.
06-24-2011, 02:26 PM
#64
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For what it's worth Sarlacc, I never mastered heel and toeing and have never seen or had the need to do this. I can double clutch pretty quick so I don't see where heel and toeing would serve me well. I don't fault anyone who does this or who wants to learn because I see it another tool in their driver's toolbox for which they might want to avail themselves.
At some point I'll make/have the time to practice and utilize...but until then, they are not absolutely needed to have fun and run the vehicle.
And to add to my last post...I autocrossed for about two seasons a while back...never heel toed then either.
06-24-2011, 02:27 PM
#65
Team Owner
I dont pretend be a pro driver amatuer or otherwise...therefore my heel toe abilities arent really practiced.
With that said, I did a track day at the infield at CA Speedway, 13 turns. We all had pedigreed instructors from the bmw scca club.
I never heeled toed once and I never lost my car. It wasn't "needed"
I'm not saying I couldnt have yielded even better times and control if I had been practiced at doing it. But I also wasnt anywhere near slowest out there in a group of 25 other Challengers, many of whom were much more experienced drivers.
So, I say you're wrong.
With that said, I did a track day at the infield at CA Speedway, 13 turns. We all had pedigreed instructors from the bmw scca club.
I never heeled toed once and I never lost my car. It wasn't "needed"
I'm not saying I couldnt have yielded even better times and control if I had been practiced at doing it. But I also wasnt anywhere near slowest out there in a group of 25 other Challengers, many of whom were much more experienced drivers.
So, I say you're wrong.
It is all about how you enter the turn and how late you want to brake. That is pretty much all Heel and toe is good for.
for everyday driving, it is not necessary but it makes the whole thing more smooth.
i am no pro driver either but for me.. straight = rev match, turning = heel and toe.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 06-24-2011 at 02:32 PM.
06-24-2011, 02:27 PM
#66
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Its hard to wrap your brain around it just sitting and reading about it. You need to be sitting a car and going through the motions.
06-24-2011, 02:39 PM
#67
Three Wheelin'
Once you are sitting in a car and actually attempting to do it, its not really complex at all, it just takes practice to become proficient.
Its hard to wrap your brain around it just sitting and reading about it. You need to be sitting a car and going through the motions.
Its hard to wrap your brain around it just sitting and reading about it. You need to be sitting a car and going through the motions.
06-24-2011, 02:40 PM
#68
The Dumb One
iTrader: (1)
Haven't a clue. Just thought you might want to know that applying any pressure to your shifter while driving can cause it to slip out of gear if other factors are at play. If doing this while in neutral and sitting at a light, you risk engaging the synchronizers. Just imparting some information you might find helpful.
my car does not know when my hand is around the shifter im sure of it..
it might as well be alone.. my hand is there for emergency shifting purposes...
06-24-2011, 02:53 PM
#69
AZ Community Team
+1, brakes are far easier and cheaper to replace than a clutch.As for me, I lift off the gas pedal since on my TL there is a fuel cutoff with the engine revs above 850 (?) RPM. When the revs get down to ~1K I push the clutch in and shift into neutral. If it's a long ways in the distance I may shift into neutral and coast to the stop.
06-24-2011, 02:53 PM
#70
Terry;
The 3G TL clutch achieves initial engagement early on in the pedal takeup. There is enough clamping pressure exerted to move the car well before reaching the top of the takeup arc.
There are two ways in which one can determine an accurate feel of where initial engagement takes place. One is to jack up the front of the car at the center jack point and have someone watch your front tires as you begin to release the clutch pedal. As soon as they start to move, that is your initial engagement point.
Another way to do this is to fully depress the clutch then move the shifter towards first gear but halt in that smooth part of the travel between getting out of neutral and actually slipping it into first gear. Once there, let out the clutch a little and very carefully move the shifter towards first gear until you hearing slight grinding. Now while keeping the shifter in this position depress the clutch and release a little, noting where the grinding stops and starts again. That is your initial engagement point. I most always advise people NOT to do this because it is just too easy to screw up and damage something.
The 3G TL clutch achieves initial engagement early on in the pedal takeup. There is enough clamping pressure exerted to move the car well before reaching the top of the takeup arc.
There are two ways in which one can determine an accurate feel of where initial engagement takes place. One is to jack up the front of the car at the center jack point and have someone watch your front tires as you begin to release the clutch pedal. As soon as they start to move, that is your initial engagement point.
Another way to do this is to fully depress the clutch then move the shifter towards first gear but halt in that smooth part of the travel between getting out of neutral and actually slipping it into first gear. Once there, let out the clutch a little and very carefully move the shifter towards first gear until you hearing slight grinding. Now while keeping the shifter in this position depress the clutch and release a little, noting where the grinding stops and starts again. That is your initial engagement point. I most always advise people NOT to do this because it is just too easy to screw up and damage something.
I also have to disagree that clutchless shifting is too much of a risk to learn. A surprising number of friends and acquaintances alike prefer it to "regular" shifting. All have been doing it for a number of years. Once learned, it is an extremely satisfying and seamless way of driving a car with a manual gearbox.
A Muncie my friend? Strong? Durable?
A Ford Toploader, maybe, but a Muncie? (Just a little ribbing)
Terry
06-24-2011, 02:53 PM
#71
Registered Member
It's not at all complex. I've been driving a manual transmission as I have described since I learned these techniques in my teens which makes it around 47 years. It really is quite simple. Perhaps now is a good time for you to learn this.
Last edited by SouthernBoy; 06-24-2011 at 03:00 PM.
06-24-2011, 02:59 PM
#72
Registered Member
I realize we differ at times Paul, and I respect your opinion. I can easily feel, however, where the engagement point is on most vehicles. Your experiences may differ, as I imagine we have driven different cars. The take up on my 6MT Accord is actually the top half. Somewhat surprisingly, the Accord was extremely easy to master clutchless driving.
I also have to disagree that clutchless shifting is too much of a risk to learn. A surprising number of friends and acquaintances alike prefer it to "regular" shifting. All have been doing it for a number of years. Once learned, it is an extremely satisfying and seamless way of driving a car with a manual gearbox.
A Muncie my friend? Strong? Durable? A Ford Toploader, maybe, but a Muncie? (Just a little ribbing)
Terry
I also have to disagree that clutchless shifting is too much of a risk to learn. A surprising number of friends and acquaintances alike prefer it to "regular" shifting. All have been doing it for a number of years. Once learned, it is an extremely satisfying and seamless way of driving a car with a manual gearbox.
A Muncie my friend? Strong? Durable?
A Ford Toploader, maybe, but a Muncie? (Just a little ribbing)Terry
As for clutchless shifting, I don't tell or teach about this because of the reasons stated. I know how to do this and that is good enough for me.
06-24-2011, 03:04 PM
#73
Come on, you KNOW a Muncie is one hell of a manual gearbox. I have watch thousands of passes on local quarter miles with mid-60's supercars pulling speed shifts (like me) or power shifts and I don't ever recall seeing a Muncie fail. Rear ends, U-joints, drive shafts, rear axles... all yes, but not the transmission.
As for clutchless shifting, I don't tell or teach about this because of the reasons stated. I know how to do this and that is good enough for me.
As for clutchless shifting, I don't tell or teach about this because of the reasons stated. I know how to do this and that is good enough for me.
I'd still run a Toploader over a Rockcrusher.
And rear ends? Axles? Failing? I agree. Not like the Ford nine inch.
Terry
Last edited by teranfon; 06-24-2011 at 03:07 PM.
06-24-2011, 03:15 PM
#75
Three Wheelin'
06-24-2011, 03:17 PM
#76
For example if he's in 5th and he sees the light red ahead so he'll Clutch in, put the car in neutral, clutch out and then brake. If the light turns green then he'll clutch in, 3rd gear, clutch out and then accelerate.
I never had any clutch issues.
I will say maybe you guys can explain this. On the CLS, I am unable to coast in 1st gear. The car will not pull it's own weigh in 1st gear like other manuals I have driven. It will stall unless I give it gas or become very jerky. This is a PITA in traffic. And it's just not my CLS the one before it did it too.
06-24-2011, 03:29 PM
#78
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
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I have no problems idling in first
oh torque, I love you.
oh torque, I love you.
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Costco (06-26-2011)
06-24-2011, 03:37 PM
#79
Senior Moderator
Join Date: May 2000
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Me:
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3:49 - I rev match downshift and when I pulled into the pits just about all the staff took notice (because they heard it as I came in to the pits) and commented/complimented me on it when I got out...Guess not a lotta people have mad skillz like me there..
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3:49 - I rev match downshift and when I pulled into the pits just about all the staff took notice (because they heard it as I came in to the pits) and commented/complimented me on it when I got out...Guess not a lotta people have mad skillz like me there..
06-24-2011, 03:38 PM
#80
Registered Member
As I recall, the famed Rockcrusher (M22) would handle over 1300 lb/ft of torque. Not the 9-inch Ford rear is perhaps the best one out there. Nearly bullet proof.