vtechbrain

Sorry, I have used the terms image conscious and mentally deficient, my faux pas I just dont have time for phonies!!!!!!

vtechbrain

I'm sorry if the little dick thing may have caused you some anxiety! The fact is that the average Bimmer owner is not that weathy at all! In our society appearence is more important than reality (specially in california and florida). As a matter of fact the average incomes of Acuras and BMWs owners are essentially identical not withstanding the fact that BMW sells cars that are over twice the price of the most expensive Acura. So although broad characterizations are only that, they is always an undercurrent of truth in them! Maybe thats why you got ideas of reference regarding your own dick!

ColStripe

Hmm, if they are so well engineered how come BMW's and MBs are now some of the most unreliable cars on the road now (Consumer Reports). I think the mystique is fading...

1SICKLEX

Impossible. Why?
RSX-20k
TSX-27k
TL-35k
MDX-40k
RL-45k
NSX-90k (3 sold)
BMW-3 series (ya'll always complaining overpriced)30-60k (M3)
X3-40k
X5-45-65k
5 series-40-85k (M5)
6 series-70-85k
7 series-75-120k (760)
Z8-120k

Facts alone state that is impossible. Now of course there are those BMW owners possibly leaving beyond their means buying an expensive BMW whereas Acura owners and "Value" go hand in hand but there are those with all brands.
The fact is, BMWs prices pretty much START where Acura's ENDs.

johnc_22

I'll be in the market for a new car soon and I'll likely be choosing from amongst the TL, the 330i, the Legacy GT Ltd and maybe even a SAAB 9-3SS once I've sold my Viggen. That's why I'm here and this thread started out pretty useful. It's interesting how these comparison threads degenerate into sniping about the various qualities or lack thereof of the owners of the competing cars rather than the cars themselves. It's the same on every board and since I've been frequenting them all recently, it's pretty clear that every car has its advantages and in one area or another beats the other cars. I would imagine that many of those disparaging drivers of other cars have never driven the other car to see it from a different perspective, but then again that's the beauty of the anonymity the internet provides: you can say anything you want about anyone and never have to say

Drive it and enjoy it, whatever it is.

1SICKLEX

What has changed in the last 2 or 3 years is, there are almost no truly bad cars. Every carmaker has stepped it up a notch or two. This has been excellent for consumers. The used car market has NEVER been better. Every car maker chased BMW for adding a touch of sport and every car maker chased Lexus for reliability. Everyone is still getting better.

johnc_22

Agreed, there's never been a better time to be in the market for a sport-luxury ride. Believe it or not I've driven none of the cars I'm considering except the 9-3SS Arc as a loaner, but I've been studying the various boards to try to identify the known issues/gripes about the cars I'm considering. Reasons I'm selling my Viggen are the overly harsh ride and the rattles it produces, the clunky 5-speed (live in DOWNTOWN Atlanta now making this a constant PITA - I'm going auto...sigh), black paint (ugh, another constant PITA), the extremely low front spoiler and the fact that I can still get out of the Viggen with some good money for the whatever is next since it's still got a bit of warranty left. I do love the Viggen when I can drive it like it's meant to be, but in city traffic that's pretty seldom. In the mountains it's a grin-producing scream machine.

My goal will be to approach the dealers as if I'm interested in a demo or CPO version of the cars so that I can see how they age. My main concerns about the TL at this point are the seemingly unexplained shimmying between 30MPH-70MPH that many have experienced and the excessive rattles people have reported - I've already got a car that rattles plenty. I'll be surprised if I end up springing for the cost of the 330i, but you can bet if I do it won't be because of any status symbols or male deficiencies - it will be because it's the car that speaks to me more than the others. I'll always be a SAAB fan despite the painful depreciation but for about the same money I can have a TL, and for a bit less the Legacy GT Ltd since Nav is not high priority for me. I might even check out a G35 but I'd have to buy 2005 for the allegedly upgraded interior and that means very vew deals. I think the TL and 9-3SS are two of the best looking sedans available today, and clearly the TL comes with some neater features, lower TCO and better resale.

Later,

John

TLud

John, definitely post your thoughts/impressions once you've driven each of the cars you're considering. Those are all great cars, each with their advantages and disadvantages.

Once I adjusted to the turbo lag of the Subie, I really enjoyed it, and the interior of the Ltd. is quite nice for its class.

SergeyM

My bad. Now I know. Corolla must be a better engineered car than any Ferrari. It is more reliable for sure. BTW I've never heard of MB tranny failing at 6 - 10K miles. Not even in AMG cars. Can you imagine Acura building an auto tranny capable of dealing with 512 l/f of torque. That's what I call engineering not cup-holders or vice-activated navi (not produced by Acura anyway).

ColStripe

Lol Ferrari's? You said BMW's and MB's before. I'm talking regular cars here. Not Kompressor's and AMG's. Except for BMW's 3 Series (which is just an average reliability car) most BMW's and MB's stink now for not having problems.

I don't know about you but a car not breaking down speaks volumes about "engineering". Look at the facts. BMW 5 and 7 series suck for reliability and MB's are even worse. Look at the last Consumer Reports Car Issue and get educated. That is information from 1,000s of owners not just one person's opinion. I'll take thier facts backed up by data over your opinion anyday of the week.

Indecision

It's nice that everyone compares the TL to the 5 series but in actual fact the price range and market segment it really should be the TL and the 330. And yes the TL will blow the doors of the 330.

vtechbrain

I knew you couldn't read!!!!! My point exactly, Acura and BMW owners earning demographics are identical, despite that, the BMW folks are buying cars that are twice as expensive, ergo they are breaking the bank just to wear little propellers on their pretty bonets!

1SICKLEX

Impossible. No kidding just by looking at celebrities and athletes and millionaires with multiple BMWs there is no way demographics are the same. Maybe for the 3 series, not for the remainder of the lineup. BMW owners don't have the same demographics of Lexus or Benz.
I must say we have not provided any proof. But I know very wealthy people with BMWs. I don't know any truly wealthy person with an Acura. I see people that buy Acuras and then move up to BMWs. I do know the owner of an Acura dealership (and he is wealthy) lol.

And yes, there are a couple people here that went from a 5 to a Tl but that is the exception.

I just don't really see how the 2 demographics could be the same. Just the RSX by itself means tons of much younger kids and incomes.

TLud

You're entitled to your opinion, but any time you want to try to blow the doors off of my 330, you're welcome to try.

TLud

I'll take that risk though.

VQ35DE

It's actually V6 (TL) vs I6 (530i). But your post exposed a big performance gap between the 525/530i and the 545i. (And the V10 M5 is on a diff planet.) That said, I'd imagine that Bimmer will move to a more powerful I6 (either a detuned S54 or more tuned M54) in the 5-series. FWIW, BMW has a long history of "shifting" motors within a given chassis and I'm betting that the E60 will be no different.

IMHO, the TL's a nice car but doesnt have the "curb appeal" of the 5-series. However, the 5 is priced into oblivion. I saw a loaded 530i MSRP'd at $53G (OR the same as a TL w/Navi and a Civic LX combined.)

Apparently image carries A LOT of weight in American society.

JN99

As far as all the quoting of Consumer Reports, please. Their ratings are biased towards Japanese cars and often just plain wrong. Take the 2003 Nissan 350z as an example. It is highly rated (in fact a recommended pick) in CR but an absolute POS with many well known and documented problems. I got rid of mine after a little over a year and know several other people who did, or wanted to do the same. Maybe it was to be expected of a first year car, but to see the ratings in CR you'd think the car is a flawless gem. It isn't.

As for engineering you have engineering geared towards performance, and engineering geared towards reliability. Which do you prefer?

I owned a 328i before the Z and considered the TL in the list of replacement candidates. It's got gobs af value and wins best bang for the buck category hands down. But for set-of-the-pants driving experience it doesn't hold a candle to the 3 series. I considered and drove the TL, A4, A6, MB C class and E class, 5 series, and 3 series and looked at even more choices. It may sound cliche but there is nothing like driving a BMW to me. I ultimately opted for a near new (8 months, 7k miles old) 325i because at $26k fully loaded it represented the best value to me. The only performance this car lacks is quickness, which I do miss, but for everything else I am as happy as a pig in mud eveytime I slip behind the wheel.

I did not buy a BMW for the emblem on the hood or for what anyone else thinks (besides, a 325i is NOT going to impress anyone) I bought it because I LOVE bimmers. The TL to me just doesn't evoke the same sense of excitement/passion behind the wheel but is still a great car and I'm not bashing anyone for buying it or anything else. If you're happy that's all that matters. If you need to bash others to feel good about yourself or your car, well, maybe you aren't so happy...

ColStripe

That's funny, if you go back and actually read what I was responding to, I wasn't bashing anything. Just responding to the statement that BMW's and MB's are "the best engineered cars". I think they are excellent vehicles, I just don't think they are head and shoulders above the rest like the used to be. The field has caught up and past them in alot of cases and they have issues too (like most cars). There are no perfect vehicles yet.

I love cars period, no matter the nameplate. And btw, I love Bimmers too

vtechbrain

Its the owners I dislike!

willz822

I did not buy a BMW for the emblem on the hood or for what anyone else thinks (besides, a 325i is NOT going to impress anyone) I bought it because I LOVE bimmers. The TL to me just doesn't evoke the same sense of excitement/passion behind the wheel but is still a great car and I'm not bashing anyone for buying it or anything else. If you're happy that's all that matters. If you need to bash others to feel good about yourself or your car, well, maybe you aren't so happy...[/QUOTE]

Well said....

ngg19

Funny that you trash consumer reports now when it selected the tl over the 3 series; i imagine you did the same when CR praised the 3 series year after year. The 3 series is a nice car--little small for my tastes; backseat too tight. The better comparison is tl vs 530i. If I could find a new 530i with same features as tl with Nav for the price of the tl I would buy the bmw. But we all know that search is pointless. If you are really into performance go for the subarau wrx.

vtechbrain

BMW owners are so sensitive! Must be the pipi thing

BarryH

If anyone has an obsession with "the pipi thing" it's you. This is your third reference. Unless you have access to research I don't, there's never been a study on the correlation between penis size and car brands. I owned two Acura's and now own a BMW and a Volvo. Was my penis larger when I was an Acura owner? This is yet another thread denigrated that has nothing to do with the original topic. Of all the forums I visit, this one consistently has any brand comparison posts ending up just like this - personal, crude, off-topic, and immature. What does that say about Acura owners?

longwood

Again, I just sold my 1999 323i with sport package and bought a TL so I think I offer some perspective. I have also autocrossed for over ten years (starting with an eclipse, then two different 3 series) so I think I know a thing or two about driving.

I just got done shopping for a car and, although I had owned two straight BMW's, I considered several cars inclduing the Audi A6 and Chrysler 300 and am not wed to the marque.

Also I have a very hot wife who is younger than me and three kids, so my penis size does not seem to be an issue.

If the discussion is purely value then the TL wins over any BMW. The cost difference does not correspond to the difference in driving expierence. Buy if value was all that mattered wouldn't an Accord beat the TL?

Can the TL "blow the doors off a 3series"? In a straight line yes, but if that was the only test get a Mustang and save 10k. I will point out that the TL has the power advantage only at higer revs, thus negating the difference in most driving.

If value and straight line speed are the main criteria the Chrysler 300 is the winner. But I have a feeling that many of the people who declare that BMW are all about fake status would not be caught dead in a Chrysler.

If you consider the best "car" as opposed to the best "value," I would take a BMW. I had to consider value and rear seat room and bought a TL.

When driving the car quickly, the BMW is more stable and secure at the limit. This is a simple seat of the pants observation from back to back driving. This stability and feeling of being "planted" allows one to drive faster with more confidence. The main factors for this are the real wheel drive, less body roll, and frankly better seats. (anyone else think the TL seats are to flat for spirited driving?)

The TL has many nice features, but as my earlier post points out it also lacks several features that are standard on every BMW and have been for years. Ones own priorites can decide which are more important.

My point remains, however, that if I had no children to stick in the back seat I would still be driving a BMW. My two bimmers each had over 130k miles with no major problems and were rock solid when sold, despite my driving them really hard at every oppertunity. They each provided excellent returns when sold.

No car buying decision can be made by ordinary people without taking value into consideration. The BMW is simply more fun to drive fast, and for me that return for my dollar would be worth it but for the lack of rear seat room. In five years or so when it is time for a new car that may change but that is the world as it stands today.

I read this thread hoping to help me with buyers remorse but it seems to only have reinforced it.

dcarlinf1

I figured that someone would point out the V6/I6 thing. I was thinking it might be an inline 6 because I know the 3 series engines are. But, I wasn't sure and wasn't interesed in researching it before I posted. Hyuk!! My point stands though :blaze:

Love the bimmers, just can't justify the price, so I drive a TL. If price wasn't a factor, I'd be driving an FW26 or better yet an MP4-19!!! You bimmer drivers know what I'm talking about. McLaren is about to overtake Williams in the constructors championship. Meanwhile, BAR has 'em both shaking in their boots.

F23A4

This is where he says, "oh! but that's different". Rule #1: Praise for Japanese vehicles should be limited to Honda Motor Company products.

JN99

No, this is where I say that I stand by what I said. I believe CR is biased towards Japanese cars and always have believed it. The proof is in their ratings of the buggy 2003 350z, and the not quite as, but still buggy 2004 TL.

Everyone knows first year cars are subject to more than their fair share of problems but CR seems to choose to ignore this.

Of course, we all know the 3 series is worthy of any praise, and so yeah CR would have been spot on in that case :P

Casper42

Interesting read.

You people on here arguing just like the sissies on the bimmer forums the OP Linked to.

I have never driven a BMW, and I'm sure they are great cars, but those PEOPLE on that forum are a joke.

The best part was where the one guy tries to say "Its the first Model Year for this design, You cant expect ALL the bells and whistles to work."
You mean like the NAVI, BT, etc etc in the 2004 TL? Oh, which happened to be the First MY for the new design.

numexbigjim

Your belief that CR is biased towards Japanese cars seems to resonate with you because of its "rating of the buggy 2003 350z..." Lets see what CR actually said about the 350Z:

"The 350Z two-seater revives Nissan's now-classic Z series of sports cars that started its dynasty in the early 1970s, when Nissan was still called Datsun. The new car shares mechanical components with the Infiniti G35, including a wonderfully strong and smooth V6. Acceleration is very quick, and fuel economy is respectable. The six-speed manual shifter feels slightly notchy. Handling is fairly agile but less so than the Mazda RX-8. The ride is harsh and uncomfortable.Tire and road noise are pronounced. Rear visibility is poor. Interior fit and finish is disappointing. A convertible with a power-operated top is also available. "

This quote is direct from CR's website, and is hardly an enthusiastic endorsement (although the car is recomended).

If, indeed CR is biased towards Japanese cars, it is not unfairly biased, which is really the point. After all, as stated earlier, CR had the BMW 330 at the pinnacle of its class until it was dethroned by the TL this year. Further, until this year, the BMW 530 was, in the words of CR, "the best car we have ever tested." Of course, the TL is rated ahead of the new 530 this year.

My observation is that CR gives BMW its "props" when BMW is so entitled. It just so happens that this year, it is the TL, and not the 3 or 5 series, which has earned the entitlement.

DarkZ

BMW is all about PIMP, but i guess the TL beats the all the cars in the same model lines this year. screw the BMW, and thats why i choosed TL over M3 this year =).

btw, the new M3 couldnt even catch up my 300zxTT anyways, its good to have a TL in my garage..

VQ35DE

I take it your Z32 TT isnt stock cause a well driven E46 M3 should take down a stock Z32.

1SICKLEX

Sigh. TL engineers stated they CHASED BMW in their design. Hell most car companies the past 8 years have a car or two if not more in their lineups that mimics BMW.

And a new M3 would tear a 300ZXTT a new one. Seriously.

Yes it is good to have a TL in the garage.

vtechbrain

Since BMW ownwers are incensed when their pipi is made reference to, I will refer to it for the fourth time!
As we all know the length of the pipi is not the key to happiness. The important point is how satisfied your psyche is with your pipi regardless of length. Therefore, the owner of a 745i with a penile length of seven inches will demonstrate penis envy at the guy with a TL and a penile length of 5 inches since the TL's owner's navigation system works perfectly every time but the Bimmer's I-drive is conked out again. So it is then that a guy with a measurable advantage in pipi length feels inadequate compared to a guy with a smaller pipi but a BETTER CAR. Now you understand vtechbrain's corollary to Freuds Electra complex

1SICKLEX

Dude that was hilarious.

vp911

LMFAO HA HA

JN99

This might be relevant if I had commented on CR's reviews. As you can see from reading my posts, however, I commented on their ratings. With the 350z the ratings don't reflect the sentiment of the review (another problem with CR IMO) and are simply not reflective of the quality and reliability of this car.