Car hits Md. street-race crowd; 8 killed (was) Street-race crash kills 7 in crowd
#41
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#42
Originally Posted by SuperTrooper169
How do you know the Crown Vic didn't try to slow down? When you're traveling down the road at 50-60 mph you have a very small window of time to react. Factor in it was 3, almost 4, in the morning and the driver might have been tired... there's just so many factors here so let's just say until they do a full investigation we shouldn't jump to any conclusions about who is at fault and who isn't. The only thing we know for a fact is 8 people are dead no matter who is at fault.
Hypothetically, if this thread were about a group of 50 people crossing the highway in REALLY foggy weather, and the same people hit 8 people I'm sure we would all be blaming the driver now, wouldn't we? Or would we blame the fog?
We can only speculate for now and I'm certain that the Crown Vic driver didn't do it on purpose, but I just don't see anyway how they aren't at fault here. I'm not saying they should be charged with anything, but this tragedy could have been averted if they took another course of action.
These threads are made for speculation.... what are we gonna do, sit around and twiddle our thumbs while we wait for results and for statements to clear? Speculation makes it interesting.... otherwise all these threads would suck ass. I'm not making any outlandish theories or anything either.
#43
In the Mid-South meow
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Originally Posted by I Go To Costco
A small window indeed but then that still reflects poorly on the driver. If you're tired, and especially at 3 or 4 in the morning you shouldn't be driving anyway! And who knows, they could have been speeding at maybe 80-90+ (which is over the speed limit) and hit the brakes but they were still going too fast for the conditions, which resulted in the needless deaths of 8 people. I've had a few instances where I was too tired to drive and had other people take over, or I'd just park it somewhere safe and take a nap.
Originally Posted by I Go To Costco
Hypothetically, if this thread were about a group of 50 people crossing the highway in REALLY foggy weather, and the same people hit 8 people I'm sure we would all be blaming the driver now, wouldn't we? Or would we blame the fog?
Originally Posted by I Go To Costco
We can only speculate for now and I'm certain that the Crown Vic driver didn't do it on purpose, but I just don't see anyway how they aren't at fault here. I'm not saying they should be charged with anything, but this tragedy could have been averted if they took another course of action.
Originally Posted by I Go To Costco
These threads are made for speculation.... what are we gonna do, sit around and twiddle our thumbs while we wait for results and for statements to clear? Speculation makes it interesting.... otherwise all these threads would suck ass. I'm not making any outlandish theories or anything either.
#44
Originally Posted by SuperTrooper169
To say people shouldn't drive if they're tired is silly. If that was the case no one would make their Monday morning commute to work. But yeah, you shouldn't drive if you're so tired that you're falling asleep behind the wheel, but I wasn't saying maybe the driver was about to fall asleep or anything. My point is that there's multiple factors that can play into someone's reaction time. Someone driving at 1 PM during daylight probably has a better reaction time than that very same person driving in the dark at 3-4 AM. So does that mean no one should be driving in the dark and if they do they're doing something wrong and endangering people's lives? No. Also, what if the person was older. Does that mean because they're old they shouldn't be driving? No, it just means they don't have as quick a reaction as someone younger. What is a fact and what is known is that there were people standing in the middle of a highway in the dark. Are you ever antisipating people standing in the middle of a highway when you're crusing along at the speed limit? I don't.
Originally Posted by SuperTrooper169
Actually I'd blame the 50 people for crossing the highway in fog. In fact, even if there was no fog I'd blame anyone for standing in the middle of a highway where there could be a car coming. I honestly don't think smoke from burning rubber can be compared to REALLY foggy weather anyway.
Originally Posted by SuperTrooper169
That doesn't make any sense. Why would you not charge them if they were at fault? If they were at fault then they deserve to have action taken against them. I don't think drunk drivers go out to intentionally kill people, but the truth is it happens and when it does they need to be held accountable because they could've averted it by not driving after drinking. Again, that's why you leave it to the investigators to do what they do best and determine what the true cause of the accident was.
What you're saying doesn't make sense. Driver A is drunk enough to sway off course and kill a pedestrian on a sidewalk. Driver A is charged for manslaughter. I agree. Driver B is tired enough to sway off course and kill a pedestrian on the sidewalk. Driver B is charged for manslaughter. I agree with both cases, don't you? Actually, I'm beginning to think the Crown Vic driver should be charged with something, although manslaughter is too severe because of the road conditions. Nonetheless they still had poor judgment and should attend driving school at the least.
Originally Posted by SuperTrooper169
No, I never thought you were being outlandish, but dude, you're 19 years old. You've been driving for what, 3 years? Have you even ever been in an accident before? If not then when it does happen you'll realize that even though you think you're always in control, sometimes you aren't. I thought I would never be in a sitation where I wouldn't have quick enough reaction time, but truth be told things happen much faster than you think they do, so that's why I think it's a little unfair to start blaming the person the Crown Vic for doing something wrong until they were proven to have done something wrong. And no, not all threads are about speculation and entertainment. I don't think the OP started this thread to entertain anyone, it was more to educate about the dangers of street racing and for people to pay their respects to the deceased.
I don't think threads like these would be interesting at all (I think it is interesting now) if it was just 3-5 pages of , condolences to the family, etc. That's great and all but at one point it just turns to clutter. Some topics are almost certain to deviate, but in this case we're still on-topic. I'm a cautious driver so I'm just examining the situation how I'd see it. Instantly when I read about the cloud of smoke I was like wtf, why were they going so fast? Some things you just respond to instantly, like seeing someone's brake lights. I don't see how you can shrug off a big ass cloud of smoke.
Put yourself in the Crown Vic driver's shoes. If you were them, and you saw a cloud of smoke (that you couldn't see through) on the highway, would you drive through it? Damn right.... next time you'll either slow to a crawl, stop completely or even pull over. You can bet for damn sure short of brain damage or the influence of drugs that they won't be hauling ass through a thick cloud of smoke.
We should stop feeling bad and making excuses for the driver of the Crown Vic and think about what went wrong with them.... the focal point is the street racers, but they weren't the ones who plowed through a cloud of smoke and shortly thereafter, a crowd of people. Excuses are excuses, but when people die, there are no excuses.
#46
Keeping emos out of
Originally Posted by MWalsh9152
I cant believe the dumbass' were actually standing on a smoke filled highway in the middle of the night? Darwinism at its very best.
#47
^ LOL @ people of advanced age
I'm kinda numb to the these people's deaths. that's what happens when you support this type dumb shit.
I'm kinda numb to the these people's deaths. that's what happens when you support this type dumb shit.
#49
Keeping emos out of
Originally Posted by phile
^ LOL @ people of advanced age
I'm kinda numb to the these people's deaths. that's what happens when you support this type dumb shit.
I'm kinda numb to the these people's deaths. that's what happens when you support this type dumb shit.
#51
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I love how everyone is blaming the street racers and the bystanders. Street racing didn't cause this incident. The majority of the blame lies with the idiot in the Crown Vic driving WITHOUT his lights. I wouldn't doubt that the Police cite him in the coming days. I wouldn't be shocked to hear that alcohol played a factor as well.
#52
Too Fast TOO FURIOUS
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Originally Posted by goose25
One of the dead people is listed as being 61, you would think that someone of that age would have a little more common sense than to be standing around a dimly lit highway near dawn watching an illegal race. He should have had his ass at home eating malt-o-meal or something.
#53
Originally Posted by Maximized
I love how everyone is blaming the street racers and the bystanders. Street racing didn't cause this incident. The majority of the blame lies with the idiot in the Crown Vic driving WITHOUT his lights. I wouldn't doubt that the Police cite him in the coming days. I wouldn't be shocked to hear that alcohol played a factor as well.
People instantly see "street race" and blame the street racers for everything no matter the situation. And I seemed to have missed the part where the article said they were driving without their lights... that settles it. That is a fact, and now there's no doubt in my mind that they should be charged.
#54
Senior Moderator
ohh.. now that's a little (important) detail I missed...
#56
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Originally Posted by JJaber06
On the news last night, they said it hasnt been confirmed if they were driving with the lights off...
Like I said, I wouldn't doubt that alcohol was involved. The driver should be held somewhat accountable for not slowing for conditions
#57
Senior Moderator
If the driver did not have his lights on, and was driving in the dark, well that's pretty dumb.
#58
Racer
Being a MD resident, the outcome doesn't surprise me.
PG County, and MD State Police have been working on curbing street racing for years. Unfortunately, there are members on this forum who have been doing the same thing, bragging about it, and disregarding the safety of others on the road.
The situation is horrible, and it's a shame the dead have to tell us this story.
PG County, and MD State Police have been working on curbing street racing for years. Unfortunately, there are members on this forum who have been doing the same thing, bragging about it, and disregarding the safety of others on the road.
The situation is horrible, and it's a shame the dead have to tell us this story.
#59
Originally Posted by Maximized
I love how everyone is blaming the street racers and the bystanders. Street racing didn't cause this incident. The majority of the blame lies with the idiot in the Crown Vic driving WITHOUT his lights. I wouldn't doubt that the Police cite him in the coming days. I wouldn't be shocked to hear that alcohol played a factor as well.
#60
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Originally Posted by phile
Ummm....if they weren't standing around watching the damn street racers, idiot in the Crown Vic without his lights would've ran into a pole or something else, and not them. So yeah, i still blame them.
#61
Fahrvergnügen'd
Originally Posted by Maximized
I don't know the road, but it wasn't a highway from the looks of it. Standing next to a road isn't a crime. The driver of the Crown Vic should have slowed down, simple as that. If you see smoke, fog, etc., it's common sense to slow down. I am not blaming the driver entirely. All I am saying is that he was also at fault it appears from everything that I've read.
For people to be standing on the side of the road watching this on a highway of this size, I'd say there's a huge inbreeding problem in that area or perhaps there's a high concentration of lead in their water or paint.
#62
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Originally Posted by Paclark01
Being a MD resident, the outcome doesn't surprise me.
PG County, and MD State Police have been working on curbing street racing for years. Unfortunately, there are members on this forum who have been doing the same thing, bragging about it, and disregarding the safety of others on the road.
The situation is horrible, and it's a shame the dead have to tell us this story.
PG County, and MD State Police have been working on curbing street racing for years. Unfortunately, there are members on this forum who have been doing the same thing, bragging about it, and disregarding the safety of others on the road.
The situation is horrible, and it's a shame the dead have to tell us this story.
And to add to it Budd's Creek Dragstrip is nearby.
#64
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I figured I'd jump in here on the fog issue. M any people actually speed up in fog because creates a visual illusion of slow motion.
To add to that, think of any main road in your town. At that time in the morning would you expect a crowd to be in the middle of the damn road?
To add to that, think of any main road in your town. At that time in the morning would you expect a crowd to be in the middle of the damn road?
#65
Too Fast TOO FURIOUS
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A car plowed into a group of street-racing fans obscured by a cloud of tire smoke on a highway...
the racers should have organized the races on a track - legal and safe.
the crown vic driver should have slowed down when he/she saw dense smoke and smell of burning tires.
Last edited by enigmaos; 02-18-2008 at 01:44 PM.
#66
Senior Moderator
did you all see this video?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/16/dra...ap/index.html#
what do you think now?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/16/dra...ap/index.html#
what do you think now?
#68
Senior Moderator
hehe.. what do you mean, you don't trust CNN?
#70
Senior Moderator
yea
#72
Senior Moderator
yeah. and like many other big incidents like this, we will find out more details over time.
#73
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Originally Posted by srika
If the driver did not have his lights on, and was driving in the dark, well that's pretty dumb.
if he had his lights on, it'd be even dumber for running into a group of people.
I've admitted on this board that i've street raced (not the i see you on the freeway shit). But the shut down an industrial park or an empty highway and run them. I've seen accidents don't get me wrong, but i've also seen people die in the stands at races at the track.
Street racing is where drag racing started, it'll never go away (it is why there is a performance aftermarket industry). Simply for the fact that there also aren't that many tracks around.
We've had the argument before, but splitting lanes on a hwy and running two cars side by side on an empty road are much different things in my opinion.
It's funny people bring up the age.....go head out to Sylmar around midnight on a Tuesday night and check out the street races. Most the guys AREN'T under 40....and i'm not talking about honda civics, i'm talking about 8-9 second cars running on an empty road.
#74
6 of the 8 deceased...
Mark Courtney, 33
Daryl Wills, 38
Maycol Lopez, 20
Blaine Briscoe, 49
William Gaines, 61
Ervin Gardner, 39
My opinion that I wrote on my site...
http://www.mdstreetscene.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=14820
http://www.mdstreetscene.com/special...cokeek-MD.html
If there wasn't street racing, there wouldn't be a crowd of people in the street. Street racing caused the people to be in the street. There would be no accident with 8 people dead w/ out the street racing. End of story.
Point being, those people who died, died because they were in a street watching a street race under their own accord. Yes, they wanted to watch it. No, the racers didn't hold a gun to their head and demand they stand in the street. Sure, the people in the road are at fault for what happened. And it sucks that they died in such a worthless way.
However, the racers are also to blame for what happened. They created an illegal situation in which they saw that many others were witnessing. Hindsight is 20/20, but maybe if the racers cared about others safety, they would have not agreed to race with a big crowd on the side of the road that eventually spilled out into the road. Everybody seems to be making a big deal about how these races are "organized" and cars are trailered in and the people are mature and blah blah. But I suppose in the heat of the excitement, you aren't really thinking about anything other than that 1/4 mile straight away... In a street race on public roads you CAN'T do that. On a track, sure, you can completely focus on your car, your launch, etc. without worrying about people/animals/cars darting out in front of you.
I still hold my belief that if there wasn't a street race going on, there would not have been a crowd of people in the street and there wouldn't be 8 people dead from watching street racing.
In response to someone else's comment.
Agreed. BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT. People need to stop creating made-up "what ifs". What happened happened. It happened because they were gathering to watch an illegal street race at 3 in the morning on a public road. Even if the driver of the white Crown Vic was drunk, high, 2ft tall, and had a stuck accelerator pedal... there would be no problem with that had the road been clear!!! But instead there was a crowd gathered!!! 8 people are now dead. All of this could have been avoided.
I wasn't speaking of "blame" in terms of law, I was speaking more in terms of personal accountability. However, I am not familiar enough with the law to say whether or not they are legally responsible. That's for a judge to decide. But on a human level, law aside, I believe those racers have a tremendous part in the deaths. And if I were one of those 2 racers, I would feel absolutely guilty for being a part of the deaths of 8 people who were watching me partake in illegal activity... knowing that if I would have stopped to think for a second... I could have forgone the race or demanded that the race take place without spectators. (If it was really me, it wouldn't have happened at all.)
Well, that's a tough call. But I would say that I do agree with that statement and I would put blame on every single person who launched on that road that night. But, the ultimate fate was decided by those 2 racers and that single race. That's when people died. That's what those guys have to live with. And unfortunately, they might have to pay for their actions...
But we also need to find out the whole truth about this white Crown Vic and squash any rumors/hear-say about lights out, drunk, running from police, etc. The fate and blame could change a bit depending on the factors revolving around the Crown Vic.
Opinion from a ex-police officer who is current with police "happenings"
Mark Courtney, 33
Daryl Wills, 38
Maycol Lopez, 20
Blaine Briscoe, 49
William Gaines, 61
Ervin Gardner, 39
My opinion that I wrote on my site...
http://www.mdstreetscene.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=14820
http://www.mdstreetscene.com/special...cokeek-MD.html
If there wasn't street racing, there wouldn't be a crowd of people in the street. Street racing caused the people to be in the street. There would be no accident with 8 people dead w/ out the street racing. End of story.
Point being, those people who died, died because they were in a street watching a street race under their own accord. Yes, they wanted to watch it. No, the racers didn't hold a gun to their head and demand they stand in the street. Sure, the people in the road are at fault for what happened. And it sucks that they died in such a worthless way.
However, the racers are also to blame for what happened. They created an illegal situation in which they saw that many others were witnessing. Hindsight is 20/20, but maybe if the racers cared about others safety, they would have not agreed to race with a big crowd on the side of the road that eventually spilled out into the road. Everybody seems to be making a big deal about how these races are "organized" and cars are trailered in and the people are mature and blah blah. But I suppose in the heat of the excitement, you aren't really thinking about anything other than that 1/4 mile straight away... In a street race on public roads you CAN'T do that. On a track, sure, you can completely focus on your car, your launch, etc. without worrying about people/animals/cars darting out in front of you.
I still hold my belief that if there wasn't a street race going on, there would not have been a crowd of people in the street and there wouldn't be 8 people dead from watching street racing.
In response to someone else's comment.
Agreed. BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT. People need to stop creating made-up "what ifs". What happened happened. It happened because they were gathering to watch an illegal street race at 3 in the morning on a public road. Even if the driver of the white Crown Vic was drunk, high, 2ft tall, and had a stuck accelerator pedal... there would be no problem with that had the road been clear!!! But instead there was a crowd gathered!!! 8 people are now dead. All of this could have been avoided.
I wasn't speaking of "blame" in terms of law, I was speaking more in terms of personal accountability. However, I am not familiar enough with the law to say whether or not they are legally responsible. That's for a judge to decide. But on a human level, law aside, I believe those racers have a tremendous part in the deaths. And if I were one of those 2 racers, I would feel absolutely guilty for being a part of the deaths of 8 people who were watching me partake in illegal activity... knowing that if I would have stopped to think for a second... I could have forgone the race or demanded that the race take place without spectators. (If it was really me, it wouldn't have happened at all.)
Well, that's a tough call. But I would say that I do agree with that statement and I would put blame on every single person who launched on that road that night. But, the ultimate fate was decided by those 2 racers and that single race. That's when people died. That's what those guys have to live with. And unfortunately, they might have to pay for their actions...
But we also need to find out the whole truth about this white Crown Vic and squash any rumors/hear-say about lights out, drunk, running from police, etc. The fate and blame could change a bit depending on the factors revolving around the Crown Vic.
Opinion from a ex-police officer who is current with police "happenings"
At fault:
The two street racers for holding a street race on a public highway.... period
The spectators for watching the above listed event.... then stepping into the street.
The crown vic for failure to control speed to avoid collision.
Most fault lies as follows
70% with the street racers for holding the event / racing
25% Spectators for watching said event and entering the street
5% Crown Vic for "failure to control speed to avoid collision"
Period.... this is how the law will look at it.
The two street racers for holding a street race on a public highway.... period
The spectators for watching the above listed event.... then stepping into the street.
The crown vic for failure to control speed to avoid collision.
Most fault lies as follows
70% with the street racers for holding the event / racing
25% Spectators for watching said event and entering the street
5% Crown Vic for "failure to control speed to avoid collision"
Period.... this is how the law will look at it.
Also.... if it was an UNDERCOVER car.... you would have heard about it right away.... no lights in the grill and no radios in the car.... it was a random driver.... no conspiracy
Driver has not been charged with anything.... you would have heard if he was drunk the next day.....
Driver has not been charged with anything.... you would have heard if he was drunk the next day.....
#75
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by jayunsplanet
If there wasn't street racing, there wouldn't be a crowd of people in the street. Street racing caused the people to be in the street. There would be no accident with 8 people dead w/ out the street racing. End of story.
#76
Needs more Lemon Pledge
They will send the headlights off to a lab to determine from the filaments if they were on or off at the time of collision. None the less, the racers and spectators are the ones to be blamed for this tragedy.
#77
teh Senior Instigator
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I'm just curious.....let's say there is an accident on the hwy, and about 20 people out on the road helping out with the accident. A car somehow doesn't see it....goes plowing into those 20 people....who is at fault?
#78
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by CLpower
I'm just curious.....let's say there is an accident on the hwy, and about 20 people out on the road helping out with the accident. A car somehow doesn't see it....goes plowing into those 20 people....who is at fault?
#79
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Originally Posted by srika
There would have been a traffic jam by the time 20 people got to the scene and were out on the highway helping. Sure an approaching driver could slam into cars in the jam - would it be their fault, yes. Also, street racing would not be involved. An accident, is an accident. Street racing is not an accident.
A crowd is a crowd...how you don't see a crowd is beyond me......running into either crowd would be the drivers fault IMO.
#80
Senior Moderator
without being there, do you have any idea how it looked for the Crown Vic driver as he approached?